Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] About those cats/animals
Collette Mattingly
A dear friend of mine lost a cat recently because
he wasn't in the house (her brother let him out.) He would always
come home with serious wounds from what we don't know. Now he's dead (hit by a
car) and she's broken-hearted. So is it the right thing to keep him
safely in the house with the other cats or let him do what he wanted
and get hurt and killed? (Kinda sounds a little like
parenting, but they are her babies after all.)-Collette
----- Original Message -----From: discovery6@...Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 9:30 AMSubject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] About those cats/animalsIn a message dated 4/1/2001 9:09:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
collettemattingly@... writes:
<< they should be kept inside for their own safety >>
Would that take away the cats right to be free to come and go as they please?
Cats like to be outdoors, we try to keep ours in but she (neutered) likes to
escape whenever she can. Do animals have rights? Humans have always had a
close tie to certain animals and it became "ownership of". Animals have been
used as working partners to people for a long time. We enjoyed watching the
Iditarod Race on our pc recently. We saw an episode on Animal Planet that
said S. Huskies love to pull, they live for it, it is play. So would it be
considered against the dogs rights to train and race them? Is it worse or
better than zoo captivity? They are confined I am sure when not working. I
have been reading a great book about the American Indians relationship to
animals. They are the first environmentalists I suppose but they ate meat and
used animals, but they also treated them with respect. Would that be
considered wrong now? It sure is complicated. And what if many people had a
chance to observe animals in the wild, would they then be in the wild. Also I
saw on Animal Planet that going to those open reserves is dangerous. To
people that is.
I guess I am just thinking out loud and was wondering what you all think.
Candy --who should probably stop watching Animal Planet
(they also said our cities are over run with rats. They said there is 6 rats
for every person in New York City. They are tough to kill too)
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In a message dated 4/1/2001 9:09:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
collettemattingly@... writes:
<< they should be kept inside for their own safety >>
Would that take away the cats right to be free to come and go as they please?
Cats like to be outdoors, we try to keep ours in but she (neutered) likes to
escape whenever she can. Do animals have rights? Humans have always had a
close tie to certain animals and it became "ownership of". Animals have been
used as working partners to people for a long time. We enjoyed watching the
Iditarod Race on our pc recently. We saw an episode on Animal Planet that
said S. Huskies love to pull, they live for it, it is play. So would it be
considered against the dogs rights to train and race them? Is it worse or
better than zoo captivity? They are confined I am sure when not working. I
have been reading a great book about the American Indians relationship to
animals. They are the first environmentalists I suppose but they ate meat and
used animals, but they also treated them with respect. Would that be
considered wrong now? It sure is complicated. And what if many people had a
chance to observe animals in the wild, would they then be in the wild. Also I
saw on Animal Planet that going to those open reserves is dangerous. To
people that is.
I guess I am just thinking out loud and was wondering what you all think.
Candy --who should probably stop watching Animal Planet
(they also said our cities are over run with rats. They said there is 6 rats
for every person in New York City. They are tough to kill too)
collettemattingly@... writes:
<< they should be kept inside for their own safety >>
Would that take away the cats right to be free to come and go as they please?
Cats like to be outdoors, we try to keep ours in but she (neutered) likes to
escape whenever she can. Do animals have rights? Humans have always had a
close tie to certain animals and it became "ownership of". Animals have been
used as working partners to people for a long time. We enjoyed watching the
Iditarod Race on our pc recently. We saw an episode on Animal Planet that
said S. Huskies love to pull, they live for it, it is play. So would it be
considered against the dogs rights to train and race them? Is it worse or
better than zoo captivity? They are confined I am sure when not working. I
have been reading a great book about the American Indians relationship to
animals. They are the first environmentalists I suppose but they ate meat and
used animals, but they also treated them with respect. Would that be
considered wrong now? It sure is complicated. And what if many people had a
chance to observe animals in the wild, would they then be in the wild. Also I
saw on Animal Planet that going to those open reserves is dangerous. To
people that is.
I guess I am just thinking out loud and was wondering what you all think.
Candy --who should probably stop watching Animal Planet
(they also said our cities are over run with rats. They said there is 6 rats
for every person in New York City. They are tough to kill too)
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/1/01 8:31:03 AM, discovery6@... writes:
<< << they should be kept inside for their own safety >>
Would that take away the cats right to be free to come and go as they please?
Why don't we?
Why do we let our kids get into cars, ride bikes, climb trees?
