Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianism
Collette Mattingly
Sandra, why must you discourage people from
caring?
----- Original Message -----From: SandraDodd@...Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 3:05 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianism
In a message dated 4/4/01 10:59:17 AM, diamondair@... writes:
<< Yeah, instead we have no clean water to drink (of course, rich folks can
buy
expensive filters or bottled water), water on our beaches that is too toxic
to swim in, >>
There are places that were polluted in the 70's that aren't now.
There is LOTS of clean water--maybe not where you live.
Some places have too many people in one place, but people know when they move
there that the place is crowded. (Those who were born there get crowded too,
I know...)
Are you saying ALL beaches are unuseable?
<<and rolling power blackouts.>>
It's financial restrictions--politics--doing that in some cases.
There's a range of things between sticking your head in the sand and
proclaiming loudly at all times that the sky has already fallen.
Sandra
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DiamondAir
> From: SandraDodd@...food
> If you read some of
> the most negative stuff from the 60's and 70's, you will know that ALL
> was going to run out, there would be NO water, NO electrical power, andthe
> total expectation that people would be stealing each others' stored foodand
> gasoline at gunpoint is well documented in dozens of movies from the 70'sand
> 80's.Yeah, instead we have no clean water to drink (of course, rich folks can buy
>
> They were wrong.
expensive filters or bottled water), water on our beaches that is too toxic
to swim in, food that is genetically modified and pesticided to hell and
back, and rolling power blackouts. Hmmm, we're not quite there yet, but give
us a couple more decades :-). Oops, is it time to put my head back in the
sand yet?
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "My pants are outgrowing me"
and Asa (10/5/99) "Potty pee! Potty pee! Potty pee!"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/4/01 10:59:17 AM, diamondair@... writes:
<< Yeah, instead we have no clean water to drink (of course, rich folks can
buy
expensive filters or bottled water), water on our beaches that is too toxic
to swim in, >>
There are places that were polluted in the 70's that aren't now.
There is LOTS of clean water--maybe not where you live.
Some places have too many people in one place, but people know when they move
there that the place is crowded. (Those who were born there get crowded too,
I know...)
Are you saying ALL beaches are unuseable?
<<and rolling power blackouts.>>
It's financial restrictions--politics--doing that in some cases.
There's a range of things between sticking your head in the sand and
proclaiming loudly at all times that the sky has already fallen.
Sandra
<< Yeah, instead we have no clean water to drink (of course, rich folks can
buy
expensive filters or bottled water), water on our beaches that is too toxic
to swim in, >>
There are places that were polluted in the 70's that aren't now.
There is LOTS of clean water--maybe not where you live.
Some places have too many people in one place, but people know when they move
there that the place is crowded. (Those who were born there get crowded too,
I know...)
Are you saying ALL beaches are unuseable?
<<and rolling power blackouts.>>
It's financial restrictions--politics--doing that in some cases.
There's a range of things between sticking your head in the sand and
proclaiming loudly at all times that the sky has already fallen.
Sandra
[email protected]
On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:26:30 -0700
"DiamondAir" <diamondair@...> wrote:
and Chicago have fine water. LA doesn't, but LA's lucky to have any water.
_Silent Spring_ days. And there's all this organically grown food you can buy
now!
As for gene modification... rant time.
The question of whether GMOs are safe is, in a sense, meaningless. It depends
on what the modification _is_. Obviously if you put belladonna poison genes
into a potato the potato isn't going to be safe! Of course, the companies
don't do anything that stupid. Is it possible that some other modifications
might have odd side effects, or limit food value, since we don't know
everything about how nutrients are absorbed? Yes.
On the other hand, the belief some people have that genetically modified food
is inherently bad is simply crap science. Our "natural" food, animal and
vegetable, is quite removed from its wild form, and cells don't care where
their genes come from.
And when we're contemplating the possible riskiness of GM food, consider the
other risks in life. Any obvious poisons, and hopefully allergens, aren't
going to be put into the food, so the most likely drawback is a bit of extra
carcinogenicity, on top of the carcinogens already in the food naturally, on
top of the pesticides, on top of the for-most-Americans much bigger risks of
eating too much saturated fat and sugar, and not enough fruit and vegetables,
and not getting enough exercise.
Not that cancer is good. But I'm saying _if something goes wrong_ the most
likely risk is a slightly increased chance of cancer. This is something you
worry about after changing your diet and stopping smoking and starting
exercising, because heart disease is a lot more likely to kill you than
cancer.
Now, I admit that in the era of mad cow disease prions there are other things
to worry about, and sometimes I feel the companies are a bit too sanguine
about our food supply. But I don't like seeing unscientific fear of genetic
engineering or cloning, either.
End rant.
systematic shortage of power and overconsumption of energy. In fact
California is 47th in power usage, partly because of mild climate but also
because of aggressive conservation measures -- starting from the 1970s. And
the lack of power is not from some global shortage but because we haven't
built any plants in a decade. Because we're so democratic (as in popular
input into everything) and environmentalist (trying to get that clean air and
water back, after the 1970s) that no one's been able to build one. And
deregulation wasn't designed very well, and there's evidence of power
suppliers trying to cut supply and raise prices.
Yes, it's a big problem here, but seeing it as a sign of oncoming doom is
unsupportable. This is a specifically political local fuckup.
-xx- Damien X-)
"DiamondAir" <diamondair@...> wrote:
> Yeah, instead we have no clean water to drink (of course, rich folks can buyWho's 'we', and is the water worse than it was in the 1970s? San Francisco
and Chicago have fine water. LA doesn't, but LA's lucky to have any water.
> expensive filters or bottled water), water on our beaches that is too toxicWorse than the 1960s and 1970s? I'm sure the pesticides aren't worse than
> to swim in, food that is genetically modified and pesticided to hell and
_Silent Spring_ days. And there's all this organically grown food you can buy
now!
As for gene modification... rant time.
The question of whether GMOs are safe is, in a sense, meaningless. It depends
on what the modification _is_. Obviously if you put belladonna poison genes
into a potato the potato isn't going to be safe! Of course, the companies
don't do anything that stupid. Is it possible that some other modifications
might have odd side effects, or limit food value, since we don't know
everything about how nutrients are absorbed? Yes.
On the other hand, the belief some people have that genetically modified food
is inherently bad is simply crap science. Our "natural" food, animal and
vegetable, is quite removed from its wild form, and cells don't care where
their genes come from.
And when we're contemplating the possible riskiness of GM food, consider the
other risks in life. Any obvious poisons, and hopefully allergens, aren't
going to be put into the food, so the most likely drawback is a bit of extra
carcinogenicity, on top of the carcinogens already in the food naturally, on
top of the pesticides, on top of the for-most-Americans much bigger risks of
eating too much saturated fat and sugar, and not enough fruit and vegetables,
and not getting enough exercise.
Not that cancer is good. But I'm saying _if something goes wrong_ the most
likely risk is a slightly increased chance of cancer. This is something you
worry about after changing your diet and stopping smoking and starting
exercising, because heart disease is a lot more likely to kill you than
cancer.
Now, I admit that in the era of mad cow disease prions there are other things
to worry about, and sometimes I feel the companies are a bit too sanguine
about our food supply. But I don't like seeing unscientific fear of genetic
engineering or cloning, either.
End rant.
