MICHAEL MARTINEZ

I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even hesitate
to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
pyrotechnics, but here goes.

One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the fact that we
can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one solution is
going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various methods of
homeschooling.

The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities to
overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't heard much
on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venemously when
opinions differ.

Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for the
child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental approach to
the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is) will also
be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to extreme on
both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline, etc.)
rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.

One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about dangers (such
as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other hand,
this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of common
sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
Personally I have four children and each child requires a different tact ...
from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more strong
boundaries of behavior and consequences.

A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my opinion,
the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So, for the
sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that are
trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement this
approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil, send
your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together where
parenting issues are the topic.

There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this group and
only a very small percentage are participating in the flames; however, the
small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that there is
much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are driving
away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on how the
unschooling method has worked for them.

Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
mamkmm2@... writes:


> A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my opinion,
> the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.

But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and without
loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool. Nine years
ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool," but after
years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen repeatedly that
families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and families who
do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.

Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't encompass
all educational options on the whole planet.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

My apologies. I went and re-read the list description and it
basically told me that if I wanted info on unschooling, I'd only get
it at the website ... this list being strictly networking, etc.

I still say that some of you all are way too rough with one another
as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure this is not how you would
handle your own children or normal public conversation. This list
could be a great place to network on unschooling info ... but its not
described that way, nor has it been working that way ... so I am
bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I don't trip all over
them again <grin>.

While I might describe this as an interesting experience, its been a
bit nasty and venemously confrontational, neither of which is
something that I espouse or wish my kids to learn in their
homeschooling or home life.

Kathy

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
wrote:
> I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
hesitate
> to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> pyrotechnics, but here goes.
>
> One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the
fact that we
> can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
solution is
> going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
methods of
> homeschooling.
>
> The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities
to
> overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
heard much
> on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venemously
when
> opinions differ.
>
> Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for
the
> child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
approach to
> the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is)
will also
> be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to
extreme on
> both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
etc.)
> rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
>
> One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about
dangers (such
> as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
hand,
> this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
common
> sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
tact ...
> from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
strong
> boundaries of behavior and consequences.
>
> A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
opinion,
> the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So,
for the
> sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
are
> trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
this
> approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
send
> your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together
where
> parenting issues are the topic.
>
> There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this
group and
> only a very small percentage are participating in the flames;
however, the
> small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that
there is
> much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
driving
> away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on
how the
> unschooling method has worked for them.
>
> Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...

[email protected]

Sandra,

I do see what you are saying; however, I did say that unschooling was
a way of meeting the child's needs "no matter what those needs might
be" referring to whether the need was educational or otherwise ...
including parental issues.

And yes, I agree that unschooling requires that boundaries be
explored and concepts loosened. On the other hand, it doesn't
necessarily mean that ALL boundaries are transient and loose ALL the
time.

I successfully unschool one of my four children because that is the
method that works best with her ... based on needs and
personality ... but do not unschool the other three. On the other
hand we have set rules and consequences in this house that some would
view as authoritarian in style. So, in my personal opinion and
experience, unschooling and authoritarianism do not necessarily
preclude one another.

As for necessity of "loosening up" ... that could well describe some
of the posts to this list lately. Unschooling is not THE approach to
education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
say is patently false.

I posted that I had mistaken the description of this list and
apologized for it. I will remain on here long enough to deal with
any fall out from my original post because I feel responsible for
it. It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to bring into the
open what I felt was a serious concern. Again, my apologies.


Kathy
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> mamkmm2@p... writes:
>
>
> > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in
my opinion,
> > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.
>
> But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and
without
> loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool.
Nine years
> ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool,"
but after
> years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen
repeatedly that
> families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and
families who
> do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.
>
> Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't
encompass
> all educational options on the whole planet.
>
> Sandra

Bonnie M Paglialunga

Remember there is always the delete key. I have found that there is allot of wisdom from all these moms. Those topics that I am not interested I just hit DELETE and move on to something more helpful.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/19/2001 3:54:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mamkmm2@... writes:


> Unschooling is not THE approach to
> education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
> most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
> completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
> solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
> say is patently false.
>
> I cannot speak for anyone other than myself . . . for my family unschooling
is the only viable solution to meeting our needs. It is not a way of
educating or really even a way of learning, but a way of life, a way of being
in this world. It encompasses everything we say and do in our home and how we
approach those outside of it. At times I feel a failure at it, but then I
realize that failure is not possible, as the journey is what is important and
being able to accept all that the journey entails.

It may not be for everyone, but one might assume that unschooling is the
approach those on this list have chosen and are interested in discussing.
Email lists always go through ebbs and flows of discussing things . . . the
beauty is in letting them be whatever or wherever they are at any given
moment. . . hmmm, sounds kind of like how I describe unschooling. Go figure!
:)

lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Kathy -- I'm interested in how you define unschooling. I personally have
found unschooling to be a door that has opened that requires me to question
EVERYTHING. Everything that I accepted growing up as an unquestionable truth,
bestowed upon me by trusted grown-ups, is now open for me to hold up to the
light and judge for myself.

For my children and myself, unschooling can't be described as a "method of
education" (like "classical education" "structured education", "school at
home"). It truly is a lifestyle choice. Help me to understand how you view
"unschooling". I've heard people say that for them, unschooling is about what
works for a particular child. ("Works?") That is way too broad a definition
of what I hold to be unschooling. Besides, who is deciding what works? I'm
betting not the child.

More and more on this and other lists, I'm seeing two camps of people who
call themselves unschoolers. And I'm confused.

Laura

Kim

You are so right and I have had it up to here with this list! I have been
on this list for a few months now and it seems this list is manipulated by a
few very opinionated loudmouths that don't have much to say, but to belittle
and screw words around! When someone comes on this list that does have
something useful to say, like Valerie for example, she is shut-up and by the
list moderator no doubt! This list should be called flame-schooling! I am
going to find an unschooling list that doesn't tolerate this type of thing
by the moderator and allows people with something useful to say, talk.
Like my mother always said, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one
and they all stink!"
Good-bye to all of the nice people that are still trying to work it out and
to all of the newbies that are trying to get good information, run, run as
fast as you can to a real unschooling list! And good riddance to the
big-mouthed, frustrated, opinionated bitches that have no life except to try
to run down someone else's opinions, I feel sorry for your children!
Kim

p.s. Isn't it so nice to have such wonderful hobbies? This is from Lynda
Lurines profile:


Hobbies: Squashing little twits with no life experience who think they can
come into chat room and demand respect and tell others how to live their
lives.

Some people should really look into the mirror!



From: "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@...>
Subject: the flames are getting a bit high around here

I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even hesitate
to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
pyrotechnics, but here goes.

One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the fact that we
can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one solution is
going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various methods of
homeschooling.

The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities to
overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't heard much
on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously when
opinions differ.

Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for the
child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental approach to
the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is) will also
be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to extreme on
both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline, etc.)
rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.

One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about dangers (such
as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other hand,
this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of common
sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
Personally I have four children and each child requires a different tact ...
from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more strong
boundaries of behavior and consequences.

A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my opinion,
the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So, for the
sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that are
trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement this
approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil, send
your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together where
parenting issues are the topic.

There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this group and
only a very small percentage are participating in the flames; however, the
small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that there is
much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are driving
away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on how the
unschooling method has worked for them.

Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...