Something about their natural development and the world being a worthy risk.
If I started loving the presence of a cat so much that I totally deprived
that cat of walking on the earth outside, I'd worry about my priorities. But
then I've never lived in an apartment or on a super-busy street. I've always
been able to offer cats (usually stray) a warm place and some companionship,
food and water (water being the big thing in New Mexico where it's not
naturally occuring except in the river and some mountain lakes) in exchange
for some companionship, entertainment, and mouse control.
In New Mexico, and near my house even, there are mice which carry bubonic
plague. I'd rather have a series of short-lived cats than any short-lived
child. But in fact we've had most of our cats live with us to old age. A
couple have been hit by cars (of a dozen cats over the years), two died of
kitty leukemia, but the rest stayed. Four are here now. They have a door,
they're usually inside.
Sandra
<< << they should be kept inside for their own safety >>
Would that take away the cats right to be free to come and go as they please?
>>Kids would be safer if we kept them inside all the time too.
Why don't we?
Why do we let our kids get into cars, ride bikes, climb trees?
Something about their natural development and the world being a worthy risk.
If I started loving the presence of a cat so much that I totally deprived
that cat of walking on the earth outside, I'd worry about my priorities. But
then I've never lived in an apartment or on a super-busy street. I've always
been able to offer cats (usually stray) a warm place and some companionship,
food and water (water being the big thing in New Mexico where it's not
naturally occuring except in the river and some mountain lakes) in exchange
for some companionship, entertainment, and mouse control.
In New Mexico, and near my house even, there are mice which carry bubonic
plague. I'd rather have a series of short-lived cats than any short-lived
child. But in fact we've had most of our cats live with us to old age. A
couple have been hit by cars (of a dozen cats over the years), two died of
kitty leukemia, but the rest stayed. Four are here now. They have a door,
they're usually inside.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/1/01 9:06:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Kids would be safer if we kept them inside all the time too.
Why don't we? >>
That would depend on if you view children and animals as comparable in this
matter, I don't. However, for the sake of argument, if my cat can learn to
stay out of the street, let me know where she is going, avoid bullies AND not
bring fleas back into the house I might reconsider my position. Since she
has even less intelligence than my 3 yo who never goes outside without
supervision I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't keep her inside because
I can't bear the thought of anything happening to her. I don't think it's
right for the wildlife nor responsible, every vet I've spoken to has said
they are better off inside.
Kris
SandraDodd@... writes:
<< Kids would be safer if we kept them inside all the time too.
Why don't we? >>
That would depend on if you view children and animals as comparable in this
matter, I don't. However, for the sake of argument, if my cat can learn to
stay out of the street, let me know where she is going, avoid bullies AND not
bring fleas back into the house I might reconsider my position. Since she
has even less intelligence than my 3 yo who never goes outside without
supervision I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't keep her inside because
I can't bear the thought of anything happening to her. I don't think it's
right for the wildlife nor responsible, every vet I've spoken to has said
they are better off inside.
Kris
Lynda
Kinda like the helmets and seatbelt laws and all the other laws for our
"safety?"
We've had cats as long as I can remember, so that is over 50 years. One was
stolen (Mama Siamese and her whole litter of kittens), one was hit by a car
(deliberately, she was sitting well off the road waiting for the kids to get
home) but the rest have all lived long (19+ years) lives. Would they have
been "happy" if they were locked up indoors all the time? I don't think so
and don't think that would be any different than caging zoo animals. House
cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, looking
just about bored to death.
Lynda
"safety?"
We've had cats as long as I can remember, so that is over 50 years. One was
stolen (Mama Siamese and her whole litter of kittens), one was hit by a car
(deliberately, she was sitting well off the road waiting for the kids to get
home) but the rest have all lived long (19+ years) lives. Would they have
been "happy" if they were locked up indoors all the time? I don't think so
and don't think that would be any different than caging zoo animals. House
cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, looking
just about bored to death.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <discovery6@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 7:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] About those cats/animals
> In a message dated 4/1/2001 9:09:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> collettemattingly@... writes:
>
> << they should be kept inside for their own safety >>
>
> Would that take away the cats right to be free to come and go as they
please?
