Relationships
[email protected]
My father married my sister-in-law. Which now made my father my
brother in law, or was my sil now my step mother. Was my childrens
grandfather now their uncle, if my father was now my childrens uncle
was he now my brother, so were my sisters now neices? Was I my own
aunty!! OH no if my sil was my step mum, was my dh my uncle........
Marianne - who has now remarried, so is no longer her own aunty.
brother in law, or was my sil now my step mother. Was my childrens
grandfather now their uncle, if my father was now my childrens uncle
was he now my brother, so were my sisters now neices? Was I my own
aunty!! OH no if my sil was my step mum, was my dh my uncle........
Marianne - who has now remarried, so is no longer her own aunty.
Lynda
Hmmm, are we related <g> Step-daddy (he adopted me when I was about 4)
divorced mummy dearest. He married step-mother #1. Mummy dearest married
step-mother #1's ex-husband. My sister married step-mother #1 and
step-father #2's son which would make Step-daddy her father (bio for her)
and her fil. so my bil was also my step-brother. And that is the least
complicated my family gets <<<BEWG>>>
Lynda
divorced mummy dearest. He married step-mother #1. Mummy dearest married
step-mother #1's ex-husband. My sister married step-mother #1 and
step-father #2's son which would make Step-daddy her father (bio for her)
and her fil. so my bil was also my step-brother. And that is the least
complicated my family gets <<<BEWG>>>
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <tonitoni@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 11:34 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Relationships
> My father married my sister-in-law. Which now made my father my
> brother in law, or was my sil now my step mother. Was my childrens
> grandfather now their uncle, if my father was now my childrens uncle
> was he now my brother, so were my sisters now neices? Was I my own
> aunty!! OH no if my sil was my step mum, was my dh my uncle........
>
> Marianne - who has now remarried, so is no longer her own aunty.
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>
>
April Spitzer
This is sort of on topic-
Did anyone see that dateline NBC about the guy that never knew he was
adopted and then found out late in life that he was adopted and had 12
biological brothers and sisters. THEN he found out that one of his sisters
is an ex-girlfriend, and one of his brothers has been his best friend all of
his life, and his work-out partner for 20 years is also his brother.....
I thought it was pretty interesting
April
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Relationships
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:09:25 -0800
Hmmm, are we related <g> Step-daddy (he adopted me when I was about 4)
divorced mummy dearest. He married step-mother #1. Mummy dearest married
step-mother #1's ex-husband. My sister married step-mother #1 and
step-father #2's son which would make Step-daddy her father (bio for her)
and her fil. so my bil was also my step-brother. And that is the least
complicated my family gets <<<BEWG>>>
Lynda
Did anyone see that dateline NBC about the guy that never knew he was
adopted and then found out late in life that he was adopted and had 12
biological brothers and sisters. THEN he found out that one of his sisters
is an ex-girlfriend, and one of his brothers has been his best friend all of
his life, and his work-out partner for 20 years is also his brother.....
I thought it was pretty interesting
April
----Original Message Follows----
From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Relationships
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:09:25 -0800
Hmmm, are we related <g> Step-daddy (he adopted me when I was about 4)
divorced mummy dearest. He married step-mother #1. Mummy dearest married
step-mother #1's ex-husband. My sister married step-mother #1 and
step-father #2's son which would make Step-daddy her father (bio for her)
and her fil. so my bil was also my step-brother. And that is the least
complicated my family gets <<<BEWG>>>
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <tonitoni@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 11:34 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Relationships
> My father married my sister-in-law. Which now made my father my
> brother in law, or was my sil now my step mother. Was my childrens
> grandfather now their uncle, if my father was now my childrens uncle
> was he now my brother, so were my sisters now neices? Was I my own
> aunty!! OH no if my sil was my step mum, was my dh my uncle........
>
> Marianne - who has now remarried, so is no longer her own aunty.
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
janddplus5
I have had a lot of food for thought and a few days to think about
it. I believe what will help me and people like me is to think
about the fact that I am a human being with feelings. Take time to
consider what I consider acceptable treatment by others. Not only
my alcoholic dad and step-mother do this to me, there are others who
do it from a religious angle.
In other words...realizing that not all people are going to be sweet
and wonderful to me, but that there are some lines that are not to
be crossed. I do understand that heated debates and stuff like that
happens but the idea of "it's my way or no way" that my father and
his wife have is just not working. When do I get to have my very
own idea, feeling or opinion. Since when does only one person get
to decide "right from wrong" and why should it be okay for another
person to say "either you agree with me or I won't talk to you
anymore"?
I had to look at this issue keeping in mind that I am a living
example before my children. Keeping the peace is not such a bad
thing, but when personal morals and beliefs are set aside as if they
didn't exist to please another then keeping the peace is wrong.
Actually I am not sure it should be called peace keeping but rather
giving in to something that I don't agree with in order to keep in
their "good graces" so-to-speak.
I also had to acknowledge how hard this is on my husband as well.
He has no vested interest or love for these people only for me. So
he sits by and watches trying not to say anything and ever so
politely hating every minute of the visit. It is unfair to him as
well.
As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up with
this type of manipulation in their lives even really understand it.
In my case I want to see it each time it arises so that I can deal
with it better. I want to see it for what it is and and respond to
it in a way that shows my children that it is good to stand up for
what you believe in and not be persuaded by a manipulative
relationship.
Well it made sense in my head, we'll see if ya'll can make sense of
it as well.
Dana
it. I believe what will help me and people like me is to think
about the fact that I am a human being with feelings. Take time to
consider what I consider acceptable treatment by others. Not only
my alcoholic dad and step-mother do this to me, there are others who
do it from a religious angle.
