Handwriting
Peter Kowalke
I agree with Joel. Don't make a big fuss about handwriting. If and when
there is a need for good handwriting, the unschooler will find a way to
improve the way he or she writes.
The thoughts that come from the hand of my 17 year old brother are never
weak, even though his handwriting has more in common with some ancient,
indecipherable and long gone language. His handwriting is poor enough that
he he knows it is hard for others to read his handwriting--but not such a
hinderance that he feels that he must improve. His solution is to use a
computer for most of his public writing.
For my own part, I had very poor handwriting until I started a daily
journal. I was a new 14 at the time. Writing in the journal cleaned up my
scribbles in short order. My handwriting was perfectly legible by journal #2
or 3, I think.
The journal also helped me to learn cursive. Until age 16, I didn't need
cursive. Once a need arose, though, I decided to use cursive exclusively in
my journal. The first few weeks were rough. Each day, cursive chart in hand,
I would labor over my journal for 45 minutes to an hour. The pace was very
slow, but after a month my cursive was better than most of my friends.
I was 17 when I finally picked up cursive. I still don't know how to
whistle... Maybe I'll find a need for whistling when I learn to herd cattle
or something.
-Peter (who is 20, incidentally)
--
Peter Kowalke
P.O. Box 772
Mentor, OH 44061
pkowalke@...
----------
there is a need for good handwriting, the unschooler will find a way to
improve the way he or she writes.
The thoughts that come from the hand of my 17 year old brother are never
weak, even though his handwriting has more in common with some ancient,
indecipherable and long gone language. His handwriting is poor enough that
he he knows it is hard for others to read his handwriting--but not such a
hinderance that he feels that he must improve. His solution is to use a
computer for most of his public writing.
For my own part, I had very poor handwriting until I started a daily
journal. I was a new 14 at the time. Writing in the journal cleaned up my
scribbles in short order. My handwriting was perfectly legible by journal #2
or 3, I think.
The journal also helped me to learn cursive. Until age 16, I didn't need
cursive. Once a need arose, though, I decided to use cursive exclusively in
my journal. The first few weeks were rough. Each day, cursive chart in hand,
I would labor over my journal for 45 minutes to an hour. The pace was very
slow, but after a month my cursive was better than most of my friends.
I was 17 when I finally picked up cursive. I still don't know how to
whistle... Maybe I'll find a need for whistling when I learn to herd cattle
or something.
-Peter (who is 20, incidentally)
--
Peter Kowalke
P.O. Box 772
Mentor, OH 44061
pkowalke@...
----------
>From: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 144
>Date: Tue, Aug 10, 1999, 2:33 PM
>
> Leave it be. When they get to the point where it is important for them they
> will learn it. My daughter works on her signature because she has now had
> occasion to use it but handwriting eh? who really needs it much these
> days...really? Our six year old copies letters all the time though she can't
> read much at all. Her sister never copied letters, hand writes poorly and
> reads years beyond her age. Handwriting is, in fact, a great place to drive
> everyone totally nuts. Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
> intentioned "teachers" putting pressure on them. Leave it be. This is of
> course very much from the unschooling perspective.
Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst
I suppose I must be grateful my 7yo loves to "play" at writing. She dabbles
in cursive, 'bubble' letters, printing, italics etc. Of course, that's
part of the joy of unschooling....She plays/learns what she is thrilled
by...others do the same in their areas of fun/need/talent/etc.
Susan
in cursive, 'bubble' letters, printing, italics etc. Of course, that's
part of the joy of unschooling....She plays/learns what she is thrilled
by...others do the same in their areas of fun/need/talent/etc.
Susan
>From: "Peter Kowalke" <pkowalke@...>#2
>
>I agree with Joel. Don't make a big fuss about handwriting. If and when
>there is a need for good handwriting, the unschooler will find a way to
>improve the way he or she writes.
>
>The thoughts that come from the hand of my 17 year old brother are never
>weak, even though his handwriting has more in common with some ancient,
>indecipherable and long gone language. His handwriting is poor enough that
>he he knows it is hard for others to read his handwriting--but not such a
>hinderance that he feels that he must improve. His solution is to use a
>computer for most of his public writing.
>
>For my own part, I had very poor handwriting until I started a daily
>journal. I was a new 14 at the time. Writing in the journal cleaned up my
>scribbles in short order. My handwriting was perfectly legible by journal
>or 3, I think.hand,
>
>The journal also helped me to learn cursive. Until age 16, I didn't need
>cursive. Once a need arose, though, I decided to use cursive exclusively in
>my journal. The first few weeks were rough. Each day, cursive chart in
>I would labor over my journal for 45 minutes to an hour. The pace was verythey
>slow, but after a month my cursive was better than most of my friends.
>
>I was 17 when I finally picked up cursive. I still don't know how to
>whistle... Maybe I'll find a need for whistling when I learn to herd cattle
>or something.
>
>-Peter (who is 20, incidentally)
>
>--
>Peter Kowalke
>P.O. Box 772
>Mentor, OH 44061
>pkowalke@...
>
>----------
>>From: [email protected]
>>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 144
>>Date: Tue, Aug 10, 1999, 2:33 PM
>>
>
>> Leave it be. When they get to the point where it is important for them
>> will learn it. My daughter works on her signature because she has nowhad
>> occasion to use it but handwriting eh? who really needs it much thesecan't
>> days...really? Our six year old copies letters all the time though she
>> read much at all. Her sister never copied letters, hand writes poorlyand
>> reads years beyond her age. Handwriting is, in fact, a great place todrive
>> everyone totally nuts. Many a happy learner has been made miserable bywell
>> intentioned "teachers" putting pressure on them. Leave it be. This isof
>> course very much from the unschooling perspective.
