[email protected]

Even now sexism seems to be alive and well. Recently a person at a get
together we were at was talking about how she wanted her kids to be various
occupations so that she'd have all the things taken care of (jokingly) and
said she tells one of her young daughters she needs to "marry a
chiropractor." I didn't say anything about it but I kept thinking about it
afterward for some reason.

Lucy

Tracy Oldfield

Even now sexism seems to be alive and well.
Recently a person at a get 
together we were at was talking about how she wanted
her kids to be various 
occupations so that she'd have all the things taken
care of (jokingly) and 
said she tells one of her young daughters she needs to
"marry a 
chiropractor." I didn't say anything about it but I
kept thinking about it 
afterward for some reason.

 Lucy


UGH!!!! My chiro will scream with laughing when I tell her this...

Tracy

Lynda

I know what you mean, although I do tell Kidlet #4 that I want him to grow
up and marry a doctor. I mean, he wants to be a veterinarian and that's not
going to help me much with my aches and pains <g>

Some of the songs out there bug me with their messages also. And, although
if one stops to listen to the whole song it might not be bad, the hooks are
the parts that folks hear and that run around in your mind, so it doesn't
really make any difference what the whole song says sometimes.

Now I know that it is probably only me <g> but the one that really bugs me
right now is this list's fault because I first heard it when the
conversation about Barbies was going on and the whole self-image thing for
young girls, "I'm Rose Maria's granddaughter, the image of my father, that's
who I am." That's the hook in the song and that's the part you usually
catch. The whole song isn't bad but that line makes me want to say, "Hello,
that's not who you are! That has helped make you but that is NOT who YOU
are!"

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <LASaliger@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2001 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] sexism


> Even now sexism seems to be alive and well. Recently a person at a
get
> together we were at was talking about how she wanted her kids to be
various
> occupations so that she'd have all the things taken care of (jokingly) and
> said she tells one of her young daughters she needs to "marry a
> chiropractor." I didn't say anything about it but I kept thinking about
it
> afterward for some reason.
>
> Lucy
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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>
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>
>

Tracy Oldfield

Now I know that it is probably only me <g> but the one
that really bugs me
right now is this list's fault because I first heard it
when the
conversation about Barbies was going on and the whole
self-image thing for
young girls, "I'm Rose Maria's granddaughter, the image
of my father, that's
who I am." That's the hook in the song and that's the
part you usually
catch. The whole song isn't bad but that line makes me
want to say, "Hello,
that's not who you are! That has helped make you but
that is NOT who YOU
are!"

Lynda

LOL I watched U-571 yesterday by myself so that if
necessary I could shout the 'that isn't what
happened!!!' stuff at the sceen without bugging anyone
else :-)

Tracy

[email protected]

<<Even now sexism seems to be alive and well. Recently a person at a get

together we were at was talking about how she wanted her kids to be
various
occupations so that she'd have all the things taken care of (jokingly)
and
said she tells one of her young daughters she needs to "marry a
chiropractor." I didn't say anything about it but I kept thinking about
it
afterward for some reason.

Lucy>>

I want one of my kids to marry a chiropractor too (unless they BECOME one
themselves) but I don't care if it's my son or daughter. *grin*

Kris
________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/18/01 6:45:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:

<< Some of the songs out there bug me with their messages also. And, although
if one stops to listen to the whole song it might not be bad, the hooks are
the parts that folks hear and that run around in your mind, >>

One that used to bug me about 4 years ago was the one by Celine Dion,
"I'm everything I am because you loved me..." My sister and I had our
mocking version that we'd sing when we were driving around and heard it come
on the radio..."I'd be a piece of crap if you didn't love me..." I know many
seem to like the song but it drove me crazy...

Lucy

Joylyn

OomYaaqub@... wrote:

>
>
> Well, not entirely. I'm sure you raised her in a way that maximized her
> potential, but she is also a GIRL, and whether it is sexist to admit
> this or not,
> girls do mature much more quickly than boys.

no, not necessarily

> I am speaking of both mental and
> verbal maturity. Trust me, I have a biology degree and I do know some
> things.

