list attitudes
Cindy L.
I feel frustrated that my efforts to take a step out and feel for people like
Laura and to comment on our being a welcoming as well as an informational
list have been met with rather uncaring replies by a couple of people. Why
do things have to be said so harshly. I see a lot of compassionate,
insightful responding going on, but the other stuff is ruining it for me. I
don't understand why we can't show a little diplomacy. After all, we are all
supposed to have a few things in common here.
When i try to speak up for fostering a positive attitude on the list and i
only get negative feedback, I find it very discouraging. I have never
encountered such rudeness tolerated so well on a list.
cathI've been thinking about this subject as well. I'm on several lists, and they all have their own personality or attitude. Personally I try to keep to the rules of each list, written or unwritten. For example, one list I'm on does effusive welcomes for everyone who writes an intro, sometimes 15 or more replies. Then you get 15 thank yous, needless to say it's an active list, generating up to 300 posts a day! Then I'm on a list where they threaten to kick you off if you write anything not strictly on-topic, and warm personal posts are most discouraged to keep the list to a manageable size, they generate 25-40 posts a day. Another list runs hot & cold, just depending on the mood of the core group, they often totally ignore newcomers and long time members alike, but they can also be incredibly supportive, and people are very candid, often writing heartfelt , and very personal posts of a spiritual nature. Anyway you get my point.I don't have any answers, I just think it depends on what is going on, on any given day, and that can be unfortunate for a new member who signs on , on an 'off' day. Then again the list with 300 posts a day has people complaining and signing off all the time due to being overwhelmed with mail. Personally there are times I am just unable to post, sometimes for weeks at a time, otherwise I try to reply when I have something that I 'have' to say, or else if I think I can be of help to someone. I try not to say something if it's already been said, especially if it's been said so much better than I could have put it, which is often on this list! Other times I send a personal reply when I just want to say thanks, or me too! But like I said, all too often I just don't have the chance to always respond, even when I am in total agreement or really moved, then I just send out a silent reply & hope others will have a chance to put words in writing- this is obviously an imperfect system.And I have seen lists where people can be frighteningly rude, my personal feeling is that it's better not to engage such people, but I do agree there are times when it is right to come to another's defense, at times it's difficult to do this without fueling the flames. Ultimately it's up to any and all of us to make this list what we want it to be. If we want it to be more welcoming than that is something than can be done on an individual basis, and maybe the feeling will spread. We all look for different things from these lists, and we all have unique qualities to offer, anyway once again today, that's my opinion.Offered with respect and warm wishes to all,Cindy L.
[email protected]
***Oh, BTW, I'm on two other lists that have 500+ members and neither of them have
even a fraction of the flaming and attacking going on here. It's very possible
when everyone works together as a team and helps each other.
Myranda***
Myranda,
I'm wondering exactly what posts you considered flames or attacks. Could you give me a quote or an example? Mabye I'm just dense, but I'm guessing what you perceive as an "attack" others perceive as honest and to the point. You also mentioned something about being disappointed about namecalling. Who's calling anyone names? You don't need to answer that, but if you think about it, much of this namecalling, attacking, twisting words, etc, might just be in your own perception. If that's so, then you might want to look more closely at your reactions to these so called "attacking" posts to find out what exactly is bugging you so much.
I know from personal experience that having a major paradigm shift can be painful and cause much defensiveness.
Patti
even a fraction of the flaming and attacking going on here. It's very possible
when everyone works together as a team and helps each other.
Myranda***
Myranda,
I'm wondering exactly what posts you considered flames or attacks. Could you give me a quote or an example? Mabye I'm just dense, but I'm guessing what you perceive as an "attack" others perceive as honest and to the point. You also mentioned something about being disappointed about namecalling. Who's calling anyone names? You don't need to answer that, but if you think about it, much of this namecalling, attacking, twisting words, etc, might just be in your own perception. If that's so, then you might want to look more closely at your reactions to these so called "attacking" posts to find out what exactly is bugging you so much.
I know from personal experience that having a major paradigm shift can be painful and cause much defensiveness.
Patti
Myranda
From: patti.schmidt2@...
