Re: Penmanship
Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall
At 02:03 AM 8/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
handwriting? How much does the quality of your handwriting really affect
your life? When I think about all of the people whose handwriting I am
familiar with, only one brother and myself (both writers) have good
penmanship. I think that is mostly due to our love of written language, as
well as a great deal more practice than most folks have nad (ie: writiing
letters, keeping journals, writing stories, etc..)
Nanci K. in Idaho
>From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>Handwriting is, in fact, a great place to drive everyone totally nuts.
Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
>intentioned "teachers" putting pressure on them. Leave it be. This isof course very much from the unschooling perspective.
OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
handwriting? How much does the quality of your handwriting really affect
your life? When I think about all of the people whose handwriting I am
familiar with, only one brother and myself (both writers) have good
penmanship. I think that is mostly due to our love of written language, as
well as a great deal more practice than most folks have nad (ie: writiing
letters, keeping journals, writing stories, etc..)
Nanci K. in Idaho
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/99 3:25:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
type very quickly because I do almost all my writing at a computer. When I
do write with a pen or pencil I almost always print. I've never enjoyed
writing cursive.
I think it would be kind of cool if I had really beautiful handwriting. I
sometimes have fantasies about writing letters in an elegant script to my
distant friends filled with Proustian descriptions of my life and
surroundings. And my friends would keep all these letters and someday after
my demise they would be compiled into a best-selling book and people would
say, "Wow, I wish I had known her." But even if I could write beautifully
I'd probably never find the time to actually do this. ;-)
On a more serious note, I will say that occasionally I have to grade papers
from a student with *terrible* handwriting and this drives me crazy. That's
probably the one way that penmanship really does affect my life.
Elizabeth
tn-k4of5@... writes:
> OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICEMy handwriting is ok, generally legible, but not what I'd call pretty. I
> handwriting? How much does the quality of your handwriting really affect
> your life?
type very quickly because I do almost all my writing at a computer. When I
do write with a pen or pencil I almost always print. I've never enjoyed
writing cursive.
I think it would be kind of cool if I had really beautiful handwriting. I
sometimes have fantasies about writing letters in an elegant script to my
distant friends filled with Proustian descriptions of my life and
surroundings. And my friends would keep all these letters and someday after
my demise they would be compiled into a best-selling book and people would
say, "Wow, I wish I had known her." But even if I could write beautifully
I'd probably never find the time to actually do this. ;-)
On a more serious note, I will say that occasionally I have to grade papers
from a student with *terrible* handwriting and this drives me crazy. That's
probably the one way that penmanship really does affect my life.
Elizabeth
Joel Hawthorne
I have wretched handwriting. Legible but ugly. I am a nurse and have to chart
all the time. It'll pass in court but win no beauty contests. They constantly
harassed me throughout school and I think I probably rebelled against it by
"trying" to improve my handwriting (not) very hard. But I am employable
nonetheless.
Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall wrote:
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
all the time. It'll pass in court but win no beauty contests. They constantly
harassed me throughout school and I think I probably rebelled against it by
"trying" to improve my handwriting (not) very hard. But I am employable
nonetheless.
Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall wrote:
> From: Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall <tn-k4of5@...>--
>
> At 02:03 AM 8/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >From: Joel Hawthorne <jhawthorne@...>
> Handwriting is, in fact, a great place to drive everyone totally nuts.
> Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
> >intentioned "teachers" putting pressure on them. Leave it be. This is
> of course very much from the unschooling perspective.
>
> OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
> handwriting? How much does the quality of your handwriting really affect
> your life? When I think about all of the people whose handwriting I am
> familiar with, only one brother and myself (both writers) have good
> penmanship. I think that is mostly due to our love of written language, as
> well as a great deal more practice than most folks have nad (ie: writiing
> letters, keeping journals, writing stories, etc..)
>
> Nanci K. in Idaho
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to online communities.
>
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> Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/12/1999 6:25:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<<
OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
handwriting? >>
Here's a weird little personal factoid: When I was in school, I was taught
cursive...I did OK, had a pretty nice "hand" and all that. But my writing
NOW is so totally different...kind of a mix between printing/writing...closer
to D'Nealian (sp) than anything I was taught....it even slants
differently...almost backhand. This writing didn't "emerge" until I got
older and grew into my real self! Our fundraising group always has me do
signs, etc., because I "have such nice handwriting"!!!
