Brown

Hi Michele

I haven't ignored your message - I've been thinking about it a lot. And
still haven't come up with definitive answers <g>

> their choice of methods for parenting and homeshooling are one
> thing - anyone's kids being allowed to become physically aggressive
> with other kids and/or adults is another. If two children at the
> group ended up in a full blown knock down fight, would everyone just
> stand around and watch if the parents were of the mindset that they
> should be allowed to fight it out as a lesson? what if one of the
> kids drew a knife out of nowhere (or worse yet, the unspeakable!),
> what then? why should "one hit on the head" done in an obviously
> aggressive manner be any different? being inclusive and respectful
> of everyone's parenting or homeschooling methods should not mean that
> anyone (or their kids) should have to endure physical attacks of
> aggression - i'm sorry.... spirited, gifted, ADD... that is no
> longer the issue here. the issue is that this aggressive behavior is
> not only being tolerated at someone else's expense, but by allowing
> it, it is encouraging the fact that it's okay to treat others this
> way and a means to get your own way! this is not right IMO under any
> circumstances!

I can't imagine anyone not trying to intervene if a kid drew a knife or a
gun. Yet there is a continuum of behaviours that lead to that point, and it
seems there is almost as great a continuum of parental attitudes. Line
drawing is very difficult. The mother of this particular child is a very
thoughtful person who believes very strongly that her children need to learn
to be assertive in their own right, that children should learn to live and
manage their own lives. She has seen for herself the problems that develop
when a child is totally managed / protected by its mother. She wants to see
the children sort out problems for themselves. She would have no problem in
me telling her son I don't like being hit on the head. Or my son telling
hers he doesn't want to be strangled. She just doesn't notice that he
doesn't listen, nor that he is much bigger and stronger than other kids his
age.

> it's nice that the group is inclusive of all parenting and
> homeschooling styles but i think it does need a couple "house rules"
> that everyone should have to abide by. how each parent enforces
> those rules with thier children is where the everyone else's respect
> of the choice of that parent's style comes into play.

But who makes the house rules?

> no, why should your family be impositioned or deprived of utilizing
> the benefits of a group because some kids are being allowed to be
> physical and hurt others? I used to take Sterling to a playgroup at
> the local gymnastics center. it's intent was to give the kids safe
> equipment and area to play in, to learn their social skills when
> playing with other kids, and to give parents the environment to be
> able to teach their kids these things. the playgroup was for 2-6 yo.
> the rules were simple - no running, no physical contact (hitting,
> pushing, shoving),

Our group has kids from 0 - 17, and includes a range of acivities including
sports. That does make it difficult to make definitive rules that can be
understood by all ages <sigh>. And again, people's ideas about social skills
differ considerably.

> parents were to be with their kids at all times,
> parents would ensure their kids were following the rules (no matter
> what parenting style they chose to use to enforce them).

Some parents don't believe a parent should 'enforce' anything on children.

> <cut> There was a monitor present at all times
> and everyone knew that if a child continually broke the rules and the
> parent was not doing anything about it, that the monitor could
> intervene and they could also be asked to leave if the parent did not
> want to participate in keeping the group enjoyable for everyone by
> controlling their child.

And that is what I have decided is the crux of the matter. We are a group of
very independant people and we try to operate as a cooperative, and as a
consequence have no-one that every one agrees is 'in charge'.

> With everyone knowing these expectations,
> it was a fun place for the kids to go. but kids will be kids and i
> think every single child at some time or another lashed out
> inappropriately. however, it was dealt with immediately because of
> the rules that were in place and everyone was able to get past it
> quickly, put it behind, and enjoy the rest of the session. in a
> nutshell, learning to treat others the way you want to be treated and
> making sure no one gets physically hurt and having fun, was the basis
> of the group.
>
> Perhaps this is the philosophy that needs to be adopted by the group
> and implementing any rules necessary for that philosophy to
> materialize. after all, isn't part of homeschooling teaching values
> and respect for others?

