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In a message dated 8/14/99 6:44:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, baosjo@...
writes:

<< I also agree with whomever
said spelling is important. This is one of my pet peeves, poor spelling. >>

This message is in response not just to this one, but to the others who
posted about handwriting or "good" (I would say "standard") grammar being
"important." I think it's fine for all of us to discuss our pet peeves but
there's a world of difference between acknowledging that something bugs us
and between saying it's "important" to know it.

My understanding of unschooling is that it's up to the person who is learning
to determine what is important, not anyone else. You may find a closer, more
spiritual connection to words through handwriting, but I may not. Therefore,
it is not important for me to learn beautiful handwriting. The same is true
of spelling or grammar.

So, what, academically, do people on this list think is really important to
learn? Important enough that if your child wasn't learning it through
unschooling means you would actually sit him or her down and teach her in
whatever way worked? And why?

Elizabeth

Michele Moss

> From: Evalsquid@...
>
I think it's fine for all of us to
> discuss our pet peeves but there's a world of difference between
> acknowledging that something bugs us and between saying it's
> "important" to know it.
>
> So, what, academically, do people on this list think is really
> important to learn? Important enough that if your child wasn't
> learning it through unschooling means you would actually sit him or
> her down and teach her in whatever way worked? And why?
>
> Elizabeth
>
whew! i had to really think about this! My first impulsive
thought was "nothing" academically. there is nothing academically
that i would actually sit down and teach him if he wasn't asking to
be taught or learning on his own. What i would teach however, is
that it is more important to know "where" to find the answers when
you need them than it is to "know" all the answers. then i caught
myself and argued "but DUH! if one does not know how to read, then
how would they be able to process the information they found". so i
guess my answer would be "reading". i would be sure to sit down and
teach him reading if it didn't happen of his own accord. and
so then i went "oh DUH!" AGAIN! this is in direct contradiction to my
first and foremost in importance - to know "where" to find the
answers! well... all the answers aren't exclusively in a readable
format! there are so many other ways to learn what you want to know
- especially in today's visually multi-media rich society. therefore, it
would be more important for him to know where to find the answers on
how to learn to read than the actual act of knowing how to read.

my, that was hard for me to say! i hope it doesn't sound as
confusing as it was for me to try and say it.


Michele Moss
Mom of Sterling Tyler age 3 yrs old
Parents of Spirited Kids Resource Web site:
http://www.icstech.net/~michele
Parents of Spirited Kids Discussion Group:
http://www.egroups.com/list/psk

Andi Kaufman

Elizabeth wrote:
>So, what, academically, do people on this list think is really important to
>learn? Important enough that if your child wasn't learning it through
>unschooling means you would actually sit him or her down and teach her in
>whatever way worked? And why?

I consider the most important thing for a child to leanr to be how to
learn. We as parents or as educators can not tach children everything they
need to know in life but if they know hwo to gather info and make decisions
then they have the resourses available to learn what they need to learn to
learn at any given time.

just cus i unschool doesnt not mean that i do not think thre are things
isaac should learn.

I think learning to read is very important but i think it can be learned in
many ways and that is where unschooling comes in. I want isaac to learn it
int he best way for him.

I think basic math concepts are important too. but the same goes kids learn
them in many different ways. Isaac has no idea how to memorize a multi
chart but he can figure out any multi problem cus he understands the
concept.

I also think everydau living is important, like how to find a dr, where to
get maps. how to cook and clean and basica household tasks. these are
things isaac learns every day. he knows that a cook books has info that i
use and he can feed himself and cook at age 9. he knows about germs and
cleanliness and how to keep thinsg clean.

I also think imagination and experimentation is important. to practice
trying to figure things out and the have the time to think about them.

Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...

Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!

Brown

Hi Elizabeth and Andi and all


> Elizabeth wrote:
> >So, what, academically, do people on this list think is really important to
> >learn? Important enough that if your child wasn't learning it through
> >unschooling means you would actually sit him or her down and teach her in
> >whatever way worked? And why?

I'm not sure there is anything academic that is really important for everyone to
learn. It all depends on the person. I believe that whatever the person is
learning it has to be important to him / her not to me or anyone else.