Myranda,
I'm wondering exactly what posts you considered flames or attacks.
** Flaming is when the poster is criticized instead of the topic. Since spanking is so popular right now, take it as an example. People posting about it have been called sick, dumbasses, abusers, and more. That's flaming. On most lists, that would get you banned. Attacking is all of the "how dare you", "you're wrong", "you are harming your kids", "you're abusing your kids", etc comments. Also grounds for banning on almost all lists.
Could you give me a quote or an example?
** Sorry, I don't keep posts so I can't quote but I'm sure you can recall some with the same and like examples I listed above.
Mabye I'm just dense, but I'm guessing what you perceive as an "attack" others perceive as honest and to the point.
** No, I've been on busy mailing lists for about 5 years now, and have started several myself. Those are generally accpeted and known mailing-list definitions of the words flaming and attacking. Being honest and to the point would include "spanking is harmful and this is why..." while attacking/flaming includes "spanking is wrong, you are wrong, you are an abuser, you're sick".
You also mentioned something about being disappointed about namecalling. Who's calling anyone names? You don't need to answer that, but if you think about it, much of this namecalling, attacking, twisting words, etc, might just be in your own perception.
** Again, no. For one, I have had many, many offlist e-mails assuring me this is not in my imagination. Moderator Joyce even noticed and commented onlist on the twisting and misquoting that was going on. For another, I have seen this same spanking issue come up on many different lists, and it has been gotten thru, the same points gotten across, without all of the flaming going on. It's a huge, noticable difference that no one could miss. If you guys are used to this list, and this list only, you probably don't notice the difference as much.
Take the recent post from the "spanker". Several people boo'd her and several flamed her. WHY didn't anyone post links showing the harm it causes children or ask her if she would consider trying another method if she had help and support to do so? Like what has been mentioned time and time again, even if the original poster isn't interested or doesn't respond, someone may very well come along and read the posts later and it may help them. Or it may help people lurking. Instead, the flames and attacks are all the people will see. How sad is that?
If that's so, then you might want to look more closely at your reactions to these so called "attacking" posts to find out what exactly is bugging you so much.
** I know exactly what bugs me. It is that on a list that is so about treating children respectfully, a lot of people are really close-minded about giving adults respect. It is very hard for me to believe that adults who cannot keep tempers and a respectful tone on their computers while getting their point across, can turn to their families and show a respectful attitude towards them when something comes up that they do not agree with. Personalities come through online, sometimes more than people realize.
I know from personal experience that having a major paradigm shift can be painful and cause much defensiveness.
Patti
** Then you should be able to understand that people who are going through or starting to go through a paradigm shift need help and support from friends, not attacks and flames from enemies.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda,
I'm wondering exactly what posts you considered flames or attacks.
** Flaming is when the poster is criticized instead of the topic. Since spanking is so popular right now, take it as an example. People posting about it have been called sick, dumbasses, abusers, and more. That's flaming. On most lists, that would get you banned. Attacking is all of the "how dare you", "you're wrong", "you are harming your kids", "you're abusing your kids", etc comments. Also grounds for banning on almost all lists.
Could you give me a quote or an example?
** Sorry, I don't keep posts so I can't quote but I'm sure you can recall some with the same and like examples I listed above.
Mabye I'm just dense, but I'm guessing what you perceive as an "attack" others perceive as honest and to the point.
** No, I've been on busy mailing lists for about 5 years now, and have started several myself. Those are generally accpeted and known mailing-list definitions of the words flaming and attacking. Being honest and to the point would include "spanking is harmful and this is why..." while attacking/flaming includes "spanking is wrong, you are wrong, you are an abuser, you're sick".
You also mentioned something about being disappointed about namecalling. Who's calling anyone names? You don't need to answer that, but if you think about it, much of this namecalling, attacking, twisting words, etc, might just be in your own perception.
** Again, no. For one, I have had many, many offlist e-mails assuring me this is not in my imagination. Moderator Joyce even noticed and commented onlist on the twisting and misquoting that was going on. For another, I have seen this same spanking issue come up on many different lists, and it has been gotten thru, the same points gotten across, without all of the flaming going on. It's a huge, noticable difference that no one could miss. If you guys are used to this list, and this list only, you probably don't notice the difference as much.
