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First, thank you to all who responded to my post about kidnapping. I
still have a lot of posts to read, but I just wanted to say thank
you. I'm not so terrified now. I guess in a way, it was the way I
was raised, and I'm glad I haven't raised my kids with the same fears.

My problem now, is about lying. 4yo ds lies to us a lot. I don't
understand why. I lied all the time as a kid to try to keep from
getting in trouble. But since he never gets in trouble about
anything, and we rarely show disappointment - then only briefly (like
when he hits his sister), and he seems to be doing well. But still,
he lies to us, and then we do show disappointment. I just don't know
what to do. We have talked with him about it. DH told him that the
only time he will ever get in trouble is when he lies. I don't know
about that, but he seems to understand. For the moment anyway. Next
thing we know, he's lying about something else. Suggestions?

Melanie in Indiana
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Angela

What kind of lying is he doing?  I wouldn't make a big deal out of it at this age.  I am not sure they understand the gravity of it.
 

Angela
Unschooling mother in Maine to two beautiful daughters.
"Play is our brain's favorite way to learn."
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Tracy Oldfield

My problem now, is about lying. 4yo ds lies to us a lot. I don't 
understand why. I lied all the time as a kid to try to keep from 
getting in trouble. But since he never gets in trouble about 
anything, and we rarely show disappointment - then only briefly
(like 
when he hits his sister), and he seems to be doing well. But still, 
he lies to us, and then we do show disappointment. I just don't
know 
what to do. We have talked with him about it. DH told him that the 
only time he will ever get in trouble is when he lies. I don't know 
about that, but he seems to understand. For the moment anyway.
Next 
thing we know, he's lying about something else. Suggestions? 

Melanie in Indiana

I read somewhere that it was a natural thing for children around that
age to do, maybe mixing up real and not real, not sure abut that
myself... Maybe the threat being 'out there' is making him see how
far he can get before he's 'in trouble' and what being 'in trouble'
means, if it hasn't been specifically spelled out what being 'in
trouble' will mean to him. I had a bit of this with dd1, she's 5, it
seems to have stopped though... I told her that if I didn't know if
what she was saying was 'right' or not, I wouldn't be able to trust
what she was saying, and it was important for me to be able to
trust her. Maybe you could turn it around to something he could
relate to? Not sure what though...

Tricky one, this.

Tracy

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In a message dated 4/8/01 4:43:35 PM, vouget@... writes:

<< My problem now, is about lying. 4yo ds lies to us a lot. I don't
understand why. >>

He might not be old enough to understand the concept well. And boys are
sometimes slower than girls to become analytical and philosophical.

Instead of saying "You're lying" (which might cut of conversation and stun
him into defensiveness) you might say "Are you sure?" or "Is that how you
wish it had happened?" or something a little easier to recover from.

Being a liar is a bad thing--people won't trust him, other kids won't want to
play with him--but telling him all that when he might not really know what's
going on yet could scar him longterm.

If you get chances, tell stories of lies people told that they didn't need to
tell, and what the result was. Casually, not like "Here is your Instructive
Tale for today."

My kids all know "The Boy who Cried Wolf," and they have known since they
were little what it means, and it's not just about lying. The kid in that
story had a good reason to cry wolf--he was really lonely, being sent to work
all by himself. There could have been other solutions.

But if a kid complains too much about small hurts, it will be hard for
parents to get excited about a large hurt. If someone claims "no money" and
is found to have some, "no money" will cease to mean anything. (My husband
earned that one from saying "we're broke" when we weren't, and now I don't
believe him anymore about that--but we discussed it and he realizes he "cried
wolf," and so he is more specific now.)

These things are all too much for a four year old. Maybe you can figure out
a way to correct the stories you DO know in a gentle way so he sees what
kinds of exaggerations or denials he's making.

Please try to remember to give him a way out, a way to escape and re-group
and tell the story a different way. And the second way might not be "the
truth" either at first, but with practice and real reasons (not "consequeces"
made up), and with understanding and sympathy, I bet he'll come around within
a couple of years.