In other words...realizing that not all people are going to be sweet
and wonderful to me, but that there are some lines that are not to
be crossed. I do understand that heated debates and stuff like that
happens but the idea of "it's my way or no way" that my father and
his wife have is just not working. When do I get to have my very
own idea, feeling or opinion. Since when does only one person get
to decide "right from wrong" and why should it be okay for another
person to say "either you agree with me or I won't talk to you
anymore"?
I had to look at this issue keeping in mind that I am a living
example before my children. Keeping the peace is not such a bad
thing, but when personal morals and beliefs are set aside as if they
didn't exist to please another then keeping the peace is wrong.
Actually I am not sure it should be called peace keeping but rather
giving in to something that I don't agree with in order to keep in
their "good graces" so-to-speak.
I also had to acknowledge how hard this is on my husband as well.
He has no vested interest or love for these people only for me. So
he sits by and watches trying not to say anything and ever so
politely hating every minute of the visit. It is unfair to him as
well.
As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up with
this type of manipulation in their lives even really understand it.
In my case I want to see it each time it arises so that I can deal
with it better. I want to see it for what it is and and respond to
it in a way that shows my children that it is good to stand up for
what you believe in and not be persuaded by a manipulative
relationship.
Well it made sense in my head, we'll see if ya'll can make sense of
it as well.
Dana
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/28/05 9:33:22 AM, janddplus5@... writes:
of your universe. <g> You see the world from your eyes.
Be careful on that second part though, because aren't you considering doing
that very thing? Maybe it's not so bad. "Either you be nice to me to the
point that *I* consider it "nice" or stay out of my universe"?
-=-As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up with
this type of manipulation in their lives even really understand it. -=-
I think sometimes those who grew up without it see it VERY clearly, while
those who grew up inundated with it don't know it from dirt or air.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Since when does only one person getEach person decides right from wrong in her own universe. You're the center
> to decide "right from wrong" and why should it be okay for another
> person to say "either you agree with me or I won't talk to you
> anymore"?-=-
>
of your universe. <g> You see the world from your eyes.
Be careful on that second part though, because aren't you considering doing
that very thing? Maybe it's not so bad. "Either you be nice to me to the
point that *I* consider it "nice" or stay out of my universe"?
-=-As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up with
this type of manipulation in their lives even really understand it. -=-
I think sometimes those who grew up without it see it VERY clearly, while
those who grew up inundated with it don't know it from dirt or air.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
janddplus5
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
to make me think<G>
This has been so good for me and I hope that if there are others
dealing with this kind of stuff it is helpful for them as well.
I think that you are right though cause I know in other situations
the person on the outside does seem to have a clearer view than a
person who is all involved in it. Lots of times others will see
things that you never even considered. Even when it something that
I am doing and didn't realize. Like just now!!!LOL
As for the second part what I meant by that was why do some people
feel it is okay to say something has to be all or nothing. But by
the same token I was/am willing to withdraw as well rather than be
manipulated into going along with something I don't agree with. I
just hate that some people can't agree to disagree and still have a
relationship, but instead will call it quits and pout about it. (for
years, as with my family)
So I guess you are right maybe the whole world should be nice to me
and do it all my way or get out of my universe <vbg>.
>another
>
> In a message dated 11/28/05 9:33:22 AM, janddplus5@b... writes:
>
>
> > -=-Since when does only one person get
> > to decide "right from wrong" and why should it be okay for
> > person to say "either you agree with me or I won't talk to youthe center
> > anymore"?-=-
> >
>
> Each person decides right from wrong in her own universe. You're
> of your universe. <g> You see the world from your eyes.considering doing
>
> Be careful on that second part though, because aren't you
> that very thing? Maybe it's not so bad. "Either you be niceto me to the
> point that *I* consider it "nice" or stay out of my universe"?with
>
> -=-As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up
> this type of manipulation in their lives even really understandit. -=-
>clearly, while
> I think sometimes those who grew up without it see it VERY
> those who grew up inundated with it don't know it from dirt or air.****Now how did I know you would you would reply with something else
>
> Sandra
to make me think<G>
This has been so good for me and I hope that if there are others
dealing with this kind of stuff it is helpful for them as well.
I think that you are right though cause I know in other situations
the person on the outside does seem to have a clearer view than a
person who is all involved in it. Lots of times others will see
things that you never even considered. Even when it something that
I am doing and didn't realize. Like just now!!!LOL
As for the second part what I meant by that was why do some people
feel it is okay to say something has to be all or nothing. But by
the same token I was/am willing to withdraw as well rather than be
manipulated into going along with something I don't agree with. I
just hate that some people can't agree to disagree and still have a
relationship, but instead will call it quits and pout about it. (for
years, as with my family)
So I guess you are right maybe the whole world should be nice to me
and do it all my way or get out of my universe <vbg>.
Ann
Dana,
I have stayed away from posting on this issue because I know that what I'm about to say will probably sound really harsh to some people, but from all your posts maybe this could be helpful in your case.
My husband has a really toxic sister, meaning that her presence poisons the atmosphere. I'll spare you the smarmy details, but suffice it to say that as I read your post I could say that sounds familiar... so the situation was similar.
We pretty much cut off all contact. We didn't announce this, we didn't explain, we just chose to protect our kids from her. When she called and invited we were not available. We certainly never called her. She did send some angry emails about this to my husband who just said sorry your offended, but we just don't want to come over. No explanations, no fight, no fuss. We never picked up her calls (I love caller ID). He eventually stopped replying to the email because it wasn't helpful.
We see her once in a while in large group family gatherings (not even once a year), but then lots of people are around and it's easy to be friendly and avoid her all at the same time. She is SO manipulative and nasty that my brother-in-law made the same decision for his family a couple of years later, but only after he let her spoil two more Christmas' and a summer camping trip for his kids.