I'm sure you know many things, but this is one area I cannot trust you
and will not trust you. Others on this list have equally impressive
degrees and areas of knowledge, but for the most part I don't believe a
college education means very much. For example some of the best
teachers I know have little or no formal education while some of the
worst teachers have spent years aquiring this certification or that
degree in education. I think very few unschoolers would be impressed
with college degrees, but especially those of us who also have college
degrees and understand that they rarely mean gathering of life long
learning and instead measure an ability to play a game.

> Boys are relatively "retarded" in these areas,

I feel sad for your boys, that you feel so. I don't have a boy but I
would love one, and I can tell you I don't think I would ever refer to
any part of my boy as retarded. I know many boys, having taught for
years and years, having three nephews, and being alive and observant in
various situations, and while I do accept that there are some biological
differences between boys and girls, I personally think that nurture is
so much more important. I think it's sad that your boys have a mom who
consider them "retarded" in any area, and it makes me think that often
children perform to expectations--I did learn that in college but it is
something that I have seen play out in real life in the classroom and in
my own home, so I think there is something to it. If a parent expects a
child to be socially retarded, they should not be surprised when that
happens.

Furthermore, children learn by what they see, based on your words I
wonder what kind of modeling you are doing for your own children and
would most definately put a greater emphases on their behavior on that
modeling and on your feelings about boys instead of on the fact they
have a penis.

> and yet they tend to be if
> anything MORE active at a younger age, so the potential for getting
> themselves
> into danger should be obvious.

I have a good friend who almost cried when she realized she was h aving
a little boy. She wanted a sweet gentle easy little girl, and was
worried about how she'd be able to handle a little boy who would fall
out of trees or off walls or who would get into scuffles with friends.
We met when our children were about 4 months of age, they are about 1
month apart in age. It was immediately clear that she had a sweet easy
little boy and I had a high need little girl who was anything but sweet
and easy. Her little boy has never broken anything, never needed
stiches or a cast, seldom scrapes his knees. His quite mature and easy
going, he could play with small toys very early, as he never put
anything in his mouth and was quite mature with both language and fine
motor skills. Lexie on the other hand has fine motor issues because of
her vision issues and she's a rough and tumble little girl who loves to
climb trees and walk on walls and roll in the grass. My girls love all
animals and insticts, and have few fears. I have raised them as sexfree
as possible, buying them "boy" toys and "girl" toys and not labeling
those items in any way. They would push around their trucks in their
strollers and breastfeed their dinosaurs. Oh, and to answer another
post, there were using knifes when they were toddlers as well, with
assistance and help, because I personally do not believe that saying
"NO!" to those dangerous items works, but instead helping a child learn
about things that can be potentially dangerous so that they can manage
them and know how to deal with various situations helps better. Janene
has been lighting matches since she was three, as she was facinated with
the candles and it seemed wiser to give her some control over fire and
matches as well as some guidelines regarding those items instead of
simply saying no. She has burned herself, she knows the power of
matches, and this knowledge has made her powerful, so there is no need
for her to "Play" with matches. It is interesting but my friend just
had another little boy and she was thrilled now to have a brother for
her son. Her 2nd sone is more like Lexie, definately a strong willed
child who is going to have my friend rethink all of her ideas about
little boys and little girls.

> And no, it isn't possible to just talk them
> out of it. I don't think anyone who has only raised girls fully
> understands just
> how much trouble little boys can get themselves into, things that
> wouldn't
> even occur to the average mom until they happen, because as a general
> rule we
> just don't think the way they do!

What a statement of ignorence. How can you make a statement? Amazing.
Again, that theory of expectations I think is in play here. But to be
honest, I'm not even sure what to say here. I'm pretty confident that
you don't even read what any of us write, at least not with an open
mind. So what is the point of me responding to this horrible sexist
statement.

I think I will say this--why must we call it trouble! My girls have
certainly gotten themselves into lots of situations, things that
wouldn't have occured to me that they might do until afterwards, but I
certainly rarely called it "Trouble" because for me and to me it was a
learning experience. Trouble is so negative.

>
> I was reading to my boys even before they were born, I avoid talking
> down to
> them and I've always explained things to them as if they were capable of
> understanding complex ideas. And they are, but they have still done
> some really
> stupid, dangerous things, as has their dad, come to think of it, even
> though as
> an undergraduate he aced such complex things as Physical Chemistry and
> Differential Equations.
>
> I can't come to any conclusion other than to just say it must be a guy
> thing.

or maybe it's an expectation thing.