> Cats like to be outdoors, we try to keep ours in but she (neutered) likes
to
> escape whenever she can. Do animals have rights? Humans have always had a
> close tie to certain animals and it became "ownership of". Animals have
been
> used as working partners to people for a long time. We enjoyed watching
the
> Iditarod Race on our pc recently. We saw an episode on Animal Planet that
> said S. Huskies love to pull, they live for it, it is play. So would it
be
> considered against the dogs rights to train and race them? Is it worse or
> better than zoo captivity? They are confined I am sure when not working. I
> have been reading a great book about the American Indians relationship to
> animals. They are the first environmentalists I suppose but they ate meat
and
> used animals, but they also treated them with respect. Would that be
> considered wrong now? It sure is complicated. And what if many people had
a
> chance to observe animals in the wild, would they then be in the wild.
Also I
> saw on Animal Planet that going to those open reserves is dangerous. To
> people that is.
>
> I guess I am just thinking out loud and was wondering what you all think.
> Candy --who should probably stop watching Animal Planet
> (they also said our cities are over run with rats. They said there is 6
rats
> for every person in New York City. They are tough to kill too)
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
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>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Bonnie Painter
I don't agree with that. I have had cats all my life. When at home, my
mother allowed our cats to go outside and none of them lived past 5 yo. I
now have 6 cats who live in my house. The majority of the time they spend
interacting with us. I rarely see them look out the window and only one of
our cats has any desire to go outside. When he does, he sits on the porch
for three minutes and cries to come back in. He got out one night, several
years ago, and we didn't hear from him until 5:00 am the next morning when
he was at the door whining to get in. Since then, he won't venture off the
porch. Doesn't sound like he misses being outside.
Bonnie
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
mother allowed our cats to go outside and none of them lived past 5 yo. I
now have 6 cats who live in my house. The majority of the time they spend
interacting with us. I rarely see them look out the window and only one of
our cats has any desire to go outside. When he does, he sits on the porch
for three minutes and cries to come back in. He got out one night, several
years ago, and we didn't hear from him until 5:00 am the next morning when
he was at the door whining to get in. Since then, he won't venture off the
porch. Doesn't sound like he misses being outside.
Bonnie
>From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>_________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] About those cats/animals
>Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 06:53:11 -0700
>
>Kinda like the helmets and seatbelt laws and all the other laws for our
>"safety?"
>
>We've had cats as long as I can remember, so that is over 50 years. One
>was
>stolen (Mama Siamese and her whole litter of kittens), one was hit by a car
>(deliberately, she was sitting well off the road waiting for the kids to
>get
>home) but the rest have all lived long (19+ years) lives. Would they have
>been "happy" if they were locked up indoors all the time? I don't think so
>and don't think that would be any different than caging zoo animals. House
>cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, looking
>just about bored to death.
>
>Lynda
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <discovery6@...>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 7:30 AM
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] About those cats/animals
>
>
> > In a message dated 4/1/2001 9:09:52 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> > collettemattingly@... writes:
> >
> > << they should be kept inside for their own safety >>
> >
> > Would that take away the cats right to be free to come and go as they
>please?
> > Cats like to be outdoors, we try to keep ours in but she (neutered)
>likes
>to
> > escape whenever she can. Do animals have rights? Humans have always had
>a
> > close tie to certain animals and it became "ownership of". Animals have
>been
> > used as working partners to people for a long time. We enjoyed watching
>the
> > Iditarod Race on our pc recently. We saw an episode on Animal Planet
>that
> > said S. Huskies love to pull, they live for it, it is play. So would it
>be
> > considered against the dogs rights to train and race them? Is it worse
>or
> > better than zoo captivity? They are confined I am sure when not working.
>I
> > have been reading a great book about the American Indians relationship
>to
> > animals. They are the first environmentalists I suppose but they ate
>meat
>and
> > used animals, but they also treated them with respect. Would that be
> > considered wrong now? It sure is complicated. And what if many people
>had
>a
> > chance to observe animals in the wild, would they then be in the wild.
>Also I
> > saw on Animal Planet that going to those open reserves is dangerous. To
> > people that is.
> >
> > I guess I am just thinking out loud and was wondering what you all
>think.
> > Candy --who should probably stop watching Animal Planet
> > (they also said our cities are over run with rats. They said there is 6
>rats
> > for every person in New York City. They are tough to kill too)
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/2/01 5:43:45 AM, louisaem@... writes:
<< That would depend on if you view children and animals as comparable in
this
matter, I don't. However, for the sake of argument >>
It was a response to the assertion of safety.
<< That would depend on if you view children and animals as comparable in
this
matter, I don't. However, for the sake of argument >>
It was a response to the assertion of safety.