From: mamkmm2@...
Subject: Re: the flames are getting a bit high around here

My apologies. I went and re-read the list description and it
basically told me that if I wanted info on unschooling, I'd only get
it at the website ... this list being strictly networking, etc.

I still say that some of you all are way too rough with one another
as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure this is not how you would
handle your own children or normal public conversation. This list
could be a great place to network on unschooling info ... but its not
described that way, nor has it been working that way ... so I am
bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I don't trip all over
them again <grin>.

While I might describe this as an interesting experience, its been a
bit nasty and venomously confrontational, neither of which is
something that I espouse or wish my kids to learn in their
homeschooling or home life.

Kathy

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
wrote:
> I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
hesitate
> to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> pyrotechnics, but here goes.
>
> One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the
fact that we
> can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
solution is
> going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
methods of
> homeschooling.
>
> The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities
to
> overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
heard much
> on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously
when
> opinions differ.
>
> Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for
the
> child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
approach to
> the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is)
will also
> be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to
extreme on
> both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
etc.)
> rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
>
> One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about
dangers (such
> as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
hand,
> this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
common
> sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
tact ...
> from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
strong
> boundaries of behavior and consequences.
>
> A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
opinion,
> the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So,
for the
> sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
are
> trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
this
> approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
send
> your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together
where
> parenting issues are the topic.
>
> There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this
group and
> only a very small percentage are participating in the flames;
however, the
> small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that
there is
> much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
driving
> away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on
how the
> unschooling method has worked for them.
>
> Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...


From: mamkmm2@...
Subject: Sandra, I see part of your point

Sandra,

I do see what you are saying; however, I did say that unschooling was
a way of meeting the child's needs "no matter what those needs might
be" referring to whether the need was educational or otherwise ...
including parental issues.

And yes, I agree that unschooling requires that boundaries be
explored and concepts loosened. On the other hand, it doesn't
necessarily mean that ALL boundaries are transient and loose ALL the
time.

I successfully unschool one of my four children because that is the
method that works best with her ... based on needs and
personality ... but do not unschool the other three. On the other
hand we have set rules and consequences in this house that some would
view as authoritarian in style. So, in my personal opinion and
experience, unschooling and authoritarianism do not necessarily
preclude one another.

As for necessity of "loosening up" ... that could well describe some
of the posts to this list lately. Unschooling is not THE approach to
education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
say is patently false.

I posted that I had mistaken the description of this list and
apologized for it. I will remain on here long enough to deal with
any fall out from my original post because I feel responsible for
it. It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to bring into the
open what I felt was a serious concern. Again, my apologies.


Kathy
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> mamkmm2@p... writes:
>
>
> > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in
my opinion,
> > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.
>
> But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and
without
> loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool.
Nine years
> ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool,"
but after
> years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen
repeatedly that
> families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and
families who
> do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.
>
> Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't
encompass
> all educational options on the whole planet.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

Laura,

I've read this a couple of times and admit that it could be taken the
wrong way, but I've made a real effort to be objective yet truthful
and hope that I don't upset you or hurt your feelings. I've tried to
knock off the rough edges. Your questions gave me the opportunity to
try and put into words things I don't normally have to. Labels and
absolute definitions are something that I have always found only
questionalbly useful; although I do believe that some absolutes are
fact rather than transient. So anywho, here it is ..... <grin>

First, let me try and answer your first question. I define
homeschooling as the lifestyle, and unschooling as one method to
implement that lifestyle. This isn't exactly what I mean but it is
very close. To me homeschooling isn't just an educational choice but
the way we live our lives ... we chose to be in control of our family
choices, including the education of our children. Now I don't mean
control as in "strangle hold" with no flexibility or sensibilities to
our children's needs and wants (or of the beliefs of others), but
more as in belief in the right to be self-directed without the gross
interference of family, friends, or "well-meaning" agencies or
groups. Self-directed as parents, as children, and as a family.
But, with the realization that we are fully accountable for all of
our choices and actions.

Secondly, you say that you see unschooling as a door that "requires"
you "to question EVERYTHING. Everything that I accepted growing up as
an unquestionable truth, bestowed upon me by trusted grown-ups, is
now open for me to hold up to the light and judge for myself."
Actually that is the definition my husband and I were raised to
believe came with adulthood in general. Our parents, traditional in
their parenting styles and discipline, raised us to understand that
they could raise us as children, but adulthood came after we were
capable of making our own decisions based on our own beliefs ... even
if those beliefs wound up being different from theirs. It is often
called the "age of accountablility." I guess the analogy is that you
can only hold a child's hand so long before they need to learn to
walk on their own ... and they have the right to fall down or succeed
based on their own choices and skills. That is also the way we are
raising our children ... but more as an issue of maturity than of
ideology.

Unschooling is the best way that one of my children learn. Self-
directed, experiential, with lots of real life application. She
needs to have more control over things going on around her or she
over reacts and stresses out. I don't mean that she is bossy or
selfish ... just that her personality is best suited towards this
method at this time. So long as she continues to progress, as
opposed to going stale or plateauing, I will allow her that freedom
wihtout putting suggestions in. Its a choice that I've had to make
as a parent for her (she is only 5 years old) based on her learning
style and regardless of how I was at her age. On the other hand my
older two do much better with directed study and with parameters to
work inside. My oldest does well with this and will then go into
self-directed study ... but won't do so on her own initially. My
son, 8 years, does not do well without boundaries at all. He
exhibits very poor thinking and decision skills although he has
improved dramatically over the last year. While it may partly be an
issue of maturity ... I know him well enough to know though that this
is not the only issue causing these behaviors. He is a tester and is
not happy until he has found the boundaries that he must live with.
He has done some very foolish and unsafe behaviors and we have had to
chose how to deal with them. My two year old lies somewhere amidst
these differences and we aren't pushing her.

I hope that I've been able to clarify my stance without sounding
pompous. It drives me crazy to read something I wrote and later find
that it sounded like I was lecturing. This is certainly not my
intent! One of the best things about homeschooling to me is the
ability to individualize for the children and the family. What works
for me is not necessarily going to work for anyone else. Even
lifestyle choices, methods of implementation, and ideology concerning
all of these differ from person to person and family to family.

Kathy
mamkmm2@...

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., parrishml@a... wrote:
> Kathy -- I'm interested in how you define unschooling. I personally
have
> found unschooling to be a door that has opened that requires me to
question
> EVERYTHING. Everything that I accepted growing up as an
unquestionable truth,
> bestowed upon me by trusted grown-ups, is now open for me to hold
up to the
> light and judge for myself.
>
> For my children and myself, unschooling can't be described as
a "method of
> education" (like "classical education" "structured
education", "school at
> home"). It truly is a lifestyle choice. Help me to understand how
you view
> "unschooling". I've heard people say that for them, unschooling is
about what
> works for a particular child. ("Works?") That is way too broad a
definition
> of what I hold to be unschooling. Besides, who is deciding what
works? I'm
> betting not the child.
>
> More and more on this and other lists, I'm seeing two camps of
people who
> call themselves unschoolers. And I'm confused.
>
> Laura