Weeell - I have met people who are in it solely for academic reasons, and
for whom values seem to be remote! And those who tell their children they
can't associate with mine because we are evil atheists - I personally
wouldn't call that respect - at least we don't have to contend with that
group at our activities! <g>

> i have a question about the group. what is it's purpose? is it a
> meeting to discuss homeschooling issues? is it a social setting for
> kids to play? is it a learning session for kids to get together and
> help each other academically?

It is a social session, held in a church complex which has a gym where the
older kids can play basketball, dance etc., a small outside area with a
trampoline, a sandpit and water for the younger ones, plus rooms to paint,
play cards, board games....., and a place for homeschooling mothers to get
together and network. Sounds great, doesn't it? And it is, a lot of the
time, I realise as I'm typing. And it seems very important to me to have a
place that is inclusive, so that people can come along freely, and perhaps
have their eyes opened to other ways of doing things.
But...... <sigh>

> no, i don't think you're a coward. perhaps a little over-cautious
> to not make waves

Oh Michelle, if you knew how many people would die laughing to hear
'over-cautious' suggested of me! But perhaps you're right - after 13 years
of winning the homeschooling golden spoon award for stirring, maybe I've
tired of making enemies <g> (?? Do you use that expession 'stirring'? As in
stirring up trouble??)

> for the group or appear to go against the
> principles of the group? perhaps the principles of the group need to
> be better defined. how long has this group existed?

Just this year, although it arose out of a previous group that had been
going about 8 years, and only stopped because the venue was no longer
available.

I think maybe I'm getting too old and weary to be tolerant. Maybe I've
passed the age of inclusiveness, democracy and cooperation and I just need
to start another group where I can be dictator and make the rules on a take
it or leave it basis?

Thanks, anyway, Michelle, for pushing me into thinking more clearly about
what is bothering me.

Carol

Michele Moss

> From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
> From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
>
> Hi Michele
>
> I haven't ignored your message - I've been thinking about it a lot.
> And still haven't come up with definitive answers <g>

oh no, i figured you were as busy as i've been this week. <G> and
i'm still trying to get used to the volume of posts that come through
this list. so i didn't think anything of it!

The mother of this
> particular child is a very thoughtful person who believes very
> strongly that her children need to learn to be assertive in their
> own right, that children should learn to live and manage their own
> lives.

i agree that children should learn to live and manage their own
lives too. i am raising Sterling to be as independent and
self-sufficient as he possibly can be and to learn to solve his own
problems. However, let's think about this for a moment. in fact,
let's take out the homeschooling variable for a minute to simplify
this even more. Regardless of how much you would like to let
children figure out things on their own, they still guidance from
somewhere as the basis for figuring out those things on their own.
the have not lived long enough to have experienced enough of the world
around them to always enough information yet to make sound decisions.
that's not to say that we should give them the answers or enforce
control over their every move... no, that would be managing thier
lives for them while they learn nothing by always being told what to
do and when.

She has seen for herself the problems that develop when a
> child is totally managed / protected by its mother. She wants to see
> the children sort out problems for themselves.

right... "totally managed/protected". i think we are talking
extremes here - all or nothing. don't you think there should be some
happy medium somewhere in between? we provide "guidance" to an
infant in learning lots of new skills. Before we know they are
capable, we do certain things for them - feed them, change their
diapers, etc. We hope that they will learn to feed themselves. Do
we withhold food so that they will learn how to feed themselves when
they are starving enough? NO! We provide the guidance initially
while gradually shifting the responsibility over to them for figuring
it out themselves once we know they are armed with the information
needed to figure it out on their own.

if a child goes to grab a sharp knife, do we let them do it and cut
their finger off for the sake of "letting them figure things out on
their own"? not hardly.

Stepping in and providing guidance at critical milestones of
growing up does not take away thier opportunity to figure things out
on their own and make their own decisions, it enhances it!

