Michele Moss

> From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
>
> Now this is where my BUT comes in. I know parents who are
> respectfully parenting their spirited children. But some only
> respect the child, not other people. One family in particular are
> not even attempting, it would seem, to teach their gifted, spirited
> child that other people deserve repect also.

Hi!
i think this is a very important point you make - "some are and
some aren't". while parenting a spirited or gifted child can be very
demanding and challenging, the one family probably would let thier
child exhibit this sort of behavior irregardless of them being
spirited or gifted. that's just my opinion but don't know enough
about the people make that sort of assumption so have a counter
arguement for that as well....... further down.

> This is NOT an isolated incident. This child is severely gifted in
> the traditional areas. He has been tested and told the results. He
> has been heard on several occasions to say to kids he's trying to
> play with 'you have to play my way, because I'm gifted and I so know
> better than you what to do'.

sounds like he is not getting the guidance to use his giftedness
in a positive manner.

I know a couple of other
> families with similarly behaved children, though this would be the
> worst. They are so proud of their children's abilities - and these
> are, I agree, unusually intelligent kids - but somehow, having
> discovered that the 'spirited' behaviour is common among gifted
> children, they seem to feel that the behaviour is acceptable, and
> must be accepted by everyone.

This is unfortunate and in the long run is only going to hurt the
child.
>
> These and a couple of other children seem to have only one volume -
> full on - and are extremely disruptive. The parents are caring,
> loving, intelligent people. I can only assume that they are
> suffering so badly from shell shock that they just don't see how
> unpleasant their children are to others.

my counter arguement... maybe they just don't know what to do
anymore or where to turn so are trying to play it down so it doesn't
seem so bad to others or to make themselves feel like failures. you
don't mention the age of the other kids you refer to but in the case
of the 9 yo, i'm sure the parents through some of the earlier years
were trying their best and hardest, only to be met with the utmost
negatively from people who probably don't even know them! i don't
think this is an acceptable excuse to let your children rule
everybody and everything, BUT in also in their defense maybe
they just don't know what else to do. i'm sure they've heard it all
when it comes to trying to talk to someone about their child's
behavior and realizes it was a wasted effort to even begin to try and
get someone to understand what they were talking about!

Furthermore, they use the
> child's intelligence to excuse the behaviour, and seem to expect the
> rest of us to sit by

This is totally unacceptable in my eyes. Neither gifted or
spirited should be an excuse for rude, unrespectful, unruly behavior.
I know a lot of parents with spirited kids that would agree
and are working very hard to teach their children about their
spiritedness and how to manage their behavior in a positive manner.
This includes recognizing when they are becoming overwhelmed by too
much stimulii and ways to tone themselves back down before they get
entirely out of control, respect for other's feelings and space, and
so on. it's an exhausting job but equally has it's rewards.

I can accept the child: I can't accept a family
> where the parent allows the child to disturb / annoy / physically
> hurt / emotionally harm others without any intervention, because
> 'it's just the way he is / he can't help it / it's just part of his
> giftedness / he's spirited / he's got to be free to express
> himself....'
>
Perhaps if you listen carefully you might detect an underlying
reason of why she's making excuses? Is she on the internet? maybe
suggest she join a discussion group such as this one but for parents of
spirited kids? You could send her over to mine for starters. there
are more and more surfacing all the time if someone would to spend
some time searching the net. see my signature line at the bottom for
mine.

> I guess what I am saying is, spirited is great. These are exciting
> neat kids who have such a lot of potential. But they also need
> guidance in how to learn to fit in with other people. I'm not
> calling for mindless conformity - just a bit of consideration for
> others, which will ultimately make life a lot more fun for them as
> well.
>
i couldn't agree more. Sterling is spirited and i would not (or
let anyone else) break that spirit but i work with him constantly to
help him recognize it for the gift that it is and the good it can
bring him. i won't tolerate for him to use his persistance to bully
his way around into getting what he wants. He's taught to use his
mind and words creatively, to channel all that energy to do positive
things, and not to use his body (as in hitting) to get results.
Believe me, we have our days. but he is only 3 yo and still
learning. Some days he forgets everything and does things out of the
clear blue that he knows better and i work with him about it.
The difference i am hearing is that the people you know seem to
have given up on doing anything about the behavior.

i don't know what else to say at this point except try to be
patient and understanding so that you may be able to tactfully point
her to some resources? Please don't misunderstand me to say that you
should quietly accept being hit either. It is not appropriate
behavior for any child and spirited or gifted is no exception!! Do
the same that you would if anyone else child did the same. If you
don't, you are just encouraging the excuses as being acceptable.