>
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[email protected]
Hey Peter...
I'm just curious about this...
<< For my own part, I had very poor handwriting until I started a daily
journal. I was a new 14 at the time. >>
Do you remember what inspired you to start this journal? If you want to
share the info., I'd love to hear it.
Thanks. (I like your name...I have a son named Peter, too. He's 8. :)
Carol B.
I'm just curious about this...
<< For my own part, I had very poor handwriting until I started a daily
journal. I was a new 14 at the time. >>
Do you remember what inspired you to start this journal? If you want to
share the info., I'd love to hear it.
Thanks. (I like your name...I have a son named Peter, too. He's 8. :)
Carol B.
[email protected])
Peter,
I didn't catch where this orginally came from but thanks you for
your comments. I have a 9yob who has been asking about learning to write
(penmanship that is). We have a paper route and the checks will be coming
in his name so hopefully he will learn to sign his name at least.
Why did you need cursive at 16? Fro a job or something else? I have
a 13yob who hates cursive. He has beautiful printing and that is what he
prefers.
Barb E
I didn't catch where this orginally came from but thanks you for
your comments. I have a 9yob who has been asking about learning to write
(penmanship that is). We have a paper route and the checks will be coming
in his name so hopefully he will learn to sign his name at least.
Why did you need cursive at 16? Fro a job or something else? I have
a 13yob who hates cursive. He has beautiful printing and that is what he
prefers.
Barb E
>From: "Peter Kowalke" <pkowalke@...>
>
>I agree with Joel. Don't make a big fuss about handwriting. If and when
>there is a need for good handwriting, the unschooler will find a way to
>improve the way he or she writes.
>
>The thoughts that come from the hand of my 17 year old brother are never
>weak, even though his handwriting has more in common with some ancient,
>indecipherable and long gone language. His handwriting is poor enough that
>he he knows it is hard for others to read his handwriting--but not such a
>hinderance that he feels that he must improve. His solution is to use a
>computer for most of his public writing.
>
>For my own part, I had very poor handwriting until I started a daily
>journal. I was a new 14 at the time. Writing in the journal cleaned up my
>scribbles in short order. My handwriting was perfectly legible by journal #2
>or 3, I think.
>
>The journal also helped me to learn cursive. Until age 16, I didn't need
>cursive. Once a need arose, though, I decided to use cursive exclusively in
>my journal. The first few weeks were rough. Each day, cursive chart in hand,
>I would labor over my journal for 45 minutes to an hour. The pace was very
>slow, but after a month my cursive was better than most of my friends.
>
>I was 17 when I finally picked up cursive. I still don't know how to
>whistle... Maybe I'll find a need for whistling when I learn to herd cattle
>or something.
>
>-Peter (who is 20, incidentally)
>
>--
>Peter Kowalke
>P.O. Box 772
>Mentor, OH 44061
>pkowalke@...
>
>----------
>>From: [email protected]
>>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 144
>>Date: Tue, Aug 10, 1999, 2:33 PM
>>
>
>> Leave it be. When they get to the point where it is important for them they
>> will learn it. My daughter works on her signature because she has now had
>> occasion to use it but handwriting eh? who really needs it much these
>> days...really? Our six year old copies letters all the time though she can't
>> read much at all. Her sister never copied letters, hand writes poorly and
>> reads years beyond her age. Handwriting is, in fact, a great place to drive
>> everyone totally nuts. Many a happy learner has been made miserable by well
>> intentioned "teachers" putting pressure on them. Leave it be. This is of
>> course very much from the unschooling perspective.
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 08/10/1999 6:35:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
pkowalke@... writes:
<< I was 17 when I finally picked up cursive. I still don't know how to
whistle... Maybe I'll find a need for whistling when I learn to herd cattle
or something.
-Peter (who is 20, incidentally)
missed you....have you always been home or unschooled?
Sam(antha)
pkowalke@... writes:
<< I was 17 when I finally picked up cursive. I still don't know how to
whistle... Maybe I'll find a need for whistling when I learn to herd cattle
or something.
-Peter (who is 20, incidentally)
>>LOL, Peter!!! Are you new to this list? I'm kinda new so maybe I just
missed you....have you always been home or unschooled?
Sam(antha)
Karen & David Hoogland
My ten year just despises cursive....he has a difficult time keeping the
fluid motion going. My eight year old loves it! Both are boys. It used to
frustrate me until my dh made a good point: He never uses cursive in day to
day stuff (he is a carpenter and is continually filling in orders and report
sheets)...and he gets along just fine.
And really, most of the 'important' stuff is done on the computer...and the
ten year olds keyboard skills are pretty darn good!!
------------------------------------------
Karen and David Hoogland �
kdhoogland@...
kdhoogland@...
******************************
Check out our Webpages!!
http://members.tripod.com/~Hoagys/index.html
Updated 8/9/99
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fluid motion going. My eight year old loves it! Both are boys. It used to
frustrate me until my dh made a good point: He never uses cursive in day to
day stuff (he is a carpenter and is continually filling in orders and report
sheets)...and he gets along just fine.
And really, most of the 'important' stuff is done on the computer...and the
ten year olds keyboard skills are pretty darn good!!
------------------------------------------
Karen and David Hoogland �
kdhoogland@...
kdhoogland@...
******************************
Check out our Webpages!!
http://members.tripod.com/~Hoagys/index.html
Updated 8/9/99
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[email protected]
Didn't John Holt say in one of his books (sorry, can't remember which one)
that printing was actually FASTER than cursive?? I think this was in
response to exactly this question!!
