Pre-schooler skills+
Dalene Mactier
BlankHi All
Someone pointed me to this list of skills to be mastered by 2, 3 and 4 year olds. I would love to hear other people's opinion on it. Personally I think the Phonics, Writing and ARithmetic skills lists are a bit too advanced for my liking. My almost four year old is not even close to mastering it.
Here are the lists
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Forest/2468/skillslist.html
Dalene
http://geocities.com/mactiers
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Someone pointed me to this list of skills to be mastered by 2, 3 and 4 year olds. I would love to hear other people's opinion on it. Personally I think the Phonics, Writing and ARithmetic skills lists are a bit too advanced for my liking. My almost four year old is not even close to mastering it.
Here are the lists
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Forest/2468/skillslist.html
Dalene
http://geocities.com/mactiers
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I don't think these lists were meant to be absolutes. Two of my
children have "met" these goals, one is too young (just 2) though
probably not far off from meeting the two year list, and one who was
a "late bloomer".
With any list you will have to take into account the maturity level
(and I don't mean this snidely), hand/eye coordination level, and
physical maturity of each individual child. Some kids are late
walkers (or the reverse), some kids are late talkers (or the
reverse), and some kids just don't work on the same schedule as your
average list of base "norms." Look at the childhood of such figures
as Einstein and Thomas Edison. They were both, without a doubt,
genuises in their fields but at the same time were late bloomers in
that their school teachers and others in general considered their
intelligence to be substandard.
I wouldn't consider there to be a problem unless you child has met
NONE of these basic steps by the age of about four or five. Then I
would look to see if they have a learning challenge or their learning
style is conflicting with your method of educating them.
While I know this is a unschooling list and some people are really
hot for this .... their are children with whom this method/lifestyle
is not maximumly effective. A parent may be a complete unschooler in
approach to life and education, but that does not necessarily follow
that their child will be.
If you little one is only 4, I would just give them some time. My
son was a reluctant reader and it took some real work on both our
parts to get him past this absolutely necesary hurdle and help him to
develop the must-have skill of reading. He enjoys it now, but he
didn't when he first started.
Someone once said "timing is everything" and you can't "rush the
cook." Same is true with kids, things will eventually click in ...
but maybe not "on schedule."
Kathy
children have "met" these goals, one is too young (just 2) though
probably not far off from meeting the two year list, and one who was
a "late bloomer".
With any list you will have to take into account the maturity level
(and I don't mean this snidely), hand/eye coordination level, and
physical maturity of each individual child. Some kids are late
walkers (or the reverse), some kids are late talkers (or the
reverse), and some kids just don't work on the same schedule as your
average list of base "norms." Look at the childhood of such figures
as Einstein and Thomas Edison. They were both, without a doubt,
genuises in their fields but at the same time were late bloomers in
that their school teachers and others in general considered their
intelligence to be substandard.
I wouldn't consider there to be a problem unless you child has met
NONE of these basic steps by the age of about four or five. Then I
would look to see if they have a learning challenge or their learning
style is conflicting with your method of educating them.
While I know this is a unschooling list and some people are really
hot for this .... their are children with whom this method/lifestyle
is not maximumly effective. A parent may be a complete unschooler in
approach to life and education, but that does not necessarily follow
that their child will be.
If you little one is only 4, I would just give them some time. My
son was a reluctant reader and it took some real work on both our
parts to get him past this absolutely necesary hurdle and help him to
develop the must-have skill of reading. He enjoys it now, but he
didn't when he first started.
Someone once said "timing is everything" and you can't "rush the
cook." Same is true with kids, things will eventually click in ...
but maybe not "on schedule."
Kathy
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Dalene Mactier" <Mactier@b...> wrote:
> BlankHi All
>
> Someone pointed me to this list of skills to be mastered by 2, 3
and 4 year olds. I would love to hear other people's opinion on it.
Personally I think the Phonics, Writing and ARithmetic skills lists
are a bit too advanced for my liking. My almost four year old is not
even close to mastering it.
>
> Here are the lists
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Forest/2468/skillslist.html
>
> Dalene
>
> http://geocities.com/mactiers
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Now that I have more time. Here are my thoughts
I find these skills checklists a little restrictive. In particular
what's listed under Phonetics, Writing and Arithmetic. For a child a
three to be able to count to 50 would mean that child has been taught
to count to 50 - rote learning. It would only be the exceptional
child that would have discovered 1 - 50 by himself. Most three to
four year olds only understand numbers 1 - 5. That's all they need to
understand.
BTW who is Michelle Lewis??
The same goes with reading. To be able to recognise letters, they had
to be taught that. My three-year old has no need to know the letters.
He is still perfectly happy for me reading to him. Once he shows the
desire to read to himself - he tells stories at the moment - we will
move on to phonics.
I find this list to be very un-unschooling. This list is grounded in
one school of though, but there are many others. Rudolf Steiner's
view on reading and writing is quite different.
Schooling only starts at age seven - the first year the children
learn to write - a natural extension of their artistic skills and it
is only in the second grade - would be age eight - that they start to
read.
http://www.capeannwaldorf.org/caws-faq.html
Would be interesting to hear other people's views on this.
Dalene
I find these skills checklists a little restrictive. In particular
what's listed under Phonetics, Writing and Arithmetic. For a child a
three to be able to count to 50 would mean that child has been taught
to count to 50 - rote learning. It would only be the exceptional
child that would have discovered 1 - 50 by himself. Most three to
four year olds only understand numbers 1 - 5. That's all they need to
understand.