> back, and rolling power blackouts. Hmmm, we're not quite there yet, but giveThe rolling blackouts would be more relevant if they were related to a
systematic shortage of power and overconsumption of energy. In fact
California is 47th in power usage, partly because of mild climate but also
because of aggressive conservation measures -- starting from the 1970s. And
the lack of power is not from some global shortage but because we haven't
built any plants in a decade. Because we're so democratic (as in popular
input into everything) and environmentalist (trying to get that clean air and
water back, after the 1970s) that no one's been able to build one. And
deregulation wasn't designed very well, and there's evidence of power
suppliers trying to cut supply and raise prices.
Yes, it's a big problem here, but seeing it as a sign of oncoming doom is
unsupportable. This is a specifically political local fuckup.
-xx- Damien X-)
[email protected]
On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 05:47:02 -0400
"Collette Mattingly" <collettemattingly@...> wrote:
them from saying the sky has fallen when it hasn't. It's fine to warn about
clouds on the horizon, but don't lose sight of the rainbow you're standing on.
-xx- Damien X-)
"Collette Mattingly" <collettemattingly@...> wrote:
> Sandra, why must you discourage people from caring?I saw her as encouraging people to get their facts right, and discouraging
them from saying the sky has fallen when it hasn't. It's fine to warn about
clouds on the horizon, but don't lose sight of the rainbow you're standing on.
-xx- Damien X-)
Collette Mattingly
I didn't get the impression that anyone had lost
sight of the rainbow, just didn't sugar coat the truth. Besides, maybe
it's Sandra that doesn't have her facts right.
----- Original Message -----From: phoenix@...Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:54 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianismOn Wed, 4 Apr 2001 05:47:02 -0400
"Collette Mattingly" <collettemattingly@...> wrote:
> Sandra, why must you discourage people from caring?
I saw her as encouraging people to get their facts right, and discouraging
them from saying the sky has fallen when it hasn't. It's fine to warn about
clouds on the horizon, but don't lose sight of the rainbow you're standing on.
-xx- Damien X-)
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Collette Mattingly
>and pesticided to hell
and
harmful to us has been banned.
Patti, This is simply not true. If you have these chemicals in your home, please please read the containers for your families sake. Pesticides and the like kill. Collette
>back,Not quite as bad as you make it to be. Most stuff that was found to be
harmful to us has been banned.
Patti, This is simply not true. If you have these chemicals in your home, please please read the containers for your families sake. Pesticides and the like kill. Collette
----- Original Message -----From: PattiSent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 7:29 AMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianismOne at a time...
At 12:26 PM 4/4/01, you wrote:
>Yeah, instead we have no clean water to drink (of course, rich folks can buy
>expensive filters or bottled water),
My city is in the top ten for clean drinking water and has been for the
past couple years.
>water on our beaches that is too toxic
>to swim in,
Certainly not here! Our water is pretty clean to swim/surf in.
>food that is genetically modified
I guess if I said to irradiate our meat you'd be against that? I think we
should.
>and pesticided to hell and
>back,
Not quite as bad as you make it to be. Most stuff that was found to be
harmful to us has been banned.
>and rolling power blackouts.
This is a California problem. <severe political incorrectness coming> I
would like to see us use more nuclear power, as well as develop fusion
plants. With as much as the population is growing we need to look into
that instead of trying to find more oil. Nuclear power is safe, especially
in this country where we have the highest standards anywhere in the
world. We have the cleanest factories, the cleanest power plants, but yet
other countries 'blame us' for not doing enough when they spew more in one
month that we do in ten years. We have the highest protection for the
environment, while other countries destroy theirs, tearing it down and
polluting it still while blaming us.
>Hmmm, we're not quite there yet, but give
>us a couple more decades :-). Oops, is it time to put my head back in the
>sand yet?
Yes. Better yet, go to a foreign country like Italy. Don't visit the
'touristy' part, visit the real part where the people live. I can
guarantee you when you come back you will never gripe and complain about
the US again.
> Blue Skies!
> -Robin-
Patti
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Collette Mattingly
I apologize if people think I was pointing
fingers. I felt I was simply raising questions as to what humans as a
whole do to this earth. It is up to the individual, if they choose to read
my posts, to decide if any of what I say is valid for them or applies to their
life. I don't think anyone here needs protecting from what I or anyone
else has to say. Collette
----- Original Message -----From: SandraDodd@...Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 9:39 AMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianism-=-Sandra, why must you discourage people from caring?-=-
"Caring" and "doomsaying" (with the inherent insult to everyone else in range
for having destroyed the earth) aren't the same thing.
Sandra
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Collette Mattingly
It is true anyone can find evidence to support
any position and so we must decide for ourselves what is balanced and
true. The sources I get my information from seem reliable to me and do
have research backing them (if that is something that proves truth to
you.) Some examples are Mothering magazine, Diet for a New America by John
Robbins, GeneWatch, A Real Life, Nature Conservancy, WWF, PETA, various
conferences I've attended with well respected speakers, and also many inside
connections my husband has (EPA, etc.)
Again, I'm not holding what I say as THE ONE AND
ONLY TRUTH. These are just my beliefs, take them or leave
them.
In addition, you do not know me personally. I
don't do any of the things to my son that you have suggested previously.
We are a very happy family. If I were to judge you by your postings I
would conclude that you are adversarial and controlling, but I have not drawn
any conclusions about you and I'd ask the same respect.
Also, I'd like to point out that the people on this
list are mature adult that can make their own decisions about what to
believe. They don't need you to protect them. If your intention was
to show me the bright side I suggest you rethink your approach.
Lastly, I'm sure many people could use those
"horror stories" to make informed decisions about schooling. You might
think about sharing them. That's certainly my reason for sharing my "horror
stories", not to make myself holier than thou. It would be much easier to
keep my mouth shut when my beliefs happen to be in the minority
and cause so much anger and judgment to be directed my way.
Collette
----- Original Message -----From: SandraDodd@...Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 10:51 AMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianism-=-I didn't get the impression that anyone had lost sight of the rainbow,
just didn't sugar coat the truth.-=-
-=-Besides, maybe it's Sandra that doesn't have her facts right.-=-
Although that's always possible, the likelihood's not high.
The "fact" I'm trying to impress on people here is that life cannot be lived
peacefully and happily if the world sucks, cats are destroying nature, all
water is poison (which is TOTALLY untrue), humans are a virus, or any of the
several other horror-tales which have been presented here in the past week.
I hope people aren't telling their sweet young children those things. If so,
the kids might be better off in school with SOME hope for balance.
Now I don't believe that any family is always negative. I don't believe any
one human REALLY believes the world is a cesspool of pollution and sin and
malice. But there were glimpses of such naysaying and doomspeaking here on
this list, lately.
People shouldn't say things which aren't backed up by facts, and there are
sources for far-edge, fright-facts. There are such sources for
environmentalists, and for nutritionists, and for educators, and home
educators, and the conservative right and the radical left. There are
sources for fundamentalist Christians to stay so riled up all day, every day,
about the devil in Pokemon and the evil in television that they could NEVER
take a calm, deep breath and look at the sky and be happy to have their
children with them.
I could tell you all scare stories about teaching too, but I won't.
We could invite someone in here (if there's not one already) who could tell
child protective services horror stories, or police-work horror stories.
Let's Don't!!
It's not sugarcoating the truth to turn your face toward the light instead of
toward the dark. There IS light, and there IS darkness. Now what? We
cannot destroy darkness.
It's not sugarcoating the truth to introduce your children to other families
you would like for them to be like and maybe to marry into or learn from or
hang out with for life, instead of taking them to parole hearings or a bar to
find them some new friends who aren't working in the daytime anyway and have
some free time and REALLY know what the REAL truth about life is, without
"sugarcoating."