Sam
that printing was actually FASTER than cursive?? I think this was in
response to exactly this question!!
Sam
[email protected]
Thank you so much, Peter and everyone, for your input on the handwriting.
I am new to UNschooling and I'm afraid I'm still stuck in that old
"everything falls on me" homeschooling mindset. It's hard for me to sit back
and leave it up to my kiddos! We've been under fire by family members lately
too, so I am questioning some things simply because of that. Anyway, thank
you again, Lori in TX
I am new to UNschooling and I'm afraid I'm still stuck in that old
"everything falls on me" homeschooling mindset. It's hard for me to sit back
and leave it up to my kiddos! We've been under fire by family members lately
too, so I am questioning some things simply because of that. Anyway, thank
you again, Lori in TX
[email protected]
The handwriting discussion makes me think of just how different the *what
every child needs to know* is for this generation, and how impossible it is
to move the system at the pace at which the needs are changing.
Typing was something I learned in 8th grade. I didn't use it again until'
late highschool. I used it a few times in college.
Now, however, keyboarding and computer skills just blow many others away
proportionally. I don't mean that handwriting and cursive are not important,
because imo it IS very useful and wonderful to have nice handwriting
overall, but it's NOT of utter importance--the way it's often stressed in
school.
The other thing, is that it clicks at some point.
My 7yo dd has struggled with her motor skills, but she's enjoyed what she's
doing. One day her handwriting was, from outside appearances, sloppy. The
next day, literally, it was neat and lovely.
She asked to learn cursive this summer, so I bought a workbook. She's loving
it-taking it to bed often, practicing, thrilled with her own efforts and
mastery. Something clicked.
That's something that I don't believe can be forced from the outside--that
click--in any area of learning.
Steph
every child needs to know* is for this generation, and how impossible it is
to move the system at the pace at which the needs are changing.
Typing was something I learned in 8th grade. I didn't use it again until'
late highschool. I used it a few times in college.
Now, however, keyboarding and computer skills just blow many others away
proportionally. I don't mean that handwriting and cursive are not important,
because imo it IS very useful and wonderful to have nice handwriting
overall, but it's NOT of utter importance--the way it's often stressed in
school.
The other thing, is that it clicks at some point.
My 7yo dd has struggled with her motor skills, but she's enjoyed what she's
doing. One day her handwriting was, from outside appearances, sloppy. The
next day, literally, it was neat and lovely.
She asked to learn cursive this summer, so I bought a workbook. She's loving
it-taking it to bed often, practicing, thrilled with her own efforts and
mastery. Something clicked.
That's something that I don't believe can be forced from the outside--that
click--in any area of learning.
Steph
Joel Hawthorne
Barb Eaton wrote:
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
> From: homemama@... (Barb Eaton)best wishes
>
> Peter,
> I didn't catch where this orginally came from but thanks you for
> your comments. I have a 9yob who has been asking about learning to write
> (penmanship that is). We have a paper route and the checks will be coming
> in his name so hopefully he will learn to sign his name at least.
> Why did you need cursive at 16? Fro a job or something else? I have
> a 13yob who hates cursive. He has beautiful printing and that is what he
> prefers.
>
> Barb E
>
> >I heard somewhere that cursive is really no faster than printing and in fact can
> be slower. In that same elusive story was some explanation of where the whole
> cursive "thing" started. That part of my brain seems to be on vacation.--
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e. restorative
justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
linjoy w
Actually John Holt said that for some people printing was faster. He did
an experiment with the kids trying it both ways. I don't remember which
book either.
On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:55:26 EDT Sam926@... writes:
an experiment with the kids trying it both ways. I don't remember which
book either.
On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 08:55:26 EDT Sam926@... writes:
>From: Sam926@...
>
>Didn't John Holt say in one of his books (sorry, can't remember which
>one)
>that printing was actually FASTER than cursive?? I think this was in
>
>response to exactly this question!!
>
>Sam
>
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mrstar
<<<Actually John Holt said that for some people printing was faster. He did
an experiment with the kids trying it both ways. I don't remember which
book either.>>>
It has to have been either 'Learning all the Time' or ' How Children Learn'
as those are the only Holt books I have read and I recognize what you are
talking about.
Mary in Idaho
an experiment with the kids trying it both ways. I don't remember which
book either.>>>
It has to have been either 'Learning all the Time' or ' How Children Learn'
as those are the only Holt books I have read and I recognize what you are
talking about.
Mary in Idaho
Mowery Family
>>Actually John Holt said that for some people printing was faster. He didan experiment with the kids trying it both ways. I don't remember which
book either. <<<
If memory serves me right (fat chance), I believe it was in either Learning All The Time, How Children Fail or How Children Learn.
Maybe - maybe not,
Karen Mowery
[email protected]
[email protected]
>But on the other hand I may sit her at the table to practice herI had horrid handwriting through most of my school experience. Teachers
>handwriting so it is legible whether she wants to or not.
>Some things are difficult. There are a great many things I am not in
>love with doing that must nonetheless be done.
tried shaming me with grades and parent/teacher conferences and my
parents prodded. It wasn't until Junior High and the INTEREST in
handwriting as a form of self-expression kicked in that I began to work
on this skill. I know many adults who never came to this event and still
have only passable handwriting.
My daughter (11) has just entered the phase of interest in her
handwriting and she did it without the shaming and prodding. I think
it's about the individual and the only thing the forcing of "practice"
does is cause feelings of resentment.