Andy wrote:

> I consider the most important thing for a child to leanr to be how to
> learn. We as parents or as educators can not tach children everything they
> need to know in life but if they know hwo to gather info and make decisions
> then they have the resourses available to learn what they need to learn to
> learn at any given time.

Yes, I'll agree that's pretty high on my list.

> just cus i unschool doesnt not mean that i do not think thre are things
> isaac should learn.

Yes, everyone needs to learn something - just try and stop them!

> I think learning to read is very important but i think it can be learned in
> many ways and that is where unschooling comes in. I want isaac to learn it
> int he best way for him.

What is the worst thing that can happen even if s/he never leans to read? What
if s/he had some degree of brain damage that simply didn't allow it to happen?
Would s/he still be a worthwhile person?

> I think basic math concepts are important too. but the same goes kids learn
> them in many different ways. Isaac has no idea how to memorize a multi
> chart but he can figure out any multi problem cus he understands the
> concept.

Same as previous comment.

> I also think everydau living is important, like how to find a dr, where to
> get maps. how to cook and clean and basica household tasks. these are
> things isaac learns every day. he knows that a cook books has info that i
> use and he can feed himself and cook at age 9. he knows about germs and
> cleanliness and how to keep thinsg clean.
>
> I also think imagination and experimentation is important. to practice
> trying to figure things out and the have the time to think about them.

Same comments as above. You see, I think that the most important thing they can
learn is that they are loved and worthy of being loved. That there is someone
who loves them, that trusts them to be able to do the best they can, and who
will be there to help them if / when they need help. And that applies even if
your child is virtually non-functioning, brain-damaged whatever. They need to
learn that they are loved.

Learning to read doesn't matter a damn by comparison. There are astonishing
numbers of successful people out there that can't read. I'm sure, given the
choice they'd rather be able to read, but not at the cost of feeling bad about
themselves. And there a lot of people in the world today who feel like failures
because they were made to feel bad when they couldn't read / compute /
write...... at the 'normal' age.

Just by living with you, your children will learn what is important to you, and
to the sort of life you lead. And it's fine to let them know what you think is
important. But I feel that academics are just a tool to help people build a
successful, happy life, and so it seems silly to place the emphasis on the tool
rather than the outcome.

Carol

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> So, what, academically, do people on this list think is really important to
> learn? Important enough that if your child wasn't learning it through
> unschooling means you would actually sit him or her down and teach her in
> whatever way worked? And why?
>
I have two teenagers and the only thing I have felt this way about is
basic sex education and health issues. I bought good books and let
them unschool as much of it as they would, but I also felt it was my
responsibility that they be informed.



Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...

[email protected]

Elizabeth wrote:
> >So, what, academically, do people on this list think is really important
to
> >learn? Important enough that if your child wasn't learning it through
> >unschooling means you would actually sit him or her down and teach her in
> >whatever way worked? And why?
>>>>

Most things really important enough to sit down to learn, you CAN'T sit down
to learn. You have to get out and practice them, see them in action, find
their purpose first.

You can't drill desire/determination into a person y'know...and it takes
those things in order to develop self-discipline in any arena.
Jmo.

Steph

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/1999 18:09:28. Eastern Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<< Same comments as above. You see, I think that the most important thing
they can
learn is that they are loved and worthy of being loved. That there is someone
who loves them, that trusts them to be able to do the best they can, and who
will be there to help them if / when they need help. And that applies even if
your child is virtually non-functioning, brain-damaged whatever. They need to
learn that they are loved. >>