There are unquestionably ugly and horrible things happening right at this
moment, right in my town. When Holly wakes up and comes in here, she will
want me to smile at her and make that moment sweet and good. If she drinks
faucet water I won't scream and throw the glass down. If she plays in the
dirt I won't talk to her about bacteria or feces. If she picks up a bird's
nest from the ground, I won't slap it away and lecture her on bird lice. If
she rubs noses with the dog or cats I won't discuss unsanitary mucus horrors
with her. I will be pleasant and patient and that will make her life today
better than if I set my mind on ugliness and horror and treat her like a
character in Mad Max or Water World or Tank Girl or whatever end-of-world
panic some people on this list seem to be fantasizing about.
If I were to have said nothing about the natural death of birds or wild cats
in Maryland, would this list have been more peaceful or the people on it
happier? "Balance" and "truth" are what I'm saying, not "don't care."
Sandra
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Collette Mattingly
Ooh, Lynda, you're giving me goosebumps. I
loved your rant.
----- Original Message -----From: LyndaSent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 12:21 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianismNo offense, but this answer is very head in the sandish.
"San Francisco and Chicago have fine water." Define "fine." As someone who
has seen the water reports, I guess having only slightly more heavy metals
in your water than the end result of some 3 level processing sewer farms
could be considered "fine." I mean, all things being relative.
"I'm sure the pesiticides aren't worse than Silent Spring Days." They are
simply different pesiticides and every bit as bad. There is more arsenic in
the water, more farm crop run offs and all those pesticides that we
supposedly stopped using are still there. DDT is a happy little camper that
is still at above acceptable levels many years after it has been banned.
Rules like "don't use within 100 feet of a water source" are a joke. Since
when did runoff respect the 100 foot rule?
Now for a real rant <g> "Of course, the companies don't do anything that
stupid. Is it possible that some other modifications might have odd side
effects . . ." Sorry, of course the companies DO do things that stupid!
Can we spell c-i-g-e-r-e-t-t-e-s? And I don't consider death to be an odd
side effect. When you start splicing genes and you don't label the product
as containing those various genes, you risk (and it isn't a minor
possibility, it is a probability and has already happened) death as your end
result. Not from cancer but from allergic reactions. Some allergies such
as to the ingredients in aspirin and to nuts, specifically peanuts is not
just some shrug it off allergy. Not knowing what is in your food IS poison
to some people. And playing gene splicing games that make plants more
receptive to pesiticides is making a plant that will hold those pesticides
to rates far exceeding what they now do.
This whole issue is based on $$$ and not on what is good for anyone but some
fat cat's bank roll! And, that ain't crap science, that is a fact!
Now, on to CA's energy crisis. Please stick to the facts instead of what
the nice little news media and the right wing Fox type channels are spewing.
Yes, most of CA's power crisis is directly related to politics. Also, only
ONE power plants was stopped in CA by the environmentalists. Personally, I
wish they had been able to stop a few more. I've never seen such stupidity
in all my life as building nuclear power plants on active earthquake faults!
How about if we put some of the blame where it belongs, right directly into
the lap of a Republican govenor who had aspirations of running for president
and who got taken by some folks that turned around and put their money in
the Dumbya coffers for his run for president. Let's take the $100,000
clubers and name some names. Let's look at fat cats such as Kenneth Lay,
CEO of Enron Corp and Steve Ledbetter, CEO of Reliant Energy. These two
bought up a large number of the power plants when they were put up for sale
and have been systematically/deliberatly shutting down the plants to drive
up the prices. Let's talk Hurowitz (Maxxam) who owned blocks of power, who
decided to teach his Kaiser employees a lesson (don't you dare go out on
strike at one of my plants) by laying them all off for 4 months and then
selling his power block for a $32 MILLION profit.
Hey, let's talk about good ol' Cheney and the 40 to 50 natural gas wells
drilled in and around this supposed home state that are capped and not being
used.
And, there is plenty of power to be generated, the only problem is there is
a big profit to be made on things such as wind farms, so no one is rushing
out to build them.
And we could always talk about folks such as Ultra-Power who did a cut off
your nose to spit your face game when they shut down their power
plants--they shut down their scrap burning plants because they wanted to
burn tires. Gee, I guess that was very NIMBY of the local residents (NOT
environmentalists), I mean, how short sited not to want your house, yard and
cars covered with black soot and wanting to be able to breath without a
ventilator.
Now, as to being local. Perhaps you could tell that to folks on the east
coast that are paying $500 a month and more for heating this winter. Or
perhaps you would care to tell the folks in SD, ND and the Four Corners who
couldn't afford propane this winter and the folks who froze to death. And
you can tell that to the folks in NY who are being warned right now to
expect the same (rolling blackouts) this summer. CA is just making the big
headlines.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <phoenix@...>
>
>
> Who's 'we', and is the water worse than it was in the 1970s? San
Francisco
> and Chicago have fine water. LA doesn't, but LA's lucky to have any
water.
>
> Worse than the 1960s and 1970s? I'm sure the pesticides aren't worse than
> _Silent Spring_ days. And there's all this organically grown food you can
buy
> now!
>
> As for gene modification... rant time.
>
> The question of whether GMOs are safe is, in a sense, meaningless. It
depends
> on what the modification _is_. Obviously if you put belladonna poison
genes
> into a potato the potato isn't going to be safe! Of course, the companies
> don't do anything that stupid. Is it possible that some other
modifications
> might have odd side effects, or limit food value, since we don't know
> everything about how nutrients are absorbed? Yes.
>
> On the other hand, the belief some people have that genetically modified
food
> is inherently bad is simply crap science. Our "natural" food, animal and
> vegetable, is quite removed from its wild form, and cells don't care where
> their genes come from.
>
> And when we're contemplating the possible riskiness of GM food, consider
the
> other risks in life. Any obvious poisons, and hopefully allergens, aren't
> going to be put into the food, so the most likely drawback is a bit of
extra
> carcinogenicity, on top of the carcinogens already in the food naturally,
on
> top of the pesticides, on top of the for-most-Americans much bigger risks
of
> eating too much saturated fat and sugar, and not enough fruit and
vegetables,
> and not getting enough exercise.
>
> Not that cancer is good. But I'm saying _if something goes wrong_ the
most
> likely risk is a slightly increased chance of cancer. This is something
you
> worry about after changing your diet and stopping smoking and starting
> exercising, because heart disease is a lot more likely to kill you than
> cancer.
>
> Now, I admit that in the era of mad cow disease prions there are other
things
> to worry about, and sometimes I feel the companies are a bit too sanguine
> about our food supply. But I don't like seeing unscientific fear of
genetic
> engineering or cloning, either.
>
> End rant.
>
> > back, and rolling power blackouts. Hmmm, we're not quite there yet, but
give
>
> The rolling blackouts would be more relevant if they were related to a
> systematic shortage of power and overconsumption of energy. In fact
> California is 47th in power usage, partly because of mild climate but also
> because of aggressive conservation measures -- starting from the 1970s.
And
> the lack of power is not from some global shortage but because we haven't
> built any plants in a decade. Because we're so democratic (as in popular
> input into everything) and environmentalist (trying to get that clean air
and
> water back, after the 1970s) that no one's been able to build one. And
> deregulation wasn't designed very well, and there's evidence of power
> suppliers trying to cut supply and raise prices.
