math questions...
R Meyers
Hi list, I don't normally post much as
I'm usually just too busy but I do love reading all the great posts and
responses. Anywhoo, I have a few questions that I'm hoping you all might
be able to help me with.
I have an 8yo and 6yo twins.........we
started unschooling about 4 months ago after 2 years of trying to do "school"
although it was still a very relaxed atmosphere. My kids still ask me
every day when we are going to "do school" which I have to chuckle about and
explain again how we are "doing school" every day. My 8yo is behind in
math and I'm not worried about it persay, but he certainly is and wants to learn
his add/sub and multiplication facts better and quicker. I have tried a
lot of math programs out there over the years............Horizons, MMM, Miquon,
others I can't even remember the names of but I was never happy with them.
I would love some suggestions on how to help him learn these facts
better......I'm looking at Math U See and Miquon for my younger ones
maybe. Would love some input on what you think of these or more
importantly some other ways to help........I have flash cards, math games,
Family Math, manipulatives....I guess I'm just having trouble implementing them
so they end up just sitting on the shelf. That is about it but thank you
in advance for any help you can give me........
Rachel
[email protected]
In a message dated 04/06/2001 2:58:41 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
livinglighthouse@... writes:
Rachel
Hmmm . . . wish I was there in your living room with the 8 yo. He wants to
have the basic math facts memorized better -- faster? Math Blaster CDs are a
good series of CD-Rom games that offer a lot of drill/practice. Or does he
maybe need to use them in real-life activities -- like building something or
cooking or what would he enjoy that would use a few of these math facts?? Or
does he maybe need to try the next level up of some fun-type game that uses
geometry (Math Blaster Geometry for example) or play a CD game called Math in
the Real World (a rock band travels around and has to use math to get through
their trip -- figuring money for meals or gas, etc.). Or maybe move away
from the drill type stuff and get into more fun games like Logical Journey of
the Zoombinis or Rollercoaster Tycoon (build your own theme park).
Or not.
Wish I was there. I'm curious to see what he thinks the situation is. Is he
"bad at math" or "good at math" -- which do you think he would say? Does he
enjoy the ideas but hasn't memorized the facts? Or does he not get the
concepts? Or something else? Does he understand that memorization of the
arithmetic facts is the least interesting part of the mathematics -- a tool
to explore other ideas -- like statistics or logic or sciences or science
experiments or baseball stats -- that they are just there to help him do
whatever he wants to?
Real-life unschooling experiences to reinforce what he does know or help the
random facts "stick" -- cook something and measure and you will understand
better what fractions are -- or help Dad set some tile -- area makes sense.
Or not -- my son is not the touchy-feely math type -- explain it to him,
write it down on a piece of paper. When he needs to use an idea, he will --
but not one second before!
Money is a good way to practice real-life math too -- simple multiplication
facts, etc.
Wish I was there. I think this is interesting.
Nance
livinglighthouse@... writes:
My 8yo is behind in math and I'm not worried about it persay, but he
certainly is and wants to learn his add/sub and multiplication facts better
and quicker. I have tried a lot of math programs out there over the
years............Horizons, MMM, Miquon, others I can't even remember the
names of but I was never happy with them. I would love some suggestions on
how to help him learn these facts better......I'm looking at Math U See and
Miquon for my younger ones maybe. Would love some input on what you think
of these or more importantly some other ways to help........I have flash
cards, math games, Family Math, manipulatives....I guess I'm just having
trouble implementing them so they end up just sitting on the shelf. That
is about it but thank you in advance for any help you can give me........
Rachel
Hmmm . . . wish I was there in your living room with the 8 yo. He wants to
have the basic math facts memorized better -- faster? Math Blaster CDs are a
good series of CD-Rom games that offer a lot of drill/practice. Or does he
maybe need to use them in real-life activities -- like building something or
cooking or what would he enjoy that would use a few of these math facts?? Or
does he maybe need to try the next level up of some fun-type game that uses
geometry (Math Blaster Geometry for example) or play a CD game called Math in
the Real World (a rock band travels around and has to use math to get through
their trip -- figuring money for meals or gas, etc.). Or maybe move away
from the drill type stuff and get into more fun games like Logical Journey of
the Zoombinis or Rollercoaster Tycoon (build your own theme park).
Or not.
Wish I was there. I'm curious to see what he thinks the situation is. Is he
"bad at math" or "good at math" -- which do you think he would say? Does he
enjoy the ideas but hasn't memorized the facts? Or does he not get the
concepts? Or something else? Does he understand that memorization of the
arithmetic facts is the least interesting part of the mathematics -- a tool
to explore other ideas -- like statistics or logic or sciences or science
experiments or baseball stats -- that they are just there to help him do
whatever he wants to?