Nobody should get the right to make your kids unhappy. Biology is not a good enough reason to have a relationship. They are your kids, You get to be in charge and set the boundaries that you need to set to protect your kids. Your step-mother and fathers' feelings about those boundaries don't matter. If you decide to see them some, maybe you set the boundary that if they want to see you THEY must come to your house but they have to sleep at a hotel. Then they can decide if they want to do that or not. Maybe the boundary is that you only meet for dinner in a public place...whatever, if they don't like the boundary that you set to protect your kids, that is their problem. You owe them no explanations. You probably do owe your kids the reassurance that you are either cutting off the relationship or setting some boundaries and you will not be allowing those people to hurt them anymore.
I know this is hard. I also know that these kind of relationships ruin holidays. You and your family deserve the chance to enjoy them in peace.
Ann
janddplus5 <janddplus5@...> wrote:
I have had a lot of food for thought and a few days to think about
it. I believe what will help me and people like me is to think
about the fact that I am a human being with feelings. Take time to
consider what I consider acceptable treatment by others. Not only
my alcoholic dad and step-mother do this to me, there are others who
do it from a religious angle.
In other words...realizing that not all people are going to be sweet
and wonderful to me, but that there are some lines that are not to
be crossed. I do understand that heated debates and stuff like that
happens but the idea of "it's my way or no way" that my father and
his wife have is just not working. When do I get to have my very
own idea, feeling or opinion. Since when does only one person get
to decide "right from wrong" and why should it be okay for another
person to say "either you agree with me or I won't talk to you
anymore"?
I had to look at this issue keeping in mind that I am a living
example before my children. Keeping the peace is not such a bad
thing, but when personal morals and beliefs are set aside as if they
didn't exist to please another then keeping the peace is wrong.
Actually I am not sure it should be called peace keeping but rather
giving in to something that I don't agree with in order to keep in
their "good graces" so-to-speak.
I also had to acknowledge how hard this is on my husband as well.
He has no vested interest or love for these people only for me. So
he sits by and watches trying not to say anything and ever so
politely hating every minute of the visit. It is unfair to him as
well.
As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up with
this type of manipulation in their lives even really understand it.
In my case I want to see it each time it arises so that I can deal
with it better. I want to see it for what it is and and respond to
it in a way that shows my children that it is good to stand up for
what you believe in and not be persuaded by a manipulative
relationship.
Well it made sense in my head, we'll see if ya'll can make sense of
it as well.
Dana
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have stayed away from posting on this issue because I know that what I'm about to say will probably sound really harsh to some people, but from all your posts maybe this could be helpful in your case.
My husband has a really toxic sister, meaning that her presence poisons the atmosphere. I'll spare you the smarmy details, but suffice it to say that as I read your post I could say that sounds familiar... so the situation was similar.
We pretty much cut off all contact. We didn't announce this, we didn't explain, we just chose to protect our kids from her. When she called and invited we were not available. We certainly never called her. She did send some angry emails about this to my husband who just said sorry your offended, but we just don't want to come over. No explanations, no fight, no fuss. We never picked up her calls (I love caller ID). He eventually stopped replying to the email because it wasn't helpful.
We see her once in a while in large group family gatherings (not even once a year), but then lots of people are around and it's easy to be friendly and avoid her all at the same time. She is SO manipulative and nasty that my brother-in-law made the same decision for his family a couple of years later, but only after he let her spoil two more Christmas' and a summer camping trip for his kids.
Nobody should get the right to make your kids unhappy. Biology is not a good enough reason to have a relationship. They are your kids, You get to be in charge and set the boundaries that you need to set to protect your kids. Your step-mother and fathers' feelings about those boundaries don't matter. If you decide to see them some, maybe you set the boundary that if they want to see you THEY must come to your house but they have to sleep at a hotel. Then they can decide if they want to do that or not. Maybe the boundary is that you only meet for dinner in a public place...whatever, if they don't like the boundary that you set to protect your kids, that is their problem. You owe them no explanations. You probably do owe your kids the reassurance that you are either cutting off the relationship or setting some boundaries and you will not be allowing those people to hurt them anymore.
I know this is hard. I also know that these kind of relationships ruin holidays. You and your family deserve the chance to enjoy them in peace.
Ann
janddplus5 <janddplus5@...> wrote:
I have had a lot of food for thought and a few days to think about
it. I believe what will help me and people like me is to think
about the fact that I am a human being with feelings. Take time to
consider what I consider acceptable treatment by others. Not only
my alcoholic dad and step-mother do this to me, there are others who
do it from a religious angle.
In other words...realizing that not all people are going to be sweet
and wonderful to me, but that there are some lines that are not to
be crossed. I do understand that heated debates and stuff like that
happens but the idea of "it's my way or no way" that my father and
his wife have is just not working. When do I get to have my very
own idea, feeling or opinion. Since when does only one person get
to decide "right from wrong" and why should it be okay for another
person to say "either you agree with me or I won't talk to you
anymore"?
I had to look at this issue keeping in mind that I am a living
example before my children. Keeping the peace is not such a bad
thing, but when personal morals and beliefs are set aside as if they
didn't exist to please another then keeping the peace is wrong.
Actually I am not sure it should be called peace keeping but rather
giving in to something that I don't agree with in order to keep in
their "good graces" so-to-speak.
I also had to acknowledge how hard this is on my husband as well.
He has no vested interest or love for these people only for me. So
he sits by and watches trying not to say anything and ever so
politely hating every minute of the visit. It is unfair to him as
well.
As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up with
this type of manipulation in their lives even really understand it.
In my case I want to see it each time it arises so that I can deal
with it better. I want to see it for what it is and and respond to
it in a way that shows my children that it is good to stand up for
what you believe in and not be persuaded by a manipulative
relationship.
Well it made sense in my head, we'll see if ya'll can make sense of
it as well.
