[Unschooling-dotcom] Re: pro-life
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
>I find that pro-lifers aren't the ones cramming "choice" down other... does anybody realize that if you are pro-life, pro-natural family
>people's throats and are not the ones who falsely make claims about
>how "choice" helps humanity
>planning, pro-God's will & the faith to do His will, that you are......we don't go around shoving our beliefs down other
>under constant attack by "pro-choicers"?
>people's throats and we don't try to "convince" others to follow ourChris,
>beliefs. We do live out a testimony to our beliefs and find it
>absolutely amazing that so many people are offended by our "pro-life" >attitude and have the nerve to try to shove their opinions down our >throats.
>Chris
>Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and baby due in
>March!!!!
First of all, congratulations on your impending arrival, my borther and his wife just had a new baby two weeks ago. Very exciting for everyone, especially their two daughters.
I just had to comment on the above. The Pro-Life advocates ARE VERY vocal and insistent about their beliefs and surely DO shove them down the throats of others. By your use of "we" I must assume you are talking about your own family and your personal beliefs, because the Pro-life movement is absolutely merciless.
Pro-Life supporters picket clinics and shout obsceneties at pregnant women, without knowing anything about their personal circumstances or what brought them to the excruciating decision to termiante a pregnancy. The wave signs and banners with slurs and condemnations on them, they block entrance to clinics. The lunatic fringe of this movement has shot and killed people over their "Defense of Life." I am baffled as to why you would feel indignant that others would find some of the behavior of the Pro-Life movement and their campaigns to be intrusive and abusive.
I am sorry that you have had to endure the shameful behavior of others who try to judge your lifestyle. I believe you when you say you are attacked for your decision to live your lives in a way that upholds your spiritual beliefs. I get attacked for doing the very same thing. But remember all the hatred and nastiness that has been flung from both sides of this issue, before you cry out injustice over the accusations made against any one side. This debate is a heated one wherever it springs up because, like religion, it is a deeply emotional issue for those involved.
Nanci K.
Just wanted to point out what I thought was a mistaken statement, not debating or starting a fight.
------------------------------------------------------------
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Nanci,
Thank you for your response and for helping to make something clear.
You are correct in thinking that "we" does mean my husband and me.
I'd also like to thank you for understanding the nature of the post;
there are people who have their beliefs and do their best to lives
them out, whether it's based on spirituality or not.
I'll also thank you for seeing that people on the "other side" of the
pro-choice issue are attacked and that others believe they should be
the ones deciding your life.
There was a message posted a little while ago that expressed the
point-of-view of some religions or fanatics. I'm not sure how one
person is the spokesperson for these religions or that that one
person should be speaking for all those belonging to those
religions. Like all the decisions in our life, yes, they are based
on faith, but are also conscienscious, independent and free-thinking
decisions, much like our decision to unschool for countless reasons.
This is a heated topic and all who broach it know this. This topic
should not entitle others to vehemently critize each other. If it
was my place, I would apologize to those of you who have been
offended, obstructed or treated in a violent way when going to
procure an abortion. Just as, if it was my place, I would apologize
to the women who have chosen abortion and have suffered the sometimes
painful consequences of it.
Chris
Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and baby due in
March!!!
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-
k4of5@i...> wrote:
down our >throats.
everyone, especially their two daughters.
down the throats of others. By your use of "we" I must assume you
are talking about your own family and your personal beliefs, because
the Pro-life movement is absolutely merciless.
circumstances or what brought them to the excruciating decision to
termiante a pregnancy. The wave signs and banners with slurs and
condemnations on them, they block entrance to clinics. The lunatic
fringe of this movement has shot and killed people over
their "Defense of Life." I am baffled as to why you would feel
indignant that others would find some of the behavior of the Pro-Life
movement and their campaigns to be intrusive and abusive.
you are attacked for your decision to live your lives in a way that
upholds your spiritual beliefs. I get attacked for doing the very
same thing. But remember all the hatred and nastiness that has been
flung from both sides of this issue, before you cry out injustice
over the accusations made against any one side. This debate is a
heated one wherever it springs up because, like religion, it is a
deeply emotional issue for those involved.
Thank you for your response and for helping to make something clear.
You are correct in thinking that "we" does mean my husband and me.
I'd also like to thank you for understanding the nature of the post;
there are people who have their beliefs and do their best to lives
them out, whether it's based on spirituality or not.
I'll also thank you for seeing that people on the "other side" of the
pro-choice issue are attacked and that others believe they should be
the ones deciding your life.