Tami Labig-Duquette

Interesting tantrum :) Kinda mean spirited and nasty though!
Tami


>From: "Kim" <sinclai@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high around
>here
>Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 14:00:25 -0700
>
>You are so right and I have had it up to here with this list! I have been
>on this list for a few months now and it seems this list is manipulated by
>a
>few very opinionated loudmouths that don't have much to say, but to
>belittle
>and screw words around! When someone comes on this list that does have
>something useful to say, like Valerie for example, she is shut-up and by
>the
>list moderator no doubt! This list should be called flame-schooling! I
>am
>going to find an unschooling list that doesn't tolerate this type of thing
>by the moderator and allows people with something useful to say, talk.
>Like my mother always said, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one
>and they all stink!"
>Good-bye to all of the nice people that are still trying to work it out and
>to all of the newbies that are trying to get good information, run, run as
>fast as you can to a real unschooling list! And good riddance to the
>big-mouthed, frustrated, opinionated bitches that have no life except to
>try
>to run down someone else's opinions, I feel sorry for your children!
>Kim
>
>p.s. Isn't it so nice to have such wonderful hobbies? This is from Lynda
>Lurines profile:
>
>
>Hobbies: Squashing little twits with no life experience who think they can
>come into chat room and demand respect and tell others how to live their
>lives.
>
>Some people should really look into the mirror!
>
>
>
> From: "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@...>
>Subject: the flames are getting a bit high around here
>
>I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even hesitate
>to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
>pyrotechnics, but here goes.
>
>One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the fact that
>we
>can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one solution
>is
>going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various methods of
>homeschooling.
>
>The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities to
>overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't heard
>much
>on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously when
>opinions differ.
>
>Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for the
>child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental approach to
>the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is) will also
>be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to extreme on
>both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline, etc.)
>rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
>
>One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about dangers
>(such
>as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other hand,
>this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of common
>sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
>Personally I have four children and each child requires a different tact
>...
>from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more strong
>boundaries of behavior and consequences.
>
>A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my opinion,
>the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So, for the
>sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that are
>trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement this
>approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil, send
>your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together where
>parenting issues are the topic.
>
>There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this group and
>only a very small percentage are participating in the flames; however, the
>small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that there is
>much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are driving
>away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on how the
>unschooling method has worked for them.
>
>Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
>
>
>
> From: mamkmm2@...
>Subject: Re: the flames are getting a bit high around here
>
>My apologies. I went and re-read the list description and it
>basically told me that if I wanted info on unschooling, I'd only get
>it at the website ... this list being strictly networking, etc.
>
>I still say that some of you all are way too rough with one another
>as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure this is not how you would
>handle your own children or normal public conversation. This list
>could be a great place to network on unschooling info ... but its not
>described that way, nor has it been working that way ... so I am
>bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I don't trip all over
>them again <grin>.
>
>While I might describe this as an interesting experience, its been a
>bit nasty and venomously confrontational, neither of which is
>something that I espouse or wish my kids to learn in their
>homeschooling or home life.
>
>Kathy
>
>--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
>wrote:
> > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
>hesitate
> > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> >
> > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the
>fact that we
> > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
>solution is
> > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
>methods of
> > homeschooling.
> >
> > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities
>to
> > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
>heard much
> > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously
>when
> > opinions differ.
> >
> > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for
>the
> > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
>approach to
> > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is)
>will also
> > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to
>extreme on
> > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
>etc.)
> > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> >
> > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about
>dangers (such
> > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
>hand,
> > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
>common
> > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
>tact ...
> > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
>strong
> > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> >
> > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
>opinion,
> > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So,
>for the
> > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
>are
> > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
>this
> > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
>send
> > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together
>where
> > parenting issues are the topic.
> >
> > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this
>group and
> > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames;
>however, the
> > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that
>there is
> > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
>driving
> > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on
>how the
> > unschooling method has worked for them.
> >
> > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...
>
>
>From: mamkmm2@...
>Subject: Sandra, I see part of your point
>
>Sandra,
>
>I do see what you are saying; however, I did say that unschooling was
>a way of meeting the child's needs "no matter what those needs might
>be" referring to whether the need was educational or otherwise ...
>including parental issues.
>
>And yes, I agree that unschooling requires that boundaries be
>explored and concepts loosened. On the other hand, it doesn't
>necessarily mean that ALL boundaries are transient and loose ALL the
>time.
>
>I successfully unschool one of my four children because that is the
>method that works best with her ... based on needs and
>personality ... but do not unschool the other three. On the other
>hand we have set rules and consequences in this house that some would
>view as authoritarian in style. So, in my personal opinion and
>experience, unschooling and authoritarianism do not necessarily
>preclude one another.
>
>As for necessity of "loosening up" ... that could well describe some
>of the posts to this list lately. Unschooling is not THE approach to
>education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
>most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
>completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
>solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
>say is patently false.
>
>I posted that I had mistaken the description of this list and
>apologized for it. I will remain on here long enough to deal with
>any fall out from my original post because I feel responsible for
>it. It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to bring into the
>open what I felt was a serious concern. Again, my apologies.
>
>
>Kathy
>--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> > mamkmm2@p... writes:
> >
> >
> > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in
>my opinion,
> > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.
> >
> > But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and
>without
> > loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool.
>Nine years
> > ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool,"
>but after
> > years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen
>repeatedly that
> > families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and
>families who
> > do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.
> >
> > Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't
>encompass
> > all educational options on the whole planet.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
>http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
>http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/19/01 16:56:36, sinclai@... writes:

<< This list should be called flame-schooling! I am
going to find an unschooling list that doesn't tolerate this type of thing
by the moderator and allows people with something useful to say, talk.
Like my mother always said, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one
and they all stink!" >>

It sounds like unschooling isn't for you if you don't like any opinions at
all. Kimme

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/19/01 19:10:36, labigduquette@... writes:

<< Interesting tantrum :) Kinda mean spirited and nasty though! >>

Ditto! By the way I appreciate the different perspectives on this list. I
especially enjoy Sandra's perspectives. I think that we all can learn
something from one another if we listen. Kimme

Kim Baker

I must say that I, for one, agree with you!! :-)
KIM & EDDIE Dylan 11 Jacob 10 Noah 22 mos.
--- MICHAEL MARTINEZ <mamkmm2@...>
wrote:
> I've been reading the digests of this list for
> weeks now. I even hesitate
> to point this out, knowing I'll probably get
> dumped on by some major
> pyrotechnics, but here goes.
>
> One of the greatest factors for success of
> homeschooling is the fact that we
> can individualize for our children and our
> family needs. No one solution is
> going to work for each and every situation ...
> thus the various methods of
> homeschooling.
>
> The flames are getting high and writers are
> allowing personalities to
> overshadow the concept of homeschooling here.
> In fact, I haven't heard much
> on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being
> sprayed venemously when
> opinions differ.
>
> Unschooling at its very heart means complete
> individualization for the
> child's sake. Since each child is so
> individual, the parental approach to
> the child and the child's need (regardless of
> what that need is) will also
> be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying
> definitions to extreme on
> both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries,
> fundamentalism, discipline, etc.)
> rather than accepting individualization needs
> and definitions.
>
> One person may have a child who never needs to
> be taught about dangers (such
> as a hot stove) because the information seems
> innate. On the other hand,
> this same parent may have another child who
> tests the boundaries of common
> sense at every turn requiring a stronger
> discipline by the parent.
> Personally I have four children and each child
> requires a different tact ...
> from an almost hands-off approach to one that
> requires much more strong
> boundaries of behavior and consequences.
>
> A list that is supposed to be discussing
> unschooling is not, in my opinion,
> the best venue for discussing parenting issues
> and choices. So, for the
> sake of the continued viability of this group
> and the members that are
> trying to get information on unschooling and
> how best to implement this
> approach, please either moderate your
> discussions to be more civil, send
> your emails off-list, or take them to another
> list all together where
> parenting issues are the topic.
>
> There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19)
> belonging to this group and
> only a very small percentage are participating
> in the flames; however, the
> small percentage doing so, are basically
> "shouting" so much that there is
> much less opportunity to discuss the method of
> unschooling and are driving
> away members who could really offer some
> wonderful suggestions on how the
> unschooling method has worked for them.
>
> Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free
> newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read
> archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education
> Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
Kim - Missouri MOM of Dylan(11) Jacob(10) Noah(21 mos)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Kim Baker

Once again, I have to whole heartedly agree!