Dana
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
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Graduate school education High school education Home school education Middle school education New york school education School education in california
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "UnschoolingDiscussion" on the web.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> -=-I think that you are right though cause I know in other situationsI didn't see it when I was in the middle of it. In my late 20s I was BIG in
> the person on the outside does seem to have a clearer view than a
> person who is all involved in it. Lots of times others will see
> things that you never even considered. Even when it something that
> I am doing and didn't realize. -=-
>
the middle of a bunch of codependency issues with my mom and stepbrother, and
I risked and gambled my marriage on taking care of my brother who was a lying
thief of a poor neglected kid, but he was also 13, 14, 15 when I had custody
and was involved in dangerous illegalities. Still, being with us was better
for him than being with my mom, it seemed to me. But his being with us was
better for US. And had Keith not seen more clearly what I was blind to, I
might have left with Justin, or run Keith off, but Keith (being wise and
wonderful and not from that kind of family) helped me clarify, and then two other
friends with alcoholic parents who were ahead of me on the awareness curve helped
me get help.
I went to Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings for four years. When I
started, I wasn't pregnant; my brother was in a residential treatment home for
troubled teens, and I had this very badly broken leg in a very large cast. When
the meeting lost its nice meeting place and fizzled out, I had two children
and was seeing the world from a whole new angle.
The first time I was aware that I was really making progress was when Kirby
was a baby and I was giving him a bath, in a baby-tub, on the kitchen table,
and after I got him out and dressed and came to empty that tub of water, I let
slip and it splashed and spilled all over the floor.
So if Kirby was that baby-tub age, I had been going to meetings a little over
a year or a year and a half.
Ordinarily I would have had a wave of self-pity and fury, I would have yelled
and cried, I would have felt the world hated me and I was stupid and now we'd
be late and that would be TERRIBLE and nothing would ever be the same.
That was a feeling I knew well, through my 20's.
But even as I saw that water falling, I thought nothing big, just thought
"huh. Well, I needed to mop the floor anyway." I think I threw some dirty
bathtowels on it and cleaned it up later. I don't remember that so much as I
remember being surprised and impressed by having a calm reaction to it all,
and going ahead and being sweet with Kirby and getting wherever it was we were
going to go on time.
The fit and the crying and the feeling sorry for myself always took more time
and energy than the clean-ups from normal accidents ever did. And once I
got calmer and clearer, I had fewer thoughtless, careless accidents too. There
was rage inside me just waiting for an excuse to go off.
A few years later I saw it in my sister when she told me something was the
last straw. It was something her kid's teacher had done. The last straw.
"Everything's the last straw for you," I told her. I told her she only
calmed down enough that she had room for one more straw, and the next thing was
the last straw, and if she wanted to be a good mom to her three kids she ought
to figure out how to unload at least half of that straw. (Didn't put it in a
letter--it was a phone call. <bwg>)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Su Penn
This is a lesson I've had to learn in my life, too. When I was a kid
and made a mistake, like spilling a glass of pop, it was proof that I
was all sorts of bad things. And I was never taught to clean up my
messes, so I felt helpless to fix a problem I'd created. I can
remember sitting there, feeling small, not knowing what to do, being
screamed at for not cleaning up when I had no idea what to do...ewww.
One day a few months ago, my 4yo son went to the bathroom. He pulled
down his pants but forgot to pull down his underwear, and they got
soaked, and he made a puddle on the floor to boot. He called out to
me, "Mama, I made a little mistake. I'm going to need some clean
underwear and some rags."
Bringing him the underwear and rags, and helping him clean up, I felt
like I had made the game-winning touchdown in the last two seconds of
the playoffs. Through my behavior to him his whole life, I have
wanted him to learn that making a mistake is no big deal; that almost
all mistakes can be corrected; that he has the know-how to correct
them, and that we will help him as well; that he will not lose our
affection or respect by making mistakes. Woo-hoo!
After we'd gotten everything cleaned up, he said, "Next time, I'll
make sure to remember to take my underwear off, too," and ran off to
play.
Sometimes now if I make a mistake, he will tell me, "It's OK, Mama.
It's no big deal! I'll help you fix it." It brings tears to my eyes
the way we're allies instead of adversaries.
Su
and made a mistake, like spilling a glass of pop, it was proof that I
was all sorts of bad things. And I was never taught to clean up my
messes, so I felt helpless to fix a problem I'd created. I can
remember sitting there, feeling small, not knowing what to do, being
screamed at for not cleaning up when I had no idea what to do...ewww.
One day a few months ago, my 4yo son went to the bathroom. He pulled
down his pants but forgot to pull down his underwear, and they got
soaked, and he made a puddle on the floor to boot. He called out to
me, "Mama, I made a little mistake. I'm going to need some clean
underwear and some rags."
Bringing him the underwear and rags, and helping him clean up, I felt
like I had made the game-winning touchdown in the last two seconds of
the playoffs. Through my behavior to him his whole life, I have
wanted him to learn that making a mistake is no big deal; that almost
all mistakes can be corrected; that he has the know-how to correct
them, and that we will help him as well; that he will not lose our
affection or respect by making mistakes. Woo-hoo!
After we'd gotten everything cleaned up, he said, "Next time, I'll
make sure to remember to take my underwear off, too," and ran off to
play.
Sometimes now if I make a mistake, he will tell me, "It's OK, Mama.
It's no big deal! I'll help you fix it." It brings tears to my eyes
the way we're allies instead of adversaries.
Su
On Nov 28, 2005, at 12:52 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:
> The first time I was aware that I was really making progress was
> when Kirby
> was a baby and I was giving him a bath, in a baby-tub, on the
> kitchen table,
> and after I got him out and dressed and came to empty that tub of
> water, I let
> slip and it splashed and spilled all over the floor.