Speaking of D'Nealian, when my dd was in kindergarten (the only formal IS
she's had) the teacher taught them this as a link between printing and
writing. Her grandma had already taught her to write in cursive, and she
already knew how to print in manuscript, so this made 3 ways for this child
to write. I then took her out of IS and began to homeschool her with the
Calvert curriculum (OK, so I didn't know better but I was just beginning,
remember?) THEY wanted her to learn "Calvert Script". I wrote them back and
said that she already knew 3 different kinds of writing and I didn't see the
necessity for a 4th. They then gave me the exquisite explanation of "Those
are our rules and we request that she use Calvert Script when doing her work"
. That was the beginning of the end for Calvert!!!
Sam
(Hoping she didn't insult anyone who's using Calvert )
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<<
OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
handwriting? >>
Here's a weird little personal factoid: When I was in school, I was taught
cursive...I did OK, had a pretty nice "hand" and all that. But my writing
NOW is so totally different...kind of a mix between printing/writing...closer
to D'Nealian (sp) than anything I was taught....it even slants
differently...almost backhand. This writing didn't "emerge" until I got
older and grew into my real self! Our fundraising group always has me do
signs, etc., because I "have such nice handwriting"!!!
Speaking of D'Nealian, when my dd was in kindergarten (the only formal IS
she's had) the teacher taught them this as a link between printing and
writing. Her grandma had already taught her to write in cursive, and she
already knew how to print in manuscript, so this made 3 ways for this child
to write. I then took her out of IS and began to homeschool her with the
Calvert curriculum (OK, so I didn't know better but I was just beginning,
remember?) THEY wanted her to learn "Calvert Script". I wrote them back and
said that she already knew 3 different kinds of writing and I didn't see the
necessity for a 4th. They then gave me the exquisite explanation of "Those
are our rules and we request that she use Calvert Script when doing her work"
. That was the beginning of the end for Calvert!!!
Sam
(Hoping she didn't insult anyone who's using Calvert )
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/12/1999 6:25:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< ndwriting is, in fact, a great place to drive everyone totally nuts.
Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
this. (My mother told them to leave me be!). But I was contantly criticized
for smearing pencil across the paper.
when my dd wanted to learn cursive, she insisted on a workbook, which she
did for a short while. We talked about how everyone is different and so
everyone's handwriting is different. That she would develop her own style and
that the best way to learn cursive is to write in cursive. She and a friend
decided to write to each other (it's fun getting mail).
Her handwriting is often clearer than mine!! Now she's teaching herself
calligraphy. No pressure, no struggle, just living with the process.
Debra in OH
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<< ndwriting is, in fact, a great place to drive everyone totally nuts.
Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
>intentioned "teachers" putting pressure on them. Leave it be. This isof course very much from the unschooling perspective.
>>I am a lefty. This made many teachers unhappy and they tried to change
this. (My mother told them to leave me be!). But I was contantly criticized
for smearing pencil across the paper.
when my dd wanted to learn cursive, she insisted on a workbook, which she
did for a short while. We talked about how everyone is different and so
everyone's handwriting is different. That she would develop her own style and
that the best way to learn cursive is to write in cursive. She and a friend
decided to write to each other (it's fun getting mail).
Her handwriting is often clearer than mine!! Now she's teaching herself
calligraphy. No pressure, no struggle, just living with the process.
Debra in OH
mrstar
I couldn't think slow enough for my pen to keep up. I remember when I was in
the first grade, I had been placed in a special class that year. There were
too many students so they made a new class out of the sharpest tacks in the
box. (This is back before my brain turned to mush) I remember knowing I was
bright and that expectations were high. I did really well, sometimes the
best in the class, in every subject, but one....Penmanship!!! I tried and
tried to make neat little block letters like Tina and Wayne but no matter
how hard I tried or how much time I put into it I couldn't get more than a
few neat little letters on the page before it would degenerate into crooked
curves. I guess this is a point about penmanship and the 'gifted' label
because not being able to write neatly like all the other little drones
really messed with me. In the 6th grade I remember Gene and I were the very
brightest math students. We always turned our papers in first and always had
the most answers right, even the story problems (in 9th grade algebra when
the teacher would post on the board that 1 or 2 students had got a really
high score the whole class would yell Mary and/or Gene) BUT, no matter how
hard I tried, no matter how fast I went, Gene always got his done just a
hair faster and such pretty, neat little numbers and symbols! My math sheet
would always be so messy. This was the year I discovered that even though I
was the brightest in math, English, reading, science and especially social
studies (teacher gave essay questions, my specialty) I ranked in the middle
or below on SPELLING. In the fifth grade I was also the third to the last to
memorize my times tables. By the way, I dropped out of high school in the
middle of the 10th grade because my GPA went from a 3.84 (not a 4. I got a
B in Home Ec because I didn't want to study meat. sheesh) to a 3.31 between
the first quarter and the second because I just couldn't take it anymore.