> Carol
> who expects to have her hit head flame-burned shortly <g>
>

Michele Moss
Mom of Sterling Tyler age 3 yrs old
Parents of Spirited Kids Resource Web site:
http://www.icstech.net/~michele
Parents of Spirited Kids Discussion Group:
http://www.egroups.com/list/psk

Brown

I don't have a 'spirited' child, although I have had one that was definitely
'interesting'! (ie threw massive tantrums for a long time) and 3 out of 4 of my
boys would check out on at least 12 of the 14 traits on the ADD list. But I don't
believe they are ADD or spirited - they are just boys.

I have been reading some of the posts with interest, however, knowing several
people with children that fit this description, some friends, some not. Yesterday
I was attacked, yet again, by one of these children, and feel the need to comment.
I have seen how hard it is to live with some of these kids. I have seen how tired
and despondent 2 of my friends in particular have been at times. I am sympathetic.
I have looked after my friends' kids.

But......

> jillmca@... writes:
> << It was so scary when he was younger and I was such a "rotten" parent
> (ask those parents with well behaved toddlers). I encourage all of you to
> hang in there. >>

I certainly don't think of you as a rotten parent. My eldest was a climber and
very active in every way. A woman gave me and another woman a lecture on how we
should train our boys to sit nicely, be quiet and not run around. I used to have
fantasies about sending my boy around to visit her daughter and lead her astray
when they got to 16 - 17 <beg> She was soooo complacent.

> From: LivnLetLrn@...
> Ah, thanks for the kind words, coming at exactly the right time, as we're
> struggling again (still?!) with respectful parenting of a spirited 4-1/2 year
> old son. On good days we think of him in terms like "free spirited," "mind
> of his own," "a leader, not a follower," "inquisitive and curious." Other
> days I have less wonderful descriptions running through my mind. ::::sigh::::
>
> We'll keep hanging in there, hoping and believing that what we're doing is
> right, knowing that other parenting choices may alleviate some of the
> stresses we face as parents but may not be the best choices for the long-term
> well-being of our son.

Now this is where my BUT comes in. I know parents who are respectfully parenting
their spirited children. But some only respect the child, not other people. One
family in particular are not even attempting, it would seem, to teach their
gifted, spirited child that other people deserve repect also. When I say I was
attacked, I mean it. I was sitting on the floor at our homeschool family playday
talking to a friend and her 5yo daughter, and this 9 yo came up and literally hit
me on the head and started telling (yelling) me something. When I said to him 'I
was listening to Shelley, and I'd like it if you would wait till she's finished,
and also I don't like being hit on the head because it hurts' he said - 'but I
want to tell you something' and continued to tell (yell) me.

This is NOT an isolated incident. This child is severely gifted in the traditional
areas. He has been tested and told the results. He has been heard on several
occasions to say to kids he's trying to play with 'you have to play my way,
because I'm gifted and I so know better than you what to do'. His sister was very
much the same, but is finally learning, the hard way, at 12, that if she wants to
have friends she has to change her ways. I know a couple of other families with
similarly behaved children, though this would be the worst. They are so proud of
their children's abilities - and these are, I agree, unusually intelligent kids -
but somehow, having discovered that the 'spirited' behaviour is common among
gifted children, they seem to feel that the behaviour is acceptable, and must be
accepted by everyone.

The saddest thing of all: This child's mother sat and told me in all seriousness
how cruel and unwelcoming the other children were to her kids, and how sad they
were that no-one would play with them. When my Jeff came to her once and asked her
to do something because her son kept breaking Jeff's construction, her response
was 'well tell him you don't like it'. Jeff said he had and that the boy had
continued - she did nothing. He physically manhandles the children who try to
befriend him, and his response to any request to modify his behaviour in any way
is to look at the person with a look of disdain and to reply 'but that's what I
want'. The daughter also used to tell other children that what they were doing was
useless, that she knew better. Both scream / used to scream at the tops of their
voices for their mother to make the other children do as they want them to do -
for up to half an hour.

These and a couple of other children seem to have only one volume - full on - and
are extremely disruptive. The parents are caring, loving, intelligent people. I
can only assume that they are suffering so badly from shell shock that they just
don't see how unpleasant their children are to others. Furthermore, they use the
child's intelligence to excuse the behaviour, and seem to expect the rest of us to
sit by while their little precious trys (literally in one case) to strangle our
kids. Say what? Yes, I believe in respectful parenting, but I also believe in
respecting other people in society too.