There was a message posted a little while ago that expressed the
point-of-view of some religions or fanatics. I'm not sure how one
person is the spokesperson for these religions or that that one
person should be speaking for all those belonging to those
religions. Like all the decisions in our life, yes, they are based
on faith, but are also conscienscious, independent and free-thinking
decisions, much like our decision to unschool for countless reasons.
This is a heated topic and all who broach it know this. This topic
should not entitle others to vehemently critize each other. If it
was my place, I would apologize to those of you who have been
offended, obstructed or treated in a violent way when going to
procure an abortion. Just as, if it was my place, I would apologize
to the women who have chosen abortion and have suffered the sometimes
painful consequences of it.
Chris
Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and baby due in
March!!!
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-
k4of5@i...> wrote:
>other
>
> >I find that pro-lifers aren't the ones cramming "choice" down
> >people's throats and are not the ones who falsely make claimsabout
> >how "choice" helps humanityfamily
>
> ... does anybody realize that if you are pro-life, pro-natural
> >planning, pro-God's will & the faith to do His will, that you areour
> >under constant attack by "pro-choicers"?
> ......we don't go around shoving our beliefs down other
> >people's throats and we don't try to "convince" others to follow
> >beliefs. We do live out a testimony to our beliefs and find itlife" >attitude and have the nerve to try to shove their opinions
> >absolutely amazing that so many people are offended by our "pro-
down our >throats.
>and his wife just had a new baby two weeks ago. Very exciting for
> >Chris
> >Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and baby due in
> >March!!!!
>
>
> Chris,
>
> First of all, congratulations on your impending arrival, my borther
everyone, especially their two daughters.
>VERY vocal and insistent about their beliefs and surely DO shove them
> I just had to comment on the above. The Pro-Life advocates ARE
down the throats of others. By your use of "we" I must assume you
are talking about your own family and your personal beliefs, because
the Pro-life movement is absolutely merciless.
>pregnant women, without knowing anything about their personal
> Pro-Life supporters picket clinics and shout obsceneties at
circumstances or what brought them to the excruciating decision to
termiante a pregnancy. The wave signs and banners with slurs and
condemnations on them, they block entrance to clinics. The lunatic
fringe of this movement has shot and killed people over
their "Defense of Life." I am baffled as to why you would feel
indignant that others would find some of the behavior of the Pro-Life
movement and their campaigns to be intrusive and abusive.
>others who try to judge your lifestyle. I believe you when you say
> I am sorry that you have had to endure the shameful behavior of
you are attacked for your decision to live your lives in a way that
upholds your spiritual beliefs. I get attacked for doing the very
same thing. But remember all the hatred and nastiness that has been
flung from both sides of this issue, before you cry out injustice
over the accusations made against any one side. This debate is a
heated one wherever it springs up because, like religion, it is a
deeply emotional issue for those involved.
>not debating or starting a fight.
> Nanci K.
> Just wanted to point out what I thought was a mistaken statement,
>today!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm)
> Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
[email protected]
Nanci,
Thank you for your response and for helping to make something clear.
You are correct in thinking that "we" does mean my husband and me.
I'd also like to thank you for understanding the nature of the post;
there are people who have their beliefs and do their best to lives
them out, whether it's based on spirituality or not.
I'll also thank you for seeing that people on the "other side" of the
pro-choice issue are attacked and that others believe they should be
the ones deciding your life.
There was a message posted a little while ago that expressed the
point-of-view of some religions or fanatics. I'm not sure how one
person is the spokesperson for these religions or that that one
person should be speaking for all those belonging to those
religions. Like all the decisions in our life, yes, they are based
on faith, but are also conscienscious, independent and free-thinking
decisions, much like our decision to unschool for countless reasons.
This is a heated topic and all who broach it know this. This topic
should not entitle others to vehemently critize each other. If it
was my place, I would apologize to those of you who have been
offended, obstructed or treated in a violent way when going to
procure an abortion. Just as, if it was my place, I would apologize
to the women who have chosen abortion and have suffered the sometimes
painful consequences of it.
Chris
Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and baby due in
March!!!
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-
k4of5@i...> wrote:
down our >throats.
everyone, especially their two daughters.
down the throats of others. By your use of "we" I must assume you
are talking about your own family and your personal beliefs, because
the Pro-life movement is absolutely merciless.
circumstances or what brought them to the excruciating decision to
termiante a pregnancy. The wave signs and banners with slurs and
condemnations on them, they block entrance to clinics. The lunatic
fringe of this movement has shot and killed people over
their "Defense of Life." I am baffled as to why you would feel
indignant that others would find some of the behavior of the Pro-Life
movement and their campaigns to be intrusive and abusive.
you are attacked for your decision to live your lives in a way that
upholds your spiritual beliefs. I get attacked for doing the very
same thing. But remember all the hatred and nastiness that has been
flung from both sides of this issue, before you cry out injustice
over the accusations made against any one side. This debate is a
heated one wherever it springs up because, like religion, it is a
deeply emotional issue for those involved.