The one way I was special, my 'giftedness' was failing me and there was no
more reason to go to that horrid place.
Conclusion-Can you tell I am a poor speller? Have really lousy penmanship?
Would it lower your estimation of me if you could? Would I care? What really
matters anyway? That I know my times tables or that I am a kind person? That
I was a 'gifted' student or respectful? That I can earn a scholarship or
honors or whatever or that I can tell the difference between right and
wrong, and choose right. Parenting isn't about making sure our kids can
spell, write legibly, memorize times tables, or answer essay questions. It
is about nurturing, loving, sharing, giving, providing a safe place to
explore the world. The rest will fall into place.
Mary in Idaho (who thinks every question is an essay question and thanks God
for this great computer else no
one would be able to read this <g>)
the first grade, I had been placed in a special class that year. There were
too many students so they made a new class out of the sharpest tacks in the
box. (This is back before my brain turned to mush) I remember knowing I was
bright and that expectations were high. I did really well, sometimes the
best in the class, in every subject, but one....Penmanship!!! I tried and
tried to make neat little block letters like Tina and Wayne but no matter
how hard I tried or how much time I put into it I couldn't get more than a
few neat little letters on the page before it would degenerate into crooked
curves. I guess this is a point about penmanship and the 'gifted' label
because not being able to write neatly like all the other little drones
really messed with me. In the 6th grade I remember Gene and I were the very
brightest math students. We always turned our papers in first and always had
the most answers right, even the story problems (in 9th grade algebra when
the teacher would post on the board that 1 or 2 students had got a really
high score the whole class would yell Mary and/or Gene) BUT, no matter how
hard I tried, no matter how fast I went, Gene always got his done just a
hair faster and such pretty, neat little numbers and symbols! My math sheet
would always be so messy. This was the year I discovered that even though I
was the brightest in math, English, reading, science and especially social
studies (teacher gave essay questions, my specialty) I ranked in the middle
or below on SPELLING. In the fifth grade I was also the third to the last to
memorize my times tables. By the way, I dropped out of high school in the
middle of the 10th grade because my GPA went from a 3.84 (not a 4. I got a
B in Home Ec because I didn't want to study meat. sheesh) to a 3.31 between
the first quarter and the second because I just couldn't take it anymore.
The one way I was special, my 'giftedness' was failing me and there was no
more reason to go to that horrid place.
Conclusion-Can you tell I am a poor speller? Have really lousy penmanship?
Would it lower your estimation of me if you could? Would I care? What really
matters anyway? That I know my times tables or that I am a kind person? That
I was a 'gifted' student or respectful? That I can earn a scholarship or
honors or whatever or that I can tell the difference between right and
wrong, and choose right. Parenting isn't about making sure our kids can
spell, write legibly, memorize times tables, or answer essay questions. It
is about nurturing, loving, sharing, giving, providing a safe place to
explore the world. The rest will fall into place.
Mary in Idaho (who thinks every question is an essay question and thanks God
for this great computer else no
one would be able to read this <g>)
Cats Meow
I feel like someone has to stand up for beautiful handwriting, so .... here
I go:-) I remember being forced to take classes to improve my handwriting
when I was around 13 years old. Don't remember my writing being that bad,
don't remember the classes, but I am forever grateful for them!
I love handwriting for its beauty and grace. In my teens, I took up
calligraphy and was actually paid for my handwriting for wedding
invitations and turning words into works of art. These days, I use my word
processor a lot, but whenever I need to do "important" meaningful writing-
journalling, personal letters, information that I need to really get into
my head- nothing but pen and paper feels right and careful penmanship is
part of that process. I guess it's meditative and therapeutic for me.