>
> Yes, it's a big problem here, but seeing it as a sign of oncoming doom is
> unsupportable. This is a specifically political local fuckup.
>
> -xx- Damien X-)
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Collette Mattingly
Sandra, I didn't necessarily mean to share your
stories on this list. How about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be
interested in making a difference in the world. Personally I've come to
believe your interest in this conversation is purely in being right, which
means I'm wasting my time. So if it makes you feel better, you
win. I'm finished wasting my time. Collette
----- Original Message -----From: SandraDodd@...Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 1:13 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianismIn a message dated 4/5/01 9:54:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
collettemattingly@... writes:
, I'm sure many people could use those "horror stories" to make informed
decisions about schooling.
This is a list of homeschoolers. They don't need to decide; they've decided.
I could spend the rest of my life reviewing the evils of the past, but I
prefer to look to the joy of the moment.
Sandra
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[email protected]
This is a specifically political local fuckup.
Marianne
>ooh! damien used the *F* word!!!!!
> -xx- Damien X-)
Marianne
Patti
One at a time...
At 12:26 PM 4/4/01, you wrote:
past couple years.
should.
harmful to us has been banned.
would like to see us use more nuclear power, as well as develop fusion
plants. With as much as the population is growing we need to look into
that instead of trying to find more oil. Nuclear power is safe, especially
in this country where we have the highest standards anywhere in the
world. We have the cleanest factories, the cleanest power plants, but yet
other countries 'blame us' for not doing enough when they spew more in one
month that we do in ten years. We have the highest protection for the
environment, while other countries destroy theirs, tearing it down and
polluting it still while blaming us.
'touristy' part, visit the real part where the people live. I can
guarantee you when you come back you will never gripe and complain about
the US again.
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
At 12:26 PM 4/4/01, you wrote:
>Yeah, instead we have no clean water to drink (of course, rich folks can buyMy city is in the top ten for clean drinking water and has been for the
>expensive filters or bottled water),
past couple years.
>water on our beaches that is too toxicCertainly not here! Our water is pretty clean to swim/surf in.
>to swim in,
>food that is genetically modifiedI guess if I said to irradiate our meat you'd be against that? I think we
should.
>and pesticided to hell andNot quite as bad as you make it to be. Most stuff that was found to be
>back,
harmful to us has been banned.
>and rolling power blackouts.This is a California problem. <severe political incorrectness coming> I
would like to see us use more nuclear power, as well as develop fusion
plants. With as much as the population is growing we need to look into
that instead of trying to find more oil. Nuclear power is safe, especially
in this country where we have the highest standards anywhere in the
world. We have the cleanest factories, the cleanest power plants, but yet
other countries 'blame us' for not doing enough when they spew more in one
month that we do in ten years. We have the highest protection for the
environment, while other countries destroy theirs, tearing it down and
polluting it still while blaming us.
>Hmmm, we're not quite there yet, but giveYes. Better yet, go to a foreign country like Italy. Don't visit the
>us a couple more decades :-). Oops, is it time to put my head back in the
>sand yet?
'touristy' part, visit the real part where the people live. I can
guarantee you when you come back you will never gripe and complain about
the US again.
> Blue Skies!Patti
> -Robin-
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
[email protected]
-=-Sandra, why must you discourage people from caring?-=-
"Caring" and "doomsaying" (with the inherent insult to everyone else in range
for having destroyed the earth) aren't the same thing.
Sandra
"Caring" and "doomsaying" (with the inherent insult to everyone else in range
for having destroyed the earth) aren't the same thing.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/5/01 8:27:25 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
collettemattingly@... writes:
collettemattingly@... writes:
I didn't get the impression that anyone had lost sight of the rainbow, just
didn't sugar coat the truth. Besides, maybe it's Sandra that doesn't have
her facts right.
[email protected]
-=-I didn't get the impression that anyone had lost sight of the rainbow,
just didn't sugar coat the truth.-=-
-=-Besides, maybe it's Sandra that doesn't have her facts right.-=-
Although that's always possible, the likelihood's not high.
The "fact" I'm trying to impress on people here is that life cannot be lived
peacefully and happily if the world sucks, cats are destroying nature, all
water is poison (which is TOTALLY untrue), humans are a virus, or any of the
several other horror-tales which have been presented here in the past week.
I hope people aren't telling their sweet young children those things. If so,
the kids might be better off in school with SOME hope for balance.
Now I don't believe that any family is always negative. I don't believe any
one human REALLY believes the world is a cesspool of pollution and sin and
malice. But there were glimpses of such naysaying and doomspeaking here on
this list, lately.
People shouldn't say things which aren't backed up by facts, and there are
sources for far-edge, fright-facts. There are such sources for
environmentalists, and for nutritionists, and for educators, and home
educators, and the conservative right and the radical left. There are
sources for fundamentalist Christians to stay so riled up all day, every day,
about the devil in Pokemon and the evil in television that they could NEVER
take a calm, deep breath and look at the sky and be happy to have their
children with them.
I could tell you all scare stories about teaching too, but I won't.
We could invite someone in here (if there's not one already) who could tell
child protective services horror stories, or police-work horror stories.
Let's Don't!!
It's not sugarcoating the truth to turn your face toward the light instead of
toward the dark. There IS light, and there IS darkness. Now what? We
cannot destroy darkness.
It's not sugarcoating the truth to introduce your children to other families
you would like for them to be like and maybe to marry into or learn from or
hang out with for life, instead of taking them to parole hearings or a bar to
find them some new friends who aren't working in the daytime anyway and have
some free time and REALLY know what the REAL truth about life is, without
"sugarcoating."
There are unquestionably ugly and horrible things happening right at this
moment, right in my town. When Holly wakes up and comes in here, she will
want me to smile at her and make that moment sweet and good. If she drinks
faucet water I won't scream and throw the glass down. If she plays in the
dirt I won't talk to her about bacteria or feces. If she picks up a bird's
nest from the ground, I won't slap it away and lecture her on bird lice. If
she rubs noses with the dog or cats I won't discuss unsanitary mucus horrors
with her. I will be pleasant and patient and that will make her life today
better than if I set my mind on ugliness and horror and treat her like a
character in Mad Max or Water World or Tank Girl or whatever end-of-world
panic some people on this list seem to be fantasizing about.
If I were to have said nothing about the natural death of birds or wild cats
in Maryland, would this list have been more peaceful or the people on it
happier? "Balance" and "truth" are what I'm saying, not "don't care."
Sandra
just didn't sugar coat the truth.-=-
-=-Besides, maybe it's Sandra that doesn't have her facts right.-=-
Although that's always possible, the likelihood's not high.
The "fact" I'm trying to impress on people here is that life cannot be lived
peacefully and happily if the world sucks, cats are destroying nature, all
water is poison (which is TOTALLY untrue), humans are a virus, or any of the
several other horror-tales which have been presented here in the past week.
I hope people aren't telling their sweet young children those things. If so,
the kids might be better off in school with SOME hope for balance.
Now I don't believe that any family is always negative. I don't believe any
one human REALLY believes the world is a cesspool of pollution and sin and
malice. But there were glimpses of such naysaying and doomspeaking here on
this list, lately.
People shouldn't say things which aren't backed up by facts, and there are
sources for far-edge, fright-facts. There are such sources for
environmentalists, and for nutritionists, and for educators, and home
educators, and the conservative right and the radical left. There are
sources for fundamentalist Christians to stay so riled up all day, every day,
about the devil in Pokemon and the evil in television that they could NEVER
take a calm, deep breath and look at the sky and be happy to have their
children with them.
