[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/01 2:09:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< Everyone has their top few priorities in life, and honesty is my big #1.
>>

I believe deeply in honesty, too, but I do think there are times when lies
are appropriate. I've tried to teach my children to exercise good judgment
about such things, and to recognize that choosing to lie is a serious choice.
I don't make distinctions like white lies. A lie is the telling of an untruth
or the omission of the truth as a means of misleading someone.

Yes, there are ways to get away from the gun without lying, and I would like
them to do that if possible, but sometimes kids don't let each other have an
easy out, and a gun in a kid's hands can be a matter of life and death. I
don't want them to get caught up in a debate over who's a chicken when
someone is twirling a lethal weapon around.

If a rapist had just assaulted me and asked me if there were any other
females in the house, I wouldn't feel moved to reveal my daughter's presence.
It's an extreme example, but it's the kind I use with my kids because I don't
want them to think everyone and every situation is deserving of the truth.
We've talked over lots of examples and discussed how you can be tactful
without lying when the situation warrants it, as well.


candice
~~~~~~
Más vale morir parado
que vivir de rodillas.

Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)

To help the kids out why not just change the exiting statement to "I got to get home now my mom is expecting me."  That would give them a gracefull way out & wouldn't be a lie.  Being a former cop myself, I hate the fact we even have to be concerned about such things but that is the world we live in.  I also have a problem with the weight that peer pressure can play in permanent injury & death situations.  Talking with your kids & role playing ideas will help them prepare for such situations.  I did this as a cop & found many times it cut my reaction time down when I found myself in some particular situation since I'd already thought it through & come up with a plan of action.

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/6/01 5:04:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, samiot@...
writes:

<< To help the kids out why not just change the exiting statement to "I got to
get home now my mom is expecting me." That would give them a gracefull way
out & wouldn't be a lie.>>

Actually we picked out the verbiage together. As we role play she finds the
words that would help her to take the necessary action. I leave most of it
to their discretion. She knows she won't be in trouble and hopefully the
role playing and ethics discussion helps her to not waste valuable time.

<<Being a former cop myself, I hate the fact we even have to be concerned
about such things but that is the world we live in. I also have a problem
with the weight that peer pressure can play in permanent injury & death
situations. Talking with your kids & role playing ideas will help them
prepare for such situations.>>

Kids need this for those moments that take them off guard and require quick
action. As much as I would like to think she'll never be faced with this
event, I know it can happen. A good friend's daughter was shot and killed by
a friend while playing at their house after school, she was 13. I cared for
her when she was little, perhaps it made the possibility of this kind of
event seem more plausible.

Kris

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/7/01 2:00:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< f a child is taught that there are times when lying is acceptable, the
parents should not be surprised when the children then lie to the parents.
Moments of crisis and rare events will happen between teens and parents.
>>


I'm willing to take that risk. I firmly believe I can help my child develop
the conscience and good judgment to know that is not the kind of lie to which
I am referring. There are distinct differences. But, no, I will not be
surprised to discover my
children aren't perfect.

While I don't specifically teach them to lie to get away from guns, I do
teach them that if a lie is necessary to escape a clear and present danger,
so be it.

candice
~~~~~~
Más vale morir parado
que vivir de rodillas.

Bobbie

Very good point. I liked the rapist example.
I guess what I emphasize to my kids is that we don't
lie to people we love, *especially* to people we love.
and sure, I teach them we try to love everyone, but
somehow sometimes there does come into play some
exceptions. Like you said, sometimes it is neccesary.
If homeschooling DID become illegal and someone
questioned them I would tell them to say they were in
school or something I'm sure. Like someone said
earlier when talking about religion, if the kids are
asked about being christian or what not the answer
depends on who is asking. I don't consider that lying.
Nor do i consider not volunteering information (ex:
"we don't go to school") when it isn't neccesary to be
lying. And I DEFINITELY don't consider it wrong when
trying to get out of doing something wrong.
I am not sure exactly how we explain those or what the
exact "rules" of when it's okay are, but we all seem
to be on the same wavelength about it. (my kids and me
I mean) hm. thanks for making me think about it more.
-Bobbie
--- czuniga145@... wrote:

> Yes, there are ways to get away from the gun without
> lying, and I would like
> them to do that if possible, but sometimes kids
> don't let each other have an
> easy out, and a gun in a kid's hands can be a matter
> of life and death. I
> don't want them to get caught up in a debate over
> who's a chicken when
> someone is twirling a lethal weapon around.
>
> If a rapist had just assaulted me and asked me if
> there were any other
> females in the house, I wouldn't feel moved to
> reveal my daughter's presence.
> It's an extreme example, but it's the kind I use
> with my kids because I don't
> want them to think everyone and every situation is
> deserving of the truth.
> We've talked over lots of examples and discussed how
> you can be tactful
> without lying when the situation warrants it, as
> well.
>
>
> candice
> ~~~~~~
> M�s vale morir parado
> que vivir de rodillas.
>
>


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Bobbie

was it really hard emotionally, being a cop?
that may sound like a completely stupid question, but
I am just curious. It's another diversity on this
board.
I don't think (no, I KNOW) I couldn't handle
emotionally being a cop or a nurse and other such high
stress jobs involving not being able to help as many
as I would want to (being ALL). I'm too extreme I
guess. I would feel very fulfilled in the good I did
do, but I'm interested in how you seperate it in your
mind and don't get depressed about all the things you
CAN'T do, being only one person.
-Bobbie

--- "Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)" <samiot@...>
wrote:
> To help the kids out why not just change the exiting
> statement to "I got to
> get home now my mom is expecting me." That would
> give them a gracefull way
> out & wouldn't be a lie. Being a former cop myself,
> I hate the fact we even
> have to be concerned about such things but that is
> the world we live in. I
> also have a problem with the weight that peer
> pressure can play in permanent
> injury & death situations. Talking with your kids &
> role playing ideas will
> help them prepare for such situations. I did this
> as a cop & found many
> times it cut my reaction time down when I found
> myself in some particular
> situation since I'd already thought it through &
> come up with a plan of
> action.
>


__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/13/01 1:27:58 PM, insomniaaks@... writes:

<< Like someone said
earlier when talking about religion, if the kids are
asked about being christian or what not the answer
depends on who is asking. I don't consider that lying. >>

That was me, and the depends who's asking had to do with their position
(religiously) relative to you. If they're Moslem, I'm Christian. If
they're Christian, I'm agnostic. It's because the first question is "Of what
ethnicity and culture are you?" and the other is "Are you saved?" (Or "where
do you go to church?")

If someone else who live in Albuquerque asks me where I live and I say "New
Mexico," it's not dishonest, but it's not useful and it's not friendly. Same
thing if someone from Vermont asks me and I say "on Tahiti Ct., near Juan
Tabo and Candelaria."

Sandra

Bobbie

gotcha. I stand corrected.
I shouldn't have used that as an example.
I suck at explaining myself sometimes.<g>

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 2/13/01 1:27:58 PM,
> insomniaaks@... writes:
>
> << Like someone said
> earlier when talking about religion, if the kids are
> asked about being christian or what not the answer
> depends on who is asking. I don't consider that
> lying. >>
>
> That was me, and the depends who's asking had to do
> with their position
> (religiously) relative to you. If they're Moslem,
> I'm Christian. If
> they're Christian, I'm agnostic. It's because the
> first question is "Of what
> ethnicity and culture are you?" and the other is
> "Are you saved?" (Or "where
> do you go to church?")
>
> If someone else who live in Albuquerque asks me
> where I live and I say "New
> Mexico," it's not dishonest, but it's not useful and
> it's not friendly. Same
> thing if someone from Vermont asks me and I say "on
> Tahiti Ct., near Juan
> Tabo and Candelaria."
>
> Sandra
>
>


__________________________________________________
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a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

Lynda

I worked at a county hospital in the radiology department for 1 year, 2
weeks and 3 days. Then I exploded and left! I couldn't handle one more
child abuse case, it was too much!!! We would get all the kids in to have
full body scans if their was any question of prior abuse. It just drove me
crazy after awhile because the parents would come in and give these really
lame excuses most of which included "she/he fell [fill in the blank]" I
mean, finger prints on little arms don't come from stairs nor do cigerette
burns or needle marks or pins under little fingernails or hypothermia!