Thank you for your response and for helping to make something clear.
You are correct in thinking that "we" does mean my husband and me.
I'd also like to thank you for understanding the nature of the post;
there are people who have their beliefs and do their best to lives
them out, whether it's based on spirituality or not.
I'll also thank you for seeing that people on the "other side" of the
pro-choice issue are attacked and that others believe they should be
the ones deciding your life.
There was a message posted a little while ago that expressed the
point-of-view of some religions or fanatics. I'm not sure how one
person is the spokesperson for these religions or that that one
person should be speaking for all those belonging to those
religions. Like all the decisions in our life, yes, they are based
on faith, but are also conscienscious, independent and free-thinking
decisions, much like our decision to unschool for countless reasons.
This is a heated topic and all who broach it know this. This topic
should not entitle others to vehemently critize each other. If it
was my place, I would apologize to those of you who have been
offended, obstructed or treated in a violent way when going to
procure an abortion. Just as, if it was my place, I would apologize
to the women who have chosen abortion and have suffered the sometimes
painful consequences of it.
Chris
Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and baby due in
March!!!
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall" <tn-
k4of5@i...> wrote:
>other
>
> >I find that pro-lifers aren't the ones cramming "choice" down
> >people's throats and are not the ones who falsely make claimsabout
> >how "choice" helps humanityfamily
>
> ... does anybody realize that if you are pro-life, pro-natural
> >planning, pro-God's will & the faith to do His will, that you areour
> >under constant attack by "pro-choicers"?
> ......we don't go around shoving our beliefs down other
> >people's throats and we don't try to "convince" others to follow
> >beliefs. We do live out a testimony to our beliefs and find itlife" >attitude and have the nerve to try to shove their opinions
> >absolutely amazing that so many people are offended by our "pro-
down our >throats.
>and his wife just had a new baby two weeks ago. Very exciting for
> >Chris
> >Mommy to Jason (8), Angela (6-1/2), Daniel (3-1/2) and baby due in
> >March!!!!
>
>
> Chris,
>
> First of all, congratulations on your impending arrival, my borther
everyone, especially their two daughters.
>VERY vocal and insistent about their beliefs and surely DO shove them
> I just had to comment on the above. The Pro-Life advocates ARE
down the throats of others. By your use of "we" I must assume you
are talking about your own family and your personal beliefs, because
the Pro-life movement is absolutely merciless.
>pregnant women, without knowing anything about their personal
> Pro-Life supporters picket clinics and shout obsceneties at
circumstances or what brought them to the excruciating decision to
termiante a pregnancy. The wave signs and banners with slurs and
condemnations on them, they block entrance to clinics. The lunatic
fringe of this movement has shot and killed people over
their "Defense of Life." I am baffled as to why you would feel
indignant that others would find some of the behavior of the Pro-Life
movement and their campaigns to be intrusive and abusive.
>others who try to judge your lifestyle. I believe you when you say
> I am sorry that you have had to endure the shameful behavior of
you are attacked for your decision to live your lives in a way that
upholds your spiritual beliefs. I get attacked for doing the very
same thing. But remember all the hatred and nastiness that has been
flung from both sides of this issue, before you cry out injustice
over the accusations made against any one side. This debate is a
heated one wherever it springs up because, like religion, it is a
deeply emotional issue for those involved.
>not debating or starting a fight.
> Nanci K.
> Just wanted to point out what I thought was a mistaken statement,
>today!
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm)
> Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
Elizabeth Hill
>Thank you for your response and for helping to make something clear.I'm posting kind of late. Just wanted to say that I originally read "we"
>You are correct in thinking that "we" does mean my husband and me.
>I'd also like to thank you for understanding the nature of the post;
>there are people who have their beliefs and do their best to lives
>them out, whether it's based on spirituality or not.
as meaning a whole political group ("pro-lifers"). Not sure why I read it
that way. Maybe there was a largeish "they" somewhere in the same
paragraph? I don't know. Just wanted to say that it is sometimes easy to
read a meaning that was not what the poster's intent.
A major difficulty with the English language and online discussion is that
some words are so vague. "We" and "you" can enclose groups of almost any
size. (I think facial expressions and body language give more clues in
face to face discussion.) And, setting this discussion aside, I've seen
other discussions get hot when people generalize about "teachers" or "dads"
or "women" or "teens". It's never clear whether the sentence "Women are so
_____" or "Californians are so _____" really means a few women, many
women, a preponderence of women, or every last woman.