I have a friend with a child that almost anyone would describe as ADHD. For a long
time she used to leave her son with her husband or parents when she visited
friends - except me. She said I was the only friend who would accept her son's
behaviour as something he couldn't help, so she brought him to our house. Why?
Because when he infringed on other people's freedoms she intervened. And that's
the crux of the matter. I can accept the child: I can't accept a family where the
parent allows the child to disturb / annoy / physically hurt / emotionally harm
others without any intervention, because 'it's just the way he is / he can't help
it / it's just part of his giftedness / he's spirited / he's got to be free to
express himself....'

I guess what I am saying is, spirited is great. These are exciting neat kids who
have such a lot of potential. But they also need guidance in how to learn to fit
in with other people. I'm not calling for mindless conformity - just a bit of
consideration for others, which will ultimately make life a lot more fun for them
as well.

Carol
who expects to have her hit head flame-burned shortly <g>

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/10/99 8:30:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mjcmbrwn@... writes:

<< But some only respect the child, not other people. One
family in particular are not even attempting, it would seem, to teach their
gifted, spirited child that other people deserve repect also. >>

That is exactly our main challenge around here -- helping our son learn to
control himself in a way that is respectful of ourselves and those around us,
without crushing his spirit in the process.

I have unfortunately been in similar situations to the one you described
where the child was obnoxious, but the difference is that I would have
promptly removed my son from the situation and talked with him about it in a
quiet place, possibly then to return for another try or go home and shift
gears. I suspect that parents of spirited kids aren't the only ones faced
with such challenges.....

<>

Agreed....and working on it. ;-)

Peace -- Debbie

[email protected]

Carol, I know I too have experienced children with the behaviors you are
talking about. You hit the nail on the head. We have 3 boys in our
neighborhood who are simply rude and imposing to the point that I had to stop
allowing my children to play with them because I could see the influence. I
think they have such great potential and at times are great kids but they
haven't been taught respect for others. It's a shame. How do these kids slip
through the public school system, I wonder, where every child is expected to
be quiet and follow the rules?
You'll get no flaming from me! Lori in TX

linjoy w

Carol,
No flames here. I call those parents you described as the ones who read
Mothering Magazine without thinking about what they are reading. I do
think you are being too kind to the parents. When a parent says their
child should have the right to hurt others, they are not kind loving
people, but rather selfish self centered folk. The friend you spoke
about who was helping her child learn about respecting others will turn
out a neat kid. The others will have kids who go through life blaming
everyone else for their problems, and not understanding why no one likes
them.
The parents who talk about teaching boys to sit quietly are called (in
rather snippy tones) "you know, parents of girls"
Now for my hard question. Why are you and the other parents allowing
your children to be hurt by this selfish woman's children?
LJ

Cindy Ferguson

Brown wrote:
> Now this is where my BUT comes in. I know parents who are respectfully parenting
> their spirited children. But some only respect the child, not other people. One
> family in particular are not even attempting, it would seem, to teach their
> gifted, spirited child that other people deserve repect also.

I agree with you on this. I am in the process of reading "Raising
Your Spirited Child". I have 3 spirited children, I am a spirited
parent. The oldest of the 3 is now 24 so he's not too much of
a concern/problem -- unfortunately he has learned a lot of his
social lessons the hard way!

The two at home are 4 and 2. This book has helped me understand
so much how our dynamics work -- I'm an introvert and both of them
seem to extroverts. No wonder I feel drained most days!

To me they just seem like normal kids -- I haven't been a mother
to any other type!!! It's a challenge and it's very rewarding.

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

Brown

Debbie

I agree partly with you where you said

> I would have
> promptly removed my son from the situation and talked with him about it in a
> quiet place, possibly then to return for another try or go home and shift
> gears.

When the other mother did nothing, this is what I did. BUT I really resent having
to deprive MY children (I had 2 other children there as well) of an activity that
is otherwise very enjoyable to all of them. Lots of fun, friends etc. But spoiled
by one child. :-(

Carol

Brown

LJ

Oh dear. You hit hard :-(


> Now for my hard question. Why are you and the other parents allowing
> your children to be hurt by this selfish woman's children?

This is really neat lady - except for her attitude to her kids. It's so hard
to think of what to say to her.

But it isn't just that. Our local h/s group seems to have developed in a
very inclusive manner. Too inclusive IMO. It is generally accepted in the
group that every family has the right to parent and homeschool in the manner
in which they believe to be right for their family. People get very irrate
if someone tells their child not to do something. One family even got
indignant because the church from whom we were hiring a building said that
children were not to play in the carpark area.