Real-life unschooling experiences to reinforce what he does know or help the
random facts "stick" -- cook something and measure and you will understand
better what fractions are -- or help Dad set some tile -- area makes sense.
Or not -- my son is not the touchy-feely math type -- explain it to him,
write it down on a piece of paper. When he needs to use an idea, he will --
but not one second before!
Money is a good way to practice real-life math too -- simple multiplication
facts, etc.
Wish I was there. I think this is interesting.
Nance
R Meyers
Math Blaster CDs are a good series of CD-Rom games that offer a lot of drill/practice. Or does he
maybe need to use them in real-life activities -- like building something or
cooking or what would he enjoy that would use a few of these math facts??
I think that real life activities tend
to make more sense to him.......he lives for Legos so builds constantly but I
don't see any math skills used during that time. We do cook and such and
try to use them as examples, but it still seems like he needs something
more. We have lots of games and CD's so perhaps more time spent at that
would help.
Or
does he maybe need to try the next level up of some fun-type game that uses
geometry (Math Blaster Geometry for example) or play a CD game called Math in
the Real World (a rock band travels around and has to use math to get through
their trip -- figuring money for meals or gas, etc.). Or maybe move away
from the drill type stuff and get into more fun games like Logical Journey of
the Zoombinis or Rollercoaster Tycoon (build your own theme park).
does he maybe need to try the next level up of some fun-type game that uses
geometry (Math Blaster Geometry for example) or play a CD game called Math in
the Real World (a rock band travels around and has to use math to get through
their trip -- figuring money for meals or gas, etc.). Or maybe move away
from the drill type stuff and get into more fun games like Logical Journey of
the Zoombinis or Rollercoaster Tycoon (build your own theme park).
I just ordered the Zoombini game, I
think he would like that one!
Or not.
Wish I was there. I'm curious to see what he thinks the situation is. Is he
"bad at math" or "good at math" -- which do you think he would say?
Or not.
Wish I was there. I'm curious to see what he thinks the situation is. Is he
"bad at math" or "good at math" -- which do you think he would say?
Well I asked him, wasn't terribly
surprised by his answer........was complicated as ever (he is sooo
precocious)....here is his response........." I'm good at subtracting on
the computer, but not on paper. I do good at adding but only the small
numbers. I suck at multiplication. (at which point I pointed out that
we don't use that word). So....I think he has a healthy attitude about it
but does desire more skills.
Does he enjoy the ideas but hasn't memorized
the facts?
I think that would sum it up........he
does much matter on "real life" problems then on paper.....he has never done
math with manipulatives or concretely.......he does it in his head, no matter
how hard the problem, he refuses to try to work it out with objects. That
is difficult for me because I can't see where he is going with his deduction
process or if he gets it wrong I don't know where he is erring......very
frustrating for me.
Or does he not get the concepts?
I think he gets the concepts
fine.......we haven't worked on multiplication nearly as much as "3rd
grade" dictates so he is lacking there but who cares........I want him to
understand the concepts more than the memorization part of it but I know too
that learning the "tables" would help him do it faster and easier in his
head.
Or something else? Does he understand
that memorization of the
arithmetic facts is the least interesting part of the mathematics -- a tool
to explore other ideas -- like statistics or logic or sciences or science
experiments or baseball stats -- that they are just there to help him do
whatever he wants to?
arithmetic facts is the least interesting part of the mathematics -- a tool
to explore other ideas -- like statistics or logic or sciences or science
experiments or baseball stats -- that they are just there to help him do
whatever he wants to?
I don't think intellectually he is at a
point to care one way or another......he gets frustrated not knowing the answers
to questions because he is just guessing a lot of the time so he sees
memorization as a way to eliminate that frustration.
I appreciate your show of interest in
the underlying factors here, I look forward to getting more of your input.
Thank you......
Rachel
Real-life unschooling experiences to reinforce what he does know or help the
random facts "stick" -- cook something and measure and you will understand
better what fractions are -- or help Dad set some tile -- area makes sense.
Or not -- my son is not the touchy-feely math type -- explain it to him,
write it down on a piece of paper. When he needs to use an idea, he will --
but not one second before!
[email protected]
In a message dated 04/06/2001 4:50:27 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
livinglighthouse@... writes:
livinglighthouse@... writes:
......he gets frustrated not knowing the answers to questions because he is
just guessing a lot of the time so he sees memorization as a way to
eliminate that frustration.
I appreciate your show of interest in the underlying factors here, I look
forward to getting more of your input. Thank you......