(Often, it seems to mean "more than 1/2 of the women I have met" and
provokes fervent disagreement from anyone who has met one or more women who
don't fit the statement.) (I've seen so many online wrangles that fit this
pattern that it isn't funny.)
Maybe the English language needs some modifiers that add extra precision.
I think it is human nature to generalize and categorize. BUT... you all
are free <g> to disagree with this sweeping statement. Generalizations and
categories can be very confining, and can limit thinking.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/3/01 3:27:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
kewlshort1@... writes:
<< I know everyone has their own opinions, and I'm certainly not going to
change anyone's personal opinions. But I get so saddened, and sickened
actually, when people use life situations to justify abortion without even
acknowledging an alternative. >>
Hi, it is fascinating to listen to everyone's opinion, we could make up a
great debate team here. I have always enjoyed listening to debates.
Giving up a child, that is unwanted, for adoption does seem like the obvious
answer. Then the Mother does not have to raise the child and a childless
couple now has a baby. It should be the perfect solution, but it just does
not always seem to happen that way. Maybe that is because the Mom thinks she
can give the baby up, then she has the baby, and we all know how bonding and
love filling birth is. She then changes her mind and just can't or won't part
with the child. Maybe she deludes herself into thinking she will change her
life, maybe she can, most likely she can't. Time passes and it is too hard.
Possibly there was no one to help her find the right road, maybe she has an
addiction that she thought she could kick, or maybe the Father of the child
is in and out of the picture and the problem. Raising a baby is harder than
she thought it would be. The situations that these Mothers find themselves in
is endless but a common thread runs through them all, it is the child who
suffers. I have a friend who worked for years in one of California's homes
for abused children. Her shift was spent trying to help children who had
endured abuse that she said was unbelievable. Most of us (thankfully) cannot
even imagine what these kids had been through. This place was the end of the
road for these kids. They had been abused so severely that they could not be
with the rest of the world. They would be staying at this center until at 18
hopefully they could be released to live a life of their own. If the damage
was not too severe. These kids are the worse scenario but all too real. So
what is the answer. I feel that abortion is better than torture, at least the
child is at peace. I have a favorite author, Wayne Dyer, who says that to
fight against something makes it grow. So if you want to stop war don't be
against war, be for peace. If you want to stop abortion, the answer seems to
be in not stopping abortions but to take away the need to have one. I suppose
the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what are we doing to help
change the life of the children that are already here? How can we make their
lives better? How can we help the Mother who obviously is going to need help
with her new baby? What can be done so there are fewer of unwanted
pregnancies? I know there are some good programs out there but I also know it
is not enough. This is a huge problem that goes far beyond abortions. But we
all know that. I think, (just my opinion here) that the people that are
actively protesting abortion should instead volunteer that time to helping
the children that are already on this earth. Then they would make a
difference. Then they would be working to stop abortion. (End of speech!)
I do not think that debating this issue or any issue is bad. I am not here to
change your opinion, or to have mine changed. But it is interesting and
educational to hear what people have to say. We hear new point to ponder and
we learn something. Sometimes it is hard to not get angry. Perhaps that is
because of the way that opinions are written or because it is easier to not
be fully understood when opinions are stated in the written form. I am not
trying to change anyone, I am just stating my views. And when we are all
talked out I want to part as friends ready to move onto the next subject and
grow from that experience. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we do not, and
both are ok
peace and grace
Candy
kewlshort1@... writes:
<< I know everyone has their own opinions, and I'm certainly not going to
change anyone's personal opinions. But I get so saddened, and sickened
actually, when people use life situations to justify abortion without even
acknowledging an alternative. >>
Hi, it is fascinating to listen to everyone's opinion, we could make up a
great debate team here. I have always enjoyed listening to debates.
Giving up a child, that is unwanted, for adoption does seem like the obvious
answer. Then the Mother does not have to raise the child and a childless
couple now has a baby. It should be the perfect solution, but it just does
not always seem to happen that way. Maybe that is because the Mom thinks she
can give the baby up, then she has the baby, and we all know how bonding and
love filling birth is. She then changes her mind and just can't or won't part
with the child. Maybe she deludes herself into thinking she will change her
life, maybe she can, most likely she can't. Time passes and it is too hard.