Joylyn

Jon and Rue Kream

>>I'm pretty confident that
you don't even read what any of us write,

Hi Joylyn - Having been down this road before, I can tell you that in my
opinion you are absolutely right. I enjoyed reading your post, though :0).
~Rue


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/2003 2:18:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> I think it's sad that your boys have a mom who
> consider them "retarded" in any area,

"Retarded" in this context is not an insult. The word actually means slower
in development. And it's perfectly normal. This doesn't mean every single
case, to be sure. I know little girls who didn't read before they were 11, and
little boys who taught themselves to read at 4. But in general, most little
girls are ready to read earlier than most little boys. The male brain, more
than the female brain, tends to be wired to act without thinking. Anyone can
observe this on a daily basis, just be reading the headlines. You hear about
someone falling accidentally from the roof of a church, which they were climbing
for fun, do you think "male" or "female"?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/2003 2:18:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> I think I will say this--why must we call it trouble! My girls have
> certainly gotten themselves into lots of situations, things that
> wouldn't have occured to me that they might do until afterwards, but I
> certainly rarely called it "Trouble" because for me and to me it was a
> learning experience. Trouble is so negative.

By "trouble" I meant injured. It is hard to make a severe injury sound
anything but negative. I have to agree it is a learning experience, though.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
> "Retarded" in this context is not an insult. The word actually means
slower
> in development. And it's perfectly normal. This doesn't mean every
single
> case, to be sure. I know little girls who didn't read before they were
11, and
> little boys who taught themselves to read at 4. But in general, most
little
> girls are ready to read earlier than most little boys. The male brain,
more
> than the female brain, tends to be wired to act without thinking. Anyone
can
> observe this on a daily basis, just be reading the headlines. You hear
about
> someone falling accidentally from the roof of a church, which they were
climbing
> for fun, do you think "male" or "female"?

Neither. I think "stupid".
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

Joylyn

Tia Leschke wrote:

>
>
> >
> > "Retarded" in this context is not an insult. The word actually means
> slower
> > in development. And it's perfectly normal. This doesn't mean every
> single
> > case, to be sure. I know little girls who didn't read before they were
> 11, and
> > little boys who taught themselves to read at 4. But in general, most
> little
> > girls are ready to read earlier than most little boys. The male brain,
> more
> > than the female brain, tends to be wired to act without thinking.
> Anyone
> can
> > observe this on a daily basis, just be reading the headlines. You hear
> about
> > someone falling accidentally from the roof of a church, which they were
> climbing
> > for fun, do you think "male" or "female"?
>
> Neither. I think "stupid".

my word was idiot.

Joylyn

Backstrom kelli

I think of any of my three girls, never would consider my dh or any any of my male nephews... hmm, I guess that makes me out of the "norm"
Kelli and her boys, Molly, Sadie and Nora

Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:


>
> "Retarded" in this context is not an insult. The word actually means
slower
> in development. And it's perfectly normal. This doesn't mean every
single
> case, to be sure. I know little girls who didn't read before they were
11, and
> little boys who taught themselves to read at 4. But in general, most
little
> girls are ready to read earlier than most little boys. The male brain,
more
> than the female brain, tends to be wired to act without thinking. Anyone
can
> observe this on a daily basis, just be reading the headlines. You hear
about
> someone falling accidentally from the roof of a church, which they were
climbing
> for fun, do you think "male" or "female"?

Neither. I think "stupid".
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joylyn

OomYaaqub@... wrote:

> In a message dated 7/20/2003 2:18:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > I think it's sad that your boys have a mom who
> > consider them "retarded" in any area,
>
> "Retarded" in this context is not an insult.

Personally I think there are simply some terms that are insulting or
whose accepted meaning are such that it should not be used in polite
company. Retarded is one of those words.

> The word actually means slower
> in development.

Actually it has a great many meanings. according to dictionary.com

v. re·tard·ed, re·tard·ing, re·tards
v. tr.

to cause to move or proceed slowly; delay or impede.

v. intr.

To be delayed.

n.