Handwriting, after all, is about written communication. The parents
needs to trust their child to understand the need for this and make
whatever adjustments are necessary. Heck, a lot of folks have graduated
medical school without legible handwriting!! *grin*
Kris
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rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., louisam1@j... wrote:
She's frustrated because her handwriting is hurting her chances.
(Having been involved in hiring at the hotel, I know it's true,
and so does she. Not fair, but true.) Yet, she is independent enough
to want to fill the forms out herself. So she is trying harder. I
ache for her because I had the same problem and I didn't find a decent
looking handwriting until I was about her age.
But I truly believe that nothing would have made this problem of hers
any better. No amount of practice would have helped until she was
ready. Just as all that handwriting practice I did in grade school
did nothing for me.
Bridget
>graduated
> Handwriting, after all, is about written communication. The parents
> needs to trust their child to understand the need for this and make
> whatever adjustments are necessary. Heck, a lot of folks have
> medical school without legible handwriting!! *grin*Rachel has AWFUL handwriting. She is 17 and trying to get a job.
>
> Kris
She's frustrated because her handwriting is hurting her chances.
(Having been involved in hiring at the hotel, I know it's true,
and so does she. Not fair, but true.) Yet, she is independent enough
to want to fill the forms out herself. So she is trying harder. I
ache for her because I had the same problem and I didn't find a decent
looking handwriting until I was about her age.
But I truly believe that nothing would have made this problem of hers
any better. No amount of practice would have helped until she was
ready. Just as all that handwriting practice I did in grade school
did nothing for me.
Bridget
Lynda
How were you taught in school? I've always been curious. I know how I
learned (not in school) and I've always wondered if the ways it is taught
have a big difference in how legible the handwriting is and if it were
taught differently (to those in ps) if they would have less trouble with it.
Lynda
learned (not in school) and I've always wondered if the ways it is taught
have a big difference in how legible the handwriting is and if it were
taught differently (to those in ps) if they would have less trouble with it.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "rumpleteasermom" <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 22, 2002 6:03 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Handwriting
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., louisam1@j... wrote:
>
> >
> > Handwriting, after all, is about written communication. The parents
> > needs to trust their child to understand the need for this and make
> > whatever adjustments are necessary. Heck, a lot of folks have
> graduated
> > medical school without legible handwriting!! *grin*
> >
> > Kris
>
> Rachel has AWFUL handwriting. She is 17 and trying to get a job.
> She's frustrated because her handwriting is hurting her chances.
> (Having been involved in hiring at the hotel, I know it's true,
> and so does she. Not fair, but true.) Yet, she is independent enough
> to want to fill the forms out herself. So she is trying harder. I
> ache for her because I had the same problem and I didn't find a decent
> looking handwriting until I was about her age.
>
> But I truly believe that nothing would have made this problem of hers
> any better. No amount of practice would have helped until she was
> ready. Just as all that handwriting practice I did in grade school
> did nothing for me.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
rumpleteasermom
We had a letter chart and lots of handouts. I don't know the name of
the method but my mom might. I'll try to remember to ask her.
We had always blamed my bad handwriting on the fact that I had a
broken left arm the first six weeks of handwriting so I never learned
to hold the paper down instinctively. But I think that's a load of
whooey now.
Bridget
the method but my mom might. I'll try to remember to ask her.
We had always blamed my bad handwriting on the fact that I had a
broken left arm the first six weeks of handwriting so I never learned
to hold the paper down instinctively. But I think that's a load of
whooey now.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> How were you taught in school? I've always been curious. I know
how I
> learned (not in school) and I've always wondered if the ways it is
taught
> have a big difference in how legible the handwriting is and if it
were
> taught differently (to those in ps) if they would have less trouble
with it.
>
> Lynda
rumpleteasermom
Hey Lynda,
Mom says it was the Zaner-Blosser method. And she said she learned
with the Palmer method. Her handwriting is WAY better than mine.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:
Mom says it was the Zaner-Blosser method. And she said she learned
with the Palmer method. Her handwriting is WAY better than mine.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:
> We had a letter chart and lots of handouts. I don't know the nameof
> the method but my mom might. I'll try to remember to ask her.learned
>
> We had always blamed my bad handwriting on the fact that I had a
> broken left arm the first six weeks of handwriting so I never
> to hold the paper down instinctively. But I think that's a load of
> whooey now.
>
> Bridget
>
Lynda
My little sister and I learned at home from our dad. He did lots of writing
and so he got us each a little package of that paper they use to sell to
send letters airmail. Then he used a black pen to make us the heavy lines
and dotted lines. As he wrote and we asked questions, he showed us how all
letters are really made up of loops, circles and straight lines. Then he
showed us how to make animals out of the letters. We had those big old fat
crayons and it wasn't "sit down and learn," but a shared time that we had
asked for and while he wrote his letters, we played "big people" and wrote
our letters.
Wasn't long before we could write letters and then words complete with all
the flourishes of old-fashioned writing.
I think the thing was that it was fun and drawing and mostly just doing
connected loops and circles at first.
Lynda
and so he got us each a little package of that paper they use to sell to
send letters airmail. Then he used a black pen to make us the heavy lines
and dotted lines. As he wrote and we asked questions, he showed us how all
letters are really made up of loops, circles and straight lines. Then he
showed us how to make animals out of the letters. We had those big old fat
crayons and it wasn't "sit down and learn," but a shared time that we had
asked for and while he wrote his letters, we played "big people" and wrote
our letters.
Wasn't long before we could write letters and then words complete with all
the flourishes of old-fashioned writing.
