Ann Ewing

Nanci,

I don't know when you posted this originally, but I wanted to respond about
allergy testing for your son. I don't know his history which has apparently been
discussed before, but what I did want to say is this: I was going to a 2 doctor
practice seeing one specifically. In spite of ds being contantly sick with ear
infections and uri, bronchitis, etc. and have deep, dark circles under his eyes,
she urged me to wait a year or so before testing him because of his age. He was 4
at the time. Well, after a visit w/parents who have 2 cats that rule the house,
and taking him to the ER because of difficulty breathing, the other dr finally
urged me to have it done immediately. Well, lo and behold, he was severely (off
the charts) allergic to dust and dust mites among other things. Other ds ended up
having the same alleregies too! I tried many, many changes in our home to
accomodate this without having to begin weekly shots. (My sister had this her
whole childhood, so I knew what to expect). Anyway, my efforts weren't enough,
and that didn't even account for when ds's would be out and about, so we began
weekly shots - they each get one in each arm for the dust and I can't tell you
what a HUGE improvement there's been. It was a year last November, and if they've
had antibiotics more than once since we started, I can't remember! Younger one
has beautiful coloring again. In hindsight I realize this was bothering him for a
long time and it kills me that I didn't do something sooner. He knew of no other
way than being miserable! He is my "handful" child anyway, but this has made a
wonderful differenc. While they'd just as soon skip shots, they put up no fuss
when it's time to go - I think they realize how much it's helped them.

So, for what it's worth, that's my story... Ann

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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There are 15 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
> 1. Re: makin $$
> From: Kerry Kibort <kkibort@...>
> 2. Re: Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
> From: Cory and Amy Nelson <amynelson3@...>
> 3. Re: Digest Number 962
> From: Wendalina1@...
> 4. Re: Introduction & Expeditions
> From: kalima <kalima@...>
> 5. doubts and thoughts
> From: kalima <kalima@...>
> 6. Re: Re: raising dogs & pro-life
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 7. Re: Stereotypes, was Re: raising dogs & pro-life
> From: SandraDodd@...
> 8. Re: Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
> From: Cory and Amy Nelson <amynelson3@...>
> 9. Re: Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
> From: noni411@...
> 10. Re: Re: Introduction & Expeditions
> From: noni411@...
> 11. RE: FMS and multiple allergies, was Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
> From: "Jon and Rue Kream" <skreams@...>
> 12. Re: Sports
> From: "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@...>
> 13. Re: doubts and thoughts
> From: Sonia Ulan <sulan@...>
> 14. Re: makin $$
> From: "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@...>
> 15. Re: Digest Number 962
> From: "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@...>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:28:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kerry Kibort <kkibort@...>
> Subject: Re: makin $$
>
> I suggest you try to turn one of your interests into a
> business. I love to rubber stamp, and have a nice
> little business making greeting cards. I made them for
> my family as gifts and everyone they gave them to
> asked where to buy them---- BINGO BANGO, I'm in
> business! Its something I already loved to do, now I
> get paid!
> Kerry
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:55:06 -0600
> From: Cory and Amy Nelson <amynelson3@...>
> Subject: Re: Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
>
> Nanci K.-
>
> So sorry to hear about your ill health. This has probably been answered in
> one of the many posts I have yet to read, but what is FMS? Have you or your
> son tried elimination diets? This is probably something you've already done
> - I'm relatively new to the list so don't know much about your past - but
> it's the first thought that popped to mind.
>
> Amy
> Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
> "The hardest to learn was the least complicated" -Indigo Girls
>
> Now I am thinking, for his
> > own safety, I need to get in to see an allergist and have some comprehensive
> > testing done on him, as well as myself. Any advice from parents of allergic
> > and special medical needs children?
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:57:28 EST
> From: Wendalina1@...
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 962
>
> I personally don't think that all pro-life people are fanatics but I do
> believe that they are pushing their beliefs on others if they want abortion
> to be illegal. You can say that you are pro-life but agree that our laws
> should be pro-choice. I think there are many people out there with this view.
> That would mean that you are personally against it but don't feel it is your
> right to make the choice for other woman. If you want abortion banned, then
> you obviously trying to push your views on to other women. There is no way
> around it. My solution: if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have
> one. Why can't it be that simple?