BTW who is Michelle Lewis??
The same goes with reading. To be able to recognise letters, they had
to be taught that. My three-year old has no need to know the letters.
He is still perfectly happy for me reading to him. Once he shows the
desire to read to himself - he tells stories at the moment - we will
move on to phonics.
I find this list to be very un-unschooling. This list is grounded in
one school of though, but there are many others. Rudolf Steiner's
view on reading and writing is quite different.
Schooling only starts at age seven - the first year the children
learn to write - a natural extension of their artistic skills and it
is only in the second grade - would be age eight - that they start to
read.
http://www.capeannwaldorf.org/caws-faq.html
Would be interesting to hear other people's views on this.
Dalene
Angela
I think these lists have little to do with unschooling. Unschooling is
learning things on your own timetable, not someone elses. Who cares what
other kids are doing or should be able to do. As long as you see that your
child is inquisitive and loves life and learning does it matter at what age
they learn to count to 50 or recognize letters. Just my ever so
non-judgemental opinion. :-)
Angela in Maine
Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
learning things on your own timetable, not someone elses. Who cares what
other kids are doing or should be able to do. As long as you see that your
child is inquisitive and loves life and learning does it matter at what age
they learn to count to 50 or recognize letters. Just my ever so
non-judgemental opinion. :-)
Angela in Maine
Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
scrunchy
This is said very well. Thank You. :)
Norma
Angela wrote:
Norma
Angela wrote:
> I think these lists have little to do with unschooling. Unschooling[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> is
> learning things on your own timetable, not someone elses. Who cares
> what
> other kids are doing or should be able to do. As long as you see that
> your
> child is inquisitive and loves life and learning does it matter at
> what age
> they learn to count to 50 or recognize letters. Just my ever so
> non-judgemental opinion. :-)
>
> Angela in Maine
> Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
> www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
Angela I agree with what you are saying, but do you never wonder if
you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
enough??
I have a very inquisitive little boy that loves learning new thing,
but he has no time for any of the traditional intellectual activities
like writing or drawing people. And even though I feel confident on
most days that he is doing aok, there is the odd day that I doubt
myself.
Dalene
you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
enough??
I have a very inquisitive little boy that loves learning new thing,
but he has no time for any of the traditional intellectual activities
like writing or drawing people. And even though I feel confident on
most days that he is doing aok, there is the odd day that I doubt
myself.
Dalene
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Angela" <unschooling@c...> wrote:
> I think these lists have little to do with unschooling.
Unschooling is
> learning things on your own timetable, not someone elses. Who
cares what
> other kids are doing or should be able to do. As long as you see
that your
> child is inquisitive and loves life and learning does it matter at
what age
> they learn to count to 50 or recognize letters. Just my ever so
> non-judgemental opinion. :-)
>
> Angela in Maine
> Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
> www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A
Diane,
Welcome to my world...on some days.... Ha, ha
Life, I guess varies... yes, it does.
Some day we feel like "QUEEN MOTHER, and other....NOT!"
Ann
Mactier@... wrote:
Welcome to my world...on some days.... Ha, ha
Life, I guess varies... yes, it does.
Some day we feel like "QUEEN MOTHER, and other....NOT!"
Ann
Mactier@... wrote:
> Angela I agree with what you are saying, but do you never wonder if
> you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
> enough??
>
> I have a very inquisitive little boy that loves learning new thing,
> but he has no time for any of the traditional intellectual activities
> like writing or drawing people. And even though I feel confident on
> most days that he is doing aok, there is the odd day that I doubt
> myself.
>
> Dalene
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Angela" <unschooling@c...> wrote:
> > I think these lists have little to do with unschooling.
> Unschooling is
> > learning things on your own timetable, not someone elses. Who
> cares what
> > other kids are doing or should be able to do. As long as you see
> that your
> > child is inquisitive and loves life and learning does it matter at
> what age
> > they learn to count to 50 or recognize letters. Just my ever so
> > non-judgemental opinion. :-)
> >
> > Angela in Maine
> > Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
> > www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
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>
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LisaBugg
I found this under the two year old section
<<<< Holds a crayon correctly when coloring.>>>>
I'm sort of hoping Michele Lewis is not on our list, because this is pure
bs. I have had 4 2yr olds pass through my home and there's no way you can
say a *2* year old needs to be able to do this. And who gets to define
correctly? When in that second year is this a supposed need? 3 days after
the birthday when they are still babies? OR the day before they turn 3 and
you're missing that baby face you knew so well? We won't even go into the
wide maturation differences inherent in boys and girls. I had one son that
was a "baby" until shortly after his 4th birthday. He didn't lose his baby
face, nor his baby ways until then. He wasn't and isn't 'slow', he's just
himself.. He didn't speak until 4ish either, and then he spoke in complete,
complicated sentences. He hated to color or draw until about the age of 8
and just last week, at now 11, he asked me for a drawing class.
I read through the rest of the list and realized that what I disliked most
about the infomation there was the tone in which things were presented. I
offered the children all of these things and more, I just didn't fret over
the idea of having them master or prove the skills. I trusted that they
would want to write and color and sing and waxh hands and learn to read. I
trusted their inate ability to love me and trust me and talk to me.