I love playing with words and handwriting is of course a major part of
that! I use my handwriting in bookmaking, in jewellery making, in my
graphics work. I love to write out recipes and poems and notes to my
children. I point out to them the beauty of the written word all the time
and I plan to introduce cursive writing to my nine-year-old this year. Part
of me believes that it IS a skill that everyone needs, because I think
we're becoming removed from the spirit and soul of writing as computers and
technology play a larger part in out lives (along with speaking clearly and
well) . Of course the computer is quicker and more legible and fixes all
your mistakes, but why are we in such a hurry all the time?
Warmly,
Lyn Turner
I go:-) I remember being forced to take classes to improve my handwriting
when I was around 13 years old. Don't remember my writing being that bad,
don't remember the classes, but I am forever grateful for them!
I love handwriting for its beauty and grace. In my teens, I took up
calligraphy and was actually paid for my handwriting for wedding
invitations and turning words into works of art. These days, I use my word
processor a lot, but whenever I need to do "important" meaningful writing-
journalling, personal letters, information that I need to really get into
my head- nothing but pen and paper feels right and careful penmanship is
part of that process. I guess it's meditative and therapeutic for me.
I love playing with words and handwriting is of course a major part of
that! I use my handwriting in bookmaking, in jewellery making, in my
graphics work. I love to write out recipes and poems and notes to my
children. I point out to them the beauty of the written word all the time
and I plan to introduce cursive writing to my nine-year-old this year. Part
of me believes that it IS a skill that everyone needs, because I think
we're becoming removed from the spirit and soul of writing as computers and
technology play a larger part in out lives (along with speaking clearly and
well) . Of course the computer is quicker and more legible and fixes all
your mistakes, but why are we in such a hurry all the time?
Warmly,
Lyn Turner
Michele Moss
> From: "mrstar" <mrstar@...>i would definately choose the latter on all of these!
>
> Conclusion-Can you tell I am a poor speller? Have really lousy
> penmanship? Would it lower your estimation of me if you could? Would
> I care? What really matters anyway? That I know my times tables or
> that I am a kind person? That I was a 'gifted' student or
> respectful? That I can earn a scholarship or honors or whatever or
> that I can tell the difference between right and wrong, and choose
> right.
Parenting isn't about making sure our kids can spell, write
> legibly, memorize times tables, or answer essay questions. It isMichele Moss
> about nurturing, loving, sharing, giving, providing a safe place to
> explore the world. The rest will fall into place.
>
> Mary in Idaho (who thinks every question is an essay question and
> thanks God for this great computer else no
> one would be able to read this <g>)
>
> i love it! <G>
Mom of Sterling Tyler age 3 yrs old
Parents of Spirited Kids Resource Web site:
http://www.icstech.net/~michele
Parents of Spirited Kids Discussion Group:
http://www.egroups.com/list/psk
Andi Kaufman
>From: vthiesse@...i agree. isaac avoided writing in school while he was there and tried not
>>Handwriting is, in fact, a great place to drive everyone totally nuts.
>Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
>>intentioned "teachers" putting pressure on them. Leave it be. This is
>of course very much from the unschooling perspective.
to do it here. sometimes he still doesnt want to but many times now he will
make his won games and write. Last year i tried to get some cursive stuff
for him but he didnt get into and i decided that he didnt have to learn it
at 8. so we put the books away. well today he asked for the books and said
he wanted to learn adn it is so easy now. now arguements or anger just
practicing and pride.
i guess unschooling can really work :)
Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...
Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/99 3:25:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<<
OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
handwriting? How much does the quality of your handwriting really affect
your life? >>
I have really nice handwriting and enjoy using it, especially in my
scrapbooks.
I also have fast cursive/print I use a lot too! I love to write cursive, and
I
use to love to practice my signature. I fiddled with it for quite a few years
before I fell into a very flowery cursive style. My first initial K is
completely
improper, but when I sign my last initial W its proper, straight from the
classroom walls. Funny I didn't learn how to make a W that way in my early
years. It wasn't until I was a teen playing and practicing could I learn to
do
that. Anyhow, to make a long store end <gg> and to answer the original
question, no, my handwriting hasn't really affected the quality of my life
other
than to say I enjoy it, my dd likes, my dh can't read it (thats another
story!)
and I occasionally get compliments on it ; )
Kathy
tn-k4of5@... writes:
<<
OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
handwriting? How much does the quality of your handwriting really affect
your life? >>
I have really nice handwriting and enjoy using it, especially in my
scrapbooks.