Take the recent post from the "spanker". Several people boo'd her and several flamed her. WHY didn't anyone post links showing the harm it causes children or ask her if she would consider trying another method if she had help and support to do so? Like what has been mentioned time and time again, even if the original poster isn't interested or doesn't respond, someone may very well come along and read the posts later and it may help them. Or it may help people lurking. Instead, the flames and attacks are all the people will see. How sad is that?
If that's so, then you might want to look more closely at your reactions to these so called "attacking" posts to find out what exactly is bugging you so much.
** I know exactly what bugs me. It is that on a list that is so about treating children respectfully, a lot of people are really close-minded about giving adults respect. It is very hard for me to believe that adults who cannot keep tempers and a respectful tone on their computers while getting their point across, can turn to their families and show a respectful attitude towards them when something comes up that they do not agree with. Personalities come through online, sometimes more than people realize.
I know from personal experience that having a major paradigm shift can be painful and cause much defensiveness.
Patti
** Then you should be able to understand that people who are going through or starting to go through a paradigm shift need help and support from friends, not attacks and flames from enemies.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 7:44:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
myrandab@... writes:
I'm not afraid to use it. If I don't like what I am reading I just delete it
and go on my merry way, I guess I just don't let things bother me, everyone
is can have an opinion I just don't have to agree or listen to it if it
offends me.
Hugs
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
myrandab@... writes:
> Then you should be able to understand that people who are going through orAs I do agree with this I must also say I know where the delete button is and
> starting to go through a paradigm shift need help and support from friends,
> not attacks and flames from enemies.
I'm not afraid to use it. If I don't like what I am reading I just delete it
and go on my merry way, I guess I just don't let things bother me, everyone
is can have an opinion I just don't have to agree or listen to it if it
offends me.
Hugs
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
***Being honest and to the point
would include "spanking is harmful and this is why..." while attacking/flaming
includes "spanking is wrong, you are wrong, you are an abuser, you're sick"***
Hmmm. I don't see much difference between "spanking is harmful" and "spanking is wrong." And I haven't noticed the "you are sick" or "you are an abuser" comments. I think, though, that attacking the idea of spanking, which many here have certainly done (me included) can easily be construed by a spanker (or someone who supports spankers) as an attack on their person.
***Take the recent post from the "spanker". Several people boo'd her and several
flamed her. WHY didn't anyone post links showing the harm it causes children or
ask her if she would consider trying another method if she had help and support
to do so?***
I recommended a specific book and I pointed out that there were other resources for Christian parents who didn't want to spank if they were open to finding them.
I think it's probably unrealistic for anyone to post on a list like this (where respect for children is at the core of everything discussed) about spanking being a great thing and *not* expect some flames in response. It's kind of like joining a vegan list and then cheerfully posting about how you roast a lamb on a spit every night.
*** I know exactly what bugs me. It is that on a list that is so about
treating children respectfully, a lot of people are really close-minded about
giving adults respect.***
The fact is that I don't respect everyone equally even though it seems the politically correct thing to do. I can respect that some people have more limited experience than others, or that some people believe their religion tells them to hurt their children regularly, that there are many variables that go into the choices we make as parents, and even that most of us do the best we can most of the time with the tools we have at the moment. That's not the same thing as saying "all ideas are equally wonderful, hitting your kids is just fine if that's your choice, whatever works for your family" etc. I just don't buy that.
***It is very hard for me to believe that adults who cannot
keep tempers and a respectful tone on their computers while getting their point
across, can turn to their families and show a respectful attitude towards them
when something comes up that they do not agree with.***
I personally prefer authentic communication, even when emotions run high. I definitely prefer it over polite posts about beating one's children into submission.
Patti
would include "spanking is harmful and this is why..." while attacking/flaming
includes "spanking is wrong, you are wrong, you are an abuser, you're sick"***
Hmmm. I don't see much difference between "spanking is harmful" and "spanking is wrong." And I haven't noticed the "you are sick" or "you are an abuser" comments. I think, though, that attacking the idea of spanking, which many here have certainly done (me included) can easily be construed by a spanker (or someone who supports spankers) as an attack on their person.