She also thinks 4 year olds shoud understand the concept of sin and
forgivness. I know learned adults who disagree on these concepts. I know
Christians and Jews who hold diametrically opposed definitions of these
concepts. 4 year olds shouldn't even know the word sin, IMNSHO.
i didn't think much of the site to tell you the truth.
Lisa
Original Message -----
From: "Dalene Mactier" <Mactier@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:16 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Pre-schooler skills+
think the Phonics, Writing and ARithmetic skills lists are a bit too
advanced for my liking. My almost four year old is not even close to
mastering it.
<<<< Holds a crayon correctly when coloring.>>>>
I'm sort of hoping Michele Lewis is not on our list, because this is pure
bs. I have had 4 2yr olds pass through my home and there's no way you can
say a *2* year old needs to be able to do this. And who gets to define
correctly? When in that second year is this a supposed need? 3 days after
the birthday when they are still babies? OR the day before they turn 3 and
you're missing that baby face you knew so well? We won't even go into the
wide maturation differences inherent in boys and girls. I had one son that
was a "baby" until shortly after his 4th birthday. He didn't lose his baby
face, nor his baby ways until then. He wasn't and isn't 'slow', he's just
himself.. He didn't speak until 4ish either, and then he spoke in complete,
complicated sentences. He hated to color or draw until about the age of 8
and just last week, at now 11, he asked me for a drawing class.
I read through the rest of the list and realized that what I disliked most
about the infomation there was the tone in which things were presented. I
offered the children all of these things and more, I just didn't fret over
the idea of having them master or prove the skills. I trusted that they
would want to write and color and sing and waxh hands and learn to read. I
trusted their inate ability to love me and trust me and talk to me.
She also thinks 4 year olds shoud understand the concept of sin and
forgivness. I know learned adults who disagree on these concepts. I know
Christians and Jews who hold diametrically opposed definitions of these
concepts. 4 year olds shouldn't even know the word sin, IMNSHO.
i didn't think much of the site to tell you the truth.
Lisa
Original Message -----
From: "Dalene Mactier" <Mactier@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:16 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Pre-schooler skills+
> BlankHi Allyear olds. I would love to hear other people's opinion on it. Personally I
>
> Someone pointed me to this list of skills to be mastered by 2, 3 and 4
think the Phonics, Writing and ARithmetic skills lists are a bit too
advanced for my liking. My almost four year old is not even close to
mastering it.
>
> Here are the lists
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Forest/2468/skillslist.html
>
> Dalene
>
> http://geocities.com/mactiers
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Angela
Dalene,
Occasionally I have a 5 minute worry spell( every few months), esp after
listening to some public school kids talk about what they are learning. But
MOST days and Most of the time I am completely confident in unschooling. Of
course it does help that my kids love to draw, write, be read to, ask a
million questions, etc. I would like to think though that all kids are
inquisitive in at least one area where you could see that they are learning.
I can't know as I have only ever had my own kids. I think by answering
their questions all the time, I am encouraging them to ask more. Does that
make sense? Some parents I see do not really answer their kids questions,
they just blow them off esp. if they don't know the answer. In finding the
answer to one question we often go off on tangents about something related
by the children's choice.....
Angela in Maine
Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
Angela I agree with what you are saying, but do you never wonder if
you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
enough??
I have a very inquisitive little boy that loves learning new thing,
but he has no time for any of the traditional intellectual activities
like writing or drawing people. And even though I feel confident on
most days that he is doing aok, there is the odd day that I doubt
myself.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Occasionally I have a 5 minute worry spell( every few months), esp after
listening to some public school kids talk about what they are learning. But
MOST days and Most of the time I am completely confident in unschooling. Of
course it does help that my kids love to draw, write, be read to, ask a
million questions, etc. I would like to think though that all kids are
inquisitive in at least one area where you could see that they are learning.
I can't know as I have only ever had my own kids. I think by answering
their questions all the time, I am encouraging them to ask more. Does that
make sense? Some parents I see do not really answer their kids questions,
they just blow them off esp. if they don't know the answer. In finding the
answer to one question we often go off on tangents about something related
by the children's choice.....
Angela in Maine
Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
Angela I agree with what you are saying, but do you never wonder if
you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
enough??
I have a very inquisitive little boy that loves learning new thing,
but he has no time for any of the traditional intellectual activities
like writing or drawing people. And even though I feel confident on
most days that he is doing aok, there is the odd day that I doubt
myself.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/01 3:40:49 PM, mamkmm2@... writes:
<< If you little one is only 4, I would just give them some time. My
son was a reluctant reader and it took some real work on both our
parts to get him past this absolutely necesary hurdle and help him to
develop the must-have skill of reading. He enjoys it now, but he
didn't when he first started. >>
It took no real work on anyone's part for Kirby and Marty to be reading
fluently. What it took was waiting, which is harder for some people than
hard work!
If your little one is only four, I'd give him five or six years before
worrying. Meantime, fill your house and his life with input of all
sorts--sound, light, stories, materials for art and science, textures,
toys... and he will learn.
Kirby and Marty enjoyed reading when they first started. They were calm
about not reading. Because they had never been branded failures or "behind"
they were very matter of fact about needing to ask others (even younger kids)
to read things when they were playing games or following instructions to make
something. They're still calm now when they help others read, and they're
VERY patient with others' learning to spell and write. Marty was flamed by
someone online once when he was younger and was spelling horribly. The guy
had written something like "You spell like you've never been to school" or
"You spell like a kid" (or both) and Marty showed it to me and laughed.