I could tell you all scare stories about teaching too, but I won't.
We could invite someone in here (if there's not one already) who could tell
child protective services horror stories, or police-work horror stories.
Let's Don't!!
It's not sugarcoating the truth to turn your face toward the light instead of
toward the dark. There IS light, and there IS darkness. Now what? We
cannot destroy darkness.
It's not sugarcoating the truth to introduce your children to other families
you would like for them to be like and maybe to marry into or learn from or
hang out with for life, instead of taking them to parole hearings or a bar to
find them some new friends who aren't working in the daytime anyway and have
some free time and REALLY know what the REAL truth about life is, without
"sugarcoating."
There are unquestionably ugly and horrible things happening right at this
moment, right in my town. When Holly wakes up and comes in here, she will
want me to smile at her and make that moment sweet and good. If she drinks
faucet water I won't scream and throw the glass down. If she plays in the
dirt I won't talk to her about bacteria or feces. If she picks up a bird's
nest from the ground, I won't slap it away and lecture her on bird lice. If
she rubs noses with the dog or cats I won't discuss unsanitary mucus horrors
with her. I will be pleasant and patient and that will make her life today
better than if I set my mind on ugliness and horror and treat her like a
character in Mad Max or Water World or Tank Girl or whatever end-of-world
panic some people on this list seem to be fantasizing about.
If I were to have said nothing about the natural death of birds or wild cats
in Maryland, would this list have been more peaceful or the people on it
happier? "Balance" and "truth" are what I'm saying, not "don't care."
Sandra
DiamondAir
> From: Patti <prcst@...>Bully for you. So is mine, which I happen to enjoy. I only wish other people
> My city is in the top ten for clean drinking water and has been for the
> past couple years.
were so lucky. Perhaps you'd like them all to move to your town? I'd
personally prefer that everyone have access to clean water.
> I guess if I said to irradiate our meat you'd be against that? I think weWell, as I'm a vegetarian, I think the whole idea of meat production is
> should.
ludicrous to begin with, so it's a bit of a non-question to me.
> Not quite as bad as you make it to be. Most stuff that was found to beUmmmm.. what can I say to this? It's simply so false as to be almost funny
> harmful to us has been banned.
if it just wasn't. Rather, most of the stuff that was found to be harmful
after environmentalists screamed loudly about it has been banned after much
hard work. Of course, companies like Monsanto have come out with newer and
"greater" pesticides and herbicides that are now under investigation. It's
an endless circle. Hopefully though the growing awareness by people who want
food grown without adverse impact on the land will someday grow to such a
point as to put this problem to rest (taking off rosy glasses now :-)
> This is a California problem. <severe political incorrectness coming> Iespecially
> would like to see us use more nuclear power, as well as develop fusion
> plants. With as much as the population is growing we need to look into
> that instead of trying to find more oil. Nuclear power is safe,
> in this country where we have the highest standards anywhere in theHmmm, is that why Oregon shut down their nuclear plant (it was so
> world.
dangerously faulty that they were fearing another 3 Mile Island,
incidentally)....
Thanks but no thanks. As long as nuclear energy has the vast potential for
danger that it does, and as long as it is controlled by faulty humans and/or
computers, I'll vote for something safe and cheap like solar, wind, tide,
etc.
> Yes. Better yet, go to a foreign country like Italy. Don't visit theUmmm, let's see. I've been to Europe, Asia, Micronesia, Africa, & Central
> 'touristy' part, visit the real part where the people live. I can
> guarantee you when you come back you will never gripe and complain about
> the US again.
America. And by being in different places in the world, I learned that
America isn't the be-all and end-all of existence as I was taught growing up
here. As a matter of fact, many other places do some things so *much* better
than America that it really opened my eyes. I've seen great mass
transportation systems in Europe and Japan, I've seen solar energy utilized
in Africa, I've seen great appliances like on-demand hot water heaters that
are quite hard to even buy here in the "great" U.S. I've also seen terrible
pollution and environmental devastation. I've seen indigenous populations
that were just a few decades past being exposed to Western "conveniences"
and the disconnection that occurs when two culture collide. I've seen many
things that made me appreciate America, and many things that opened my eyes
to our American faults and hubris. Living in other areas of the world is
going to be an important part of our unschooling journey with our children.
I want them to see first-hand the benefits and disadvantages of many
different ways of doing things.
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "My pants are outgrowing me"
and Asa (10/5/99) "Potty pee! Potty pee! Potty pee!"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family
Lynda
No offense, but this answer is very head in the sandish.
"San Francisco and Chicago have fine water." Define "fine." As someone who
has seen the water reports, I guess having only slightly more heavy metals
in your water than the end result of some 3 level processing sewer farms
could be considered "fine." I mean, all things being relative.
"I'm sure the pesiticides aren't worse than Silent Spring Days." They are
simply different pesiticides and every bit as bad. There is more arsenic in
the water, more farm crop run offs and all those pesticides that we
supposedly stopped using are still there. DDT is a happy little camper that
is still at above acceptable levels many years after it has been banned.
Rules like "don't use within 100 feet of a water source" are a joke. Since
when did runoff respect the 100 foot rule?
Now for a real rant <g> "Of course, the companies don't do anything that
stupid. Is it possible that some other modifications might have odd side
effects . . ." Sorry, of course the companies DO do things that stupid!
Can we spell c-i-g-e-r-e-t-t-e-s? And I don't consider death to be an odd
side effect. When you start splicing genes and you don't label the product
as containing those various genes, you risk (and it isn't a minor
possibility, it is a probability and has already happened) death as your end
result. Not from cancer but from allergic reactions. Some allergies such
as to the ingredients in aspirin and to nuts, specifically peanuts is not
just some shrug it off allergy. Not knowing what is in your food IS poison
to some people. And playing gene splicing games that make plants more
receptive to pesiticides is making a plant that will hold those pesticides
to rates far exceeding what they now do.
This whole issue is based on $$$ and not on what is good for anyone but some
fat cat's bank roll! And, that ain't crap science, that is a fact!
Now, on to CA's energy crisis. Please stick to the facts instead of what
the nice little news media and the right wing Fox type channels are spewing.
Yes, most of CA's power crisis is directly related to politics. Also, only
ONE power plants was stopped in CA by the environmentalists. Personally, I
wish they had been able to stop a few more. I've never seen such stupidity
in all my life as building nuclear power plants on active earthquake faults!
How about if we put some of the blame where it belongs, right directly into
the lap of a Republican govenor who had aspirations of running for president
and who got taken by some folks that turned around and put their money in
the Dumbya coffers for his run for president. Let's take the $100,000
clubers and name some names. Let's look at fat cats such as Kenneth Lay,
CEO of Enron Corp and Steve Ledbetter, CEO of Reliant Energy. These two
bought up a large number of the power plants when they were put up for sale
and have been systematically/deliberatly shutting down the plants to drive
up the prices. Let's talk Hurowitz (Maxxam) who owned blocks of power, who
decided to teach his Kaiser employees a lesson (don't you dare go out on
strike at one of my plants) by laying them all off for 4 months and then
selling his power block for a $32 MILLION profit.
Hey, let's talk about good ol' Cheney and the 40 to 50 natural gas wells
drilled in and around this supposed home state that are capped and not being
used.
And, there is plenty of power to be generated, the only problem is there is
a big profit to be made on things such as wind farms, so no one is rushing
out to build them.