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/2/01 8:44:02 AM, lurine@... writes:
<< the rest have all lived long (19+ years) lives. Would they have
been "happy" if they were locked up indoors all the time? I don't think so
and don't think that would be any different than caging zoo animals. House
cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, looking
just about bored to death. >>
That's my feeling too. And they're LOTS smarter than three year old humans,
for the purposes of being out in the world. They're adults of their species
within a year, and are stronger than we are and faster than we are, they have
claws and teeth for a reason. (Besides tearing up couches sometimes.)
Sandra
<< the rest have all lived long (19+ years) lives. Would they have
been "happy" if they were locked up indoors all the time? I don't think so
and don't think that would be any different than caging zoo animals. House
cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, looking
just about bored to death. >>
That's my feeling too. And they're LOTS smarter than three year old humans,
for the purposes of being out in the world. They're adults of their species
within a year, and are stronger than we are and faster than we are, they have
claws and teeth for a reason. (Besides tearing up couches sometimes.)
Sandra
Samantha Stopple
>I agree BUT bird populations are severely diminisheed
> That's my feeling too. And they're LOTS smarter
> than three year old humans,
> for the purposes of being out in the world. They're
> adults of their species
> within a year, and are stronger than we are and
> faster than we are, they have
> claws and teeth for a reason. (Besides tearing up
> couches sometimes.)
where cats roam freely. So in some ways cats are
invasisve species like some weeds/plants that are not
native to an area: Starling birds push out other
birds, scotch broom and I think french broom can take
over hill sides in California, Japanese knotweed in
Washington, blackberries etc....
Samantha
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Lynda
Actually, I think the problem with cats is one of my pet peeves (no play on
words intended). Irresponsible pet ownership as in not neutering! The link
between loss of songbirds, etc. has been directly related to feral cat
populations which are directly linked to folks that aren't responsible and
shouldn't have any pets to begin with.
We have a real good program locally (and in several other CA counties) where
they go out and trap the feral cats and neuter them. The wild population is
deminishing relatively quickly.
Lynda
words intended). Irresponsible pet ownership as in not neutering! The link
between loss of songbirds, etc. has been directly related to feral cat
populations which are directly linked to folks that aren't responsible and
shouldn't have any pets to begin with.
We have a real good program locally (and in several other CA counties) where
they go out and trap the feral cats and neuter them. The wild population is
deminishing relatively quickly.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Samantha Stopple" <sammimag@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] About those cats/animals
> >
> > That's my feeling too. And they're LOTS smarter
> > than three year old humans,
> > for the purposes of being out in the world. They're
> > adults of their species
> > within a year, and are stronger than we are and
> > faster than we are, they have
> > claws and teeth for a reason. (Besides tearing up
> > couches sometimes.)
>
> I agree BUT bird populations are severely diminisheed
> where cats roam freely. So in some ways cats are
> invasisve species like some weeds/plants that are not
> native to an area: Starling birds push out other
> birds, scotch broom and I think french broom can take
> over hill sides in California, Japanese knotweed in
> Washington, blackberries etc....
>
> Samantha
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
>
>
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> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>
>
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>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/2/01 7:42:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:
<< House
cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, looking
just about bored to death. >>
Cats ALWAYS look bored! LOL I see the same look on the cats outside.
Instead of being in the window they sit in the driveway with the same "I'm
about the fall asleep" look on their face. The only time I see any action is
when they're fighting with cats who enter their space.
Kris
lurine@... writes:
<< House
cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, looking
just about bored to death. >>
Cats ALWAYS look bored! LOL I see the same look on the cats outside.
Instead of being in the window they sit in the driveway with the same "I'm
about the fall asleep" look on their face. The only time I see any action is
when they're fighting with cats who enter their space.
Kris
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/2/01 3:30:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:
<< Actually, I think the problem with cats is one of my pet peeves (no play on
words intended). Irresponsible pet ownership as in not neutering! The link
between loss of songbirds, etc. has been directly related to feral cat
populations which are directly linked to folks that aren't responsible and
shouldn't have any pets to begin with. >>
In complete agreement, we had our cat spayed even though she doesn't go
outside. We didn't want to take the chance AND she made us all miserable
when she was in heat
Kris
lurine@... writes:
<< Actually, I think the problem with cats is one of my pet peeves (no play on
words intended). Irresponsible pet ownership as in not neutering! The link
between loss of songbirds, etc. has been directly related to feral cat
populations which are directly linked to folks that aren't responsible and
shouldn't have any pets to begin with. >>
In complete agreement, we had our cat spayed even though she doesn't go
outside. We didn't want to take the chance AND she made us all miserable
when she was in heat
Kris
Samantha Stopple
The link
time observing the wildlife around her home said she
observed a huge drop in the bird population wwhen she
got a neighbor who let her cat outside. So I don't
think it just feral cat population although dealing
with it is one step.