I also have fast cursive/print I use a lot too! I love to write cursive, and
I
use to love to practice my signature. I fiddled with it for quite a few years
before I fell into a very flowery cursive style. My first initial K is
completely
improper, but when I sign my last initial W its proper, straight from the
classroom walls. Funny I didn't learn how to make a W that way in my early
years. It wasn't until I was a teen playing and practicing could I learn to
do
that. Anyhow, to make a long store end <gg> and to answer the original
question, no, my handwriting hasn't really affected the quality of my life
other
than to say I enjoy it, my dd likes, my dh can't read it (thats another
story!)
and I occasionally get compliments on it ; )
Kathy
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/13/1999 5:58:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lturner@... writes:
<< but whenever I need to do "important" meaningful writing-
journalling, personal letters, information that I need to really get into
my head- nothing but pen and paper feels right and careful penmanship is
part of that process. I guess it's meditative and therapeutic for me. >>
Whenever I have trouble falling asleep, I imagine that I'm writing, veerrrry
slowly, the word "sleep" ... not in my "today" handwriting, but in the
cursive I was taught in school. See, I guess it IS good for something!!!
Works everytime!
Sam
lturner@... writes:
<< but whenever I need to do "important" meaningful writing-
journalling, personal letters, information that I need to really get into
my head- nothing but pen and paper feels right and careful penmanship is
part of that process. I guess it's meditative and therapeutic for me. >>
Whenever I have trouble falling asleep, I imagine that I'm writing, veerrrry
slowly, the word "sleep" ... not in my "today" handwriting, but in the
cursive I was taught in school. See, I guess it IS good for something!!!
Works everytime!
Sam
Andi Kaufman
><<I dont think it does. I love my hadnwriting and i love to write and play
> OK, here is a question for all of you. How many people really have NICE
> handwriting? How much does the quality of your handwriting really affect
> your life? >>
with writing. but some people dont and i do not find that it is a necassary
skill to survive. You must know how to sign your name and write if need be
but not perfect penmanship.
Andi...domestic goddess and active volunteer
mom to Isaac
tl2b@...
Never Underestimate the Power of This Woman!
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/99 9:58:38 PM !!!First Boot!!!, lturner@...
writes:
<<
I love playing with words and handwriting is of course a major part of
that! I use my handwriting in bookmaking, in jewellery making, in my
graphics work. I love to write out recipes and poems and notes to my
children. I point out to them the beauty of the written word all the time
and I plan to introduce cursive writing to my nine-year-old this year. Part
of me believes that it IS a skill that everyone needs, because I think
we're becoming removed from the spirit and soul of writing as computers and
technology play a larger part in out lives (along with speaking clearly and
well) . Of course the computer is quicker and more legible and fixes all
your mistakes, but why are we in such a hurry all the time? >>
I think you make a very good argument that really fine penmanship is more of
an art than a skill. I can practice and get to be a better typist -- get
faster and more accurate and get better at this skill. I could practice
until forever and my penmanship would not improve. Nor do I need or want it
to. I think it would be neat to teach kids about how pretty and fun some
penmanship can be but to require good artistic talent seems cruel to me --
I'm no artist -- my daughter is very talented (I think) -- but I hope noone
ever makes my kids feel bad that they aren't talented this way.
Just my 2 cents.
Nance
writes:
<<
I love playing with words and handwriting is of course a major part of
that! I use my handwriting in bookmaking, in jewellery making, in my
graphics work. I love to write out recipes and poems and notes to my
children. I point out to them the beauty of the written word all the time
and I plan to introduce cursive writing to my nine-year-old this year. Part
of me believes that it IS a skill that everyone needs, because I think
we're becoming removed from the spirit and soul of writing as computers and
technology play a larger part in out lives (along with speaking clearly and
well) . Of course the computer is quicker and more legible and fixes all
your mistakes, but why are we in such a hurry all the time? >>
I think you make a very good argument that really fine penmanship is more of
an art than a skill. I can practice and get to be a better typist -- get
faster and more accurate and get better at this skill. I could practice
until forever and my penmanship would not improve. Nor do I need or want it
to. I think it would be neat to teach kids about how pretty and fun some
penmanship can be but to require good artistic talent seems cruel to me --
I'm no artist -- my daughter is very talented (I think) -- but I hope noone
ever makes my kids feel bad that they aren't talented this way.
Just my 2 cents.
Nance