Rachel
Well, my interest is real. We enjoy math around here (today's highlight was
a discussion that came from my son's questions about how to run a retail
store -- a store that sells TVs -- and all the costs you might have and what
your profit would be -- this talk would not have been possible without math
-- it's a good tool!) and it is interesting and frustrating to me to see a
bright boy like your son getting stuck on not liking it.
I have been thinking about your note and, please don't take offense, but I
don't think this is so much his problem.
I am thinking that your son learns differently from you. This makes it hard
for you to accept that he is actually learning (enough) when doing things
like Legos or doing math in his head. You don't see any "proof" -- or not
as much as you might be expecting.
This is just my guess from your comments. And others will probably pipe up
with descriptions of different types of learners -- visual/spatial vs. the
other kind -- I can never keep it all straight.
But it seems like that is part of it to me.
Background info: I have two children -- a 7 1/2 yo boy and a 6 yo girl. The
boy -- I get him -- I see how he thinks -- he hates to write things down --
he does as much as he can in his head -- he likes a clear, straight-forward,
cut to the chase answer, he is meticulous, detailed, perfectionist -- he is
impatient with slowness of any kind (but very kind on a personal level so
that's sort of misleading) -- but he won't tolerate any sort of repetition.
The girl -- oh my goodness -- where did this child come from! We do OK I
guess -- she is flourishing -- but I am barely able to see how she does what
she does. She cannot read a story, for instance, without many stops along
the way to discuss what should have happened, what will happen, etc. Given a
box full of various craft supplies she will create something in 10 minutes
that I could not make in a week and wouldn't have thought of anyway. She has
an interest in fiction -- son will barely touch the stuff. He eats math up
and we are really in a bored-with-it-all but not-quite-ready-for-Algebra-yet
stage. She is a beginning reader. He was reading everything at 4 1/2. She
likes math but would much prefer to use blocks and do mazes and puzzles than
look at a book of any kind. Etc. Just today I was telling my Mom that it is
as if they have a meeting and decide to react to any given situation in
exactly opposite ways!
Anyway, I get him. Most of the time, I have no idea where she is coming
from. I am really winging it with her!
So, after all that . . . hmmm. Maybe your son needs to de-emphasize to
himself how important all this memorizing is. If he gets the concepts, and
he has a calculator, and he just does things for the next few years, these
facts will be repeated enough times to actually be a part of his memory
without having to sit down and repeat them a million times. Which isn't
going to work too well anyway, imo.
Which reminds me -- what is it that he gets frustrated doing -- games or
worksheets or what?
Also, one thing we did, if you take a big sheet of the mult tables, and mark
out the ones he already knows (the 0s, 1s, 2s, 3s, 5s, 10s) and then
eliminate all the repeats (the good old commutative property) he may be
suprised to see how much he already knows and how little there is left to
memorize.
Then, some of the CDs, when set to the right level, will use the higher-end
problems, and that might be enough repetition to get thru.
Not writing stuff down -- this is my son to a T. (Of course, daughter loves
to write -- was just this AM writing down a "secret note" about her brother
-- write crayon on black paper -- very spooky!! ooooooo). So, he doesn't
write a lot. And the world keeps turning.
He recently had to do a short essay, for instance, for a Tae Kwon Do test.
He enjoyed the thinking part and came up with some good ideas but dictated
what to type to me. If I had insisted that he had to write it by hand, no
way. We told the TKD teacher this was what we were doing.
Sorry to be so rambling . .
Nance
[email protected]
I wrote a newsletter about unschooling math.
Here is the opening blurb ... you can find the rest of it here:
http://www.homeschool-tips.com/RscNLV.asp?year=2001&month=2&day=2
There are *zillions* of math resource ideas! :o)
**Math. One of the two subjects that will put fear into even the most veteran
homeschooler. (Science, which we will cover next month, is the other.) And
why shouldn`t it? "What do you do for math and science?" is the second
question (right behind "How do they socialize?") people ask when they find
out you homeschool. Is teaching math that hard? Is it something we should
fear? Do we have to be an engineer, or an engineering/math/physics professor
to teach math to our children?
No! But... I have picked the brain of someone who happens to be all of those
... and so much more! Her name is JoAnn, and I think if you ask her, she will
tell you the job title she is most proud of is Homeschooling Mom to Katie.**
Krista
Homeschool-Tips Guru
http://www.homeschool-tips.com
Get tips, links and answers to questions about
Homeschooling! Sign up for the FREE tips newsletter!