I think the thing was that it was fun and drawing and mostly just doing
connected loops and circles at first.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "rumpleteasermom" <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:09 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Handwriting
> Hey Lynda,
>
> Mom says it was the Zaner-Blosser method. And she said she learned
> with the Palmer method. Her handwriting is WAY better than mine.
>
> Bridget
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "rumpleteasermom"
> <rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:
> > We had a letter chart and lots of handouts. I don't know the name
> of
> > the method but my mom might. I'll try to remember to ask her.
> >
> > We had always blamed my bad handwriting on the fact that I had a
> > broken left arm the first six weeks of handwriting so I never
> learned
> > to hold the paper down instinctively. But I think that's a load of
> > whooey now.
> >
> > Bridget
> >
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/23/2002 7:12:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:
"handwriting."
I do, however, remember always wanting to "impress" the teacher.
And being, always, better able to relate to teachers than to other students.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lurine@... writes:
> I think the thing was that it was fun and drawing and mostly just doingI truly do not remember when these fun circles and loops began to be
> connected loops and circles at first.
>
"handwriting."
I do, however, remember always wanting to "impress" the teacher.
And being, always, better able to relate to teachers than to other students.
Kate Davis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
I got in trouble with teachers because I could read and write before I
started school. My first grade teacher sent home a note saying that I would
be punished for using cursive because it made the other children feel like
they were failures or some such nonsense.
Other than K, I don't remember a "good" teacher except the algebra teacher
in 8th or 9th grade. I also remember wishing my last name started with "z"
instead of "b" so that I wouldn't have to sit in the front of the class <g>
Lynda
started school. My first grade teacher sent home a note saying that I would
be punished for using cursive because it made the other children feel like
they were failures or some such nonsense.
Other than K, I don't remember a "good" teacher except the algebra teacher
in 8th or 9th grade. I also remember wishing my last name started with "z"
instead of "b" so that I wouldn't have to sit in the front of the class <g>
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <Katedavislawfirm@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Handwriting
> In a message dated 4/23/2002 7:12:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> lurine@... writes:
>
>
> > I think the thing was that it was fun and drawing and mostly just doing
> > connected loops and circles at first.
> >
>
> I truly do not remember when these fun circles and loops began to be
> "handwriting."
>
> I do, however, remember always wanting to "impress" the teacher.
>
> And being, always, better able to relate to teachers than to other
students.
>
> Kate Davis
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
rumpleteasermom
Lynda,
That sounds a lot like a modified Palmer kind of thing. Like maybe
your dad learned Palmer and was making it more fun while he showed it
to you. As my mom described it, Palmer first concentrates on
just drawing loops - then after you get that, you start connecting
them up and making letters.
Bridget
That sounds a lot like a modified Palmer kind of thing. Like maybe
your dad learned Palmer and was making it more fun while he showed it
to you. As my mom described it, Palmer first concentrates on
just drawing loops - then after you get that, you start connecting
them up and making letters.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> My little sister and I learned at home from our dad. He did lots of
writing
> and so he got us each a little package of that paper they use to
sell to
> send letters airmail. Then he used a black pen to make us the heavy
lines
> and dotted lines. As he wrote and we asked questions, he showed us
how all
> letters are really made up of loops, circles and straight lines.
Then he
> showed us how to make animals out of the letters. We had those big
old fat
> crayons and it wasn't "sit down and learn," but a shared time that
we had
> asked for and while he wrote his letters, we played "big people" and
wrote
> our letters.
>
> Wasn't long before we could write letters and then words complete
with all
> the flourishes of old-fashioned writing.
>
> I think the thing was that it was fun and drawing and mostly just
doing
> connected loops and circles at first.
>
> Lynda
Lynda
Well, all I know is that it was fun and "s" makes a great swan and "p" makes
a great pound puppy <g>
Lynda
a great pound puppy <g>
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "rumpleteasermom" <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 5:45 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Handwriting
> Lynda,
>
> That sounds a lot like a modified Palmer kind of thing. Like maybe
> your dad learned Palmer and was making it more fun while he showed it
> to you. As my mom described it, Palmer first concentrates on
> just drawing loops - then after you get that, you start connecting
> them up and making letters.
>
> Bridget
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> > My little sister and I learned at home from our dad. He did lots of
> writing
> > and so he got us each a little package of that paper they use to
> sell to
> > send letters airmail. Then he used a black pen to make us the heavy
> lines
> > and dotted lines. As he wrote and we asked questions, he showed us
> how all
> > letters are really made up of loops, circles and straight lines.
> Then he
> > showed us how to make animals out of the letters. We had those big
> old fat
> > crayons and it wasn't "sit down and learn," but a shared time that
> we had
> > asked for and while he wrote his letters, we played "big people" and
> wrote
> > our letters.
> >
> > Wasn't long before we could write letters and then words complete
> with all
> > the flourishes of old-fashioned writing.
> >
> > I think the thing was that it was fun and drawing and mostly just
> doing
> > connected loops and circles at first.
> >
> > Lynda
>
>
>
> ~~~ Don't forget! If you change the topic, change the subject line! ~~~
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
deedeanne
Hi All!
I have been on this list for a while and I don't think that I have
posted yet, although I have been thoroughly enjoying everyone else's
posts. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, comments, questions.
I don't often feel I have much to add, but on handwriting-well
finally I do!