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobbie" <insomniaaks@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] guns & lies


> was it really hard emotionally, being a cop?
> that may sound like a completely stupid question, but
> I am just curious. It's another diversity on this
> board.
> I don't think (no, I KNOW) I couldn't handle
> emotionally being a cop or a nurse and other such high
> stress jobs involving not being able to help as many
> as I would want to (being ALL). I'm too extreme I
> guess. I would feel very fulfilled in the good I did
> do, but I'm interested in how you seperate it in your
> mind and don't get depressed about all the things you
> CAN'T do, being only one person.
> -Bobbie
>
> --- "Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)" <samiot@...>
> wrote:
> > To help the kids out why not just change the exiting
> > statement to "I got to
> > get home now my mom is expecting me." That would
> > give them a gracefull way
> > out & wouldn't be a lie. Being a former cop myself,
> > I hate the fact we even
> > have to be concerned about such things but that is
> > the world we live in. I
> > also have a problem with the weight that peer
> > pressure can play in permanent
> > injury & death situations. Talking with your kids &
> > role playing ideas will
> > help them prepare for such situations. I did this
> > as a cop & found many
> > times it cut my reaction time down when I found
> > myself in some particular
> > situation since I'd already thought it through &
> > come up with a plan of
> > action.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

Bobbie

oh jeez, see, I can hardly take READING that whole
msg. I tried to make myself stop but to no avail. I
would like to do something (career wise, I mean, if I
were to have a career other than mom/teacher
person...hypothetically) that helped people and for
awhile when I was helping my dad with his insulin
every day and taking care of him after his stroke I
thought something in the way of the medical area would
be cool. It's fascinating. But I don't like doctors
(no offense to any doctors here) and I don't like
hearing things like that about children. And seeing
people die. A physical therapist would be cool maybe,
but still bring me to tears each day most likely, but
hopefully in a good, touching way. A midwife or a
doula I decided would be the best for someone like me
who can't stomach the death part of life, but prefers
the usually joyous part...being birth.
But someone has to have those hard to deal with jobs
and I'm glad that there are people out there that can
stomach it. I can't believe you lasted 1 year, 2 weeks
and 3 dayz. You must be pretty strong and probably in
some small way even made a difference in some people's
lives.
-Bobbie
--- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> I worked at a county hospital in the radiology
> department for 1 year, 2
> weeks and 3 days. Then I exploded and left! I
> couldn't handle one more
> child abuse case, it was too much!!! We would get
> all the kids in to have
> full body scans if their was any question of prior
> abuse. It just drove me
> crazy after awhile because the parents would come in
> and give these really
> lame excuses most of which included "she/he fell
> [fill in the blank]" I
> mean, finger prints on little arms don't come from
> stairs nor do cigerette
> burns or needle marks or pins under little
> fingernails or hypothermia!
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bobbie" <insomniaaks@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 12:29 PM
> Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] guns & lies
>
>
> > was it really hard emotionally, being a cop?
> > that may sound like a completely stupid question,
> but
> > I am just curious. It's another diversity on this
> > board.
> > I don't think (no, I KNOW) I couldn't handle
> > emotionally being a cop or a nurse and other such
> high
> > stress jobs involving not being able to help as
> many
> > as I would want to (being ALL). I'm too extreme I
> > guess. I would feel very fulfilled in the good I
> did
> > do, but I'm interested in how you seperate it in
> your
> > mind and don't get depressed about all the things
> you
> > CAN'T do, being only one person.
> > -Bobbie
> >
> > --- "Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)"
> <samiot@...>
> > wrote:
> > > To help the kids out why not just change the
> exiting
> > > statement to "I got to
> > > get home now my mom is expecting me." That
> would
> > > give them a gracefull way
> > > out & wouldn't be a lie. Being a former cop
> myself,
> > > I hate the fact we even
> > > have to be concerned about such things but that
> is
> > > the world we live in. I
> > > also have a problem with the weight that peer
> > > pressure can play in permanent
> > > injury & death situations. Talking with your
> kids &
> > > role playing ideas will
> > > help them prepare for such situations. I did
> this
> > > as a cop & found many
> > > times it cut my reaction time down when I found
> > > myself in some particular
> > > situation since I'd already thought it through &
> > > come up with a plan of
> > > action.
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> - only $35
> > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter
> and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe:
> [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> >
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
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Lynda

There are lots of "good" nursing jobs out there such as inhome support for
folks that go home after surgery or for premmies. And a lot of the inhome
jobs for the elderly just insure that they don't end up institutionalized in
a convo "factory."

