DiamondAir

> From: SandraDodd@...
> << Many people who embrace a pro-life view are in favor of and practice
> birth control, usually those methods which prevent fertilization rather
than
> implantation.>>
>
> Many but not most.
> There are a badillion Catholics.



Sandra, I have great respect for your views in general and for all the
informative posts you have made on this list. I have to say I am surprised
and dismayed by the close-minded words I have seen you type on this thread.

For the record, I'm a non-fundamentalist pro-life person who (as many other
people who don't believe in routine abortion) practice responsible birth
control and do not proselytize my beliefs to others nor condemn other people
for their choices. Let's not see the world in black-and-white. There are all
kinds of people who hold pro-choice beliefs, from those who work to help
children born to parents who don't want or care for them all the way to the
NARAL head worker I know who uses abortion as birth control (has had 5 so
far). Obviously it would not be fair if I used my co-worker the casual
abortion-getter who talks about her former babies as "the little blobs" to
be got rid of, to represent all people who are pro-choice. There are all
kinds of people who are pro-life, from abortion-clinic bombers and
in-your-face proselytizers to quiet people who live their lives in
accordance with their own beliefs and feel strongly in their hearts that
killing children (even unborn) is wrong but who do not condemn others for
the choices they make or beliefs they hold. Obviously it would not be fair
to use the abortion-clinic bomber to represent all people who are pro-life.
Even among Catholics, there is a huge spectrum in beliefs and practices. Any
time we lump all people who hold a particular belief under one single
banner, we cheat ourselves of recognizing the diversity of human belief, and
of learning something about the way other people think and feel. We also
hurt feelings and impair the ability to communicate honestly and openly. I'd
hope that on this list we can do better than that.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "I want to grow up to be a nun, because I love to
sing" (can you tell we just watched the "Sound of Music"??)
and Asa (10/5/99) "More get doggies happy be!"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

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In a message dated 1/31/01 11:56:25 AM Mountain Standard Time,
diamondair@... writes:


Even among Catholics, there is a huge spectrum in beliefs and practices.


I'm supposed to say, "Oh; you're right.  I'm sorry."??

The way the Catholic church is set up, the Pope is the head of the church and
the Pope says all Catholics are to conform.  Not conforming is sin.  That's
the way that church is set up.  If Americans vote to ignore the Pope or
individual just DO ignore their local parish, they are (in the eyes of that
church) committing mortal sin.

For others to pretend that I'm narrow minded because I mention the fact that
Roman Catholics as a (VERY LARGE) group are officially against birth control
is unfair to me.  

I'm not making things up, and I'm not naive about numbers nor the political
sway of churches (meaning BIG publishing-house-level church management, not
single congregations, but the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church).  Open
mindedness doesn't change fact.

Sandra

Susan

Sandra,  I think you are really treading where you shouldn't.  For instance, your examples are incorrect.  I am not aware of any American vote.  Are you a practicing Catholic or Southern Baptist?  If you are not, then you really need to state that these are your opinions.   For years I curiously watched the Catholic church, studied and became an adult convert.  I have spent a lot of time on the issues you are discussing.  As well, I have a number of Catholic friends in Italy, and they would be quite surprised  at your opinions.  Let's stick to the topics that we are supposed to, re unschooling.  Certainly religion has its place, but lets let the members of each group describe their practices and beliefs.  That would lead to less animosity and more genuine learning.  What do you think?  Susan 
 
I'm supposed to say, "Oh; you're right.  I'm sorry."??

The way the Catholic church is set up, the Pope is the head of the church and
the Pope says all Catholics are to conform.  Not conforming is sin.  That's
the way that church is set up.  If Americans vote to ignore the Pope or
individual just DO ignore their local parish, they are (in the eyes of that
church) committing mortal sin.

For others to pretend that I'm narrow minded because I mention the fact that
Roman Catholics as a (VERY LARGE) group are officially against birth control
is unfair to me.  

I'm not making things up, and I'm not naive about numbers nor the political
sway of churches (meaning BIG publishing-house-level church management, not
single congregations, but the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church).  Open
mindedness doesn't change fact.

Sandra
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Lynda

As a former RC, I beg to differ.  Everything she stated was true.  Also, she didn't say that Americans voted, she said, by implication, that IF Americans voted to do thus and such, it would be considered a mortal sin by the RCC.
 