***Take the recent post from the "spanker". Several people boo'd her and several
flamed her. WHY didn't anyone post links showing the harm it causes children or
ask her if she would consider trying another method if she had help and support
to do so?***
I recommended a specific book and I pointed out that there were other resources for Christian parents who didn't want to spank if they were open to finding them.
I think it's probably unrealistic for anyone to post on a list like this (where respect for children is at the core of everything discussed) about spanking being a great thing and *not* expect some flames in response. It's kind of like joining a vegan list and then cheerfully posting about how you roast a lamb on a spit every night.
*** I know exactly what bugs me. It is that on a list that is so about
treating children respectfully, a lot of people are really close-minded about
giving adults respect.***
The fact is that I don't respect everyone equally even though it seems the politically correct thing to do. I can respect that some people have more limited experience than others, or that some people believe their religion tells them to hurt their children regularly, that there are many variables that go into the choices we make as parents, and even that most of us do the best we can most of the time with the tools we have at the moment. That's not the same thing as saying "all ideas are equally wonderful, hitting your kids is just fine if that's your choice, whatever works for your family" etc. I just don't buy that.
***It is very hard for me to believe that adults who cannot
keep tempers and a respectful tone on their computers while getting their point
across, can turn to their families and show a respectful attitude towards them
when something comes up that they do not agree with.***
I personally prefer authentic communication, even when emotions run high. I definitely prefer it over polite posts about beating one's children into submission.
Patti
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 8:44:46 PM, myrandab@... writes:
<< ** I know exactly what bugs me. It is that on a list that is so about
treating children respectfully, a lot of people are really close-minded about
giving adults respect. >>
I can't respect an adult who is being cruel to a child.
It would make me a lesser person if I aided and encouraged them to continue
doing that.
I want them to treat their children with respect. I've put a lot of energy
into providing tools and ideas for them to do that. So have many others on
this list.
-=- ** Then you should be able to understand that people who are going
through or starting to go through a paradigm shift need help and support from
friends, not attacks and flames from enemies. -=-
There are many people here going through paradigm shifts. You have assured
us you are not one of them. You've repeatedly told us what you're doing is
right and good, and that all our advice you'd seen half a dozen times before.
So those people who ARE coming here to consider new and different ideas don't
need to see support for spanking. They can get that lots of other places.
Out of respect for children none of us even know, we're trying to keep this
list on the track of living harmoniously with children, learning with them,
living with them, not over them, or in opposition to them.
Sandra
<< ** I know exactly what bugs me. It is that on a list that is so about
treating children respectfully, a lot of people are really close-minded about
giving adults respect. >>
I can't respect an adult who is being cruel to a child.
It would make me a lesser person if I aided and encouraged them to continue
doing that.
I want them to treat their children with respect. I've put a lot of energy
into providing tools and ideas for them to do that. So have many others on
this list.
-=- ** Then you should be able to understand that people who are going
through or starting to go through a paradigm shift need help and support from
friends, not attacks and flames from enemies. -=-
There are many people here going through paradigm shifts. You have assured
us you are not one of them. You've repeatedly told us what you're doing is
right and good, and that all our advice you'd seen half a dozen times before.
So those people who ARE coming here to consider new and different ideas don't
need to see support for spanking. They can get that lots of other places.
Out of respect for children none of us even know, we're trying to keep this
list on the track of living harmoniously with children, learning with them,
living with them, not over them, or in opposition to them.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 9:46:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< These folks are my absolute HEROES, I tell you! >>
You are so sweet yourself Marji!!!! :) Thank you.
"I'm not a soothsayer or sage, "
Well I don't know about that. You have sage wisdom anyway....
And that voice!
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< These folks are my absolute HEROES, I tell you! >>
You are so sweet yourself Marji!!!! :) Thank you.
"I'm not a soothsayer or sage, "
Well I don't know about that. You have sage wisdom anyway....
And that voice!