I think a bit of an introduction is in order first, so you'll know
where I'm coming from with my comments. I am a 39yo mother to 3
wonderful children, a soon-to-be 13yo boy, a 7yo girl, and a 4yo
boy. My oldest went to a catholic school for K-5th grade, and my
daughter went part-time to a Lutheran pre-school, and the same
catholic school as my son for some pre-school. I
started "researching" homeschooling before my son finished fifth
grade, and moved into unschooling as quickly as I could learn about
it. All throughout this time, and for the last 15 years, I have been
working as an occupational therapist (full- or part-time) in the
public schools and early intervention programs.
A common part of my work is helping children with "handwriting
issues". It has always bothered me that teachers wanted little kids
to hold their pencils "properly", when they have not finished
developing their fine motor skills yet. Many kids fine motor skills
are not fully refined until age 8, some even later! Yet now, kids in
pre-K have to learn to write their name to be "ready" for
kindergarten, and kindergarteners are writing alot more than that.
It's so wrong, and I tell all the teachers of students I'm asked to
work with. They'll agree, but they are being asked to produce
results too, just like teachers at higher grades with testing. With
some of the older children I work with, the focus is on functional
writing. Can the child write legibly? If not, we look to other
options, like portable word processors, or the computers in the
classrooms, or notetakers,etc.
Well, I can get really carried away, but the main point I wanted to
stress is don't stress about pencil grip or handwriting. Let your
child lead the way, as in all things. If s/he wants to write, and is
having difficulty, there are a multitude of options out there to
try. Different pens, pencils, grips, papers, etc. Also, writing can
be done is so many mediums, like art (sand, clay, paint, beads,
etc.) And there's always typing!
Deanne
I have been on this list for a while and I don't think that I have
posted yet, although I have been thoroughly enjoying everyone else's
posts. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, comments, questions.
I don't often feel I have much to add, but on handwriting-well
finally I do!
I think a bit of an introduction is in order first, so you'll know
where I'm coming from with my comments. I am a 39yo mother to 3
wonderful children, a soon-to-be 13yo boy, a 7yo girl, and a 4yo
boy. My oldest went to a catholic school for K-5th grade, and my
daughter went part-time to a Lutheran pre-school, and the same
catholic school as my son for some pre-school. I
started "researching" homeschooling before my son finished fifth
grade, and moved into unschooling as quickly as I could learn about
it. All throughout this time, and for the last 15 years, I have been
working as an occupational therapist (full- or part-time) in the
public schools and early intervention programs.
A common part of my work is helping children with "handwriting
issues". It has always bothered me that teachers wanted little kids
to hold their pencils "properly", when they have not finished
developing their fine motor skills yet. Many kids fine motor skills
are not fully refined until age 8, some even later! Yet now, kids in
pre-K have to learn to write their name to be "ready" for
kindergarten, and kindergarteners are writing alot more than that.
It's so wrong, and I tell all the teachers of students I'm asked to
work with. They'll agree, but they are being asked to produce
results too, just like teachers at higher grades with testing. With
some of the older children I work with, the focus is on functional
writing. Can the child write legibly? If not, we look to other
options, like portable word processors, or the computers in the
classrooms, or notetakers,etc.
Well, I can get really carried away, but the main point I wanted to
stress is don't stress about pencil grip or handwriting. Let your
child lead the way, as in all things. If s/he wants to write, and is
having difficulty, there are a multitude of options out there to
try. Different pens, pencils, grips, papers, etc. Also, writing can
be done is so many mediums, like art (sand, clay, paint, beads,
etc.) And there's always typing!
Deanne
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/9/04 9:26:48 AM, deedeanne@... writes:
<< It has always bothered me that teachers wanted little kids
to hold their pencils "properly", when they have not finished
developing their fine motor skills yet. >>
It used to be, until the invention of the ballpoint pen, that they were
preparing kids to use pen and ink, either dip pens or fountain pens. Even when I
was a kid, our school still had some desks with holes for inkwells, and a slot
for a pen. The difference between a pencil slot and a pen slot, on an old
wooden desk, is that the pencil slot is flat and horizontal, and the pen slot is
angled, on the righthand side. That's one reason for slanted arms on desks
(if you were old enough to experience such a thing).
Poor lefties.
Some were just told to learn to write with their right hands, because the
teachers didn't know how to deal with liquid ink and lefties, and part of their
reaching over and around had to do with school desks, and liquid ink.
Ballpoints, though, work more like pencils in that the angle at which the
point touches the paper isn't crucial. An upstroke won't break a nib or flink
ink.
Palmer cursive has to do with pen-and-ink. If the pen isn't picked up
(pressure continues), the ink will keep flowing freely, so that connected writing
was created, and it IS pretty with a fountain pen (nowadays, cartridge pens are
the last easily available pen and ink for everyday use).
I bet 95% of the teachers who are teaching penmanship have NO idea of the
reasons behind what they're teaching, and the fact that so many of those things
are antiquated and no longer valid. It's just tradition, now. Hazing, almost.
"I had to learn it, so you have to learn it."
Sandra
<< It has always bothered me that teachers wanted little kids
to hold their pencils "properly", when they have not finished
developing their fine motor skills yet. >>
It used to be, until the invention of the ballpoint pen, that they were
preparing kids to use pen and ink, either dip pens or fountain pens. Even when I
was a kid, our school still had some desks with holes for inkwells, and a slot
for a pen. The difference between a pencil slot and a pen slot, on an old
wooden desk, is that the pencil slot is flat and horizontal, and the pen slot is
angled, on the righthand side. That's one reason for slanted arms on desks
(if you were old enough to experience such a thing).
Poor lefties.
Some were just told to learn to write with their right hands, because the
teachers didn't know how to deal with liquid ink and lefties, and part of their
reaching over and around had to do with school desks, and liquid ink.