Sandra

DiamondAir

> From: vouget@...
> My problem now, is about lying. 4yo ds lies to us a lot. I don't
> understand why. I lied all the time as a kid to try to keep from
> getting in trouble. But since he never gets in trouble about
> anything, and we rarely show disappointment - then only briefly (like
> when he hits his sister), and he seems to be doing well.

Melanie,
Some wise person once told me that kids this age can't distinguish lying
from telling the truth very easily. Often what they are telling us is *what
they wish was true* and they tell it as if it was the truth. I've really
noticed this with my 4 y.o. Mostly, I try to avoid situations that would
make a lie inevitable. If I come into a room with my kids and my youngest is
crying, I don't turn to my son and say "What happened?" Most likely the
answer will be something like "She bumped her head on the wall" (even though
she's sitting in the middle of the room). What I do is just come into the
room and say "Asa is very hurt, do you need kisses Asa?" and I'll pick her
up and comfort her. At some point, my DS will often then either say "Sorry
Asa" (so apparently he caused the tears) or he'll say "I got really mad at
her" and I can help him process that emotion and talk about alternative
actions.
When something has happened (like for instance the toilet was overflowing)
and I asked my DS what happened and he told me "Nothing", I've just
emphasized to him that I need to know truly what the problem is in order to
fix it (in that case, turns out he flushed his underwear down the toilet).
Eventually, they will learn to tell the truth so that we can mutually solve
the problem. At this age, it's probably a hard thing for them to do. Kids
are very smart about what will and will not frustrate their parents,
regardless of whether we actively "show disappointment" or not. So often
they wish that the problem didn't happen or that they didn't cause it,
because they know that it IS a problem. And this is what they say - their
wish. Keeping that in mind makes it a lot easier to deal with effectively,
IMHO :-)

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "My pants are outgrowing me"
and Asa (10/5/99) "Potty pee! Potty pee! Potty pee!"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

[email protected]

<<Instead of saying "You're lying" (which might cut of conversation and
stun
him into defensiveness) you might say "Are you sure?" or "Is that how you

wish it had happened?" or something a little easier to recover from. >>

I agree with Sandra. I also try to phrase my questions so they aren't
given the opportunity to lie, if possible.

When my dd was 3 (mind you, she had the verbal and comprehension skills
of a 5 or 6 year old) we had a talk about honesty and I told her I would
never punish her for lying because no one, not even I, could MAKE her be
honest. I told her it was up to her if she wanted me and others to
believe her when she told us something. It was about WHO she wanted to
be.

I may have needed to go through the message with her once or twice again
but I doubt that she has lied to me more than twice since that time. She
has waited to tell me something if she thought I was in a less than
"optimal" mood but she has always told me.

I think the most important thing is to believe them unless you are given
proof otherwise. They can always come clean about a lie but you can't
ever take back an accusation. Knowing that you see them as trustworthy
(along with modeling honesty) may be their biggest motivation to be that
way.

Kris
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--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Angela" <unschooling@c...> wrote:
> What kind of lying is he doing?
*Well, last night, FE, I caught him cutting up the couch.
Cutting big chunks out of the fabric. "Michael, you're not supposed
to cut up the couch!" "I didn't do it. Rachel (his sister) did
it." "Or Michael, please don't hit your sister" (whenever I catch
him at it). "I didn't do it. She fell over by herself." I really
can't trust him anymore. Oh dear.

Melanie in Indiana

Angela

Yikes!  I have never had to deal with lying in such an instance, esp. combined with other behaviors, such as destruction of property.  I haven't completely followed this thread and maybe it has been asked, but can you think of something going on in his life that would make him do such destructive things?  Is he feeling  out of control in some other area of life.  Is he feeling like he lacks attention (the good kind) so that he would do something to get any kind of attention?  (including lying)  Sometimes, what seems trivila to us, can make a huge impact on our kids.  Is Daddy away?  Or has there been a death in the family or anything else not so obvious that has changed?  I hope you figure this out.  It is very sad to live that way.
 