>
> > In addition, you can't possibly believe that most people with prolife
> > philosophy act like the screaming nuts in front of clinics. Bumper stickers
> > and the like are an exercise in free speech, and even so, I'd be willing to
> > bet that most prolife people don't use them or any other obvious sign of
> > their stance. It's like painting all Xians with a Jerry Falwell brush, or
> > all
> > blacks with a Jesse Jackson brush, because they are the most vocal in those
> > groups.
> >
> >
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:00:17 -0500
> From: kalima <kalima@...>
> Subject: Re: Introduction & Expeditions
>
> In a message dated 1/31/01 5:25:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> kkibort@... writes:
>
> < 4. If there are no uns/hs families around your area,
> what types of people do
> > you like to hang out with/seek out?
> Thats a tough one. We're Pagan, so finding unschoolers
> is hard enough, but ad Pagan to the mix and its nearly
> impossible. Not that we only look for Pagans, but its
> quite hard to sit through scripture quotes and such
> when , to me, its as painful as country music.
> Basically, I look for natural folks, easy going,
> simple livers. The 2001 Ford Expedition is my first
> clue to run home. >>
>
> I am with you! We are pagan as well. I actually was trying to keep it
> quite to let people get to know me first but a woman went and told most
> everyone in my old town and well it got ugly fast living in New England
> where some towns like to boost where they use to hang and drown the
> witches in the old days. My worst expierance which has made me afraid to
> go to things was I replied to a letter in Mothering Magazine and asked
> if there were any pagan homeschoolers out there. I got some great
> letters and have some wonderful penpals from it but...later I got a
> phone call from a local homeschooling mom and an invitation to come up
> to thier house later that afternoon. Seems it was come see the Pagan day
> and try to convert her. I was so hurt from it and my kids were really
> upset. I have friends who are christian and we all get along and don't
> try to convert each other but this just really pushed me back into my
> little shell for awhile.
>
> As for the Expeditions...gees those things are huge and if you can drive
> one more power to you. My dh calls me his little tree hugging hindu
> kitchen witch. Well he just recently bought a Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer
> Edition. I am against things like this but he wanted a truck to tow a
> small boat or to go to the home improvement store to pick up his lumber
> since he builds furniture in his spare time. I have been giving him such
> a time about calling him yuppie and all but well he loves his new (used)
> truck and I have to admit...it is fun to drive. I have to say one of the
> most wonderful women I have met who was into many of the same things I
> am actually lives in this fancy old house and her and her husband have
> his and hers Mercedes. Tossed my thinking for a bit of a whirl. *L*
>
> Namaste,
> Shelly
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:10:00 -0500
> From: kalima <kalima@...>
> Subject: doubts and thoughts
>
> Hey all. I know I don't post often. Seems like since I joined the list
> my kids have been taking turns with one cold after another. And lately
> it has been my turn to sit in the bed with a box of tissues as well.
>
> Anyhow I just need to share. Maybe get something off my chest. I am sure
> people have doubts when they are homeschooling if they are doing the
> right thing. And sometimes I think the doubts are easier to get into
> when we unschool. I recently saw something on tv that had a
> homeschooling family in it and the kids were all sitting nicely at the
> table doing work out of book. I thought isnt that sweet. Then looked
> around at my family and thought gees maybe I should be pushing more for
> them to do "real" work. Like books and paper and such. Of course a few
> mintues later I was thinking what the heck just got into me. I want my
> kids to be individuals and learn at thier own pace and learn what they
> want and discover along the way who they are. But sometimes I wonder
> about the choices I make as a parent.
>
> Maybe it is harder since it seems I find so little in common with
> famlies here locally. I don't know many families that do family bed or
> use cloth diapers or breastfeed past a few months. My choices I make
> informed and I makes choices that will best suit my family and our
> situation but when the rest of the world goes along it is hard to keep
> the beat of your own drum.
>
> I really don't know what my point is. *L* Gee maybe that is my problem.
> (Or I need some sleep.) I guess I just need to get it off my chest I
> sort of feel like at times I am going against the grain and wonder how
> my kids will turn out and if I am doing the right thing. I am glad this
> list is here. At least I can read there are really other families out
> there with similar ideas and ways of doing things as we do.