I think you hit the nail on the head. I kind of ran headfirst into this one,
because my second child has some fairly significant neurological damage. He
is just learning to walk at nearly four, and speaks only a few barely
recogizable words. I originally tried going to the local early intervention
program with him, but just came out nauseated by constant testing and
comparing and the complete lack of actually paying attention to the child at
hand. They are constantly trying to teach these babies things they are
nowhere near interested in yet and in which the kids are completely passive
participants. But they always exclaimed when Gordon finally got to something
about the dedication and enthusiasm with which he pursued it. (Basically
just normal baby "time to work on this" monomania.) They kept telling me
these children were completely incapable of learning anything on their own
motivation, which is why they had to step in and push on skill p, even though
the child showed no interest in doing anything except working on skill h, and
hadn't any of the precursors to skill p. They tried to get Gordon walking
before he could crawl though he showed an interest in crawling and collapsed
in a heap about walking. This, in the name of "catching up".
So I blithely got into unschooling with kid 1, who began reading the
newspaper over my shoulder at 3, figuring that if no one learned anything for
a few years life would still be great. And now I am biting my nails
unschooling with kid 2 hoping it works out keeping him far from this system
that wants him to do everything but what he can. I want him to keep his
motivation, his sense of success, his job as the active instigator and not
the passive follower. I want him to be able to be himself without any sense
that he was supposed to be something else. There are machines that will read
to you these days, (once Mom's gone on her way). There are programs that
will write what you say. There are calculators. But I don't think there's a
technofix for a broken spirit yet.

Karen, (with Helen, 6, Agent of Chaos, and Gordon, 3, Agent of Destruction)

Brown

Hi Karen

> <cut> I want him to be able to be himself without any sense
> that he was supposed to be something else. There are machines that will read
> to you these days, (once Mom's gone on her way). There are programs that
> will write what you say. There are calculators. But I don't think there's a
> technofix for a broken spirit yet.

Go for it! You've got your priorities just right IMO

Carol

Joel Hawthorne

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto!

Brown wrote:

> From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
>
> Hi Karen
>
> > <cut> I want him to be able to be himself without any sense
> > that he was supposed to be something else. There are machines that will read
> > to you these days, (once Mom's gone on her way). There are programs that
> > will write what you say. There are calculators. But I don't think there's a
> > technofix for a broken spirit yet.
>
> Go for it! You've got your priorities just right IMO
>
> Carol
>
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best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

[email protected]

Thanks for all the votes of confidence. They mean a lot, with the world at
large convinced I am wasting those all-important early years. Funny thing,
people aren't nearly impressed enough with his amazing abilities at bookcase
emptying, child-proof top opening, food smearing and toy flinging. :-)

Karen

Andi Kaufman

hi carol,

you have really made me think.

you wrote:
>What is the worst thing that can happen even if s/he never leans to read? What
>if s/he had some degree of brain damage that simply didn't allow it to happen?
>Would s/he still be a worthwhile person?

of course. you are right. a person can and is worthwhile even if they are
unable to master those concepts/ there is an inate worthwhileness.

I am saying, and maybe i didnt make it clearn that I am talkinag about
isaac and my plans for my child.

I totally agree that the most important things a child can learn is that
they are loved. I take that as a given. I have to remeber that many people
dont.

>Just by living with you, your children will learn what is important to
>you, and
>to the sort of life you lead. And it's fine to let them know what you think is
>important. But I feel that academics are just a tool to help people build a
>successful, happy life, and so it seems silly to place the emphasis on the
>tool
>rather than the outcome.

what do you consider academics? I may be confused or not understand the
specifics. I do not segragate learning into academic vs non academic. i
think learning how to live and do things is more important then math but i
feel that it is necesary to learn what you can to take care of yourself.

Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...

Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/14/99 3:09:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<< Just by living with you, your children will learn what is important to
you, and
to the sort of life you lead. And it's fine to let them know what you think
is
important. But I feel that academics are just a tool to help people build a
successful, happy life, and so it seems silly to place the emphasis on the
tool
rather than the outcome. >>

Carol, this is exactly what I was meaning. Thank you for your post. (And
thank you, Karen, for your story as well.) I'm certainly not saying that
some academic things aren't important to *me* but I'm very wary of the idea
of saying they are "important" as a blanket statement.

I do understand the postings people have made about such basic things as
reading, learning where to find information, etc. and I admit that if my
child isn't reading at age 9, I'll start getting a little ancy myself. But I
still think at the heart of things is that individual's desire to learn
something and their own perceived need of it for their life. Not mine.