Angela
Unschooling mother in Maine to two beautiful daughters.
"Play is our brain's favorite way to learn."
Unknown
Check out my themestream articles.
www.themestream.com/gspd_browse/author/view_author_info.gsp?auth_id=152256
Angela's Home School
www.geocities.com/autonomousangela  

 
     *Well, last night, FE, I caught him cutting up the couch. 
Cutting big chunks out of the fabric.  "Michael, you're not supposed
to cut up the couch!"  "I didn't do it.  Rachel (his sister) did
it."  "Or Michael, please don't hit your sister" (whenever I catch
him at it).  "I didn't do it.  She fell over by herself."  I really
can't trust him anymore.  Oh dear.

Melanie in Indiana



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--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Angela" <unschooling@c...> wrote:
> Yikes! I have never had to deal with lying in such an instance,
esp.
> combined with other behaviors, such as destruction of property. I
haven't
> completely followed this thread and maybe it has been asked, but
can you
> think of something going on in his life that would make him do such
> destructive things?
*He said he was just bored. Yikes is how I felt, too. I try so
hard not to overreact (I have a hard time with this, since my parents
always WAY overreacted), but I think I may have underreacted. I
really can't think of anything going on in his life, and neither can
he (so he says - I'll have to ask him another time) that would cause
him to feel angry or out of control, etc. He's normally such a good
kid.

Melanie in Indiana

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Maybe you could turn it around to something he could
> relate to? Not sure what though...
>
> Tricky one, this.
>
> Tracy



My eldest was about 5-6yrs (long time ago - cant remeber exact age)
when he would lie. I would be stood next to him and he would do
something, lets say pull the cats tail, I would say "dont pull the
cats tail" and he would look me in the eye and say "I didn't"!! He
was so convincing that he almost had me believing him.......This son
is the most honest truthfull person I know.

Marianne

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In a message dated 4/9/01 9:07:35 AM, louisam1@... writes:

<< They can always come clean about a lie but you can't
ever take back an accusation. >>

True, and scary.

Once when Kirby was very young (7?) he stole a $20 bill from a neighbor. He
could have hidden it, or spent it subtly, but he brought it in, showed it to
me and said "Look what I found."

"Where?"

"In the road."

But when he was telling the story, he didn't act or sound like he would have
if he had found twenty dollars in the road. He sounded calm, but kind of
stunned, like he had surprised himself disturbingly. (Hard to describe it--I
could say it the way he said it, but for one thing--he didn't look at me, he
kept looking at the bill when he was telling me; it just was wrong.)

I could have said "Why are you acting so weird?" but I didn't. And I wasn't
sure. I said sometimes people do lose money, and my sister finds money all
the time, always has. I told him if nobody claimed it in a day or two he
could keep it.

The neighbor called after a few hours and I said yes, Kirby did have a $20
bill. One had disappeared from her dresser. So I talked to Kirby about it
really gently, and he admitted he had picked it up and hadn't known how to
put it back, or what to do. So we went back over, and she was very cool
about it, and so was Kirby.

That might have been the end of it, but when he was nine and had only been at
his dojo for a few months, the sensei called me and said some money was
missing from the dressing and did I think possibly Kirby had taken it. I
said I would love to say "no," but there was this one prior incident.

(And that all really taught Kirby the power of one serious failure to affect
people's future trust.)

But the teacher asked me not to mention it to Kirby, that they would look
further and that he would ask him himself, and that if it turned out Kirby
did have it, they wouldn't put him out of the school or anything at all, but
would speak with him about honor and all that. That was fine with me. I
felt good having been honest and saying "maybe."

So I waited a rough whole day, kind of worried. And I had looked subtly in
Kirby's stuff and there was no money, and he acted absolutely calmly normal.

The next day the teacher called and said the money had been found!!

I talked to Kirby about it in a really neutral way, and he was relieved not
to have been in a position to have to defend himself, but he did understand
why I would say "maybe." It was great.

When I give my kids lunch money they bring back the change. They're very
sweet about money, and because we trust them, we're more generous with it.
If I don't have change, I can give Marty a $20 and tell him what he can use
and what he can't, and I have always gotten change (and more than I expected,
often).