1. A slowing down or hindering of progress; a delay.
2. Music. A slackening of tempo.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English retarden, from Old French retarder, from Latin retard
re : re-, re- + tard re, to delay (from tardus, slow).]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
re·tard er n.


re·tard·ed Audio pronunciation of retarded
<https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dretarded>
( P ) Pronunciation Key
<http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html> (r -tär d d)
adj.

1. Often Offensive. Affected with mental retardation.
2. Occurring or developing later than desired or expected; delayed.

retarded

Retard \Re*tard"\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Retarded
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=retarded>; p. pr. & vb. n.
Retarding <http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=retarding>.] [L.
retardare, retardatum; pref. re- re- + tardare to make slow, to delay,
fr. tardus slow: cf. F. retarder. See Tardy
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=tardy>.] 1. To keep delaying;
to continue to hinder; to prevent from progress; to render more slow in
progress; to impede; to hinder; as, to retard the march of an army; to
retard the motion of a ship; -- opposed to accelerate
<http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=accelerate>.

2. To put off; to postpone; as, to retard the attacks of old age; to
retard a rupture between nations.

Syn: To impede; hinder; obstruct; detain; delay; procrastinate;
postpone; defer.

retarded

adj : relatively slow in mental or emotional or physical development;
"providing a secure and sometimes happy life for the retarded" [ant:
precocious <http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=precocious>]


In reading the above, I saw that the word was offensive, and that
basically it means to slow or for development to be slower than normal.

> And it's perfectly normal.

OK, even if we go along with the premise that the majority of boys are
slower to develop in certain areas than girls, and that this is normal,
the word "retarded" doesn't fit because it is simply, as you said,
normal. It is not retarded. I've worked with "retarded" or mentally
slow children--they are far from normal.

Personally I find the word offensive and personally I don't use words to
describe my children that are offensive. For instance, I don't call my
five year old hyper, instead I say she is full of energy. I don't say
she doesn't listen and is stubborn, instead I say she has her own mind.
I have done this since before I had kids, when I was teaching special
education and I called the little retards in my classroom "children that
learn at their own pace."

> This doesn't mean every single
> case, to be sure. I know little girls who didn't read before they
> were 11, and
> little boys who taught themselves to read at 4. But in general, most
> little
> girls are ready to read earlier than most little boys. The male
> brain, more
> than the female brain, tends to be wired to act without thinking.

how insulting can you be? It is clear that you don't think much of men,
and I see that as being very sad.

Joylyn

> Anyone can
> observe this on a daily basis, just be reading the headlines. You
> hear about
> someone falling accidentally from the roof of a church, which they
> were climbing
> for fun, do you think "male" or "female"?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

>You hear
> about
> > someone falling accidentally from the roof of a church, which they
were
> climbing
> > for fun, do you think "male" or "female"?

***Neither. I think "stupid".***

***my word was idiot.***

My brother said "stupid idiot" about me falling out of a tree last
month.<g>

I climb stuff. I'm not a professional or experienced climber but I've
climbed some rocks here and there and done some climbing in caves.

It is fun. If I thought I could get to the top of the First Christian
Church down on fourth street I'd try it. I mean if I thought I could
get there without getting arrested. I know I could get to the top.<g>

I got pretty far up that last tree before I fell. Perspective is
different from the top of a tree, or the top of a cliff or the high wall
of a room in a cave. My changing perspective over the years has changed
my person, too. I don't mind falling down once in a while because the
perspective is different from down there, too.

I fell off the trampoline but that's because my forty year old body and
motion sick mind couldn't keep up with the flippy trapeze thing I was
trying to reproduce on Missouri avenue, Deer Lodge, Montana.

Dylan, eleven year old boy, has not fallen out of or off of anything
since last September, so his boy record is better than his stupid idiot
mother's record. <g>

We all seem to be just fine. <G>

Deb L, who's husband wants Mexican food tonight but just said he doesn't
want me to slave over a hot griddle (it's 92 degrees here) OR, maybe he
said he didn't want me to squeeze into a hot girdle. The fan is noisy
and I can't hear anything...
Either way, he's making dinner. Woo Hoo!

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/20/03 1:42:23 PM, OomYaaqub@... writes:

<< The word actually means slower
in development. >>

Actually?

Huh.

WE KNOW THAT.

And you used it of boys in general and it seemed of your boys in particular.


Sandra