>
snip
> Ordinarily I would have had a wave of self-pity and fury, I would
> have yelled
> and cried, I would have felt the world hated me and I was stupid
> and now we'd
> be late and that would be TERRIBLE and nothing would ever be the same.
>
snip
> But even as I saw that water falling, I thought nothing big, just
> thought
> "huh. Well, I needed to mop the floor anyway." I think I
> threw some dirty
> bathtowels on it and cleaned it up later. I don't remember that
> so much as I
> remember being surprised and impressed by having a calm reaction to
> it all,
> and going ahead and being sweet with Kirby and getting wherever it
> was we were
> going to go on time.
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/28/05 11:06:10 AM, ann_mv05@... writes:
this:
-=-She is SO manipulative and nasty that my brother-in-law made the same
decision for his family a couple of years later, but only after he let her spoil
two more Christmas' and a summer camping trip for his kids.-=-
Information is really helpful. People can't change if people just say
"we're not available" instead of "We don't want to because you're mean to the kids"
or "We don't want to because you get too drunk" or whatever.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She did send some angry emails about this to my husband who just said sorryMaybe an explanation would have helped. Maybe she would have changed before
> your offended, but we just don't want to come over. No explanations, no
> fight, no fuss.
>
this:
-=-She is SO manipulative and nasty that my brother-in-law made the same
decision for his family a couple of years later, but only after he let her spoil
two more Christmas' and a summer camping trip for his kids.-=-
Information is really helpful. People can't change if people just say
"we're not available" instead of "We don't want to because you're mean to the kids"
or "We don't want to because you get too drunk" or whatever.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
I want to add our own experience briefly. The mother to my nieces is not a nice person. When I have my niece over, she calls and demands that she be brought back. It is an abusive situation in my opinion (not the kind you report, just the kind that could stand a lot of improvement from an unschooling perspective).
I changed my phone number over the weekend so she couldn't call my anymore. And I've already told my brother that I will not talk to her, or deal with her, and neither will my kids. I will only deal with him. (They aren't together).
Kristen
I changed my phone number over the weekend so she couldn't call my anymore. And I've already told my brother that I will not talk to her, or deal with her, and neither will my kids. I will only deal with him. (They aren't together).
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Ann
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Relationships
Dana,
I have stayed away from posting on this issue because I know that what I'm about to say will probably sound really harsh to some people, but from all your posts maybe this could be helpful in your case.
My husband has a really toxic sister, meaning that her presence poisons the atmosphere. I'll spare you the smarmy details, but suffice it to say that as I read your post I could say that sounds familiar... so the situation was similar.
We pretty much cut off all contact. We didn't announce this, we didn't explain, we just chose to protect our kids from her. When she called and invited we were not available. We certainly never called her. She did send some angry emails about this to my husband who just said sorry your offended, but we just don't want to come over. No explanations, no fight, no fuss. We never picked up her calls (I love caller ID). He eventually stopped replying to the email because it wasn't helpful.
We see her once in a while in large group family gatherings (not even once a year), but then lots of people are around and it's easy to be friendly and avoid her all at the same time. She is SO manipulative and nasty that my brother-in-law made the same decision for his family a couple of years later, but only after he let her spoil two more Christmas' and a summer camping trip for his kids.
Nobody should get the right to make your kids unhappy. Biology is not a good enough reason to have a relationship. They are your kids, You get to be in charge and set the boundaries that you need to set to protect your kids. Your step-mother and fathers' feelings about those boundaries don't matter. If you decide to see them some, maybe you set the boundary that if they want to see you THEY must come to your house but they have to sleep at a hotel. Then they can decide if they want to do that or not. Maybe the boundary is that you only meet for dinner in a public place...whatever, if they don't like the boundary that you set to protect your kids, that is their problem. You owe them no explanations. You probably do owe your kids the reassurance that you are either cutting off the relationship or setting some boundaries and you will not be allowing those people to hurt them anymore.
I know this is hard. I also know that these kind of relationships ruin holidays. You and your family deserve the chance to enjoy them in peace.
Ann
janddplus5 <janddplus5@...> wrote:
I have had a lot of food for thought and a few days to think about
it. I believe what will help me and people like me is to think
about the fact that I am a human being with feelings. Take time to
consider what I consider acceptable treatment by others. Not only
my alcoholic dad and step-mother do this to me, there are others who
do it from a religious angle.
In other words...realizing that not all people are going to be sweet
and wonderful to me, but that there are some lines that are not to
be crossed. I do understand that heated debates and stuff like that
happens but the idea of "it's my way or no way" that my father and
his wife have is just not working. When do I get to have my very
own idea, feeling or opinion. Since when does only one person get
to decide "right from wrong" and why should it be okay for another
person to say "either you agree with me or I won't talk to you
anymore"?
I had to look at this issue keeping in mind that I am a living
example before my children. Keeping the peace is not such a bad
thing, but when personal morals and beliefs are set aside as if they
didn't exist to please another then keeping the peace is wrong.
Actually I am not sure it should be called peace keeping but rather
giving in to something that I don't agree with in order to keep in
their "good graces" so-to-speak.
I also had to acknowledge how hard this is on my husband as well.
He has no vested interest or love for these people only for me. So
he sits by and watches trying not to say anything and ever so
politely hating every minute of the visit. It is unfair to him as
well.
As I am typing this I am wondering if people who didn't grow up with
this type of manipulation in their lives even really understand it.
In my case I want to see it each time it arises so that I can deal
with it better. I want to see it for what it is and and respond to
it in a way that shows my children that it is good to stand up for
what you believe in and not be persuaded by a manipulative
relationship.
Well it made sense in my head, we'll see if ya'll can make sense of
it as well.