Holly's nine. I had thought, in my school-earned prejudice, that because
she's a girl she would have read sooner. Nope. I'm surprised, but it's
nothing to make a big deal about. She reads easy stuff, and signs, but she
doesn't read fluently in all-text situations. I have no doubt at all that
she will. And she's never cried in frustration about it, nor had anyone
saying "You should know that word" or any of the things so many of us (and
some of our kids) went through with reading lessons.
Sandra
<< If you little one is only 4, I would just give them some time. My
son was a reluctant reader and it took some real work on both our
parts to get him past this absolutely necesary hurdle and help him to
develop the must-have skill of reading. He enjoys it now, but he
didn't when he first started. >>
It took no real work on anyone's part for Kirby and Marty to be reading
fluently. What it took was waiting, which is harder for some people than
hard work!
If your little one is only four, I'd give him five or six years before
worrying. Meantime, fill your house and his life with input of all
sorts--sound, light, stories, materials for art and science, textures,
toys... and he will learn.
Kirby and Marty enjoyed reading when they first started. They were calm
about not reading. Because they had never been branded failures or "behind"
they were very matter of fact about needing to ask others (even younger kids)
to read things when they were playing games or following instructions to make
something. They're still calm now when they help others read, and they're
VERY patient with others' learning to spell and write. Marty was flamed by
someone online once when he was younger and was spelling horribly. The guy
had written something like "You spell like you've never been to school" or
"You spell like a kid" (or both) and Marty showed it to me and laughed.
Holly's nine. I had thought, in my school-earned prejudice, that because
she's a girl she would have read sooner. Nope. I'm surprised, but it's
nothing to make a big deal about. She reads easy stuff, and signs, but she
doesn't read fluently in all-text situations. I have no doubt at all that
she will. And she's never cried in frustration about it, nor had anyone
saying "You should know that word" or any of the things so many of us (and
some of our kids) went through with reading lessons.
Sandra
[email protected]
I think this is every mother's worry -- I imagine I'll be having these
thoughts as they go off to college or Spain (I always think Spain sounds
romantic!).
And this reminds me of the mom I sat next to the other day. She was intent on
reading/teaching her son how to count from one of those pretty picture books
with, you know, 1 car, 2 balls, 3 trees, etc. He was NOT interested. He
wanted to play with the pretzels he had brought -- they were these cool
square/waffle ones.
But she didn't pick up on his clues. He couldn't very well tell her,
"Mother, at this time, I am going to focus on chewing and playing with these
pretzels and will address counting later."
She's a nice mom. I have talked with her. She cares. She's trying. But
she has a set notion of what her son should be doing and that's it.
It sounds to me (fwiw) like you are doing fine and all of these "academic"
(coloring is academic?) things will come when they need to.
Nance
thoughts as they go off to college or Spain (I always think Spain sounds
romantic!).
And this reminds me of the mom I sat next to the other day. She was intent on
reading/teaching her son how to count from one of those pretty picture books
with, you know, 1 car, 2 balls, 3 trees, etc. He was NOT interested. He
wanted to play with the pretzels he had brought -- they were these cool
square/waffle ones.
But she didn't pick up on his clues. He couldn't very well tell her,
"Mother, at this time, I am going to focus on chewing and playing with these
pretzels and will address counting later."
She's a nice mom. I have talked with her. She cares. She's trying. But
she has a set notion of what her son should be doing and that's it.
It sounds to me (fwiw) like you are doing fine and all of these "academic"
(coloring is academic?) things will come when they need to.
Nance
> Mactier@... wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > Angela I agree with what you are saying, but do you never wonder if
> > you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
> > enough??
> >
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/01 7:43:54 AM, marbleface@... writes:
<< you know, 1 car, 2 balls, 3 trees, etc. He was NOT interested. He
wanted to play with the pretzels he had brought >>
We used to play with numbers with kid-food, like cheerios or little crackers.
Pretzels would be perfect for it. I would ask the kid for two crackers.
"May I have two crackers please?" and if they counted wrong it didn't matter.
Then I'd ask them how many they wanted and they'd say a number (this for
really little kids who might not yet know number names) and we'd just go back
and forth until one of us was tired.
Or making patterns with dry food and then eating it.
Or M&Ms.
Or carrot sticks.
It's amazing how book-worshiping some people are. I probably used to be
myself. I think I gather books because I felt book deprived as a child.
Seriously.
Sandra
---------------------------------------
<< you know, 1 car, 2 balls, 3 trees, etc. He was NOT interested. He
wanted to play with the pretzels he had brought >>
We used to play with numbers with kid-food, like cheerios or little crackers.
Pretzels would be perfect for it. I would ask the kid for two crackers.
"May I have two crackers please?" and if they counted wrong it didn't matter.
Then I'd ask them how many they wanted and they'd say a number (this for
really little kids who might not yet know number names) and we'd just go back
and forth until one of us was tired.
Or making patterns with dry food and then eating it.
Or M&Ms.
Or carrot sticks.
It's amazing how book-worshiping some people are. I probably used to be
myself. I think I gather books because I felt book deprived as a child.
Seriously.