Subscribe to Themestream articles by Krista Schmidt
Here is the opening blurb ... you can find the rest of it here:
http://www.homeschool-tips.com/RscNLV.asp?year=2001&month=2&day=2
There are *zillions* of math resource ideas! :o)
**Math. One of the two subjects that will put fear into even the most veteran
homeschooler. (Science, which we will cover next month, is the other.) And
why shouldn`t it? "What do you do for math and science?" is the second
question (right behind "How do they socialize?") people ask when they find
out you homeschool. Is teaching math that hard? Is it something we should
fear? Do we have to be an engineer, or an engineering/math/physics professor
to teach math to our children?
No! But... I have picked the brain of someone who happens to be all of those
... and so much more! Her name is JoAnn, and I think if you ask her, she will
tell you the job title she is most proud of is Homeschooling Mom to Katie.**
Krista
Homeschool-Tips Guru
http://www.homeschool-tips.com
Get tips, links and answers to questions about
Homeschooling! Sign up for the FREE tips newsletter!
Subscribe to Themestream articles by Krista Schmidt
R Meyers
I think you make some excellent points
Nance. I think trying to de-emphasize the importance of memorizing the
facts might help. He gets frustrated when trying to figure out a problem
in his head and he gets the wrong answer so I'm not sure I can do much about
that. Someone mentioned having a chart with the facts up on the wall while
he does "math" or works on his computer games so he can refer to it for speed in
the game and eventually after seeing it over and over he'll memorize them
without even thinking about it........see any merit in that philosophy???
I think some of the problem is definitely me......I have a hard time letting go
of the math.......everything else is fine, but math I seem to keep feeling the
need to push....or create experiences so maybe with me letting go a bit and him
lightning up a bit on himself it will work itself out.
I do have another concern that you
might have some input on, it seems that most unschoolers I hear from about math
and such have young kids and seem to have the "when they need it, they'll learn
it" philosophy down pat........but I'm curious about people on the other side,
with older kids if that is truly what happens or not. I sure would love to
hear from people with older kids, looking back that let them learn math on their
own and see how they approached it and if the kids did indeed learn it as they
needed it.
Thanks again.......
Rachel
Vaughnde Edwards
Nancy,
You aren't rambling. This is very interesting to me. I'm
learning what makes Naomi tick. I mean, she has been in school up until this
year (4th grade) and I never really took the time to learn what she likes to do
and doesn't. I guess this mom got a crash course in the last 7 weeks! She hates
repitition, likes to write but will write whenever she wants...doesn't care for
cursive much...knows how to do it, but doesnt like being 'forced' to do it every
day on every single subject (that was one of her pet peeves in ps), loves music
and is very musical, loves to dance to music, is very expressive physically.
Will hug when she wants to and will sometimes give me one if I ask for
one...loves math, but not the repitition. She already knows how to use a cash
register, can figure in her mind how much change to give back (thanks to friends
that taught her how to do it in a coffee shop), doesn't like me trying to
explain things to her (her favorite phrase lately is I'm not stupid!...which I
despair of her ever to stop saying), loves watching disney especially the
morning runs where they do the little kidlet shows with different learning stuff
like in the box and is developing rapidly...very conscious of her body changes,
very private and will not allow me anywhere near when getting dressed...but
still likes to have me sit with her in the bathroom when taking a bath and still
WONT run her own bath water. She is a contradiction of child and pre-teen and it
is scary at times and surprising at others. I guess with this one, since I
didn't grow up with her sister (summer visits only) I'm learning what it means
to be a child and pre-teen all at once.
Jessica
-----Original Message-----In a message dated 04/06/2001 4:50:27 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
From: marbleface@... <marbleface@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, April 06, 2001 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] math questions...
livinglighthouse@... writes:
......he gets frustrated not knowing the answers to questions because he is
just guessing a lot of the time so he sees memorization as a way to
eliminate that frustration.
I appreciate your show of interest in the underlying factors here, I look
forward to getting more of your input. Thank you......
Rachel
Well, my interest is real. We enjoy math around here (today's highlight was
a discussion that came from my son's questions about how to run a retail
store -- a store that sells TVs -- and all the costs you might have and what
your profit would be -- this talk would not have been possible without math
-- it's a good tool!) and it is interesting and frustrating to me to see a
bright boy like your son getting stuck on not liking it.
I have been thinking about your note and, please don't take offense, but I
don't think this is so much his problem.
I am thinking that your son learns differently from you. This makes it hard
for you to accept that he is actually learning (enough) when doing things
like Legos or doing math in his head. You don't see any "proof" -- or not
as much as you might be expecting.
This is just my guess from your comments. And others will probably pipe up
with descriptions of different types of learners -- visual/spatial vs. the
other kind -- I can never keep it all straight.