Dana
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Ann
Oh, she definately knew WHY. Even in her nastly emails she would say stuff like Just because I....., or I know I said ....... She would minimize the evil stuff she did and make it seem like we were over-protective parents. Her perception of our parenting is of no interest to us, still I supppose she could have chosen to change. I just did not see it to be my job to help her change. She is a grown up, she had a mother and I'm not her:0) ...just kidding. But I will easily admit that we didn't try to fix her or help her see it from our point of view or do anything to facillitate her changing. We didn't want to. It wasn't worth it to my husband. It wasn't worth it to me either. I believe she would have only sucked up precious family time in some way. We don't have any regrets. I do understand that this would not be the right approach for many people, but it brought a lot of peace to us.
I realize in discussing this that any relationship that interefered with my kids' peace and joy wold be a relationship I would view as not being worth my time or theirs (meaning my kids). I try to surround myself both in person and online only with those who embrace or at least tolerate our unschooling philosophy. Perhaps I'll someday get to a place where opposition wouldn't bother me so much.
Ann
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/28/05 11:06:10 AM, ann_mv05@... writes:
this:
-=-She is SO manipulative and nasty that my brother-in-law made the same
decision for his family a couple of years later, but only after he let her spoil
two more Christmas' and a summer camping trip for his kids.-=-
Information is really helpful. People can't change if people just say
"we're not available" instead of "We don't want to because you're mean to the kids"
or "We don't want to because you get too drunk" or whatever.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I realize in discussing this that any relationship that interefered with my kids' peace and joy wold be a relationship I would view as not being worth my time or theirs (meaning my kids). I try to surround myself both in person and online only with those who embrace or at least tolerate our unschooling philosophy. Perhaps I'll someday get to a place where opposition wouldn't bother me so much.
Ann
SandraDodd@... wrote:
In a message dated 11/28/05 11:06:10 AM, ann_mv05@... writes:
> She did send some angry emails about this to my husband who just said sorryMaybe an explanation would have helped. Maybe she would have changed before
> your offended, but we just don't want to come over. No explanations, no
> fight, no fuss.
>
this:
-=-She is SO manipulative and nasty that my brother-in-law made the same
decision for his family a couple of years later, but only after he let her spoil
two more Christmas' and a summer camping trip for his kids.-=-
Information is really helpful. People can't change if people just say
"we're not available" instead of "We don't want to because you're mean to the kids"
or "We don't want to because you get too drunk" or whatever.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NANCY OWENS
Ann <ann_mv05@...> wrote:
*** My husband has a really toxic sister, meaning that her presence poisons the atmosphere. I'll spare you the smarmy details, but suffice it to say that as I read your post I could say that sounds familiar... so the situation was similar.
We pretty much cut off all contact. We didn't announce this, we didn't explain, we just chose to protect our kids from her. When she called and invited we were not available. We certainly never called her. She did send some angry emails about this to my husband who just said sorry your offended, but we just don't want to come over. No explanations, no fight, no fuss.
<snip>
I know this is hard. I also know that these kind of relationships ruin holidays. You and your family deserve the chance to enjoy them in peace.
Ann*****
Darin and I have done the same thing with his mom. After the kids spent a few weeks with her last Easter time, we have cut off all contact with her. I, like you could go on and on about her nasty ways. Her treatment of Darin growing up, her treatment of our kids and Darin's sister's children, lets just say it has always sucked. And she doesn't have an addiction to help explain her toxic ways, she is just a nasty person. (not to say that an addiction is an excuse)
We, rather Darin has not yet explained to his mom why he has decided not to talk to her any more. He also has received the 'Why don't you... I don't understand... I've always been there for you... You are being ungrateful... I know its your wife who has put you up to this...' emails. But I want to say this about how you say you all have handled your situation AND how Darin has handled his situation.
It is my opinion that at some point in time the person in question needs to be told, somehow (letter, phone call, face to face, doesn't matter), the reasons behind the cut-off. The telling doesn't need to be nice or kind, but neither does it need to be mean and nasty. It can be short and to the point, mincing no words, and then nothing more need be said. In our case I don't feel it is my place to tell my MIL all the whys. It wouldn't be good coming from me anyway. In your case the telling should probably come from your husband. Remember this is just my opinion, but I do think this needs to be done. How else can the person change? Not to say that they will have the light-bulb-over-the-head breakthrough, but who's to say they won't? And I'm also not saying that said person should be told because they deserve to be told either.
In our case, Darin has, in the past month or so, voiced his need/want to tell his mom why he has cut her off, but has said that he doesn't think he can fully explain. He also thinks he won't be as articulate as he knows/thinks (?) he needs to be. I've only told Darin my opinion once, left it at that, and that I will support his decisions. I think his current need comes from the fact that we have moved so far away, that by not talking to his mom he is also not talking to siblings (although that one is probably not as important, since the siblings have never been close), and mostly, because we are going to have another baby in the spring. (And there are tons of issues with that! Enough for two posts at least! <bwg>) I told him that when he is ready we can make a list together.
Maybe he will say something like; Mom, this is why I don't talk to you anymore, and follow that statement with a bullet point list of the reasons. And then explain until things change the current situation will remain unchanged. I don't know, I probably won't be as articulate as the situation demands either, but together we should be able to write a letter that gets the point across.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*** My husband has a really toxic sister, meaning that her presence poisons the atmosphere. I'll spare you the smarmy details, but suffice it to say that as I read your post I could say that sounds familiar... so the situation was similar.
We pretty much cut off all contact. We didn't announce this, we didn't explain, we just chose to protect our kids from her. When she called and invited we were not available. We certainly never called her. She did send some angry emails about this to my husband who just said sorry your offended, but we just don't want to come over. No explanations, no fight, no fuss.
<snip>
I know this is hard. I also know that these kind of relationships ruin holidays. You and your family deserve the chance to enjoy them in peace.