--- mamkmm2@... wrote:
> My apologies. I went and re-read the list
> description and it
> basically told me that if I wanted info on
> unschooling, I'd only get
> it at the website ... this list being strictly
> networking, etc.
>
> I still say that some of you all are way too
> rough with one another
> as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure
> this is not how you would
> handle your own children or normal public
> conversation. This list
> could be a great place to network on
> unschooling info ... but its not
> described that way, nor has it been working
> that way ... so I am
> bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I
> don't trip all over
> them again <grin>.
>
> While I might describe this as an interesting
> experience, its been a
> bit nasty and venemously confrontational,
> neither of which is
> something that I espouse or wish my kids to
> learn in their
> homeschooling or home life.
>
> Kathy
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL
> MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
> wrote:
> > I've been reading the digests of this list
> for weeks now. I even
> hesitate
> > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get
> dumped on by some major
> > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> >
> > One of the greatest factors for success of
> homeschooling is the
> fact that we
> > can individualize for our children and our
> family needs. No one
> solution is
> > going to work for each and every situation
> ... thus the various
> methods of
> > homeschooling.
> >
> > The flames are getting high and writers are
> allowing personalities
> to
> > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here.
> In fact, I haven't
> heard much
> > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being
> sprayed venemously
> when
> > opinions differ.
> >
> > Unschooling at its very heart means complete
> individualization for
> the
> > child's sake. Since each child is so
> individual, the parental
> approach to
> > the child and the child's need (regardless of
> what that need is)
> will also
> > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are
> carrying definitions to
> extreme on
> > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries,
> fundamentalism, discipline,
> etc.)
> > rather than accepting individualization needs
> and definitions.
> >
> > One person may have a child who never needs
> to be taught about
> dangers (such
> > as a hot stove) because the information seems
> innate. On the other
> hand,
> > this same parent may have another child who
> tests the boundaries of
> common
> > sense at every turn requiring a stronger
> discipline by the parent.
> > Personally I have four children and each
> child requires a different
> tact ...
> > from an almost hands-off approach to one that
> requires much more
> strong
> > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> >
> > A list that is supposed to be discussing
> unschooling is not, in my
> opinion,
> > the best venue for discussing parenting
> issues and choices. So,
> for the
> > sake of the continued viability of this group
> and the members that
> are
> > trying to get information on unschooling and
> how best to implement
> this
> > approach, please either moderate your
> discussions to be more civil,
> send
> > your emails off-list, or take them to another
> list all together
> where
> > parenting issues are the topic.
> >
> > There are 505 members (number checked on
> 5/19) belonging to this
> group and
> > only a very small percentage are
> participating in the flames;
> however, the
> > small percentage doing so, are basically
> "shouting" so much that
> there is
> > much less opportunity to discuss the method
> of unschooling and are
> driving
> > away members who could really offer some
> wonderful suggestions on
> how the
> > unschooling method has worked for them.
> >
> > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free
> newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read
> archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education
> Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


=====
Kim - Missouri MOM of Dylan(11) Jacob(10) Noah(21 mos)

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

Lynda

This list isn't moderated and no one has ever been "shut-up" by the
imaginary moderator as long as I've been on it.

And, just a hint for folks that are new to the net, profiles are public
information and quite a few folks (moi being one <g>) believe in giving
"mis" information as they don't believe that any of that sort of info is
anyone else's business. Soooo, if you read profiles and expect to learn
anything, take them with a grain of salt.

Of course, then again, if one had the sense god gave a rutabaga one might
have gotten a hint from the rest of the profile which lists my age as 99 <g>

Lynda, who is pondering the question: which is worse, ignorance or
insecurity combined with immaturity.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kim" <sinclai@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 2:00 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high around
here


> You are so right and I have had it up to here with this list! I have been
> on this list for a few months now and it seems this list is manipulated by
a
> few very opinionated loudmouths that don't have much to say, but to
belittle
> and screw words around! When someone comes on this list that does have
> something useful to say, like Valerie for example, she is shut-up and by
the
> list moderator no doubt! This list should be called flame-schooling! I
am
> going to find an unschooling list that doesn't tolerate this type of thing
> by the moderator and allows people with something useful to say, talk.
> Like my mother always said, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one
> and they all stink!"
> Good-bye to all of the nice people that are still trying to work it out
and
> to all of the newbies that are trying to get good information, run, run as
> fast as you can to a real unschooling list! And good riddance to the
> big-mouthed, frustrated, opinionated bitches that have no life except to
try
> to run down someone else's opinions, I feel sorry for your children!
> Kim
>
> p.s. Isn't it so nice to have such wonderful hobbies? This is from Lynda
> Lurines profile:
>
>
> Hobbies: Squashing little twits with no life experience who think they can
> come into chat room and demand respect and tell others how to live their
> lives.
>
> Some people should really look into the mirror!
>
>
>
> From: "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@...>
> Subject: the flames are getting a bit high around here
>
> I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even hesitate
> to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> pyrotechnics, but here goes.
>
> One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the fact that
we
> can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one solution
is
> going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various methods of
> homeschooling.
>
> The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities to
> overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't heard
much
> on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously when
> opinions differ.
>
> Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for the
> child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental approach to
> the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is) will also
> be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to extreme on
> both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline, etc.)
> rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
>
> One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about dangers
(such
> as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other hand,
> this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of common
> sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> Personally I have four children and each child requires a different tact
...
> from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more strong
> boundaries of behavior and consequences.
>
> A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
opinion,
> the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So, for the
> sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that are
> trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement this
> approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil, send
> your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together where
> parenting issues are the topic.
>
> There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this group and
> only a very small percentage are participating in the flames; however, the
> small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that there is
> much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are driving
> away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on how the
> unschooling method has worked for them.
>
> Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
>
>
>
> From: mamkmm2@...
> Subject: Re: the flames are getting a bit high around here
>
> My apologies. I went and re-read the list description and it
> basically told me that if I wanted info on unschooling, I'd only get
> it at the website ... this list being strictly networking, etc.
>
> I still say that some of you all are way too rough with one another
> as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure this is not how you would
> handle your own children or normal public conversation. This list
> could be a great place to network on unschooling info ... but its not
> described that way, nor has it been working that way ... so I am
> bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I don't trip all over
> them again <grin>.
>
> While I might describe this as an interesting experience, its been a
> bit nasty and venomously confrontational, neither of which is
> something that I espouse or wish my kids to learn in their
> homeschooling or home life.
>
> Kathy
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
> wrote:
> > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
> hesitate
> > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> >
> > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the
> fact that we
> > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
> solution is
> > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
> methods of
> > homeschooling.
> >
> > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities
> to
> > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
> heard much
> > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously
> when
> > opinions differ.
> >
> > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for
> the
> > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
> approach to
> > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is)
> will also
> > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to
> extreme on
> > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
> etc.)
> > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> >
> > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about
> dangers (such
> > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
> hand,
> > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
> common
> > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
> tact ...
> > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
> strong
> > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> >
> > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
> opinion,
> > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So,
> for the
> > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
> are
> > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
> this
> > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
> send
> > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together
> where
> > parenting issues are the topic.
> >
> > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this
> group and
> > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames;
> however, the
> > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that
> there is
> > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
> driving
> > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on
> how the
> > unschooling method has worked for them.
> >
> > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...
>
>
> From: mamkmm2@...
> Subject: Sandra, I see part of your point
>
> Sandra,
>
> I do see what you are saying; however, I did say that unschooling was
> a way of meeting the child's needs "no matter what those needs might
> be" referring to whether the need was educational or otherwise ...
> including parental issues.
>
> And yes, I agree that unschooling requires that boundaries be
> explored and concepts loosened. On the other hand, it doesn't
> necessarily mean that ALL boundaries are transient and loose ALL the
> time.
>
> I successfully unschool one of my four children because that is the
> method that works best with her ... based on needs and
> personality ... but do not unschool the other three. On the other
> hand we have set rules and consequences in this house that some would
> view as authoritarian in style. So, in my personal opinion and
> experience, unschooling and authoritarianism do not necessarily
> preclude one another.
>
> As for necessity of "loosening up" ... that could well describe some
> of the posts to this list lately. Unschooling is not THE approach to
> education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
> most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
> completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
> solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
> say is patently false.
>
> I posted that I had mistaken the description of this list and
> apologized for it. I will remain on here long enough to deal with
> any fall out from my original post because I feel responsible for
> it. It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to bring into the
> open what I felt was a serious concern. Again, my apologies.
>
>
> Kathy
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> > mamkmm2@p... writes:
> >
> >
> > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in
> my opinion,
> > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.
> >
> > But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and
> without
> > loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool.
> Nine years
> > ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool,"
> but after
> > years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen
> repeatedly that
> > families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and
> families who
> > do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.
> >
> > Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't
> encompass
> > all educational options on the whole planet.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Tami Labig-Duquette