Ballpoints, though, work more like pencils in that the angle at which the
point touches the paper isn't crucial. An upstroke won't break a nib or flink
ink.
Palmer cursive has to do with pen-and-ink. If the pen isn't picked up
(pressure continues), the ink will keep flowing freely, so that connected writing
was created, and it IS pretty with a fountain pen (nowadays, cartridge pens are
the last easily available pen and ink for everyday use).
I bet 95% of the teachers who are teaching penmanship have NO idea of the
reasons behind what they're teaching, and the fact that so many of those things
are antiquated and no longer valid. It's just tradition, now. Hazing, almost.
"I had to learn it, so you have to learn it."
Sandra
whitneyteam
We have been struggling with the handwriting issue for several years now
too. My son (almost 9) has an ackward pencil grip that seems to really
fatigue his wrist. I tried for ages to get him to change... but he just
physically can't seem to hold it like we all do.
We have done Handwriting Without Tears for 2 years now... and his
printing is still too large, too heavy, hard to read, and he doesn't put
enough space between his words. Last year, we tried to see if learning
cursive would help. It didn't. He hates writing in cursive because he
claims that it's too hard to read.
Bottomline is that my son absolutely hates to write and avoids it at all
costs. Since he's a strong Visual Spatial learner, he just sticks to
drawing pictures when he wants to "write something".
This year I was thinking about getting him a typing program, and I
wondered if anyone has any recommendations on which ones are good for
visual/spatial learners?
Gillian W.
whitneyteam@...
"I have never let my schooling interfere
with my education." -- Mark Twain
too. My son (almost 9) has an ackward pencil grip that seems to really
fatigue his wrist. I tried for ages to get him to change... but he just
physically can't seem to hold it like we all do.
We have done Handwriting Without Tears for 2 years now... and his
printing is still too large, too heavy, hard to read, and he doesn't put
enough space between his words. Last year, we tried to see if learning
cursive would help. It didn't. He hates writing in cursive because he
claims that it's too hard to read.
Bottomline is that my son absolutely hates to write and avoids it at all
costs. Since he's a strong Visual Spatial learner, he just sticks to
drawing pictures when he wants to "write something".
This year I was thinking about getting him a typing program, and I
wondered if anyone has any recommendations on which ones are good for
visual/spatial learners?
Gillian W.
whitneyteam@...
"I have never let my schooling interfere
with my education." -- Mark Twain
TreeGoddess
On Jul 11, 2004, at 11:06 AM, whitneyteam wrote:
My only recommendation is to leave the poor child alone. He'll write
how he'll write when/if he wants to write. It's not up to you what
his handwriting looks like, Hon. Lay off the little guy. :)
You do realize that what you've been doing is not unschooling, right?
-Tracy-
> [ We have been struggling with the handwriting issue for several yearsGillian,
> now
> too. ]
> [We have done Handwriting Without Tears for 2 years now... and his
> printing is still too large, too heavy, hard to read, and he doesn't
> put
> enough space between his words. Last year, we tried to see if learning
> cursive would help. It didn't. He hates writing in cursive because he
> claims that it's too hard to read.]
> Bottomline is that my son absolutely hates to write and avoids it at
> all
> costs. ]
> [This year I was thinking about getting him a typing program, and I
> wondered if anyone has any recommendations on which ones are good for
> visual/spatial learners?]
My only recommendation is to leave the poor child alone. He'll write
how he'll write when/if he wants to write. It's not up to you what
his handwriting looks like, Hon. Lay off the little guy. :)
You do realize that what you've been doing is not unschooling, right?
-Tracy-
24hrmom
<< This year I was thinking about getting him a typing program, and I
wondered if anyone has any recommendations on which ones are good for
visual/spatial learners?
Gillian W.>>
I too have a visual-spatial learner (at least that's his preferred style
:-) ) who strongly disliked writing. A couple years ago we talked about
learning to type instead and I picked up a couple of kid-oriented typing
programs. He tried them out once or twice. What eventually motivated him
was having a real interest ... a true need to learn to type. For him that
need was getting into online gaming. After two weeks playing online he was
a very proficient typist. In fact, even he remarked that he was surprised
how quickly he picked up the skill once he had a true reason to learn it.
Does your son have a reason he wants to learn to type .. .other than just
because he "hates" writing? You can pick him up a typing program or two to
try out, but don't be surprised if they don't hold his attention on their
own. A real reason will do so much more than any fancy piece of software to
motivate him to learn to type. When he's got a real reason, he can just
start typing! I guarantee he'll get faster with experience. ;-)
Nowadays I don't think my son - he's 12 now - harbours a "hatred" of writing
(something he developed in school), it's just not his communication method
of choice. I do sometimes see notes with game codes, web site addresses
etc. laying around in his handwriting, which also seems more legible now
since he has a real need to be able to read it!
Pam L
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca
wondered if anyone has any recommendations on which ones are good for
visual/spatial learners?
Gillian W.>>
I too have a visual-spatial learner (at least that's his preferred style
:-) ) who strongly disliked writing. A couple years ago we talked about
learning to type instead and I picked up a couple of kid-oriented typing
programs. He tried them out once or twice. What eventually motivated him
was having a real interest ... a true need to learn to type. For him that
need was getting into online gaming. After two weeks playing online he was
a very proficient typist. In fact, even he remarked that he was surprised
how quickly he picked up the skill once he had a true reason to learn it.