And we could always talk about folks such as Ultra-Power who did a cut off
your nose to spit your face game when they shut down their power
plants--they shut down their scrap burning plants because they wanted to
burn tires. Gee, I guess that was very NIMBY of the local residents (NOT
environmentalists), I mean, how short sited not to want your house, yard and
cars covered with black soot and wanting to be able to breath without a
ventilator.
Now, as to being local. Perhaps you could tell that to folks on the east
coast that are paying $500 a month and more for heating this winter. Or
perhaps you would care to tell the folks in SD, ND and the Four Corners who
couldn't afford propane this winter and the folks who froze to death. And
you can tell that to the folks in NY who are being warned right now to
expect the same (rolling blackouts) this summer. CA is just making the big
headlines.
Lynda
"San Francisco and Chicago have fine water." Define "fine." As someone who
has seen the water reports, I guess having only slightly more heavy metals
in your water than the end result of some 3 level processing sewer farms
could be considered "fine." I mean, all things being relative.
"I'm sure the pesiticides aren't worse than Silent Spring Days." They are
simply different pesiticides and every bit as bad. There is more arsenic in
the water, more farm crop run offs and all those pesticides that we
supposedly stopped using are still there. DDT is a happy little camper that
is still at above acceptable levels many years after it has been banned.
Rules like "don't use within 100 feet of a water source" are a joke. Since
when did runoff respect the 100 foot rule?
Now for a real rant <g> "Of course, the companies don't do anything that
stupid. Is it possible that some other modifications might have odd side
effects . . ." Sorry, of course the companies DO do things that stupid!
Can we spell c-i-g-e-r-e-t-t-e-s? And I don't consider death to be an odd
side effect. When you start splicing genes and you don't label the product
as containing those various genes, you risk (and it isn't a minor
possibility, it is a probability and has already happened) death as your end
result. Not from cancer but from allergic reactions. Some allergies such
as to the ingredients in aspirin and to nuts, specifically peanuts is not
just some shrug it off allergy. Not knowing what is in your food IS poison
to some people. And playing gene splicing games that make plants more
receptive to pesiticides is making a plant that will hold those pesticides
to rates far exceeding what they now do.
This whole issue is based on $$$ and not on what is good for anyone but some
fat cat's bank roll! And, that ain't crap science, that is a fact!
Now, on to CA's energy crisis. Please stick to the facts instead of what
the nice little news media and the right wing Fox type channels are spewing.
Yes, most of CA's power crisis is directly related to politics. Also, only
ONE power plants was stopped in CA by the environmentalists. Personally, I
wish they had been able to stop a few more. I've never seen such stupidity
in all my life as building nuclear power plants on active earthquake faults!
How about if we put some of the blame where it belongs, right directly into
the lap of a Republican govenor who had aspirations of running for president
and who got taken by some folks that turned around and put their money in
the Dumbya coffers for his run for president. Let's take the $100,000
clubers and name some names. Let's look at fat cats such as Kenneth Lay,
CEO of Enron Corp and Steve Ledbetter, CEO of Reliant Energy. These two
bought up a large number of the power plants when they were put up for sale
and have been systematically/deliberatly shutting down the plants to drive
up the prices. Let's talk Hurowitz (Maxxam) who owned blocks of power, who
decided to teach his Kaiser employees a lesson (don't you dare go out on
strike at one of my plants) by laying them all off for 4 months and then
selling his power block for a $32 MILLION profit.
Hey, let's talk about good ol' Cheney and the 40 to 50 natural gas wells
drilled in and around this supposed home state that are capped and not being
used.
And, there is plenty of power to be generated, the only problem is there is
a big profit to be made on things such as wind farms, so no one is rushing
out to build them.
And we could always talk about folks such as Ultra-Power who did a cut off
your nose to spit your face game when they shut down their power
plants--they shut down their scrap burning plants because they wanted to
burn tires. Gee, I guess that was very NIMBY of the local residents (NOT
environmentalists), I mean, how short sited not to want your house, yard and
cars covered with black soot and wanting to be able to breath without a
ventilator.
Now, as to being local. Perhaps you could tell that to folks on the east
coast that are paying $500 a month and more for heating this winter. Or
perhaps you would care to tell the folks in SD, ND and the Four Corners who
couldn't afford propane this winter and the folks who froze to death. And
you can tell that to the folks in NY who are being warned right now to
expect the same (rolling blackouts) this summer. CA is just making the big
headlines.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <phoenix@...>
>
>
> Who's 'we', and is the water worse than it was in the 1970s? San
Francisco
> and Chicago have fine water. LA doesn't, but LA's lucky to have any
water.
>
> Worse than the 1960s and 1970s? I'm sure the pesticides aren't worse than
> _Silent Spring_ days. And there's all this organically grown food you can
buy
> now!
>
> As for gene modification... rant time.
>
> The question of whether GMOs are safe is, in a sense, meaningless. It
depends
> on what the modification _is_. Obviously if you put belladonna poison
genes
> into a potato the potato isn't going to be safe! Of course, the companies
> don't do anything that stupid. Is it possible that some other
modifications
> might have odd side effects, or limit food value, since we don't know
> everything about how nutrients are absorbed? Yes.
>
> On the other hand, the belief some people have that genetically modified
food
> is inherently bad is simply crap science. Our "natural" food, animal and
> vegetable, is quite removed from its wild form, and cells don't care where
> their genes come from.
>
> And when we're contemplating the possible riskiness of GM food, consider
the
> other risks in life. Any obvious poisons, and hopefully allergens, aren't
> going to be put into the food, so the most likely drawback is a bit of
extra
> carcinogenicity, on top of the carcinogens already in the food naturally,
on
> top of the pesticides, on top of the for-most-Americans much bigger risks
of
> eating too much saturated fat and sugar, and not enough fruit and
vegetables,
> and not getting enough exercise.
>
> Not that cancer is good. But I'm saying _if something goes wrong_ the
most
> likely risk is a slightly increased chance of cancer. This is something
you
> worry about after changing your diet and stopping smoking and starting
> exercising, because heart disease is a lot more likely to kill you than
> cancer.
>
> Now, I admit that in the era of mad cow disease prions there are other
things
> to worry about, and sometimes I feel the companies are a bit too sanguine
> about our food supply. But I don't like seeing unscientific fear of
genetic
> engineering or cloning, either.
>
> End rant.
>
> > back, and rolling power blackouts. Hmmm, we're not quite there yet, but
give
>
> The rolling blackouts would be more relevant if they were related to a
> systematic shortage of power and overconsumption of energy. In fact
> California is 47th in power usage, partly because of mild climate but also
> because of aggressive conservation measures -- starting from the 1970s.
And
> the lack of power is not from some global shortage but because we haven't
> built any plants in a decade. Because we're so democratic (as in popular
> input into everything) and environmentalist (trying to get that clean air
and
> water back, after the 1970s) that no one's been able to build one. And
> deregulation wasn't designed very well, and there's evidence of power
> suppliers trying to cut supply and raise prices.
>
> Yes, it's a big problem here, but seeing it as a sign of oncoming doom is
> unsupportable. This is a specifically political local fuckup.
>
> -xx- Damien X-)
Tami Labig-Duquette
If i may be so bold to say :) Sandra knows her stuff!! So I doubt she has
her facts wrong.
Tami
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
her facts wrong.
Tami
>From: "Collette Mattingly" <collettemattingly@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianism
>Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 22:22:42 -0400
>
>I didn't get the impression that anyone had lost sight of the rainbow, just
>didn't sugar coat the truth. Besides, maybe it's Sandra that doesn't have
>her facts right.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: phoenix@...