A rutabaga? That definitely goes in the filing cabinet under cool comebacks
:) I didnt know you were THAT Lynda :) boy your old ;D
Tami



>From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high
>around here
>Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:38:35 -0700
>
>This list isn't moderated and no one has ever been "shut-up" by the
>imaginary moderator as long as I've been on it.
>
>And, just a hint for folks that are new to the net, profiles are public
>information and quite a few folks (moi being one <g>) believe in giving
>"mis" information as they don't believe that any of that sort of info is
>anyone else's business. Soooo, if you read profiles and expect to learn
>anything, take them with a grain of salt.
>
>Of course, then again, if one had the sense god gave a rutabaga one might
>have gotten a hint from the rest of the profile which lists my age as 99
><g>
>
>Lynda, who is pondering the question: which is worse, ignorance or
>insecurity combined with immaturity.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kim" <sinclai@...>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 2:00 PM
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high around
>here
>
>
> > You are so right and I have had it up to here with this list! I have
>been
> > on this list for a few months now and it seems this list is manipulated
>by
>a
> > few very opinionated loudmouths that don't have much to say, but to
>belittle
> > and screw words around! When someone comes on this list that does have
> > something useful to say, like Valerie for example, she is shut-up and by
>the
> > list moderator no doubt! This list should be called flame-schooling!
>I
>am
> > going to find an unschooling list that doesn't tolerate this type of
>thing
> > by the moderator and allows people with something useful to say, talk.
> > Like my mother always said, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has
>one
> > and they all stink!"
> > Good-bye to all of the nice people that are still trying to work it out
>and
> > to all of the newbies that are trying to get good information, run, run
>as
> > fast as you can to a real unschooling list! And good riddance to the
> > big-mouthed, frustrated, opinionated bitches that have no life except to
>try
> > to run down someone else's opinions, I feel sorry for your children!
> > Kim
> >
> > p.s. Isn't it so nice to have such wonderful hobbies? This is from
>Lynda
> > Lurines profile:
> >
> >
> > Hobbies: Squashing little twits with no life experience who think they
>can
> > come into chat room and demand respect and tell others how to live their
> > lives.
> >
> > Some people should really look into the mirror!
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@...>
> > Subject: the flames are getting a bit high around here
> >
> > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
>hesitate
> > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> >
> > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the fact
>that
>we
> > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
>solution
>is
> > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various methods
>of
> > homeschooling.
> >
> > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities to
> > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't heard
>much
> > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously when
> > opinions differ.
> >
> > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for the
> > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental approach
>to
> > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is) will
>also
> > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to extreme on
> > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline, etc.)
> > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> >
> > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about dangers
>(such
> > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
>hand,
> > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
>common
> > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different tact
>...
> > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more strong
> > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> >
> > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
>opinion,
> > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So, for the
> > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that are
> > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement this
> > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil, send
> > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together where
> > parenting issues are the topic.
> >
> > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this group
>and
> > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames; however,
>the
> > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that there
>is
> > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
>driving
> > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on how
>the
> > unschooling method has worked for them.
> >
> > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
> >
> >
> >
> > From: mamkmm2@...
> > Subject: Re: the flames are getting a bit high around here
> >
> > My apologies. I went and re-read the list description and it
> > basically told me that if I wanted info on unschooling, I'd only get
> > it at the website ... this list being strictly networking, etc.
> >
> > I still say that some of you all are way too rough with one another
> > as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure this is not how you would
> > handle your own children or normal public conversation. This list
> > could be a great place to network on unschooling info ... but its not
> > described that way, nor has it been working that way ... so I am
> > bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I don't trip all over
> > them again <grin>.
> >
> > While I might describe this as an interesting experience, its been a
> > bit nasty and venomously confrontational, neither of which is
> > something that I espouse or wish my kids to learn in their
> > homeschooling or home life.
> >
> > Kathy
> >
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
> > wrote:
> > > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
> > hesitate
> > > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> > >
> > > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the
> > fact that we
> > > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
> > solution is
> > > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
> > methods of
> > > homeschooling.
> > >
> > > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities
> > to
> > > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
> > heard much
> > > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously
> > when
> > > opinions differ.
> > >
> > > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for
> > the
> > > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
> > approach to
> > > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is)
> > will also
> > > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to
> > extreme on
> > > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
> > etc.)
> > > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> > >
> > > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about
> > dangers (such
> > > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
> > hand,
> > > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
> > common
> > > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
> > tact ...
> > > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
> > strong
> > > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> > >
> > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
> > opinion,
> > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So,
> > for the
> > > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
> > are
> > > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
> > this
> > > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
> > send
> > > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together
> > where
> > > parenting issues are the topic.
> > >
> > > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this
> > group and
> > > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames;
> > however, the
> > > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that
> > there is
> > > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
> > driving
> > > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on
> > how the
> > > unschooling method has worked for them.
> > >
> > > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...
> >
> >
> > From: mamkmm2@...
> > Subject: Sandra, I see part of your point
> >
> > Sandra,
> >
> > I do see what you are saying; however, I did say that unschooling was
> > a way of meeting the child's needs "no matter what those needs might
> > be" referring to whether the need was educational or otherwise ...
> > including parental issues.
> >
> > And yes, I agree that unschooling requires that boundaries be
> > explored and concepts loosened. On the other hand, it doesn't
> > necessarily mean that ALL boundaries are transient and loose ALL the
> > time.
> >
> > I successfully unschool one of my four children because that is the
> > method that works best with her ... based on needs and
> > personality ... but do not unschool the other three. On the other
> > hand we have set rules and consequences in this house that some would
> > view as authoritarian in style. So, in my personal opinion and
> > experience, unschooling and authoritarianism do not necessarily
> > preclude one another.
> >
> > As for necessity of "loosening up" ... that could well describe some
> > of the posts to this list lately. Unschooling is not THE approach to
> > education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
> > most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
> > completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
> > solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
> > say is patently false.
> >
> > I posted that I had mistaken the description of this list and
> > apologized for it. I will remain on here long enough to deal with
> > any fall out from my original post because I feel responsible for
> > it. It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to bring into the
> > open what I felt was a serious concern. Again, my apologies.
> >
> >
> > Kathy
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > > In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> > > mamkmm2@p... writes:
> > >
> > >
> > > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in
> > my opinion,
> > > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.
> > >
> > > But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and
> > without
> > > loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool.
> > Nine years
> > > ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool,"
> > but after
> > > years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen
> > repeatedly that
> > > families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and
> > families who
> > > do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.
> > >
> > > Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't
> > encompass
> > > all educational options on the whole planet.
> > >
> > > Sandra
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
>http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
>http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/19/01 1:54:42 PM, mamkmm2@... writes:

<< Unschooling is not THE approach to
education or parenting ... it is one of them. >>

But this is the unschooling list and so we shouldn't have to qualify all our
statements, and we shouldn't have to be as accomodating of structured school
discussions as we are of those earnestly wanting to learn about how
unschooling can best work.

This is the shorter version:

<<It sounds like unschooling isn't for you if you don't like any opinions at
all. Kimme>>

Wow. Reminds me of Robin Hood splitting his own arrow.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/01 0:38:43, lurine@... writes:

<< Lynda, who is pondering the question: which is worse, ignorance or
insecurity combined with immaturity. >>

I think the two combined is probably worse...Kimme

Lynda

Hey, the silly thing wouldn't accept OAD (Old As Dirt) and wouldn't take an
age over 99. Personally I was thinking more in the hundreds. I mean, I've
survived the teen years of 4 birth kidlets, 7 foster kidlets and multiple
"walking wounded" the kidlets have "adopted" and brought home. That's gotta
count when you tally up the years, right <g>

Lynda, who admits to having a severe case of mommy brain <<<bewg>>>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Labig-Duquette" <labigduquette@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high
around here


> A rutabaga? That definitely goes in the filing cabinet under cool
comebacks
> :) I didnt know you were THAT Lynda :) boy your old ;D
> Tami
>
>
>
> >From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high
> >around here
> >Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:38:35 -0700
> >
> >This list isn't moderated and no one has ever been "shut-up" by the
> >imaginary moderator as long as I've been on it.
> >
> >And, just a hint for folks that are new to the net, profiles are public
> >information and quite a few folks (moi being one <g>) believe in giving
> >"mis" information as they don't believe that any of that sort of info is
> >anyone else's business. Soooo, if you read profiles and expect to learn
> >anything, take them with a grain of salt.
> >
> >Of course, then again, if one had the sense god gave a rutabaga one might
> >have gotten a hint from the rest of the profile which lists my age as 99
> ><g>
> >
> >Lynda, who is pondering the question: which is worse, ignorance or
> >insecurity combined with immaturity.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Kim" <sinclai@...>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 2:00 PM
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high
around
> >here
> >
> >
> > > You are so right and I have had it up to here with this list! I have
> >been
> > > on this list for a few months now and it seems this list is
manipulated
> >by
> >a
> > > few very opinionated loudmouths that don't have much to say, but to
> >belittle
> > > and screw words around! When someone comes on this list that does
have
> > > something useful to say, like Valerie for example, she is shut-up and
by
> >the
> > > list moderator no doubt! This list should be called flame-schooling!
> >I
> >am
> > > going to find an unschooling list that doesn't tolerate this type of
> >thing
> > > by the moderator and allows people with something useful to say, talk.
> > > Like my mother always said, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has
> >one
> > > and they all stink!"
> > > Good-bye to all of the nice people that are still trying to work it
out
> >and
> > > to all of the newbies that are trying to get good information, run,
run
> >as
> > > fast as you can to a real unschooling list! And good riddance to the
> > > big-mouthed, frustrated, opinionated bitches that have no life except
to
> >try
> > > to run down someone else's opinions, I feel sorry for your children!
> > > Kim
> > >
> > > p.s. Isn't it so nice to have such wonderful hobbies? This is from
> >Lynda
> > > Lurines profile:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hobbies: Squashing little twits with no life experience who think they
> >can
> > > come into chat room and demand respect and tell others how to live
their
> > > lives.
> > >
> > > Some people should really look into the mirror!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@...>
> > > Subject: the flames are getting a bit high around here
> > >
> > > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
> >hesitate
> > > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> > >
> > > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the fact
> >that
> >we
> > > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
> >solution
> >is
> > > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
methods
> >of
> > > homeschooling.
> > >
> > > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities to
> > > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
heard
> >much
> > > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously when
> > > opinions differ.
> > >
> > > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for the
> > > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
approach
> >to
> > > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is) will
> >also
> > > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to extreme
on
> > > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
etc.)
> > > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> > >
> > > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about dangers
> >(such
> > > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
> >hand,
> > > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
> >common
> > > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
tact
> >...
> > > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
strong
> > > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> > >
> > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
> >opinion,
> > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So, for
the
> > > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
are
> > > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
this
> > > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
send
> > > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together where
> > > parenting issues are the topic.
> > >
> > > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this group
> >and
> > > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames; however,
> >the
> > > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that there
> >is
> > > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
> >driving
> > > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on how
> >the
> > > unschooling method has worked for them.
> > >
> > > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mamkmm2@...
> > > Subject: Re: the flames are getting a bit high around here
> > >
> > > My apologies. I went and re-read the list description and it
> > > basically told me that if I wanted info on unschooling, I'd only get
> > > it at the website ... this list being strictly networking, etc.
> > >
> > > I still say that some of you all are way too rough with one another
> > > as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure this is not how you would
> > > handle your own children or normal public conversation. This list
> > > could be a great place to network on unschooling info ... but its not
> > > described that way, nor has it been working that way ... so I am
> > > bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I don't trip all over
> > > them again <grin>.
> > >
> > > While I might describe this as an interesting experience, its been a
> > > bit nasty and venomously confrontational, neither of which is
> > > something that I espouse or wish my kids to learn in their
> > > homeschooling or home life.
> > >
> > > Kathy
> > >
> > > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
> > > hesitate
> > > > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > > > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> > > >
> > > > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the
> > > fact that we
> > > > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
> > > solution is
> > > > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
> > > methods of
> > > > homeschooling.
> > > >
> > > > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities
> > > to
> > > > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
> > > heard much
> > > > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously
> > > when
> > > > opinions differ.
> > > >
> > > > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for
> > > the
> > > > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
> > > approach to
> > > > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is)
> > > will also
> > > > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to
> > > extreme on
> > > > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
> > > etc.)
> > > > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> > > >
> > > > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about
> > > dangers (such
> > > > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
> > > hand,
> > > > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
> > > common
> > > > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > > > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
> > > tact ...
> > > > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
> > > strong
> > > > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> > > >
> > > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
> > > opinion,
> > > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So,
> > > for the
> > > > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
> > > are
> > > > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
> > > this
> > > > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
> > > send
> > > > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together
> > > where
> > > > parenting issues are the topic.
> > > >
> > > > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this
> > > group and
> > > > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames;
> > > however, the
> > > > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that
> > > there is
> > > > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
> > > driving
> > > > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on
> > > how the
> > > > unschooling method has worked for them.
> > > >
> > > > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mamkmm2@...
> > > Subject: Sandra, I see part of your point
> > >
> > > Sandra,
> > >
> > > I do see what you are saying; however, I did say that unschooling was
> > > a way of meeting the child's needs "no matter what those needs might
> > > be" referring to whether the need was educational or otherwise ...
> > > including parental issues.
> > >
> > > And yes, I agree that unschooling requires that boundaries be
> > > explored and concepts loosened. On the other hand, it doesn't
> > > necessarily mean that ALL boundaries are transient and loose ALL the
> > > time.
> > >
> > > I successfully unschool one of my four children because that is the
> > > method that works best with her ... based on needs and
> > > personality ... but do not unschool the other three. On the other
> > > hand we have set rules and consequences in this house that some would
> > > view as authoritarian in style. So, in my personal opinion and
> > > experience, unschooling and authoritarianism do not necessarily
> > > preclude one another.
> > >
> > > As for necessity of "loosening up" ... that could well describe some
> > > of the posts to this list lately. Unschooling is not THE approach to
> > > education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
> > > most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
> > > completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
> > > solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
> > > say is patently false.
> > >
> > > I posted that I had mistaken the description of this list and
> > > apologized for it. I will remain on here long enough to deal with
> > > any fall out from my original post because I feel responsible for
> > > it. It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to bring into the
> > > open what I felt was a serious concern. Again, my apologies.
> > >
> > >
> > > Kathy
> > > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > > > In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> > > > mamkmm2@p... writes:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in
> > > my opinion,
> > > > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.
> > > >
> > > > But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and
> > > without
> > > > loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool.
> > > Nine years
> > > > ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool,"
> > > but after
> > > > years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen
> > > repeatedly that
> > > > families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and
> > > families who
> > > > do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.
> > > >
> > > > Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't
> > > encompass
> > > > all educational options on the whole planet.
> > > >
> > > > Sandra
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> > > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
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>