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 9:46:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Take the recent post from the "spanker". Several people boo'd her and
several flamed her. WHY didn't anyone post links showing the harm it causes
children or ask her if she would consider trying another method if she had
help and support to do so? >>
Why don't YOU post that if you think it would help? Quit worrying so much
about how other people post, and post in the method you think is best. sheesh.
*" No, I've been on busy mailing lists for about 5 years now, and have
started several myself."
I hardly have time for just two lists, how on earth do you parent three young
children, giving them the time they need, and keep up?
"For another, I have seen this same spanking issue come up on many different
lists, and it has been gotten thru, the same points gotten across, without
all of the flaming going on. It's a huge, noticable difference that no one
could miss. If you guys are used to this list, and this list only, you
probably don't notice the difference as much."
Most of the people here are on at least one other list, because I see them
over at Sandra's list too.
If this list is so horrible, so mean spirited, why do you stay?
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< Take the recent post from the "spanker". Several people boo'd her and
several flamed her. WHY didn't anyone post links showing the harm it causes
children or ask her if she would consider trying another method if she had
help and support to do so? >>
Why don't YOU post that if you think it would help? Quit worrying so much
about how other people post, and post in the method you think is best. sheesh.
*" No, I've been on busy mailing lists for about 5 years now, and have
started several myself."
I hardly have time for just two lists, how on earth do you parent three young
children, giving them the time they need, and keep up?
"For another, I have seen this same spanking issue come up on many different
lists, and it has been gotten thru, the same points gotten across, without
all of the flaming going on. It's a huge, noticable difference that no one
could miss. If you guys are used to this list, and this list only, you
probably don't notice the difference as much."
Most of the people here are on at least one other list, because I see them
over at Sandra's list too.
If this list is so horrible, so mean spirited, why do you stay?
Ren
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
I hardly have time for just two lists, how on earth do you parent three young
children, giving them the time they need, and keep up?
** The first couple years were work-related and really a big time-saver. I could get in touch with almost all my employees with one e-mail, and they could chat and answer a lot of each others questions instead of me having to answer them all. Then I found a great natural parenting list that helped me expand my hobby of learning about herbs and alternative/natural medicine. Then when I quit work to stay home I started seeking out some unschooling lists, and a pregnancy list. When I don't have time, I delete. Simple as that. I also am not limited by message space, so I can save stuff as long as I want, too.
Most of the people here are on at least one other list, because I see them
over at Sandra's list too.
If this list is so horrible, so mean spirited, why do you stay?
Ren
** Because there are some great people here, and I keep hoping that eventually the topics will turn to decent, helpful topics. Surely that happens occasionally, in between fights and debates? I've already seen a few good threads here and there.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I hardly have time for just two lists, how on earth do you parent three young
children, giving them the time they need, and keep up?
** The first couple years were work-related and really a big time-saver. I could get in touch with almost all my employees with one e-mail, and they could chat and answer a lot of each others questions instead of me having to answer them all. Then I found a great natural parenting list that helped me expand my hobby of learning about herbs and alternative/natural medicine. Then when I quit work to stay home I started seeking out some unschooling lists, and a pregnancy list. When I don't have time, I delete. Simple as that. I also am not limited by message space, so I can save stuff as long as I want, too.
Most of the people here are on at least one other list, because I see them
over at Sandra's list too.
If this list is so horrible, so mean spirited, why do you stay?
Ren
** Because there are some great people here, and I keep hoping that eventually the topics will turn to decent, helpful topics. Surely that happens occasionally, in between fights and debates? I've already seen a few good threads here and there.
Myranda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/25/02 10:35:34 PM, myrandab@... writes:
<< ** Because there are some great people here, and I keep hoping that
eventually the topics will turn to decent, helpful topics. >>
Nothing can help a family as profoundly as showing them peaceful ways to live
together.
<<Surely that happens occasionally, in between fights and debates? >>
The internet is FULL of lists of things to do with flower pots and games to
play with toddlers which aren't worth arguing about.
Debate is one of the best ways for people to hone their ideas, to test their
theories, to try their convictions against other people's experiences to see
whether they're sound and whether they're keepers, or just temporary
practices until we find something more workable.