Samantha
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
> between loss of songbirds, etc. has been directlyA e-list friend of mine who spends a good deal of her
> related to feral cat
> populations which are directly linked to folks that
> aren't responsible and
> shouldn't have any pets to begin with.
>
time observing the wildlife around her home said she
observed a huge drop in the bird population wwhen she
got a neighbor who let her cat outside. So I don't
think it just feral cat population although dealing
with it is one step.
Samantha
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
DiamondAir
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>so
>Would they have
> been "happy" if they were locked up indoors all the time? I don't think
> and don't think that would be any different than caging zoo animals.House
> cats generally spend lots of time looking out windows and, IMHO, lookingI agree Lynda. We've only had two cats in my life. The first lived 19 years
> just about bored to death.
and was an outdoor cat his entire life (earlier in our rural home, but later
on in my mom's apartment complex, a cabin in the woods, and a house). Our
2nd cat is now 8 and is an outdoor cat. We live on a cul-de-sac off of a
dead-end road so cars aren't really a factor (for him or for our kids, thank
God). I suppose he has to worry about predation some, but that's the normal
course of life. In any case, since he can't bear to spend a night outside
and away from our family bed, he's safe from the nocturnal predators at
least :-). He'd be miserable if we kept him locked up inside and he's always
free to choose to come home to us.
Our animals have very active social lives as there are 7 cats and 3 dogs
that are all outdoors in our cul-de-sac and they somehow all manage to get
along.
Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "I told you I was going to grow up to be a
weirdo"
and Asa (10/5/99) Who says "Fishy swim!" at the aquarium, her favorite place
in the world
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/4/01 6:51:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
bonniepainter@... writes:
<< I don't agree with that. I have had cats all my life. When at home, my
mother allowed our cats to go outside and none of them lived past 5 yo. I
now have 6 cats who live in my house. The majority of the time they spend
interacting with us. I rarely see them look out the window and only one of
our cats has any desire to go outside. When he does, he sits on the porch
for three minutes and cries to come back in. He got out one night, several
years ago, and we didn't hear from him until 5:00 am the next morning when
he was at the door whining to get in. Since then, he won't venture off the
porch. Doesn't sound like he misses being outside.
Bonnie >>
Sounds like our cat. She does sit in the window but it's because she likes
to watch the birds and act all brave by growling at other cats. One time she
got out and I found her cowering between the wall and a piece of wood trying
to hide from them.
Another time she got out on a day we were sitting outside. What did she do?
She came and sat by us. Now we open the window which is right on our porch,
she sits by us in the window and we're close enough to stick a finger through
a hole and give her a scratch.
The cat who lives next door considers the perimeter of our building part of
his territory and Cheety is half his size. None of the cats in the
neighborhood even DARE to come near this bully.
Kris
bonniepainter@... writes:
<< I don't agree with that. I have had cats all my life. When at home, my
mother allowed our cats to go outside and none of them lived past 5 yo. I
now have 6 cats who live in my house. The majority of the time they spend
interacting with us. I rarely see them look out the window and only one of
our cats has any desire to go outside. When he does, he sits on the porch
for three minutes and cries to come back in. He got out one night, several
years ago, and we didn't hear from him until 5:00 am the next morning when
he was at the door whining to get in. Since then, he won't venture off the
porch. Doesn't sound like he misses being outside.
Bonnie >>
Sounds like our cat. She does sit in the window but it's because she likes
to watch the birds and act all brave by growling at other cats. One time she
got out and I found her cowering between the wall and a piece of wood trying
to hide from them.
Another time she got out on a day we were sitting outside. What did she do?
She came and sat by us. Now we open the window which is right on our porch,
she sits by us in the window and we're close enough to stick a finger through
a hole and give her a scratch.
The cat who lives next door considers the perimeter of our building part of
his territory and Cheety is half his size. None of the cats in the
neighborhood even DARE to come near this bully.
Kris