Nanci Kuykendall

LOL My thoughts exactly. :-) Oh well. Live and
learn. Some people forget to take what they like and
leave the rest, and not get too personally involved or
offended by folks they have never met and are never
likely to. I have been on this list since there was
no one else here but the moderators and have gotten a
lot of support and useful information from the folks
here. I try not to get involved in the occassional
arguments, and they all pass in time and things settle
down. Just remember to take it easy and relax.

Enjoy your spring weather everyone!

Nanci K.

>Interesting tantrum :) Kinda mean spirited and nasty
>though!
>Tami


>>From: "Kim" <sinclai@...>
>>You are so right and I have had it up to here with
>>this list!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
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Tami Labig-Duquette

Its takes alot for me to get that upset (as she apparently was), so if she
felt like she needed to act like, say those things then who am I to say? I
feel its better not to name call and I don't know what word to use other
than Yucky :) (ok so its a word I have learned from my kids ),I dont care
for the nastiness but I do enjoy the debates here on this list, does not
matter what the subect is either :)
Tami


>From: Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom]the flames are getting a bit high around here
>Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 08:10:47 -0700 (PDT)
>
>LOL My thoughts exactly. :-) Oh well. Live and
>learn. Some people forget to take what they like and
>leave the rest, and not get too personally involved or
>offended by folks they have never met and are never
>likely to. I have been on this list since there was
>no one else here but the moderators and have gotten a
>lot of support and useful information from the folks
>here. I try not to get involved in the occassional
>arguments, and they all pass in time and things settle
>down. Just remember to take it easy and relax.
>
>Enjoy your spring weather everyone!
>
>Nanci K.
>
> >Interesting tantrum :) Kinda mean spirited and nasty
> >though!
> >Tami
>
>
> >>From: "Kim" <sinclai@...>
> >>You are so right and I have had it up to here with
> >>this list!
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
>http://auctions.yahoo.com/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Johanna

Go, Linda.. Go , Linda... yeah. Iove hearing of women like you who be mommy to people who need one, even if you didn't give birth. The world needs more people like you.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high around here


Hey, the silly thing wouldn't accept OAD (Old As Dirt) and wouldn't take an
age over 99. Personally I was thinking more in the hundreds. I mean, I've
survived the teen years of 4 birth kidlets, 7 foster kidlets and multiple
"walking wounded" the kidlets have "adopted" and brought home. That's gotta
count when you tally up the years, right <g>

Lynda, who admits to having a severe case of mommy brain <<<bewg>>>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tami Labig-Duquette" <labigduquette@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high
around here