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianism
>
>
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2001 05:47:02 -0400
> "Collette Mattingly" <collettemattingly@...> wrote:
>
> > Sandra, why must you discourage people from caring?
>
> I saw her as encouraging people to get their facts right, and
>discouraging
> them from saying the sky has fallen when it hasn't. It's fine to warn
>about
> clouds on the horizon, but don't lose sight of the rainbow you're
>standing on.
>
> -xx- Damien X-)
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/5/01 9:54:01 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
collettemattingly@... writes:
collettemattingly@... writes:
, I'm sure many people could use those "horror stories" to make informed
decisions about schooling.
This is a list of homeschoolers. They don't need to decide; they've decided.
I could spend the rest of my life reviewing the evils of the past, but I
prefer to look to the joy of the moment.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 04/05/2001 2:55:55 PM !!!First Boot!!!, SandraDodd@...
writes:
LOL -- how silly is my life?? Just yesterday I was wondering with another
Mom why we hadn't heard that Pokemon are evil because they do "evolve" you
know. Just a day late in our rumor mill around here, I guess. :)
Nance
writes:
about the devil in Pokemon
LOL -- how silly is my life?? Just yesterday I was wondering with another
Mom why we hadn't heard that Pokemon are evil because they do "evolve" you
know. Just a day late in our rumor mill around here, I guess. :)
Nance
[email protected]
First, let me be the first of many to stand up (here by my computer) and say
Sandra Dodd HAS made a huge difference in my family's life and thus our
world.
This vegetarian, imprisoned cat, save the world conversation is way
interesting guys. I'm learning so much hearing the different sides here.
Um, I guess what makes me uncomfortable is the judgmental tone I've heard
throughout your conversation. (Directed at no one in particular, just several
posts.) How do you expect to attract those of us with our "heads in the sand"
to your consciousness-raising messages with the
look-at-how-I-live-my-life-if-only-everyone-could-do-the-same,
self-congratulatory tone that permeates your posts? And do you live your life
in this exemplary way in EVERY area? Aren't you spread kinda thin?
I have a close friend who works for a peace awareness organization. She is
passionately involved in her family's work here and answers my questions
thoughtfully and honestly. She and her husband have spent time in prison for
living their beliefs. But she doesn't recruit people to live as they do. Or
to believe as they do. And she doesn't "run down" or criticize those who
haven't had their consciousness raised to the point where they are aware of
the issues that she and her family focus their energies on. Or those who have
chosen to focus their energies elsewhere.
Her husband was jailed a few weeks ago at a protest they attended. We had a
conversation about our kids at that time, and she didn't say, "Gee, where
were you? Maybe if you had attended this protest instead of taking the kids
to McDonald's, our voices would have been heard. Why can't you risk jail time
for what you believe in? If more people lived their convictions...yada yada
..."
She is an inspiration to me in many ways, but her ability to let her life
speak for itself is her strongest witness to me. (You don't find her on her
butt in front of a computer chair typing this post, either. Hmmm.)
Laura
Sandra Dodd HAS made a huge difference in my family's life and thus our
world.
This vegetarian, imprisoned cat, save the world conversation is way
interesting guys. I'm learning so much hearing the different sides here.
Um, I guess what makes me uncomfortable is the judgmental tone I've heard
throughout your conversation. (Directed at no one in particular, just several
posts.) How do you expect to attract those of us with our "heads in the sand"
to your consciousness-raising messages with the
look-at-how-I-live-my-life-if-only-everyone-could-do-the-same,
self-congratulatory tone that permeates your posts? And do you live your life
in this exemplary way in EVERY area? Aren't you spread kinda thin?
I have a close friend who works for a peace awareness organization. She is
passionately involved in her family's work here and answers my questions
thoughtfully and honestly. She and her husband have spent time in prison for
living their beliefs. But she doesn't recruit people to live as they do. Or
to believe as they do. And she doesn't "run down" or criticize those who
haven't had their consciousness raised to the point where they are aware of
the issues that she and her family focus their energies on. Or those who have
chosen to focus their energies elsewhere.
Her husband was jailed a few weeks ago at a protest they attended. We had a
conversation about our kids at that time, and she didn't say, "Gee, where
were you? Maybe if you had attended this protest instead of taking the kids
to McDonald's, our voices would have been heard. Why can't you risk jail time
for what you believe in? If more people lived their convictions...yada yada
..."
She is an inspiration to me in many ways, but her ability to let her life
speak for itself is her strongest witness to me. (You don't find her on her
butt in front of a computer chair typing this post, either. Hmmm.)
Laura
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/5/01 1:02:02 PM, collettemattingly@... writes:
<< Sandra, I didn't necessarily mean to share your stories on this list. How
about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be interested in making a
difference in the world. >>
This is about as big an insult as I've received in the past ten years.
I guess my life could be way worse!
(If you're in Albuquerque, feel free to come by and I'll introduce you to my
neighbors, and my friends, and you can see whether they think I've ever done
them any good whatsoever.)
Sandra
Sandra
<< Sandra, I didn't necessarily mean to share your stories on this list. How
about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be interested in making a
difference in the world. >>
This is about as big an insult as I've received in the past ten years.
I guess my life could be way worse!
(If you're in Albuquerque, feel free to come by and I'll introduce you to my
neighbors, and my friends, and you can see whether they think I've ever done
them any good whatsoever.)
Sandra
Sandra
Helen Hegener
At 5:26 PM -0400 4/5/01, SandraDodd@... wrote:
person who's done more for unschooling in those last ten years than
most people.
Helen
>In a message dated 4/5/01 1:02:02 PM, collettemattingly@... writes:FWIW, I thought so too. It was an uncalled-for slap at a very good
>
><< Sandra, I didn't necessarily mean to share your stories on this list. How
>about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be interested in making a
>difference in the world. >>
>
>This is about as big an insult as I've received in the past ten years.
person who's done more for unschooling in those last ten years than
most people.
Helen
Lynda
"Patti" wrote:
thing about irradiating meat is a crock! Just one more way for some fat cat
to make money! AND, the important thing is that testing has not been done
as to the effects on pregnant women and infants. Sort of like the testing
they are now getting around to about the effects of microwaved foods.
country? Do you have any idea how many nuclear power plants have been
closed in this country as unsafe? AND, do you have any idea how much
nuclear waste is building up and can't be disposed of? Do you have any idea
of the number of leaking nuclear waste canisters there are in the ocean
right now?
Fact, nuclear energy is NOT safe!
We need to develop more wind farms, solar power and energy cells.
We have the cleanest factories, the cleanest power plants, but yet
apart. Give it another 6 months and we will have no protection at all!
And because we have clearER power plants etc is not a good argument. That
is the same arguments the kidlets try every now and again--well, Johnny did
thus and such and it is worse than what I did, why should I be in
trouble--and it doesn't fly for them either <g>
worse else where is no excuse for us to stop griping and complaining in an
attempt to improve what is here. Sorry, there are quite a few things in
other countries that are much better than what we have here and that
includes the environment. Not all countries nor all parts of all countries
are bad. At least in Italy when they had the mud slides the government had
the brass you-know-whats to stand up and say, "we made a mistake." You sure
don't see that here after the mud slides that have wiped out whole towns!
Lynda
> One at a time...***What city would that be?
>
> My city is in the top ten for clean drinking water and has been for the
> past couple years.
>***Same question.