>
> Shelly
> mom to 5
> Connecticut
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:28:07 EST
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: raising dogs & pro-life
>
> In a message dated 1/31/01 12:45:28 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> squeaksoup@... writes:
>
> > Many Catholics (most) use birth control.
>
> I'm guessing when you wrote "(most)" you meant Americans of your
> acquaintance. There are Catholic countries in which birth control is not
> available, or is illegal, because the Pope doesn't want it used and the state
> religion is Catholicism. The U.S. isn't the most Catholic of nations, nor
> the most cooperative of nations among the very many Catholic nations.
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:38:10 EST
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Stereotypes, was Re: raising dogs & pro-life
>
> In a message dated 1/31/01 11:56:25 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> diamondair@... writes:
>
> >
>
> I'm supposed to say, "Oh; you're right. I'm sorry."??
>
> The way the Catholic church is set up, the Pope is the head of the church and
> the Pope says all Catholics are to conform. Not conforming is sin. That's
> the way that church is set up. If Americans vote to ignore the Pope or
> individual just DO ignore their local parish, they are (in the eyes of that
> church) committing mortal sin.
>
> For others to pretend that I'm narrow minded because I mention the fact that
> Roman Catholics as a (VERY LARGE) group are officially against birth control
> is unfair to me.
>
> I'm not making things up, and I'm not naive about numbers nor the political
> sway of churches (meaning BIG publishing-house-level church management, not
> single congregations, but the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church). Open
> mindedness doesn't change fact.
>
> Sandra
>
> [This message contained attachments]
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:37:43 -0600
> From: Cory and Amy Nelson <amynelson3@...>
> Subject: Re: Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
>
> That's terrific, Dawn! I wish I had had your son's curiosity and
> fearlessness to explore math at that age.
>
> Amy
> Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
> "The hardest to learn was the least complicated" -Indigo Girls
>
> > My ds8 surprised me yesterday by taking out a workbook and doing an entire
> > page of division! I didnt even think he understood the way a division
> > problem looks never mind that he could actually do it! He told me he just
> > wanted to see if he was getting the "multiplication thing" and the "division
> > thing" is just the "other part of it". His words! I was so thrilled!
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:53:58 EST
> From: noni411@...
> Subject: Re: Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
>
> In a message dated 1/31/1 3:35:37 PM, moblpetvet@... writes:
>
> <<I'm just not
> sure how I can work it out. Any thoughts?
>
> Janet>>
>
> Hi Janet,
>
> I work from home on my computer, with my dd, and just move from one thing to
> another as needed. We have no set hours for anything. Is this an option for
> you? Or maybe one of those cooperative work places that you can bring your
> kids to?
>
> And I must share with everyone that my dd is currently taping toilet paper to
> her fingers with masking tape and making little finger puppets! It started
> off that she was playing Dr. with me while I'm typing, and her pretend
> bandage for me was tp- well she drew a face on it, and decided it was really
> cool! Too cute. She has quite the imagination! But don't they all?!
>
> Vic and Ariel (4)
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:07:01 EST
> From: noni411@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Introduction & Expeditions
>
> In a message dated 1/31/1 6:14:15 PM, kalima@... writes:
>
> <<I have to say one of the
> most wonderful women I have met who was into many of the same things I
> am actually lives in this fancy old house and her and her husband have
> his and hers Mercedes. Tossed my thinking for a bit of a whirl. *L*
> >>
>
> I believe as long as we're not hurting ourselves or anyone else (especially
> by flaunting it or just trying to be like someone else and buying what they
> have to measure up)- and helping ourselves and others with it, having money
> is good, and should get us the things we want.
>
> Vic
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:58:08 -0500
> From: "Jon and Rue Kream" <skreams@...>
> Subject: RE: FMS and multiple allergies, was Say... How bout them Blazers Huh?
>
> Hi Nancy - I have fibromyalgia, and I would say the main symptoms are pain
> and insomnia. There's also migraines, dropping things, poor memory and word
> recall, irritable bowel syndrome, flu-like achiness, missing your mouth
> when you try to drink, swelling in hands, and difficulty shaking a virus.