Elizabeth

Brown

Karen

LOL - where I would be without children to get those childproof caps off, I
don't know. I always struggle with them <g>

Carol

Cunian@... wrote:

> From: Cunian@...
>
> Thanks for all the votes of confidence. They mean a lot, with the world at
> large convinced I am wasting those all-important early years. Funny thing,
> people aren't nearly impressed enough with his amazing abilities at bookcase
> emptying, child-proof top opening, food smearing and toy flinging. :-)
>
> Karen

[email protected]

I feel the most important things for a child to learn are:
To love God and to love others. If they are taught these two simple things,
they cannot go wrong in their lives. Love is the key in our house!
Lori in TX

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

I agree...So simple, and yet difficult. Example is the best teacher for
this...
Susan
>From: RRAINENJ@...
>
>I feel the most important things for a child to learn are:
>To love God and to love others. If they are taught these two simple things,
>they cannot go wrong in their lives. Love is the key in our house!
>Lori in TX
>
>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
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Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

At 12:56 PM 8/15/99 EDT, you wrote:
>From: Cunian@...
>
>Thanks for all the votes of confidence. They mean a lot, with the world at
>large convinced I am wasting those all-important early years. Funny thing,
>people aren't nearly impressed enough with his amazing abilities at bookcase
>emptying, child-proof top opening, food smearing and toy flinging. :-)
>
> Karen

Those should be Olympic sports for toddlers. With two in my house (Sons 16
and 30 months each) I see plenty of all of the above!

Nanci K. in Idaho

mrstar

.> Funny thing,
>people aren't nearly impressed enough with his amazing abilities at
bookcase
>emptying, child-proof top opening, food smearing and toy flinging. :-)
>
> Karen

<<<Those should be Olympic sports for toddlers. With two in my house (Sons
16
and 30 months each) I see plenty of all of the above!

Nanci K. in Idaho>>>


Just wait! They graduate from these world class sports to wall coloring,
table jumping, and food loosing (leaving apple core in clean laundry basket
etc;) and door frame climbing. My kids are gold medallists.

Mary in Idaho (Olympic coach to Samuel-7, Kenna-5, Sebastian-4.5, Piper
Elizabeth-3, and Alanna-2)

Jeff & Diane Gwirtz

> Diane, would you mind sharing some titles that helped your kids? My almost
> 13 yr. old really responds to gleaning info. from books, but so many of the
> sex ed. type I've found are either too dry or too graphic or too silly.
> Thanks in advance.
>
Our favorites were _What's Happening to My Body? by Lynda Madaras.
There's a book for boys and one for girls, as well as newer
workbooks. They are definitely not dry, but they may be too graphic
for some families. They are very straightforward and include
information on topics such as homosexuality, birth control, and
sexually transmitted diseases. We're very open and accepting in our
home and discuss all topics, but not everyone would be comfortable
with these, I'm sure.

Diane from KS
jagwirtz@...

[email protected]

Diane wrote...

<< I have two teenagers and the only thing I have felt this way about is
basic sex education and health issues. I bought good books and let
them unschool as much of it as they would, but I also felt it was my
responsibility that they be informed.

>>

Diane, would you mind sharing some titles that helped your kids? My almost
13 yr. old really responds to gleaning info. from books, but so many of the
sex ed. type I've found are either too dry or too graphic or too silly.
Thanks in advance.
I'm responding late to this, so if you've already posted these, just ignore
this!
Carol B.

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

--
I really like Usborne's book entitled Growing Up.
Susan


>From: Burkfamily@...
>
>Diane wrote...
>
><< I have two teenagers and the only thing I have felt this way about is
> basic sex education and health issues. I bought good books and let
> them unschool as much of it as they would, but I also felt it was my
> responsibility that they be informed.
>
> >>
>
>Diane, would you mind sharing some titles that helped your kids? My almost
>13 yr. old really responds to gleaning info. from books, but so many of the
>sex ed. type I've found are either too dry or too graphic or too silly.
>Thanks in advance.
>I'm responding late to this, so if you've already posted these, just ignore
>this!
>Carol B.
>
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>Check out the FRIENDS & FAMILY program to find out how.
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>