Sandra
---------------------------------------
dawn
the whole issue of "coloring" really amuses me. My boyz HATE to color and
really don't do much drawing. Now, in school, this would be a major
issue, yk? But in real life, honestly? I can't think of the last time I
colored or drew something that wasn't prompted by one of them.....lets
see......two years ago, I colored in a coloring book while sitting bored
at a bake sale table.......i've drawn a few pokeballs for birthday
decorations.......uh.......i draw diagrams for my composition students on
occassion to convey a specific concept........uh........when i need things
drawn, i ask my friend the artist who enjoys doing it. Guess I'd be a
preschool failure. Oh, and I have never ever held my pencil or crayon
"right", and it was made veryclear to me that I was doing it wrong many
times in my childhood, but......well......it hasn't held me back at
all. I have managed to acquire several college degrees and more than
enough extraneous credits for a PhD, all without much effort, eventhough i
hold my pencil wrong, don't spell well, (never use caps if i have a baby
on my lap), and don't like to color or draw.
dawn h-s
**********
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on
occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."-- James D. Nicoll
**********
really don't do much drawing. Now, in school, this would be a major
issue, yk? But in real life, honestly? I can't think of the last time I
colored or drew something that wasn't prompted by one of them.....lets
see......two years ago, I colored in a coloring book while sitting bored
at a bake sale table.......i've drawn a few pokeballs for birthday
decorations.......uh.......i draw diagrams for my composition students on
occassion to convey a specific concept........uh........when i need things
drawn, i ask my friend the artist who enjoys doing it. Guess I'd be a
preschool failure. Oh, and I have never ever held my pencil or crayon
"right", and it was made veryclear to me that I was doing it wrong many
times in my childhood, but......well......it hasn't held me back at
all. I have managed to acquire several college degrees and more than
enough extraneous credits for a PhD, all without much effort, eventhough i
hold my pencil wrong, don't spell well, (never use caps if i have a baby
on my lap), and don't like to color or draw.
dawn h-s
**********
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow
words; on
occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them
unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."-- James D. Nicoll
**********
[email protected]
Coloring is "academic" because it develops pencil (etc.) control. And without
that, how are they going to do worksheets?
:-) Diane
that, how are they going to do worksheets?
:-) Diane
> It sounds to me (fwiw) like you are doing fine and all of these "academic"
> (coloring is academic?) things will come when they need to.
[email protected]
In a message dated 05/20/2001 5:55:28 PM !!!First Boot!!!, cen46624@...
writes:
Such silliness!
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Coloring is "academic" because it develops pencil (etc.) control. AndOh -- now I get it. :)
> without
> that, how are they going to do worksheets?
>
> :-) Diane
>
>
Such silliness!
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
>I have a very inquisitive little boy that loves learning new thing,Hi, Dalene --
>but he has no time for any of the traditional intellectual activities
>like writing or drawing people. And even though I feel confident on
>most days that he is doing aok, there is the odd day that I doubt
>myself.
My 7yob reads fluently and doesn't write a lick. I mean if you had taken
all the letters and words he has ever written it would be about as long as
my first sentence, definitely shorter than this second sentence.
I accept this as normal for him and focus on what he is enthusiastic about.
I'm pretty confident that he will grow out of it. (or learn to type) My
husband has torturous handwriting. I know he suffered and struggled in
school with this. That helps me understand that pushing my son in this
area isn't likely to have a happy outcome.
Schools make kids write so that their learning can be shown on paper,
collected and batch-processed for grading. The age that writing is taught
in schools is probably selected for the school's convenience, not
necessarily scheduled at the best age for kids to learn.
End of rant,
Betsy :-)
P.S. My son also almost never draws, which reinforces my belief that
holding the pencil/crayon is the problem.
Betsy Hill
>Kirby and Marty enjoyed reading when they first started. They were calm"behind"
>about not reading. Because they had never been branded failures or
The concept of "behind" is such an ugly, heavy burden to carry. I love
unschooling because we can leave "behind" behind.
I've just subcribed to the Flylady housekeeping list. One of the very
empowering messages she sends out with her repeated emails is "You are
never behind." (And she means on your housework, what a concept.) It's a
wonderful relief to be told that! (If you believe it.) Flipside: it must
be horrible to be told "You are behind."
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/01 12:20:34 PM, marbleface@... writes:
<< > Coloring is "academic" because it develops pencil (etc.) control. And
Small motor skills.
Large motor skill involves balancing on a beam, balancing on one foot,
walking in a straight line, picking things up and carrying them, jumping--the
things most primates can learn to do on their own, but that preschool
teachers TEACH (and grade).
Small motor skills are taught and graded with the aid of scissors,
sorting-stuff, glueing crafts junk, working klunky wooden jigsaw puzzles that
schools pay $15 or $20 apiece for, stacking things up, nesting things.
Few of us are qualified to develop a curriculum to assure that those skills
are learned in the proper order and thoroughly within the proper window of
opportunity.
[Yes, I know this is bullshit, but shhhhhhh.....
apparently lots of people with Master's degrees and PhDs think the emperor
could not have put on those new clothes and walked around without having
learned small and large motor skills in school.]
Sandra, former teacher, current bullshit detector
<< > Coloring is "academic" because it develops pencil (etc.) control. And
> withoutHECK YES!
> that, how are they going to do worksheets? >>
Small motor skills.
Large motor skill involves balancing on a beam, balancing on one foot,
walking in a straight line, picking things up and carrying them, jumping--the
things most primates can learn to do on their own, but that preschool
teachers TEACH (and grade).