> My favorite book on the subject is "Fibromyalgia and Chronic Myofascial Pain
> Syndrome" by Devin Starlanyl and Mary Ellen Copeland. I know they have a
> website too. There is a LOT of misinformation out there, and I really
> think it's just a word used to describe something that doctors haven't
> figured out yet. They do know that I have candida (too much yeast in the
> intestines) and some minor food allergies, but that doesn't really explain
> most of the symptoms. I was diagnosed in 1991, and every doctor I've been
> to in the past ten years has heard of it, but not every one has taken it
> seriously or known a lot about it. Unfortunately, I have not found much
> relief, and have tried many medications and therapies. I would recommend
> seeing an osteopath, as they seem to be able to feel where your pain is and
> provide some massage therapy. I would also go to as many doctors as it
> takes until you are listened too. My life is profoundly affected, as you
> said, but you do learn to deal with it. If you have any specific questions
> about it I'll be happy to answer them. I hope you don't have it! - Rue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DiamondAir [mailto:diamondair@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 1:04 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] FMS and multiple allergies, was Say... How
> bout them Blazers Huh?
>
> > From: "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-k4of5@...>
> > Well I have been absent in recent months due to a series of illnesses. I
> know this topic has been discussed before, but I need help. A good friend
> is telling me to look into FMS, as she thinks I am a prime candidate for
> such a diagnosis. I really am starting to feel like some kind of
> hypochondriac because I always seem to be sick. So educate me about FMS,
> what are key symptoms, and would my family doc even know what it is? I am
> really finding that my life is profoundly affected by my consistently poor
> health, even more so that it always was as a child, since I have kids of my
> own to care for now and just cannot be sick this much.
> >
> > Also, my son has multiple allergy issues, as many of you may know, since
> we have discussed allergies before too. He just turned four in December and
> I have been avoiding intrusive allergy tests because I did not want to put a
> young child through a lot of torture over them. Now I am thinking, for his
> own safety, I need to get in to see an allergist and have some comprehensive
> testing done on him, as well as myself. Any advice from parents of allergic
> and special medical needs children?
>
> Nanci,
>
> I've mentioned it on this list before, but I think it's important enough to
> repeat. I seriously suggest looking into NAET treatments, both for allergies
> and FMS. You can read about it at http://www.naet.com . But keep an open
> mind. When I first heard about it, and indeed when I first took my son in to
> be treated, it just seemed totally hokey and impossible to me. But it
> really, really works! When I took my son in for his first NAET treatment, he
> had endured 4 months of hives due to food allergies that we couldn't pin
> down. He had been to pediatricians and allergists, poked with needles for
> allergy tests that were inconclusive and told us nothing. The best that the
> doctors and allergists could come up with was a prescription for long-term
> Claritin use and an Epipen just in case he went in to anaphylactic shock.
> That and a diet that avoided just about everything edible on earth. We
> existed on Millet bread and rice cheese for months before I found NAET. When
> I took him in for his first treatment, I didn't give him any antihistamines
> that morning, because I thought it might interfere. By the time his
> appointment rolled around, he was covered in huge welty hives from head to
> toe, and his face and hands were swelling up. Within literally minutes of
> the start of the NAET treatment, the hives started disappearing before my
> very eyes. They came back for about 5 hours after his 2nd NAET treatment and
> have not been back since! So far we have had him "cleared" of 5 of his food
> allergies and are eating all kinds of things we hadn't eaten in months. I
> can't describe how happy I am not to see my little guy swollen up, itching,
> and covered in hives. Not to mention eating Quinoa pasta (blech!).
>
> A friend of mine's mother had fibromalgyia and Crohn's disease, and was
> basically debilitated by pain. The doctors kept giving her different kinds
> of medications, but nothing worked. She was taking dozens of ibuprofen a
> day. Her remission after NAET treatments has left her able to totally enjoy
> life. She's not completely free of all of her symptoms, but enough that she
> feels she has "a completely different body". I can't say enough about this
> amazing treatment. Best of all, for kids, it is completely painless.
> Mackenzie actually looks forward to going to see "Doctor Deborah", the
> naturopath who has been doing our NAET treatments. Often chiropractors,
> acupuncturists, or naturopaths become NAET specialists, so you might try
> looking in the phone book under these professions to see if you can find
> someone who does it.
>
> Hope this info is helpful. I know I might sound like I'm proselytizing about
> it, but if I can help one family avoid the horrible allergy problems we had,
> and the lack of useful treatment from allopathic physicians, the elimination
> diets and the medications, it is worth it!!