I know, I know. We should just stop going. But my kids have friends there
and the physical space is just great and we live 45 minutes drive away and
just can't get into organising something else.... Excuses, excuses. I should
just front up to these people, but there are enough that believe that the
family has sole right of control / lack of control that I would just make
enemies and change nothing. So until we can escape the situation altogether,
I just make sure I keep close enough to intervene.

Go on. Call me a coward!

Carol

linjoy w

Nope, won't call you a coward as long as you protect your own children,
both physically and emotionally. Other people's children are their own
problem, I wouldn't hold you responsible.
LJ

[email protected]

I said:
> I would have
> promptly removed my son from the situation and talked with him about it in
a
> quiet place, possibly then to return for another try or go home and shift
> gears.

Carol said:
<< When the other mother did nothing, this is what I did. BUT I really resent
having
to deprive MY children (I had 2 other children there as well) of an activity
that
is otherwise very enjoyable to all of them. Lots of fun, friends etc. But
spoiled
by one child. :-( >>

Oops, a little misunderstanding here...I was speaking as the mom of the
aggressor. I think you're talking about it from the viewpoint of the mom of
the harrassed child.

If this is a correct interpretation of what you're saying, then I STILL agree
with you...it would be completely unacceptable for a harrassed child to miss
a great activity because an aggressive child ruined the fun. If I had a
gentle child who needed to leave something fun because another parent was too
passive about their child's behavior, I'd resent it too. That's why I remove
my spirited little man from those types of situations, talk to him, and
decide whether we should give it another *closely monitored* try or leave,
with the knowledge that he wasn't ready for it.

Like you said before, it's all about respect...of him AND those around him.


Peace -- Debbie

Michele Moss

> Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:19:32 +1200
> From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Reply-to: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] spirited children

> From: Brown <mjcmbrwn@...>
>
> > Now for my hard question. Why are you and the other parents
> > allowing your children to be hurt by this selfish woman's
> > children?
>
> This is really neat lady - except for her attitude to her kids. It's
> so hard to think of what to say to her.

i can relate and understand this. it sounds like a touchy
situation that requires careful thought.
>
> But it isn't just that. Our local h/s group seems to have developed
> in a very inclusive manner. Too inclusive IMO. It is generally
> accepted in the group that every family has the right to parent and
> homeschool in the manner in which they believe to be right for their
> family. People get very irrate if someone tells their child not to
> do something.

their choice of methods for parenting and homeshooling are one
thing - anyone's kids being allowed to become physically aggressive
with other kids and/or adults is another. If two children at the
group ended up in a full blown knock down fight, would everyone just
stand around and watch if the parents were of the mindset that they
should be allowed to fight it out as a lesson? what if one of the
kids drew a knife out of nowhere (or worse yet, the unspeakable!),
what then? why should "one hit on the head" done in an obviously
aggressive manner be any different? being inclusive and respectful
of everyone's parenting or homeschooling methods should not mean that
anyone (or their kids) should have to endure physical attacks of
aggression - i'm sorry.... spirited, gifted, ADD... that is no
longer the issue here. the issue is that this aggressive behavior is
not only being tolerated at someone else's expense, but by allowing
it, it is encouraging the fact that it's okay to treat others this
way and a means to get your own way! this is not right IMO under any
circumstances!

it's nice that the group is inclusive of all parenting and
homeschooling styles but i think it does need a couple "house rules"
that everyone should have to abide by. how each parent enforces
those rules with thier children is where the everyone else's respect
of the choice of that parent's style comes into play.

One family even got indignant because the church from
> whom we were hiring a building said that children were not to play
> in the carpark area.
>
> I know, I know. We should just stop going. But my kids have friends
> there and the physical space is just great and we live 45 minutes
> drive away and just can't get into organising something else....

no, why should your family be impositioned or deprived of utilizing
the benefits of a group because some kids are being allowed to be
physical and hurt others? I used to take Sterling to a playgroup at
the local gymnastics center. it's intent was to give the kids safe
equipment and area to play in, to learn their social skills when
playing with other kids, and to give parents the environment to be
able to teach their kids these things. the playgroup was for 2-6 yo.
the rules were simple - no running, no physical contact (hitting,
pushing, shoving), parents were to be with their kids at all times,
parents would ensure their kids were following the rules (no matter
what parenting style they chose to use to enforce them). yes, kids
would occasionally be caught hitting another, but the parent was
expected to step in and "teach" their child that it is not
appropriate and use whatever method they chose to try and ensure that
it would not happen again. There was a monitor present at all times
and everyone knew that if a child continually broke the rules and the
parent was not doing anything about it, that the monitor could
intervene and they could also be asked to leave if the parent did not
want to participate in keeping the group enjoyable for everyone by
controlling their child. With everyone knowing these expectations,
it was a fun place for the kids to go. but kids will be kids and i
think every single child at some time or another lashed out
inappropriately. however, it was dealt with immediately because of
the rules that were in place and everyone was able to get past it
quickly, put it behind, and enjoy the rest of the session. in a
nutshell, learning to treat others the way you want to be treated and
making sure no one gets physically hurt and having fun, was the basis
of the group.