Now, having not only friends but an absolute plauthera of relatives in Italy, not one of them would be surprised by or offended by this discription.  In fact, Noni use to gross quite regularly about what she thought was wrong with the church but usually followed it with some comment to the effect that she would have to go with what the church said inorder to protect her immortal soul.
 
Further, right now quite a few are up in arms over the church's involvement in money laundering operations and other neferous activities they have participated in through the banks they own and/or hold a majority stock interest in.  The sort of thing they don't "share" with folks on this side of the pond.
 
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Stereotypes, was Re: raising dogs & pro-life

Sandra,  I think you are really treading where you shouldn't.  For instance, your examples are incorrect.  I am not aware of any American vote.  Are you a practicing Catholic or Southern Baptist?  If you are not, then you really need to state that these are your opinions.   For years I curiously watched the Catholic church, studied and became an adult convert.  I have spent a lot of time on the issues you are discussing.  As well, I have a number of Catholic friends in Italy, and they would be quite surprised  at your opinions.  Let's stick to the topics that we are supposed to, re unschooling.  Certainly religion has its place, but lets let the members of each group describe their practices and beliefs.  That would lead to less animosity and more genuine learning.  What do you think?  Susan 
 
I'm supposed to say, "Oh; you're right.  I'm sorry."??

The way the Catholic church is set up, the Pope is the head of the church and
the Pope says all Catholics are to conform.  Not conforming is sin.  That's
the way that church is set up.  If Americans vote to ignore the Pope or
individual just DO ignore their local parish, they are (in the eyes of that
church) committing mortal sin.

For others to pretend that I'm narrow minded because I mention the fact that
Roman Catholics as a (VERY LARGE) group are officially against birth control
is unfair to me.  

I'm not making things up, and I'm not naive about numbers nor the political
sway of churches (meaning BIG publishing-house-level church management, not
single congregations, but the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church).  Open
mindedness doesn't change fact.

Sandra
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
www.

Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Addresses:
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Unsubscribe: [email protected]
List owner: [email protected]
List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom



Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Addresses:
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Unsubscribe: [email protected]
List owner: [email protected]
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dawn

> Further, right now quite a few are up in arms over the church's involvement in money laundering operations and other neferous activities they have participated in through the banks they own and/or hold a majority stock interest in. The sort of thing they don't "share" with folks on this side of the pond.
>
isn't this right in line with the activities of the Church throughout
history? the old adage about absolute power corrupting does't just apply
to governments:/
dhs

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In a message dated 2/2/01 7:04:16 AM, lurine@... writes:

<< Are you a practicing Catholic or Southern Baptist? If you are not, then
you really need to state that these are your opinions. For years I
curiously watched the Catholic church, studied and became an adult convert. >>

I'm not trying to drag this out, I'm sorry; I just now saw this one.

I grew up Southern Baptist and didn't just go to church, but was heavily
involved in all possible training union, girls' auxiliary, etc., and used my
own allowance to buy materials to study more (What Baptists' Believe, in
hardback, with my own kid money, etc.) because I had planned to be a
missionary.

Meanwhile, up the road, I was for year and some involved in the folk mass at
Santa Cruz church in Santa Cruz, New Mexico (kind of a suburb of Espanola,
which is North of Santa Fe) because friends of mine weren't able to put on as
good a folk mass as they wanted to so they solicited my help. Because of
criticism by some of the parents ("She's not even Catholic!") and because of
my intense interest in religion, and the feeling that if I was going to claim
to teach I should know MORE than just what my own church taught, I started
attending CYO classes at night with the Catholic kids my age. Few of them
were really paying attention or asking pertinent questions. Certainly they
weren't doing the reading. I did.

I traded Bibles with my best friend, but she showed up about an hour later
because her mom had freaked out that she had a protestant Bible in the house
and needed their Catholic Bible back RIGHT THEN.

From being one of the two coordinators of the music for folk mass, I ended up
hanging out with one of the priests a fair amount. We went to do the folk
music at other little churches up in the boonies. He'd answer my questions,
too. And I have always read about the beliefs of other people. Several of
the books I bought when my kids were younger and that we've read and used
several times as reference are about different religions, which grew from
what, and what their main beliefs are.