Sandra

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In a message dated 4/9/01 10:28:26 AM, unschooling@... writes:

<< Yikes! I have never had to deal with lying in such an instance, esp.
combined with other behaviors, such as destruction of property. >>

When he's cutting, can you just hand him something he CAN cut up (and so
forth)? He might discover that he's wanting to be destructive, and not know
why. Or maybe he was just dying to cut something up. Pillows from garage
sales would work, maybe.

With toddlers, I remember lots of times distraction worked--similar
activity, safer supplies.

Sandra

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In a message dated 4/9/01 8:16:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
vouget@... writes:

<< *Well, last night, FE, I caught him cutting up the couch.
Cutting big chunks out of the fabric. >>

I have read some good advice about the lying and especially agree with
the idea that little children lie because they wish it to be true.
I wanted to give you a suggestion about cutting. We went through this
phase (cut in almost in half a handmade wallhanging, cut up my pajama
sleeve...). A friend of mine suggested this. Give him his very own cutting
box. Put all kinds of things in it from fabric to sponges, old jeans, carpet,
chunk of glycerin soap, cardboard, old magazines. He is 6 now and just
pulled it out the other day when he felt like cutting up some stuff. It gave
him control and direction to have this cutting box. You can suggest when
he looks frustrated if he would like to go get his cutting box. Remind him
that he it is there and available. About a year and a half after he cut
my pajama top, I was wearing it (it was still usable, just not pretty lol)
and he said to me in the most sincere voice, mom I am really sorry I cut
up your pajamas. I know he didn't mean to do it. My boy just has needs
to do, try, experience or know that are stronger than his need to please
me. He has even told me that he doesn't know why he does the things
he does (hitting sibling or throwing somehting or breaking something)
and I believe him. He gets frustrated and lashes out without thinking. I
do the same thing and I am 30 years older than him and am STILL
working on this trait!!
Kathy

[email protected]

<<My eldest was about 5-6yrs (long time ago - cant remeber exact age)
when he would lie. I would be stood next to him and he would do
something, lets say pull the cats tail, I would say "dont pull the
cats tail" and he would look me in the eye and say "I didn't"!! He
was so convincing that he almost had me believing him.......This son
is the most honest truthfull person I know.

Marianne>>

LOL, this sounds like my dd at age 3, she was so convincing. She told me
several years later about some lies she told me and I had no idea. She
would rather eat a slug than lie to me now.

Kris
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[email protected]

<< A friend of mine suggested this. Give him his very own cutting
box. Put all kinds of things in it from fabric to sponges, old jeans,
carpet,
chunk of glycerin soap, cardboard, old magazines.>>

What a great idea! I read stuff like this and have a real V-8 moment.
My little guy LOVES to cut and tries so hard to stick with the "legal"
paper. He's gonna think he's landed in heaven!

Kris
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Elizabeth Hill

> I would say "dont pull the
>cats tail" and he would look me in the eye and say "I didn't"!! He
>was so convincing that he almost had me believing him.......This son
>is the most honest truthfull person I know.

Good to hear that.

Maybe wishful lying could be minimized in this age group by saying "Next
time, remember don't pull the cat's tail. It hurts the cat." That gives
the child the chance to say "I won't" instead of "I didn't".

Betsy

[email protected]

>A friend of mine suggested this. Give him his very own cutting
> box. Put all kinds of things in it from fabric to sponges, old
jeans,
> carpet,
> chunk of glycerin soap, cardboard, old magazines>
*Thank you for this great idea! He is so excited about it -
going around the house, "Can I have this? How "bout that?" We're
going to need a bigger box!! :-)

Thanks for all the input. It really helps me understand my behavior
growing up. And that makes it easier to deal with my kids when they
act the same way.

Thanks again.

Melanie in Indiana
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In a message dated 4/10/01 1:11:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
vouget@... writes:

<< Thank you for this great idea! He is so excited about it -
going around the house, "Can I have this? How "bout that?" We're
going to need a bigger box!! :-)
>>
Oh thats great, love the enthusiasm : )

Kathy