Ann*****
Darin and I have done the same thing with his mom. After the kids spent a few weeks with her last Easter time, we have cut off all contact with her. I, like you could go on and on about her nasty ways. Her treatment of Darin growing up, her treatment of our kids and Darin's sister's children, lets just say it has always sucked. And she doesn't have an addiction to help explain her toxic ways, she is just a nasty person. (not to say that an addiction is an excuse)
We, rather Darin has not yet explained to his mom why he has decided not to talk to her any more. He also has received the 'Why don't you... I don't understand... I've always been there for you... You are being ungrateful... I know its your wife who has put you up to this...' emails. But I want to say this about how you say you all have handled your situation AND how Darin has handled his situation.
It is my opinion that at some point in time the person in question needs to be told, somehow (letter, phone call, face to face, doesn't matter), the reasons behind the cut-off. The telling doesn't need to be nice or kind, but neither does it need to be mean and nasty. It can be short and to the point, mincing no words, and then nothing more need be said. In our case I don't feel it is my place to tell my MIL all the whys. It wouldn't be good coming from me anyway. In your case the telling should probably come from your husband. Remember this is just my opinion, but I do think this needs to be done. How else can the person change? Not to say that they will have the light-bulb-over-the-head breakthrough, but who's to say they won't? And I'm also not saying that said person should be told because they deserve to be told either.
In our case, Darin has, in the past month or so, voiced his need/want to tell his mom why he has cut her off, but has said that he doesn't think he can fully explain. He also thinks he won't be as articulate as he knows/thinks (?) he needs to be. I've only told Darin my opinion once, left it at that, and that I will support his decisions. I think his current need comes from the fact that we have moved so far away, that by not talking to his mom he is also not talking to siblings (although that one is probably not as important, since the siblings have never been close), and mostly, because we are going to have another baby in the spring. (And there are tons of issues with that! Enough for two posts at least! <bwg>) I told him that when he is ready we can make a list together.
Maybe he will say something like; Mom, this is why I don't talk to you anymore, and follow that statement with a bullet point list of the reasons. And then explain until things change the current situation will remain unchanged. I don't know, I probably won't be as articulate as the situation demands either, but together we should be able to write a letter that gets the point across.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
janddplus5
I want to thank each and every one of you who replied to my posts.
I have been given a lot of things to think about and consider. I am
going to take a few days and figure out what exactly I need to do to
make my life and the lives of my children and hubby as happy and
protected as I can. I am gonna focus on how to confront my family
and let them know why I am making these choices while causing the
least amount of anxiety for all parties. I am not out to hurt or
punish them, but I am out to protect my children from having to deal
with a lousy life like I did.
There is no reason in the world for this to go on for another
generation. If I don't put a stop to it maybe it never will. I do
realize that I can't be responsible for how the information is
excepted but I am responsible for how I convey it, and for this I
need a little more time to ponder the issues from every angle I can
(even make an attempt to see it from an outsiders point of
view...wish me luck) and then get on with it so as to not prolong
it.
I am truly grateful for the wisdom and concern of the members of
this list. Each day that I grow toward being a stronger and better
person and parent, is one more day that my children get to see that
example and hopefully emulate it. I want to be someone that my
children look up to and respect as a person, that will never happen
without this growth in a positive direction.
Thanks again ya'll!
Dana
I have been given a lot of things to think about and consider. I am
going to take a few days and figure out what exactly I need to do to
make my life and the lives of my children and hubby as happy and
protected as I can. I am gonna focus on how to confront my family
and let them know why I am making these choices while causing the
least amount of anxiety for all parties. I am not out to hurt or
punish them, but I am out to protect my children from having to deal
with a lousy life like I did.
There is no reason in the world for this to go on for another
generation. If I don't put a stop to it maybe it never will. I do
realize that I can't be responsible for how the information is
excepted but I am responsible for how I convey it, and for this I
need a little more time to ponder the issues from every angle I can
(even make an attempt to see it from an outsiders point of
view...wish me luck) and then get on with it so as to not prolong
it.
I am truly grateful for the wisdom and concern of the members of
this list. Each day that I grow toward being a stronger and better
person and parent, is one more day that my children get to see that
example and hopefully emulate it. I want to be someone that my
children look up to and respect as a person, that will never happen
without this growth in a positive direction.
Thanks again ya'll!
Dana
[email protected]
> -=-I am gonna focus on how to confront my familyYou could just say "We need a break " instead of "never again."
> and let them know why I am making these choices while causing the
> least amount of anxiety for all parties. -=-
>
I know it helps the other direction, to say "We're going to try unschooling
and see how it goes," so you could do the same kind of "We need to see how this
goes" too, maybe. Trial separation, as it were....
Good luck with your considerations, Dana! Remember to beathe and smile.
Look at the sky sometimes, and smell your kids' heads sometimes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
janddplus5
I want to thank each and every one of you who replied to my posts.
I have been given a lot of things to think about and consider. I am
going to take a few days and figure out what exactly I need to do to
make my life and the lives of my children and hubby as happy and
protected as I can. I am gonna focus on how to confront my family
and let them know why I am making these choices while causing the
least amount of anxiety for all parties. I am not out to hurt or
punish them, but I am out to protect my children from having to deal
with a lousy life like I did.
There is no reason in the world for this to go on for another
generation. If I don't put a stop to it maybe it never will. I do
realize that I can't be responsible for how the information is
excepted but I am responsible for how I convey it, and for this I
need a little more time to ponder the issues from every angle I can
(even make an attempt to see it from an outsiders point of
view...wish me luck) and then get on with it so as to not prolong
it.