She would have no
> problem in me telling her son I don't like being hit on the head. Or
> my son telling hers he doesn't want to be strangled. She just
> doesn't notice that he doesn't listen, nor that he is much bigger
> and stronger than other kids his age.
>
> But who makes the house rules?
>
well, after reading down through the rest of your message and
learning more about the group, then i would say everyone collectively
should make the house rules. and i hate to use the word rules but
actually that's real life! everywhere you go, there are rules and
even unschooled children need to learn that - whether they figure it
out themselves or not, what better place to practice? If they are
served some rules in the group it gives them a chance to figure it
out for themselves in a more neutral environment before going out in
the real world to be crudely awakened on unfamiliar ground. let's
face it, there are rules everywhere we go! and breaking some of
those rules can have some pretty serious consequences!

> Our group has kids from 0 - 17, and includes a range of acivities
> including sports. That does make it difficult to make definitive
> rules that can be understood by all ages <sigh>. And again, people's
> ideas about social skills differ considerably.
>
well, i'm not suggesting that there has to be a lot of complicated
ridiculous rules. i think it would undermind the purpose of the
group! and too many rules... well then you might as well send them
to school where they even have to go pee by the rules. (sorry so
crude but hey.) just some basic rules that encourage respect for
others - no hitting or shoving. are there not at least some rules
already like "no fighting"? maybe that is too general for a younger
child to grasp. and some forms of hitting are not done within the
scope of fighting, but in other aggressive means like to get
someone's attention. a younger child understands no hitting. if you
can't hit, you can't fight but also if you can't hit, you can't
physically disrespect someone.

> Some parents don't believe a parent should 'enforce' anything on
> children.
>
Enforce might be a strong word. maybe direct or guide would be
more appropriate.

> And that is what I have decided is the crux of the matter. We are a
> group of very independant people and we try to operate as a
> cooperative, and as a consequence have no-one that every one agrees
> is 'in charge'.
>
i can understand this philosophy too... and i think it's great if it
works out.

> It is a social session, held in a church complex which has a gym
> where the older kids can play basketball, dance etc., a small
> outside area with a trampoline, a sandpit and water for the younger
> ones, plus rooms to paint, play cards, board games....., and a place
> for homeschooling mothers to get together and network. Sounds great,
> doesn't it?

yes! and as i was reading i found myself wishing there was
something like that here!

And it is, a lot of the time, I realise as I'm typing.
> And it seems very important to me to have a place that is inclusive,
> so that people can come along freely, and perhaps have their eyes
> opened to other ways of doing things. But...... <sigh>
>
but then if you have to ask yourself whether you would feel
comfortable bringing someone, then i guess it doesn't fit the bill of
inclusive anymore, does it?

> Oh Michelle, if you knew how many people would die laughing to hear
> 'over-cautious' suggested of me! But perhaps you're right - after 13
> years of winning the homeschooling golden spoon award for stirring,
> maybe I've tired of making enemies <g> (?? Do you use that
> expession 'stirring'? As in stirring up trouble??)
>
happy to be of service and add some giggles to your day! <G> i
haven't heard the expression "stirring up" in your context in a long
time. my mom used to use it all the time though!
>
> I think maybe I'm getting too old and weary to be tolerant. Maybe
> I've passed the age of inclusiveness, democracy and cooperation and
> I just need to start another group where I can be dictator and make
> the rules on a take it or leave it basis?
>
h-m-m-m-m-m. no comment! <G>

> Thanks, anyway, Michelle, for pushing me into thinking more clearly
> about what is bothering me.
>
> Carol
>
well, we certainly have a book going here don't we!

Michele Moss
Mom of Sterling Tyler age 3 yrs old
Parents of Spirited Kids Resource Web site:
http://www.icstech.net/~michele
Parents of Spirited Kids Discussion Group:
http://www.egroups.com/list/psk