Small motor skills are taught and graded with the aid of scissors,
sorting-stuff, glueing crafts junk, working klunky wooden jigsaw puzzles that
schools pay $15 or $20 apiece for, stacking things up, nesting things.
Few of us are qualified to develop a curriculum to assure that those skills
are learned in the proper order and thoroughly within the proper window of
opportunity.
[Yes, I know this is bullshit, but shhhhhhh.....
apparently lots of people with Master's degrees and PhDs think the emperor
could not have put on those new clothes and walked around without having
learned small and large motor skills in school.]
Sandra, former teacher, current bullshit detector
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/01 12:52:35 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Schools make kids write so that their learning can be shown on paper,
collected and batch-processed for grading. The age that writing is taught
in schools is probably selected for the school's convenience, not
necessarily scheduled at the best age for kids to learn. >>
AMEN.
Same with reading. Kids read in school so they can read the directions, so
they can do busy work, so they can read-the-chapter-and-answer-the-questions
and it can be called science or social studies. It's gross. It's not
learning so much as it is something time-consuming to do while they're
sitting in rows waiting for the bell to ring, so parents can go to work and
teachers can get paychecks.
If kids were left to learn to read late, teachers would have to really
communicate with them a lot, and read to them, and tell them how to do
things. GROSS (for teachers).
So they are herded through the read-now chute, and those who balk are branded
"slow" and "non-reader" and eventually a goodly number of them end up held
back or in special ed, and because of reading.
It's a horror show paid for by taxpayers.
I was afraid and embarrassed (afraid of in-laws) when my first child wasn't
reading at seven, and so he had two and a half reading-sessions (with me)
which traumatized us both, and I never ever did that again. Now my in-laws
are afraid of me, and my two older kids read. Kirby was nine when it kicked
in, and I credit Nintendo Power magazine and the player's guide for Super
Mario above all else.
Marty was ten, and his epiphany came with the player's guide to
Something-of-Fire (he's not here to ask), which he took apart and put into
plastic sheet-protectors in an old cloth-covered three ring binder and he
decorated with markers. He was totally enamored of that home-bound player's
guide and of his map-reading (and eventually word-reading) concerning that
game.
Now Kirby and Marty are online for hours most days, doing role-playing games,
writing in real-time (no edits, no corrections) to people older than they
are, same age, younger, it doesn't matter. What they're writing is responded
to by real people, in real time.
It's COOL!
Holly gets frustrated sometimes and will read to me and spell words she
doesn't know, and I'll tell her why a word is weird or whatever, but she
loses interest quickly, which is fine. I think one of these days before long
it will kick in and she'll be fluent enough to to notice as she learns other
stuff gradually and perfects it all.
Sandra
<< Schools make kids write so that their learning can be shown on paper,
collected and batch-processed for grading. The age that writing is taught
in schools is probably selected for the school's convenience, not
necessarily scheduled at the best age for kids to learn. >>
AMEN.
Same with reading. Kids read in school so they can read the directions, so
they can do busy work, so they can read-the-chapter-and-answer-the-questions
and it can be called science or social studies. It's gross. It's not
learning so much as it is something time-consuming to do while they're
sitting in rows waiting for the bell to ring, so parents can go to work and
teachers can get paychecks.
If kids were left to learn to read late, teachers would have to really
communicate with them a lot, and read to them, and tell them how to do
things. GROSS (for teachers).
So they are herded through the read-now chute, and those who balk are branded
"slow" and "non-reader" and eventually a goodly number of them end up held
back or in special ed, and because of reading.
It's a horror show paid for by taxpayers.
I was afraid and embarrassed (afraid of in-laws) when my first child wasn't
reading at seven, and so he had two and a half reading-sessions (with me)
which traumatized us both, and I never ever did that again. Now my in-laws
are afraid of me, and my two older kids read. Kirby was nine when it kicked
in, and I credit Nintendo Power magazine and the player's guide for Super
Mario above all else.
Marty was ten, and his epiphany came with the player's guide to
Something-of-Fire (he's not here to ask), which he took apart and put into
plastic sheet-protectors in an old cloth-covered three ring binder and he
decorated with markers. He was totally enamored of that home-bound player's
guide and of his map-reading (and eventually word-reading) concerning that
game.
Now Kirby and Marty are online for hours most days, doing role-playing games,
writing in real-time (no edits, no corrections) to people older than they
are, same age, younger, it doesn't matter. What they're writing is responded
to by real people, in real time.
It's COOL!
Holly gets frustrated sometimes and will read to me and spell words she
doesn't know, and I'll tell her why a word is weird or whatever, but she
loses interest quickly, which is fine. I think one of these days before long
it will kick in and she'll be fluent enough to to notice as she learns other
stuff gradually and perfects it all.
Sandra
Johanna
Dalene, how old is your boy? many younger boys are so full fo wiggle, they don't want to sit still and write or draw.
Thats ok. now if you are talking about a thirteen yo who has never written, I would have some concern. I think the PS system has caused so much damage that many people think earlier basic skills are the answer. Some boys aren't ready to write and read till later. Raymond and Dorothy Moore wrote a book called "Better Late than Early" (I believe that is the title) and they talk about this issue well.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
Thats ok. now if you are talking about a thirteen yo who has never written, I would have some concern. I think the PS system has caused so much damage that many people think earlier basic skills are the answer. Some boys aren't ready to write and read till later. Raymond and Dorothy Moore wrote a book called "Better Late than Early" (I believe that is the title) and they talk about this issue well.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: Mactier@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 11:20 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Pre-schooler skills+
Angela I agree with what you are saying, but do you never wonder if
you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
enough??