<<Are you a practicing Catholic or Southern Baptist? If you are not, then
you really need to state that these are your opinions. >>

If I were a practicing Catholic it would either be my opinion (if it were my
opinion) or truth (if I were stating the official position of the church).
If I were a practicing Baptist and said "It's okay for Baptists to drink and
dance" that would NOT be my opinion, that would be a falsehood. It is okay
for an individual Baptist to ignore the beliefs of the church he's been
baptized into, has joined of his own free will. It is okay (with me, and
with some who post here) for a Roman Catholic mass-attending person to say "I
am Catholic" but to ignore the dictates of the Pope. It's not okay with the
Pope, and it's not (by that line of reasoning) okay with God. IF the Pope
doesn't speak for God, then why would someone say "I am Roman Catholic"? You
cannot have your cake and eat it and have it ascend into heaven all at the
same time. (Unless YOU eat it and YOU ascend into heaven, which could surely
happen again if it has ever happened.)

I live in New Mexico. I know nothing of the state budget these days. If I
pretended I did, I would just be bluffing. I don't bluff. If someone here
who lives in New Jersey or Oregon but just happens to know or care about the
state budget of New Mexico, has read up on it because of personal curiosity
or because their job or volunteer work caused them to need to know, THEY
would be way more qualified to speak about that than I am even though I live
in New Mexico and pay taxes here.

Being Baptist or Catholic doesn't make a person a spokesman for the
leadership of that religion.

Sandra

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In a message dated 2/2/01 1:11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< I live in New Mexico. >>
Where in New Mexico? We lived in Cordova and Santa Fe from 1995-1998.

Also I want to share that I've realized that I had learned a lot from the
raising dogs & pro-life thread. Throughout the discussions and arguments I
was watching people express strong opinions, react to each other, make
assumptions. and attack without asking questions. This morning I saw that
that's a lot of what happens between me and my husband. I don't get triggered
by this list the way I do by him:>) We have all the big stuff (religion,
educational & political beliefs, etc.) in common but have very different
personalities. I felt like we communicated better today about our
difficulties and that was a direct result of reading all those e-mails. I'm
glad I didn't delete them. So I guess it was all "on topic" after all. I'd
still like to see us all work on clear communication and questioning rather
than assuming and I pledge to work on that more here at home as well. I feel
so much less isolated in my daily life at home now that I have this group. So
thanks! -Amalia-

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In a message dated 2/2/01 7:04:16 AM, lurine@... writes:

<< Also, she didn't say that Americans voted, she said, by implication, that
IF Americans voted to do thus and such, it would be considered a mortal sin
by the RCC. >>

What I meant was that if all the American catholics took a vote and decided
to ignore the Pope, it still wouldn't make them right in the eyes of the
church. If you don't want to follow the Pope, you become a protestant, or
you become a sinner. If you go against what your church teaches, you're
plain going against those teachings. If you think your personal relation
with God takes precedence over what the priests, bishops, archbishops,
cardinals and the Pope say, welcome to Protestantism!

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In a message dated 2/2/01 4:01:43 PM, adarl52357@... writes:

<< << I live in New Mexico. >>
Where in New Mexico? We lived in Cordova and Santa Fe from 1995-1998. >>

Albuquerque now, but grew up in Espanola, and I know my way around Cordova
(used to, anyway, in the 1960's and early 1970's). When I was teaching Jr.
High I had two girls in my class, in the same period, both named Sandra J.
Cordova, both from Cordova. (For the benefit of readers here, Cordova has a
few hundred people. It's between Chimayo and Truchas, for map mavens who
might want to look it up.)

-=-Also I want to share that I've realized that I had learned a lot from the
raising dogs & pro-life thread. Throughout the discussions and arguments I
was watching people express strong opinions, react to each other, make
assumptions. and attack without asking questions. -=-

I'm always disturbed by being accused of attacking when I'm just clarifying
something which was unclearly stated, and then I'm attacked (by name, and
directly) if I defend that. It happens. I should learn not to be surprised.

Sandra

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In a message dated 2/2/01 11:33:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< I'm always disturbed by being accused of attacking when I'm just
clarifying
something which was unclearly stated, and then I'm attacked (by name, and
directly) if I defend that. >>
Dear Sandra,
I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned attacks, "express strong opinions"
was referring more to your e-mails. That's my husband's style. I'm more of a
react and attack type in the relationship. Peace, Amalia

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In a message dated 2/2/01 11:33:56 PM Pacific Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< I'm always disturbed by being accused of attacking when I'm just
clarifying
something which was unclearly stated >>

This reminds me of the time when I pounded my fist on a table during a
meeting and was accused of "violence." This was in the Baltimore group where
I first found out that homeschooling did not necessarily mean unschooling:>)
-A-