The part that was worth the job that I had was knowing that at least in one
case we managed (at the risk of our own jobs) to keep one abuse case in the
hospital for 3 months. I really feel it was the happiest 3 months of the
little guy's life.

The really rough part is that you end up wanting to take them all home with
you %-{

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bobbie" <insomniaaks@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] nurses, etc...


> oh jeez, see, I can hardly take READING that whole
> msg. I tried to make myself stop but to no avail. I
> would like to do something (career wise, I mean, if I
> were to have a career other than mom/teacher
> person...hypothetically) that helped people and for
> awhile when I was helping my dad with his insulin
> every day and taking care of him after his stroke I
> thought something in the way of the medical area would
> be cool. It's fascinating. But I don't like doctors
> (no offense to any doctors here) and I don't like
> hearing things like that about children. And seeing
> people die. A physical therapist would be cool maybe,
> but still bring me to tears each day most likely, but
> hopefully in a good, touching way. A midwife or a
> doula I decided would be the best for someone like me
> who can't stomach the death part of life, but prefers
> the usually joyous part...being birth.
> But someone has to have those hard to deal with jobs
> and I'm glad that there are people out there that can
> stomach it. I can't believe you lasted 1 year, 2 weeks
> and 3 dayz. You must be pretty strong and probably in
> some small way even made a difference in some people's
> lives.
> -Bobbie
> --- Lynda <lurine@...> wrote:
> > I worked at a county hospital in the radiology
> > department for 1 year, 2
> > weeks and 3 days. Then I exploded and left! I
> > couldn't handle one more
> > child abuse case, it was too much!!! We would get
> > all the kids in to have
> > full body scans if their was any question of prior
> > abuse. It just drove me
> > crazy after awhile because the parents would come in
> > and give these really
> > lame excuses most of which included "she/he fell
> > [fill in the blank]" I
> > mean, finger prints on little arms don't come from
> > stairs nor do cigerette
> > burns or needle marks or pins under little
> > fingernails or hypothermia!
> >
> > Lynda
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bobbie" <insomniaaks@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 12:29 PM
> > Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] guns & lies
> >
> >
> > > was it really hard emotionally, being a cop?
> > > that may sound like a completely stupid question,
> > but
> > > I am just curious. It's another diversity on this
> > > board.
> > > I don't think (no, I KNOW) I couldn't handle
> > > emotionally being a cop or a nurse and other such
> > high
> > > stress jobs involving not being able to help as
> > many
> > > as I would want to (being ALL). I'm too extreme I
> > > guess. I would feel very fulfilled in the good I
> > did
> > > do, but I'm interested in how you seperate it in
> > your
> > > mind and don't get depressed about all the things
> > you
> > > CAN'T do, being only one person.
> > > -Bobbie
> > >
> > > --- "Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)"
> > <samiot@...>
> > > wrote:
> > > > To help the kids out why not just change the
> > exiting
> > > > statement to "I got to
> > > > get home now my mom is expecting me." That
> > would
> > > > give them a gracefull way
> > > > out & wouldn't be a lie. Being a former cop
> > myself,
> > > > I hate the fact we even
> > > > have to be concerned about such things but that
> > is
> > > > the world we live in. I
> > > > also have a problem with the weight that peer
> > > > pressure can play in permanent
> > > > injury & death situations. Talking with your
> > kids &
> > > > role playing ideas will
> > > > help them prepare for such situations. I did
> > this
> > > > as a cop & found many
> > > > times it cut my reaction time down when I found
> > > > myself in some particular
> > > > situation since I'd already thought it through &
> > > > come up with a plan of
> > > > action.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> > - only $35
> > > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter
> > and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > Addresses:
> > > Post message: [email protected]
> > > Unsubscribe:
> > [email protected]
> > > List owner: [email protected]
> > > List settings page:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>