>
> BTW, NAET is also used to treat Sensory Integration problems, Autism, and
> many other allergy-related illnesses. The woman who created NAET, Dr.
> Nambudriped has written a couple of books "Say Goodbye to Illness" and "Say
> Goodbye to Allergy-Related Autism" that might be worth checking out for
> anyone interested in how it works.
>
> Blue Skies!
> -Robin-
> Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "I want to grow up to be a nun, because I love to
> sing" (can you tell we just watched the "Sound of Music"??)
> and Asa (10/5/99) "More get doggies happy be!"
> http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
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> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
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> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:18:26
> From: "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@...>
> Subject: Re: Sports
>
> I like hockey, but I'm a Philadelphia Flyers fan.
>
> Bonnie
>
> >From: Kerry Kibort <kkibort@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Sports
> >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 05:29:26 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Anyone wanna talk sports???
> >
> >My family is BIG into hockey. The Boston Bruins won
> >the St. Louis Blues last night! Wahoo!
> >Anyone else into hockey? Other sports?
> >Kerry
> >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:49:30 -0600
> From: Sonia Ulan <sulan@...>
> Subject: Re: doubts and thoughts
>
> kalima wrote:
> >
> >
> > Anyhow I just need to share.
> I guess I just need to get it off my chest I
> > sort of feel like at times I am going against the grain and wonder how
> > my kids will turn out and if I am doing the right thing. I am glad this
> > list is here. At least I can read there are really other families out
> > there with similar ideas and ways of doing things as we do.
> >
> > Shelly
> > mom to 5
> > Connecticut
> >
> >
>
> Hi Shelly;
>
> I think most of us feel this way at one time or another. Have
> confidence in the fact that you are not alone and there are TONS of
> people out there who are like you and who are making many of the same
> choices. So what if we are not in the majority? I think it takes great
> courage to go against the grain...most leaders, artists and historical
> figures became who they were because they had the courage to stand alone
> and be unique. You can feel good about what you are doing for your
> family. Kids, families, relationships, etc. are not factory issue. We
> can't possibly all be the same. And the more rare something is, usually
> the more valuable it is!
>
> Sonia
> A mother who sometimes has doubts too...
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:39:34
> From: "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@...>
> Subject: Re: makin $$
>
> Another suggestion, which is what I have been doing since the summer, is to
> work at night. I work at Barnes & Noble because they are open until 11 pm.
> That way, I can have dinner, hubby's home and I can get to work.
>
> However, my kids are night owls and don't get up in the morning. It is
> really nice to get out of the house once in a while though.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Bonnie
>
> >From: Kerry Kibort <kkibort@...>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom]makin $$
> >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:28:05 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >I suggest you try to turn one of your interests into a
> >business. I love to rubber stamp, and have a nice
> >little business making greeting cards. I made them for
> >my family as gifts and everyone they gave them to
> >asked where to buy them---- BINGO BANGO, I'm in
> >business! Its something I already loved to do, now I
> >get paid!
> >Kerry
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 00:40:39
> From: "Bonnie Painter" <bonniepainter@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 962
>
> Here, here.
>
> >From: Wendalina1@...
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 962
> >Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:57:28 EST
> >
> >I personally don't think that all pro-life people are fanatics but I do
> >believe that they are pushing their beliefs on others if they want abortion
> >to be illegal. You can say that you are pro-life but agree that our laws
> >should be pro-choice. I think there are many people out there with this
> >view.
> >That would mean that you are personally against it but don't feel it is
> >your
> >right to make the choice for other woman. If you want abortion banned, then
> >you obviously trying to push your views on to other women. There is no way
> >around it. My solution: if you don't want to have an abortion, don't have
> >one. Why can't it be that simple?
> >
> > > In addition, you can't possibly believe that most people with prolife
> > > philosophy act like the screaming nuts in front of clinics. Bumper
> >stickers
> > > and the like are an exercise in free speech, and even so, I'd be willing
> >to
> > > bet that most prolife people don't use them or any other obvious sign of
> > > their stance. It's like painting all Xians with a Jerry Falwell brush,
> >or
> > > all
> > > blacks with a Jesse Jackson brush, because they are the most vocal in
> >those
> > > groups.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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Ann Ewing

Oh, I'm sorry - forgot to trim post :(( Ann