I am truly grateful for the wisdom and concern of the members of
this list. Each day that I grow toward being a stronger and better
person and parent, is one more day that my children get to see that
example and hopefully emulate it. I want to be someone that my
children look up to and respect as a person, that will never happen
without this growth in a positive direction.
Thanks again ya'll!
Dana
I have been given a lot of things to think about and consider. I am
going to take a few days and figure out what exactly I need to do to
make my life and the lives of my children and hubby as happy and
protected as I can. I am gonna focus on how to confront my family
and let them know why I am making these choices while causing the
least amount of anxiety for all parties. I am not out to hurt or
punish them, but I am out to protect my children from having to deal
with a lousy life like I did.
There is no reason in the world for this to go on for another
generation. If I don't put a stop to it maybe it never will. I do
realize that I can't be responsible for how the information is
excepted but I am responsible for how I convey it, and for this I
need a little more time to ponder the issues from every angle I can
(even make an attempt to see it from an outsiders point of
view...wish me luck) and then get on with it so as to not prolong
it.
I am truly grateful for the wisdom and concern of the members of
this list. Each day that I grow toward being a stronger and better
person and parent, is one more day that my children get to see that
example and hopefully emulate it. I want to be someone that my
children look up to and respect as a person, that will never happen
without this growth in a positive direction.
Thanks again ya'll!
Dana
k
Ah nice people... well, certain people are nice but they at times
behave
extremely unnicely, let's just say. I have cut off contact for long
periods but only in recent times gone back to say why, and the nice
people *have* become much more respectful than they were in the past.
They decided it's important to them to keep on seeing my family enough
to change some of their ways, and are much more careful in their
remarks
and behavior. I finally realized I can request what I *do* want
instead
of silently be appalled and do nothing except withdraw from them when
they behave in ways I don't want them to, which I've done over and over
again for years. By the way, my finally talking has proven to be a
good
example for one of my sisters who has followed in my footsteps so to
speak, and is beginning to see some of the respect she has wanted from
that same exact quarter. ;)
People can be very nicely manipulative and in total denial of it.
Kathe
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behave
extremely unnicely, let's just say. I have cut off contact for long
periods but only in recent times gone back to say why, and the nice
people *have* become much more respectful than they were in the past.
They decided it's important to them to keep on seeing my family enough
to change some of their ways, and are much more careful in their
remarks
and behavior. I finally realized I can request what I *do* want
instead
of silently be appalled and do nothing except withdraw from them when
they behave in ways I don't want them to, which I've done over and over
again for years. By the way, my finally talking has proven to be a
good
example for one of my sisters who has followed in my footsteps so to
speak, and is beginning to see some of the respect she has wanted from
that same exact quarter. ;)
People can be very nicely manipulative and in total denial of it.
Kathe
>The mother to my nieces is not a nice person.__________________________________________________
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Kelly Courtney
Dear Kathe,
You and I sound like the SAME person! For many years I, too, have been enduring some troubled times with my sister - who is 3 years younger than me (I'm 37). Can you and I share our stories so that (hopefully) I can come to a better realization about things (I've been so torn/exhausted with all this lately). I'm sorry if you are going thru what I am these days (I've finally put things to an end with her and, unfortuneately, her family/kids). There has been some physical and mental abuse involved here on my sister's side. Just need some encouragement from someone who is going thru the same as I (and maybe I can tell you of some things that a caring counselor by email advised me of, too). Please email me if you'd like to chat at: homebodees@...
Thanks ;o)
KC
----- Originl Message -----
From: k
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Relationships
Ah nice people... well, certain people are nice but they at times
behave
extremely unnicely, let's just say. I have cut off contact for long
periods but only in recent times gone back to say why, and the nice
people *have* become much more respectful than they were in the past.
They decided it's important to them to keep on seeing my family enough
to change some of their ways, and are much more careful in their
remarks
and behavior. I finally realized I can request what I *do* want
instead
of silently be appalled and do nothing except withdraw from them when
they behave in ways I don't want them to, which I've done over and over
again for years. By the way, my finally talking has proven to be a
good
example for one of my sisters who has followed in my footsteps so to
speak, and is beginning to see some of the respect she has wanted from
that same exact quarter. ;)
People can be very nicely manipulative and in total denial of it.
Kathe
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You and I sound like the SAME person! For many years I, too, have been enduring some troubled times with my sister - who is 3 years younger than me (I'm 37). Can you and I share our stories so that (hopefully) I can come to a better realization about things (I've been so torn/exhausted with all this lately). I'm sorry if you are going thru what I am these days (I've finally put things to an end with her and, unfortuneately, her family/kids). There has been some physical and mental abuse involved here on my sister's side. Just need some encouragement from someone who is going thru the same as I (and maybe I can tell you of some things that a caring counselor by email advised me of, too). Please email me if you'd like to chat at: homebodees@...
Thanks ;o)
KC
----- Originl Message -----
From: k
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 8:12 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Relationships
Ah nice people... well, certain people are nice but they at times
behave
extremely unnicely, let's just say. I have cut off contact for long
periods but only in recent times gone back to say why, and the nice
people *have* become much more respectful than they were in the past.
They decided it's important to them to keep on seeing my family enough
to change some of their ways, and are much more careful in their
remarks
and behavior. I finally realized I can request what I *do* want
instead
of silently be appalled and do nothing except withdraw from them when
they behave in ways I don't want them to, which I've done over and over
again for years. By the way, my finally talking has proven to be a
good
example for one of my sisters who has followed in my footsteps so to
speak, and is beginning to see some of the respect she has wanted from
that same exact quarter. ;)
People can be very nicely manipulative and in total denial of it.
Kathe
>The mother to my nieces is not a nice person.__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
SPONSORED LINKS Graduate school education High school education Home school education
Middle school education New york school education School education in california
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
a.. Visit your group "UnschoolingDiscussion" on the web.
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]