People who don't like parties can stay home from parties.
People who don't like discussions can read books, or write diaries.
People who come to discussion lists will get discussions!
Sandra
<< ** Because there are some great people here, and I keep hoping that
eventually the topics will turn to decent, helpful topics. >>
Nothing can help a family as profoundly as showing them peaceful ways to live
together.
<<Surely that happens occasionally, in between fights and debates? >>
The internet is FULL of lists of things to do with flower pots and games to
play with toddlers which aren't worth arguing about.
Debate is one of the best ways for people to hone their ideas, to test their
theories, to try their convictions against other people's experiences to see
whether they're sound and whether they're keepers, or just temporary
practices until we find something more workable.
People who don't like parties can stay home from parties.
People who don't like discussions can read books, or write diaries.
People who come to discussion lists will get discussions!
Sandra
Dalene and Andy
>>Having ideas/opinions challenged makes some people uncomfortable. But it'swhat others find valuable here.
Good post. It might be helpful if these thoughts are sent to all new people that join the group. It might be good to digest these thoughts before they start reading the rest??
Dalene
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 10/25/02 10:43 PM, Myranda at myrandab@... wrote:
around. And I've just scanned through everything posted under the
Spanking/no spanking subject line after 2:42 friday to double check. I saw
the idea/post called repulsive, offensive, sick, causing people's skin to
crawl/cold chills, even f*cking ridiculous, but nothing directed at a
person.
general rule is attack ideas not people. The statements you've presented are
to me opinions. Strong opinions, yes, but opinions nonetheless.
What I pulled out above are attacks on ideas but not attacks on people. Some
people identify strongly with their opinions so feel personally attacked
when their ideas and opinions are attacked. But here there are no rules
defending ideas from attack.
Having ideas/opinions challenged makes some people uncomfortable. But it's
what others find valuable here.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
> People posting about it have been called sick, dumbasses, abusers, and more.My impression was that no one has been called a name in this latest go
> That's flaming.
around. And I've just scanned through everything posted under the
Spanking/no spanking subject line after 2:42 friday to double check. I saw
the idea/post called repulsive, offensive, sick, causing people's skin to
crawl/cold chills, even f*cking ridiculous, but nothing directed at a
person.
> Attacking is all of the "how dare you", "you're wrong", "you are harming yourOn this list attacking would be directly calling a poster a name. The
> kids", "you're abusing your kids", etc comments. Also grounds for banning on
> almost all lists.
general rule is attack ideas not people. The statements you've presented are
to me opinions. Strong opinions, yes, but opinions nonetheless.
What I pulled out above are attacks on ideas but not attacks on people. Some
people identify strongly with their opinions so feel personally attacked
when their ideas and opinions are attacked. But here there are no rules
defending ideas from attack.
Having ideas/opinions challenged makes some people uncomfortable. But it's
what others find valuable here.
Joyce
Unschooling-dotcom moderator
Betsy
**What I pulled out above are attacks on ideas but not attacks on
people. Some
people identify strongly with their opinions so feel personally attacked
when their ideas and opinions are attacked.**
Especially people whose parents smacked them whenever they had a
contrary opinion.
Betsy
people. Some
people identify strongly with their opinions so feel personally attacked
when their ideas and opinions are attacked.**
Especially people whose parents smacked them whenever they had a
contrary opinion.
Betsy
Fetteroll
on 10/26/02 6:46 PM, Betsy at ecsamhill@... wrote:
opinions are attacked too. My dander sometimes goes up when someone
disagrees with me. And I think it's when I don't feel confident enough to
defend those opinions. Usually it's because I haven't thought the ideas
through well enough to verbalize what I mean. So it's a good wake up call to
give them some thought!
Joyce
> Especially people whose parents smacked them whenever they had aAnd some people who didn't get smacked feel personally attacked when their
> contrary opinion.
opinions are attacked too. My dander sometimes goes up when someone
disagrees with me. And I think it's when I don't feel confident enough to
defend those opinions. Usually it's because I haven't thought the ideas
through well enough to verbalize what I mean. So it's a good wake up call to
give them some thought!
Joyce