I have a very inquisitive little boy that loves learning new thing,
but he has no time for any of the traditional intellectual activities
like writing or drawing people. And even though I feel confident on
most days that he is doing aok, there is the odd day that I doubt
myself.
Dalene
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Angela" <unschooling@c...> wrote:
> I think these lists have little to do with unschooling.
Unschooling is
> learning things on your own timetable, not someone elses. Who
cares what
> other kids are doing or should be able to do. As long as you see
that your
> child is inquisitive and loves life and learning does it matter at
what age
> they learn to count to 50 or recognize letters. Just my ever so
> non-judgemental opinion. :-)
>
> Angela in Maine
> Unschooling mom to two beautiful daughters.
> www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Oh YES, I'm remembering on teacher, otherwise a wonderful person, who made
us, in torturous fourth-grade cursive, copy the question as well as answering
it.
I'll type anything, but don't ask me to handwrite! I even put envelopes
through the printer if I can.
:-) Diane
us, in torturous fourth-grade cursive, copy the question as well as answering
it.
I'll type anything, but don't ask me to handwrite! I even put envelopes
through the printer if I can.
:-) Diane
> Are hideous flashbacks a normal part of the deschooling process? I'm
> thinking, YES, one has to remember the reality, not the happy snow job, in
> order to let it go of schooling.
Betsy Hill
>Same with reading. Kids read in school so they can read the directions,so
>they can do busy work, so they can read-the-chapter-and-answer-the-AMEN. Just reading your words above made me roll my eyes and gag
>questions
>and it can be called science or social studies. It's gross.
remembering the questions at the ends of the tiresome chapters.
Are hideous flashbacks a normal part of the deschooling process? I'm
thinking, YES, one has to remember the reality, not the happy snow job, in
order to let it go of schooling.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/19/01 10:20:50 PM, Mactier@... writes:
<< but do you never wonder if
you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
enough?? >>
When I see my kids around other kids I'm proud of their ability to get along,
to make the situation more fun, to help others, and to discuss the whole
thing in interesting and intelligent ways with me afterward. When I hug them
and feel them being peaceful and hopeful, not jittery and scared, I'm
confident.
Kids at school aren't "doing enough"--half or more are "behind" (and they DO
have something to be behind, unlike unschooled kids), and they get that
message with every report card, every parental visit, every "grade," and from
the other kids in and out of class. Some are "ahead." Do you think
teachers, parents and other kids give THEM peace?
Try to take the scool-thinking out of your own mind and worries, and it will
help your child.
Sandra
<< but do you never wonder if
you are doing okay?? Do you never stop to think are they doing
enough?? >>
When I see my kids around other kids I'm proud of their ability to get along,
to make the situation more fun, to help others, and to discuss the whole
thing in interesting and intelligent ways with me afterward. When I hug them
and feel them being peaceful and hopeful, not jittery and scared, I'm
confident.
Kids at school aren't "doing enough"--half or more are "behind" (and they DO
have something to be behind, unlike unschooled kids), and they get that
message with every report card, every parental visit, every "grade," and from
the other kids in and out of class. Some are "ahead." Do you think
teachers, parents and other kids give THEM peace?
Try to take the scool-thinking out of your own mind and worries, and it will
help your child.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/20/01 8:37:31 PM, saninocencio1@... writes:
<< Thats ok. now if you are talking about a thirteen yo who has never
written, I would have some concern. >>
My kids don't write by hand very well at all, but given a computer they're
off and running!
They haven't written much keeper-stuff. A bit of humor which they printed
out to save, but no essays or book reports or comparison/contrast papers <g>
(maybe that's not true... I'd have to think about it--but if they DID write
such things it would be in reponse to a question from another person who
actually wanted the answer, because they've done no "practice" writing or
drill)
Sandra
<< Thats ok. now if you are talking about a thirteen yo who has never
written, I would have some concern. >>
My kids don't write by hand very well at all, but given a computer they're
off and running!
They haven't written much keeper-stuff. A bit of humor which they printed
out to save, but no essays or book reports or comparison/contrast papers <g>
(maybe that's not true... I'd have to think about it--but if they DID write
such things it would be in reponse to a question from another person who
actually wanted the answer, because they've done no "practice" writing or
drill)
Sandra
dawn
> Thats ok. now if you are talking about a thirteen yo who has never written, I would have some concern. I think the PS system has caused so much damage that many people think earlier basic skills are the answer. Some boys aren't ready to write and read till later. Raymond and Dorothy Moore wrote a book called "Better Late than Early" (I believe that is the title) and they talk about this issue well.i asked my male college students last year if they liked or disliked or
>
>
felt neutral about the physical act of writing when they were young. In
each class, only the poet and artist said they felt neutral or positive
about it. All the rest said it was a negative experience and several said
that now that no one can MAKE them write, they were failing classes
because tehy were NOT taking notes. They weren't talking about
composing...just the physical act of making marks on paper.
dhs
Nanci Kuykendall
>I think these lists have little to do withYes, well said Angela. Who cares what some
>unschooling. Unschooling is learning things on your
>own timetable, not someone elses. Who cares
>what other kids are doing or should be able to do.