> A rutabaga? That definitely goes in the filing cabinet under cool
comebacks
> :) I didnt know you were THAT Lynda :) boy your old ;D
> Tami
>
>
>
> >From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high
> >around here
> >Date: Sat, 19 May 2001 21:38:35 -0700
> >
> >This list isn't moderated and no one has ever been "shut-up" by the
> >imaginary moderator as long as I've been on it.
> >
> >And, just a hint for folks that are new to the net, profiles are public
> >information and quite a few folks (moi being one <g>) believe in giving
> >"mis" information as they don't believe that any of that sort of info is
> >anyone else's business. Soooo, if you read profiles and expect to learn
> >anything, take them with a grain of salt.
> >
> >Of course, then again, if one had the sense god gave a rutabaga one might
> >have gotten a hint from the rest of the profile which lists my age as 99
> ><g>
> >
> >Lynda, who is pondering the question: which is worse, ignorance or
> >insecurity combined with immaturity.
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Kim" <sinclai@...>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 2:00 PM
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] RE: the flames are getting a bit high
around
> >here
> >
> >
> > > You are so right and I have had it up to here with this list! I have
> >been
> > > on this list for a few months now and it seems this list is
manipulated
> >by
> >a
> > > few very opinionated loudmouths that don't have much to say, but to
> >belittle
> > > and screw words around! When someone comes on this list that does
have
> > > something useful to say, like Valerie for example, she is shut-up and
by
> >the
> > > list moderator no doubt! This list should be called flame-schooling!
> >I
> >am
> > > going to find an unschooling list that doesn't tolerate this type of
> >thing
> > > by the moderator and allows people with something useful to say, talk.
> > > Like my mother always said, "Opinions are like assholes, everyone has
> >one
> > > and they all stink!"
> > > Good-bye to all of the nice people that are still trying to work it
out
> >and
> > > to all of the newbies that are trying to get good information, run,
run
> >as
> > > fast as you can to a real unschooling list! And good riddance to the
> > > big-mouthed, frustrated, opinionated bitches that have no life except
to
> >try
> > > to run down someone else's opinions, I feel sorry for your children!
> > > Kim
> > >
> > > p.s. Isn't it so nice to have such wonderful hobbies? This is from
> >Lynda
> > > Lurines profile:
> > >
> > >
> > > Hobbies: Squashing little twits with no life experience who think they
> >can
> > > come into chat room and demand respect and tell others how to live
their
> > > lives.
> > >
> > > Some people should really look into the mirror!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@...>
> > > Subject: the flames are getting a bit high around here
> > >
> > > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
> >hesitate
> > > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> > >
> > > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the fact
> >that
> >we
> > > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
> >solution
> >is
> > > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
methods
> >of
> > > homeschooling.
> > >
> > > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities to
> > > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
heard
> >much
> > > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously when
> > > opinions differ.
> > >
> > > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for the
> > > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
approach
> >to
> > > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is) will
> >also
> > > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to extreme
on
> > > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
etc.)
> > > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> > >
> > > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about dangers
> >(such
> > > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
> >hand,
> > > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
> >common
> > > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
tact
> >...
> > > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
strong
> > > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> > >
> > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
> >opinion,
> > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So, for
the
> > > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
are
> > > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
this
> > > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
send
> > > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together where
> > > parenting issues are the topic.
> > >
> > > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this group
> >and
> > > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames; however,
> >the
> > > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that there
> >is
> > > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
> >driving
> > > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on how
> >the
> > > unschooling method has worked for them.
> > >
> > > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mamkmm2@...
> > > Subject: Re: the flames are getting a bit high around here
> > >
> > > My apologies. I went and re-read the list description and it
> > > basically told me that if I wanted info on unschooling, I'd only get
> > > it at the website ... this list being strictly networking, etc.
> > >
> > > I still say that some of you all are way too rough with one another
> > > as concerns differing opinions ... I'm sure this is not how you would
> > > handle your own children or normal public conversation. This list
> > > could be a great place to network on unschooling info ... but its not
> > > described that way, nor has it been working that way ... so I am
> > > bowing out and taking my feet with me so that I don't trip all over
> > > them again <grin>.
> > >
> > > While I might describe this as an interesting experience, its been a
> > > bit nasty and venomously confrontational, neither of which is
> > > something that I espouse or wish my kids to learn in their
> > > homeschooling or home life.
> > >
> > > Kathy
> > >
> > > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "MICHAEL MARTINEZ" <mamkmm2@p...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > I've been reading the digests of this list for weeks now. I even
> > > hesitate
> > > > to point this out, knowing I'll probably get dumped on by some major
> > > > pyrotechnics, but here goes.
> > > >
> > > > One of the greatest factors for success of homeschooling is the
> > > fact that we
> > > > can individualize for our children and our family needs. No one
> > > solution is
> > > > going to work for each and every situation ... thus the various
> > > methods of
> > > > homeschooling.
> > > >
> > > > The flames are getting high and writers are allowing personalities
> > > to
> > > > overshadow the concept of homeschooling here. In fact, I haven't
> > > heard much
> > > > on unschooling at all ... mostly flames being sprayed venomously
> > > when
> > > > opinions differ.
> > > >
> > > > Unschooling at its very heart means complete individualization for
> > > the
> > > > child's sake. Since each child is so individual, the parental
> > > approach to
> > > > the child and the child's need (regardless of what that need is)
> > > will also
> > > > be individual. Sarcasm and irony are carrying definitions to
> > > extreme on
> > > > both sides (i.e., stress, boundaries, fundamentalism, discipline,
> > > etc.)
> > > > rather than accepting individualization needs and definitions.
> > > >
> > > > One person may have a child who never needs to be taught about
> > > dangers (such
> > > > as a hot stove) because the information seems innate. On the other
> > > hand,
> > > > this same parent may have another child who tests the boundaries of
> > > common
> > > > sense at every turn requiring a stronger discipline by the parent.
> > > > Personally I have four children and each child requires a different
> > > tact ...
> > > > from an almost hands-off approach to one that requires much more
> > > strong
> > > > boundaries of behavior and consequences.
> > > >
> > > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in my
> > > opinion,
> > > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices. So,
> > > for the
> > > > sake of the continued viability of this group and the members that
> > > are
> > > > trying to get information on unschooling and how best to implement
> > > this
> > > > approach, please either moderate your discussions to be more civil,
> > > send
> > > > your emails off-list, or take them to another list all together
> > > where
> > > > parenting issues are the topic.
> > > >
> > > > There are 505 members (number checked on 5/19) belonging to this
> > > group and
> > > > only a very small percentage are participating in the flames;
> > > however, the
> > > > small percentage doing so, are basically "shouting" so much that
> > > there is
> > > > much less opportunity to discuss the method of unschooling and are
> > > driving
> > > > away members who could really offer some wonderful suggestions on
> > > how the
> > > > unschooling method has worked for them.
> > > >
> > > > Kathy in FL mamkmm2@p...
> > >
> > >
> > > From: mamkmm2@...
> > > Subject: Sandra, I see part of your point
> > >
> > > Sandra,
> > >
> > > I do see what you are saying; however, I did say that unschooling was
> > > a way of meeting the child's needs "no matter what those needs might
> > > be" referring to whether the need was educational or otherwise ...
> > > including parental issues.
> > >
> > > And yes, I agree that unschooling requires that boundaries be
> > > explored and concepts loosened. On the other hand, it doesn't
> > > necessarily mean that ALL boundaries are transient and loose ALL the
> > > time.
> > >
> > > I successfully unschool one of my four children because that is the
> > > method that works best with her ... based on needs and
> > > personality ... but do not unschool the other three. On the other
> > > hand we have set rules and consequences in this house that some would
> > > view as authoritarian in style. So, in my personal opinion and
> > > experience, unschooling and authoritarianism do not necessarily
> > > preclude one another.
> > >
> > > As for necessity of "loosening up" ... that could well describe some
> > > of the posts to this list lately. Unschooling is not THE approach to
> > > education or parenting ... it is one of them. Some so-called
> > > most "open minded" individuals are actually writing as if they are
> > > completely closed minded in that Unschooling is the ONLY viable
> > > solution to a family and/or child's needs which I believe many would
> > > say is patently false.
> > >
> > > I posted that I had mistaken the description of this list and
> > > apologized for it. I will remain on here long enough to deal with
> > > any fall out from my original post because I feel responsible for
> > > it. It was not meant to hurt anyone's feelings but to bring into the
> > > open what I felt was a serious concern. Again, my apologies.
> > >
> > >
> > > Kathy
> > > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> > > > In a message dated 5/19/01 10:50:27 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
> > > > mamkmm2@p... writes:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A list that is supposed to be discussing unschooling is not, in
> > > my opinion,
> > > > > the best venue for discussing parenting issues and choices.
> > > >
> > > > But unschooling is a parenting issue and a parenting choice, and
> > > without
> > > > loosening some controls, parents cannot successfully unschool.
> > > Nine years
> > > > ago I might have said "might not be able to successfully unschool,"
> > > but after
> > > > years of being at, in and around unschooling, I have seen
> > > repeatedly that
> > > > families unable to loosen up don't succeed at unschooling, and
> > > families who
> > > > do succeed at unschooling loosen up in other areas.
> > > >
> > > > Options are not unlimited, and the definition of unschooing doesn't
> > > encompass
> > > > all educational options on the whole planet.
> > > >
> > > > Sandra
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> > > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> >Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> >http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> >Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> >http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
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