> >water on our beaches that is too toxic
> >to swim in,
>snip<***As both a rancher and a butcher shop owner, I can tell you that the whole
> I guess if I said to irradiate our meat you'd be against that? I think we
> should.
thing about irradiating meat is a crock! Just one more way for some fat cat
to make money! AND, the important thing is that testing has not been done
as to the effects on pregnant women and infants. Sort of like the testing
they are now getting around to about the effects of microwaved foods.
>***Fallacy!
> Not quite as bad as you make it to be. Most stuff that was found to be
> harmful to us has been banned.
>especially
> This is a California problem. <severe political incorrectness coming> I
> would like to see us use more nuclear power, as well as develop fusion
> plants. With as much as the population is growing we need to look into
> that instead of trying to find more oil. Nuclear power is safe,
> in this country where we have the highest standards anywhere in the***Do you have any idea of the number of near misses there have been in this
> world.
country? Do you have any idea how many nuclear power plants have been
closed in this country as unsafe? AND, do you have any idea how much
nuclear waste is building up and can't be disposed of? Do you have any idea
of the number of leaking nuclear waste canisters there are in the ocean
right now?
Fact, nuclear energy is NOT safe!
We need to develop more wind farms, solar power and energy cells.
We have the cleanest factories, the cleanest power plants, but yet
> other countries 'blame us' for not doing enough when they spew more in one***We HAD high protection for the environment and it is rapidly being torn
> month that we do in ten years. We have the highest protection for the
> environment, while other countries destroy theirs, tearing it down and
> polluting it still while blaming us.
apart. Give it another 6 months and we will have no protection at all!
And because we have clearER power plants etc is not a good argument. That
is the same arguments the kidlets try every now and again--well, Johnny did
thus and such and it is worse than what I did, why should I be in
trouble--and it doesn't fly for them either <g>
>***Some of us have and again, just because some (and only some) things are
> Yes. Better yet, go to a foreign country like Italy. Don't visit the
> 'touristy' part, visit the real part where the people live. I can
> guarantee you when you come back you will never gripe and complain about
> the US again.
>
worse else where is no excuse for us to stop griping and complaining in an
attempt to improve what is here. Sorry, there are quite a few things in
other countries that are much better than what we have here and that
includes the environment. Not all countries nor all parts of all countries
are bad. At least in Italy when they had the mud slides the government had
the brass you-know-whats to stand up and say, "we made a mistake." You sure
don't see that here after the mud slides that have wiped out whole towns!
Lynda
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/5/01 4:44:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:
lurine@... writes:
." You sure
don't see that here after the mud slides that have wiped out whole towns!
After Mt. St. Helen's? (I don't guess the government would need to apologize
for that.)
What whole towns? I don't live around mudslide potential, so this is news to
me.
Sandra
Carrie DeFrancisco
At 5:26 PM -0400 4/5/01, SandraDodd@... wrote:
>In a message dated 4/5/01 1:02:02 PM, collettemattingly@... writes:
>
><< Sandra, I didn't necessarily mean to share your stories on this list. How
>about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be interested in making a
>difference in the world. >>
>In a message dated 4/5/01 1:02:02 PM, collettemattingly@... writes:
>
><< Sandra, I didn't necessarily mean to share your stories on this list. How
>about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be interested in making a
>difference in the world. >>
Dear Sandra and to everyone who shares their stories,
I find it very inspiring and helpful to read about
each of you and your family's successes and "failures" over the years in
your homeschooling adventure. I find this list to be very helpful
and inspiring because each of you are at different stages and places in
your homeschooling journey. Everyone has such interesting perspectives.
Thanks again to all who "share their stories." You are an inspiration
to all.
Caroline
Home Education Magazine
At 8:15 PM -0700 4/5/01, Carrie DeFrancisco wrote:
hard to think of some of the stuff we and our kids have done as bad
things, although to other people they might seem that way. Everything
is a learning experience, and while I probably paint a pretty rosy
picture of our lives, it hasn't always been easy to keep the needed
perspective. We've hit plenty of bumps in the road. And rocks. Big
ones. Washouts, even. But more often than not we've simply adjusted
our sights and built our own roads where we wanted to go. <g>
Helen
>Dear Sandra and to everyone who shares their stories,I'm glad you put "failures" in quotations, Caroline, because it's
> I find it very inspiring and helpful to read about each of you
>and your family's successes and "failures" over the years in your
>homeschooling adventure.
hard to think of some of the stuff we and our kids have done as bad
things, although to other people they might seem that way. Everything
is a learning experience, and while I probably paint a pretty rosy
picture of our lives, it hasn't always been easy to keep the needed
perspective. We've hit plenty of bumps in the road. And rocks. Big
ones. Washouts, even. But more often than not we've simply adjusted
our sights and built our own roads where we wanted to go. <g>
Helen
[email protected]
<< Sandra, I didn't necessarily mean to share your stories on this
list. How about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be interested in
making a
I find it very inspiring and helpful to read about each of you and
your family's successes and "failures" over the years in your
homeschooling adventure. >>
I have no problems sharing my family's successes and failures concerning
homeschooling.
What I didn't want to share here is teacher-stories, from when I taught
school. Those can stay at school. If we take our kids out of school but
bring all of school's "stuff" (including negativity) that's disadvantageous.
People here have already taken their kids out of school. Most of them have
already homeschooled by more school-like methods. They're at the unschooling
stage, and I don't think that's a good place to tell horror-anecdotes of
school and its effect on particular kids you don't even know.
Sandra
list. How about a nextdoor neighbor? But you'd have to be interested in
making a
>difference in the world. >><<Dear Sandra and to everyone who shares their stories,
I find it very inspiring and helpful to read about each of you and
your family's successes and "failures" over the years in your
homeschooling adventure. >>
I have no problems sharing my family's successes and failures concerning
homeschooling.
What I didn't want to share here is teacher-stories, from when I taught
school. Those can stay at school. If we take our kids out of school but
bring all of school's "stuff" (including negativity) that's disadvantageous.
People here have already taken their kids out of school. Most of them have
already homeschooled by more school-like methods. They're at the unschooling
stage, and I don't think that's a good place to tell horror-anecdotes of
school and its effect on particular kids you don't even know.
Sandra
Lynda
This has been happening through out the U.S. and
gets slim or none in news coverage. Some of them result from mining
operations, some from poor planning by city/county planning departments and
developers and some are the result of logging (clear cutting and logging on
unstable slops).
The two that are relatively resent and relatively
close are Salyer and Rio Nido. Of course the timber companies blame the
rain just like they blame the rain for silted up rivers. Why this hasn't
happened in the milliunium of years that passed before man decided to go for the
gold and rape the land of course is just phoo phooed away.
In Italy and China there were major slides and the
governments of both countries announced publicly that the slides were the result
of poor planning and over logging. the government then went in and took
care of all the problems. Slow maybe but no out of pocket expense to the
homeowners. In the U.S. the folks are being made to pay their own way
unless they sue and that can take years. There insurance companies are
telling them it is an act of God and isn't covered (Sonoma County and two other
counties in the Bay Area right now are facing that).
Lynda
----- Original Message -----From: SandraDodd@...Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2001 5:18 PMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Doom and gloom, was Re: vegetarianismIn a message dated 4/5/01 4:44:09 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:
." You sure
don't see that here after the mud slides that have wiped out whole towns!
After Mt. St. Helen's? (I don't guess the government would need to apologize
for that.)
What whole towns? I don't live around mudslide potential, so this is news to
me.
Sandra
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