>As long as you see that your child is inquisitive and
>loves life and learning does it matter at what
>age they learn to count to 50 or recognize letters.
>Just my ever so non-judgemental opinion. :-)
>Angela in Maine
miscellaneous person thinks my child should know? If
I wanted other people to tell me and my child what to
know, and if I wanted my child to be 'keeping up with
the Jones's' on a list of expected skills, I would put
them in preschool! Or, at the very least, I would bow
to what my parents "expect" me to be doing in
discipling and raising my children, and living the
rest of my life for that matter! We meet our own
goals and follow our own dreams, and judmental and
controlling factors don't pull any strings on us.
Nanci K.
__________________________________________________
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Nanci Kuykendall
>I'm sort of hoping Michele Lewis is not on our list,............>We won't even go into the wide maturation
>because this is pure bs.
>differences >inherent in boys and girls. I had oneI have a three year old like this, who still seems
>son that was a "baby" until shortly after his 4th
>birthday. He didn't lose his baby face, nor his
>baby ways until then. He wasn't and isn't 'slow',
>he's just himself.
mostly a baby to me. His brother, on the other hand,
was and is always in such a hurry. He seemed a boy
and not a baby somewhere between 1 and 2.
>4 year olds shouldn't even know the word sin, IMNSHO.I totally agree Lisa. Of course we are not Christan
>..............I didn't think much of the site to tell
>you the truth.
>Lisa
and we don't believe in sin, so having our four year
old know and be terrorized by the concepts of sin and
forgiveness (and the not mentioned, but impossible to
disconnect from the other two, judgment) would be
awful.
Nanci K.
__________________________________________________
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Diana Tashjian
Do they mean that emotionally they are so adverse to writing that they would rather fail a class than force themselves to take notes?!
Diana Tashjian
Diana Tashjian
----- Original Message -----
From: dawn
<snip>
i asked my male college students last year if they liked or disliked or
felt neutral about the physical act of writing when they were young. In
each class, only the poet and artist said they felt neutral or positive
about it. All the rest said it was a negative experience and several said
that now that no one can MAKE them write, they were failing classes
because tehy were NOT taking notes. They weren't talking about
composing...just the physical act of making marks on paper.
dhs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dawn
On Mon, 21 May 2001, Diana Tashjian wrote:
classes do so intentionally, even if it is on a subconscious level, I
suspect. But what message I was getting from them wrt writing is that for
so many YEARS they had been hounded to write, practice writing, do
needless writing, made to feel badly if they didn't do it well, that they
would rather fail (or risk failing) a college class than take notes now
that no one is forcing them to write. They were also jealous that I would
xrox the math book my son was working out of at the time so he didn't have
to recopy problems.
> Do they mean that emotionally they are so adverse to writing that they would rather fail a class than force themselves to take notes?!I'm sure there is more to it htan that, but most of my students who fail
>
classes do so intentionally, even if it is on a subconscious level, I
suspect. But what message I was getting from them wrt writing is that for
so many YEARS they had been hounded to write, practice writing, do
needless writing, made to feel badly if they didn't do it well, that they
would rather fail (or risk failing) a college class than take notes now
that no one is forcing them to write. They were also jealous that I would
xrox the math book my son was working out of at the time so he didn't have
to recopy problems.
Gina Loree Marks
Hi...
I've learned a little about Waldorf
education...there is a large Waldorf community near
me, and I have a number of friends involved in their
school. I have to ask, though, because I have been
wondering, based on the little I've read, and the
comments made in your post...(and based on my own
experience)...what if they express interest and
ability in learning academics before they are
"supposed to" at age 7? Would the Waldorf philosophy
advise discouraging this interest? My first, and
especially my third sons, seemed to want to things
like read and write, (and math, in my 5 yr olds case)
at an early age...without any incentive from me, that
I can remember. I have just been curious about this.
I have enjoyed some of the gentle parenting methods
that the Waldorf philosphy espouses, but some is also
too rigid for me. I am, however, an advocate of the
"continuum concept" philosophy, which believes that
children learn by mimicing....and will pick up the
skills they need when it becomes relavant to them. I
have to admit, I have occasionally lost my trust in
that innate ability, but, I'm back to it...ready to
take that leap of faith into "unscooling", which is
why I'm here!
Peace,
Gina
=====
"Oh No!" Not another learning experience!" -- bumper sticker of a good friend
__________________________________________________
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I've learned a little about Waldorf
education...there is a large Waldorf community near
me, and I have a number of friends involved in their
school. I have to ask, though, because I have been
wondering, based on the little I've read, and the
comments made in your post...(and based on my own
experience)...what if they express interest and
ability in learning academics before they are
"supposed to" at age 7? Would the Waldorf philosophy
advise discouraging this interest? My first, and
especially my third sons, seemed to want to things
like read and write, (and math, in my 5 yr olds case)
at an early age...without any incentive from me, that
I can remember. I have just been curious about this.
I have enjoyed some of the gentle parenting methods
that the Waldorf philosphy espouses, but some is also
too rigid for me. I am, however, an advocate of the
"continuum concept" philosophy, which believes that
children learn by mimicing....and will pick up the
skills they need when it becomes relavant to them. I
have to admit, I have occasionally lost my trust in
that innate ability, but, I'm back to it...ready to
take that leap of faith into "unscooling", which is
why I'm here!
Peace,
Gina
=====
"Oh No!" Not another learning experience!" -- bumper sticker of a good friend
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/