But it seems like that is part of it to me.
Background info: I have two children -- a 7 1/2 yo boy and a 6 yo girl. The
boy -- I get him -- I see how he thinks -- he hates to write things down --
he does as much as he can in his head -- he likes a clear, straight-forward,
cut to the chase answer, he is meticulous, detailed, perfectionist -- he is
impatient with slowness of any kind (but very kind on a personal level so
that's sort of misleading) -- but he won't tolerate any sort of repetition.
The girl -- oh my goodness -- where did this child come from! We do OK I
guess -- she is flourishing -- but I am barely able to see how she does what
she does. She cannot read a story, for instance, without many stops along
the way to discuss what should have happened, what will happen, etc. Given a
box full of various craft supplies she will create something in 10 minutes
that I could not make in a week and wouldn't have thought of anyway. She has
an interest in fiction -- son will barely touch the stuff. He eats math up
and we are really in a bored-with-it-all but not-quite-ready-for-Algebra-yet
stage. She is a beginning reader. He was reading everything at 4 1/2. She
likes math but would much prefer to use blocks and do mazes and puzzles than
look at a book of any kind. Etc. Just today I was telling my Mom that it is
as if they have a meeting and decide to react to any given situation in
exactly opposite ways!
Anyway, I get him. Most of the time, I have no idea where she is coming
from. I am really winging it with her!
So, after all that . . . hmmm. Maybe your son needs to de-emphasize to
himself how important all this memorizing is. If he gets the concepts, and
he has a calculator, and he just does things for the next few years, these
facts will be repeated enough times to actually be a part of his memory
without having to sit down and repeat them a million times. Which isn't
going to work too well anyway, imo.
Which reminds me -- what is it that he gets frustrated doing -- games or
worksheets or what?
Also, one thing we did, if you take a big sheet of the mult tables, and mark
out the ones he already knows (the 0s, 1s, 2s, 3s, 5s, 10s) and then
eliminate all the repeats (the good old commutative property) he may be
suprised to see how much he already knows and how little there is left to
memorize.
Then, some of the CDs, when set to the right level, will use the higher-end
problems, and that might be enough repetition to get thru.
Not writing stuff down -- this is my son to a T. (Of course, daughter loves
to write -- was just this AM writing down a "secret note" about her brother
-- write crayon on black paper -- very spooky!! ooooooo). So, he doesn't
write a lot. And the world keeps turning.
He recently had to do a short essay, for instance, for a Tae Kwon Do test.
He enjoyed the thinking part and came up with some good ideas but dictated
what to type to me. If I had insisted that he had to write it by hand, no
way. We told the TKD teacher this was what we were doing.
Sorry to be so rambling . .
Nance
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In a message dated 04/07/2001 4:28:46 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
stampinbookworm@... writes:
stampinbookworm@... writes:
Nancy,
You aren't rambling. This is very interesting to me. I'm learning what
makes Naomi tick.
Thanks for being reassuring! As I said earlier today somewhere else, I will
have this all figured out at just about the same time they are grown! :)
Nance
[email protected]
I think that is a great idea for anyone who WANTS to work on math facts.
Decades ago, I worked at a Dairy Queen. We didn't have cash registers,
just a cash drawer and a pad of paper. For YEARS after I quit working
there I remembered the price of most of the menu items, just from using
those prices over and over. They also taught us to make change by
counting UP from the order total.
I do have a computer game that someone gave me with your choice of horse
or car race. The faster you answer your arithmatic facts, the faster
your car or horse goes. It's called quarter mile math. My dd rarely
plays it, but I think it could be useful for a kid who wanted to practice
in order to get faster.
Mary Ellen
<snip>Someone mentioned having a chart with the facts up on the wall
while he does "math" or works on his computer games so he can refer to it
for speed in the game and eventually after seeing it over and over he'll
memorize them without even thinking about it........see any merit in that
philosophy???
Decades ago, I worked at a Dairy Queen. We didn't have cash registers,
just a cash drawer and a pad of paper. For YEARS after I quit working
there I remembered the price of most of the menu items, just from using
those prices over and over. They also taught us to make change by
counting UP from the order total.
I do have a computer game that someone gave me with your choice of horse
or car race. The faster you answer your arithmatic facts, the faster
your car or horse goes. It's called quarter mile math. My dd rarely
plays it, but I think it could be useful for a kid who wanted to practice
in order to get faster.
Mary Ellen
<snip>Someone mentioned having a chart with the facts up on the wall
while he does "math" or works on his computer games so he can refer to it
for speed in the game and eventually after seeing it over and over he'll
memorize them without even thinking about it........see any merit in that
philosophy???