Does your son have a reason he wants to learn to type .. .other than just
because he "hates" writing? You can pick him up a typing program or two to
try out, but don't be surprised if they don't hold his attention on their
own. A real reason will do so much more than any fancy piece of software to
motivate him to learn to type. When he's got a real reason, he can just
start typing! I guarantee he'll get faster with experience. ;-)
Nowadays I don't think my son - he's 12 now - harbours a "hatred" of writing
(something he developed in school), it's just not his communication method
of choice. I do sometimes see notes with game codes, web site addresses
etc. laying around in his handwriting, which also seems more legible now
since he has a real need to be able to read it!
Pam L
http://www.livingjoyfully.ca
TreeGoddess
On Jul 11, 2004, at 11:58 AM, TreeGoddess wrote:
because it sounds a lot less kind than I intended it to be. Sorry. ;)
-Tracy-
> My only recommendation is to leave the poor child alone. He'll writeI just reread my post and I think I may have jotted it off in haste
> how he'll write when/if he wants to write. It's not up to you what
> his handwriting looks like, Hon. Lay off the little guy. :)
because it sounds a lot less kind than I intended it to be. Sorry. ;)
-Tracy-
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/11/04 10:26:37 AM, whitneyteam@... writes:
<< We have done Handwriting Without Tears for 2 years now... and his
printing is still too large, too heavy, hard to read, and he doesn't put
enough space between his words. >>
He's "almost 9" and you've been doing this for two years?
School makes kids hate to write.
You can do the same damage at home, and it seems you might already have done
so.
So my best advice is to learn from that mistake and not procede to make him
hate math and reading and science and history!!
My kids weren't taught to write. Holly (12) has an artsy (but awkward)
cursive. Marty (14, and a lefty) prints very small. Small printing is very
useful, and some professionals learn it later in life, or used to, anyway
(architects, cartoonists, cartographers). In school they teach people to write the
same size because of pre-lined paper, and for filling-in-blanks purposes. Few
adults write on pre-lined paper, and blanks are increasingly filled in "print
only" (next time you fill in public forms, see if they don't ask you to print,
and maybe in spaced designed for transferring it to data entry!).
A couple of weeks ago, I saw Kirby (17) fill in blanks by hand, quickly. He
was judging karate belt tests, just him and the sensei of the dojo where he
goes. He prints, but I guess it was acceptable. He's been doing that for a few
years.
But here's what about that: They don't mind writing. They don't fear it.
When they need it they use it, and they usually use the computer.
I found a sample of Marty-writing in the trash yesterday, and knowing he had
used my computer to write the day before, I did a Sherlock search to see how
the final copy had turned out.
It was a character description with stats and lists of previous projects (of
the character).
Some words were misspelled by hand, but corrected on the computer. He had
run spell check. It didn't catch "fallow" because it's a real word. He meant
"follow." So I told him what "fallow" meant, and now he knows two words and
their spellings.
The misspellings he corrected were
aproched
offerd
spoted
Some words he spelled correctly were
previous
couldn't
joined
aced
every
something
He needs punctuation help. Sometime when we're the only two in the room,
I'll show him a couple of ways to know when to use a comma, if he's in the mood.
But...
I could read it all (even though it was only written for Marty's own use),
and it's interesting!
So although I know the topic was handwriting, not writing in general, I think
making a six year old (or eight, or nine) practice writing is more likely to
make him dislike it than like it. It doesn't contribute to peace and trust
between the parent and child. It's not something I'd recommend at all.
Sandra
<< We have done Handwriting Without Tears for 2 years now... and his
printing is still too large, too heavy, hard to read, and he doesn't put
enough space between his words. >>
He's "almost 9" and you've been doing this for two years?
School makes kids hate to write.
You can do the same damage at home, and it seems you might already have done
so.
So my best advice is to learn from that mistake and not procede to make him
hate math and reading and science and history!!
My kids weren't taught to write. Holly (12) has an artsy (but awkward)
cursive. Marty (14, and a lefty) prints very small. Small printing is very
useful, and some professionals learn it later in life, or used to, anyway
(architects, cartoonists, cartographers). In school they teach people to write the
same size because of pre-lined paper, and for filling-in-blanks purposes. Few
adults write on pre-lined paper, and blanks are increasingly filled in "print
only" (next time you fill in public forms, see if they don't ask you to print,
and maybe in spaced designed for transferring it to data entry!).
A couple of weeks ago, I saw Kirby (17) fill in blanks by hand, quickly. He
was judging karate belt tests, just him and the sensei of the dojo where he
goes. He prints, but I guess it was acceptable. He's been doing that for a few
years.
But here's what about that: They don't mind writing. They don't fear it.
When they need it they use it, and they usually use the computer.
I found a sample of Marty-writing in the trash yesterday, and knowing he had
used my computer to write the day before, I did a Sherlock search to see how
the final copy had turned out.
It was a character description with stats and lists of previous projects (of
the character).
Some words were misspelled by hand, but corrected on the computer. He had
run spell check. It didn't catch "fallow" because it's a real word. He meant
"follow." So I told him what "fallow" meant, and now he knows two words and
their spellings.
The misspellings he corrected were
aproched
offerd
spoted
Some words he spelled correctly were
previous
couldn't
joined
aced
every
something
He needs punctuation help. Sometime when we're the only two in the room,
I'll show him a couple of ways to know when to use a comma, if he's in the mood.
But...
I could read it all (even though it was only written for Marty's own use),
and it's interesting!
So although I know the topic was handwriting, not writing in general, I think
making a six year old (or eight, or nine) practice writing is more likely to
make him dislike it than like it. It doesn't contribute to peace and trust
between the parent and child. It's not something I'd recommend at all.
Sandra