Perhaps this is the philosophy that needs to be adopted by the group
and implementing any rules necessary for that philosophy to
materialize. after all, isn't part of homeschooling teaching values
and respect for others?

> Excuses, excuses. I should just front up to these people, but there
> are enough that believe that the family has sole right of control /
> lack of control that I would just make enemies and change nothing.

i have a question about the group. what is it's purpose? is it a
meeting to discuss homeschooling issues? is it a social setting for
kids to play? is it a learning session for kids to get together and
help each other academically?

> So until we can escape the situation altogether, I just make sure I
> keep close enough to intervene.
>
> Go on. Call me a coward!
>
no, i don't think you're a coward. perhaps a little over-cautious
to not make waves for the group or appear to go against the
principles of the group? perhaps the principles of the group need to
be better defined. how long has this group existed?

Michele Moss
Infinity Computer Solutions
Great Falls, MT
406-727-5609
http://www.icstech.net

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>The parents who talk about teaching boys to sit quietly are called (in
>rather snippy tones) "you know, parents of girls"
>LJ

LOL...that's Hilarious! Of course, I am sure you are not referring to
parents with "Spirited" girls. Now that is a whole 'nother barrel of
crackers!

Nanci K. in Idaho (mom to 2 boys and no girls....yet!)

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/28/03 5:50:41 AM Eastern Standard Time,
andrea@... writes:

> Our "spirited" children are so undervalued

Anyone ever hear of Cynthia Ulrich Tobias? I have seen her books referenced
on homeschooling lists of books...well, one night I heard her speak on Focus
on the Family and I ordered the tape, because it really spoke to me about
handing spirited children. I highly recommend the tape, you can probably
still get it on the FOTF website, it was recent.....I also will be reading
her books on spirited children and learning styles...I also like Mary Sheedy
Kurcinka, her book on tape at the library was helpful, now I own the
paperback of it--Raising Your Spirited Child....it is geared more toward the
younger children....I learned a lot about temperament and how to accept and
manage the way my child is wired. A few years back I used to resent having
such a difficult,
refusing-to-be-a-good-school-student-that-made-me-look-bad-as-a-parent-child.
Now I am thankful that God would trust me with such a wonderfully curious and
fascinating creature. Some days are tough but coming from a position of love
instead of fear makes such a difference. I just hope I can reverse enough of
the damage I did to my beautiful child with my stupid selfish attitude that I
had.
Ang
Unschooling mom to
Megan(10) Ashlyn(3) Christian(1.5)
<A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/unolist/index.html">UNO Unschoolers Network of Ohio</A>
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/megamom08/page1.html">My Links Page MEGAMOM08</A>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/28/03 10:46:43 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Anyone ever hear of Cynthia Ulrich Tobias? >>

I remember several years ago I was driving in the car and happened to catch
her on the radio. She was talking about people that see the forest and people
that see the trees and explaining the ways they learn and how they percieve
the world differently.
I broke down crying because I thought for the first time EVER "I'm OK just
the way I am".
My disorganization and haphazard methods were always seen as a problem, as a
weakness and I never realized I could just be DIFFERENT and myself and it was
OK.
I had to be an adult before learning that.
Isn't it great that our kids will always know that?
I am now using those personality differences to BE what I was meant to be. To
do the things I love and not try to be anyone else. It's such a wonderful
thing to realize. Unschooling has healed me tremendously...I'm finally
pursuing the life I was meant to live.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

Betsy

**Anyone ever hear of Cynthia Ulrich Tobias? **

I liked Tobias' book on learning styles, whatever the title was.

**A few years back I used to resent having
such a difficult,
refusing-to-be-a-good-school-student-that-made-me-look-bad-as-a-parent-child.
Now I am thankful that God would trust me with such a wonderfully
curious and
fascinating creature. Some days are tough but coming from a position of
love
instead of fear makes such a difference.**

Yeah, obedience is overrated. It certainly makes dull people. I'm
*glad* you are able to find your child fascinating.

Betsy