Possibly there was no one to help her find the right road, maybe she has an
addiction that she thought she could kick, or maybe the Father of the child
is in and out of the picture and the problem. Raising a baby is harder than
she thought it would be. The situations that these Mothers find themselves in
is endless but a common thread runs through them all, it is the child who
suffers. I have a friend who worked for years in one of California's homes
for abused children. Her shift was spent trying to help children who had
endured abuse that she said was unbelievable. Most of us (thankfully) cannot
even imagine what these kids had been through. This place was the end of the
road for these kids. They had been abused so severely that they could not be
with the rest of the world. They would be staying at this center until at 18
hopefully they could be released to live a life of their own. If the damage
was not too severe. These kids are the worse scenario but all too real. So
what is the answer. I feel that abortion is better than torture, at least the
child is at peace. I have a favorite author, Wayne Dyer, who says that to
fight against something makes it grow. So if you want to stop war don't be
against war, be for peace. If you want to stop abortion, the answer seems to
be in not stopping abortions but to take away the need to have one. I suppose
the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what are we doing to help
change the life of the children that are already here? How can we make their
lives better? How can we help the Mother who obviously is going to need help
with her new baby? What can be done so there are fewer of unwanted
pregnancies? I know there are some good programs out there but I also know it
is not enough. This is a huge problem that goes far beyond abortions. But we
all know that. I think, (just my opinion here) that the people that are
actively protesting abortion should instead volunteer that time to helping
the children that are already on this earth. Then they would make a
difference. Then they would be working to stop abortion. (End of speech!)
I do not think that debating this issue or any issue is bad. I am not here to
change your opinion, or to have mine changed. But it is interesting and
educational to hear what people have to say. We hear new point to ponder and
we learn something. Sometimes it is hard to not get angry. Perhaps that is
because of the way that opinions are written or because it is easier to not
be fully understood when opinions are stated in the written form. I am not
trying to change anyone, I am just stating my views. And when we are all
talked out I want to part as friends ready to move onto the next subject and
grow from that experience. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we do not, and
both are ok
peace and grace
Candy
Sandi & Scott Spaeth
>Giving up a child, that is unwanted, for adoption does seem like the obviousHi everyone! I have been out of town so I am late to this discussion, but
>answer. Then the Mother does not have to raise the child and a childless
>couple now has a baby. It should be the perfect solution, but it just does
>not always seem to happen that way.
I wanted to add my 2 cents here.
Personally, I think most problems do not stem from abortion itself, or the
idea of adoption. Many of the problems come from the fact that we are a
very puritanical society, even to this day. Sex is still a MAJOR
taboo. Most women, it seems to me, do not have abortions because they want
to, but because in reality it is much easier to deal with that personal
anguish than it is the stigma of being impregnated out of wedlock or while
you are a teen. The fact is that most of these people do not have a strong
enough support base to even get them through the *idea* of being pregnant,
let alone either raising the child or putting it up for adoption.
I see so many so called 'pro lifers' (and I hate that term, all of us are
PRO life, no one is PRO abortion or PRO death) turn up their noses at a
young pregnant girl. I had this one friend back in school who got
pregnant, and we wanted to give her a baby shower, but her pro life mother
would not allow us to have it there because it would just 'encourage' her
daughter to more bad behavior! This woman made my friends life a HELL
while she was pregnant and treated that baby as less than human while my
friend lived at home. Sadly, I think this happens a lot.
We have created a society for ourselves in which the decision to end a life
is often times much more acceptable than the treatment we get during the
actual pregnancy, and that is just sad. Girls get kicked out of their
homes, boys leave the girls to do it alone, friends shun, families ignore,
people on the street look down their noses, and the world in general seems
like a mean and evil place.
I know because I have been there myself! I got pregnant with our oldest
when I was 18 (and looked much younger than that). My now husband still
lived at home (he was 21, saving for school). When we found out, we
discussed our options. I was going to move out to my mothers (she lived
out of town) and put the child up for adoption. Scott said that we should
have the child together and be a family, come what may! So, we got an apt
together right before xmas (but waited to tell everyone until after the
holidays). When his parents found out (good pro life catholics) I was not
ALLOWED back in the house. They did not want to see me, hear about me,
know about me, period. They did not want the **NEIGHBORS** to see me
either. They said they would change their tune if we got married, but at
the time we were not sure we wanted to. I mean, a baby does NOT make a
marriage. I hid my pregnancy from my dad for quite some time. But once he
found out it was OH HOW DISAPPOINTED I AM IN YOU!!!!! I was the oldest and
meant to set an example, blah blah blah. My grandmother (also pro life)
was totally HORRIFIED!! How sad for me to RUIN my life at such a young
age!! My friends thankfully stuck by us, but they did make it pretty clear
that they thought we were idiots. I worked at a Bagel shop to help make
ends meet, and the looks and comments I got from some of the customers
brought tears to my eyes!!
After Ian was born, things pretty much only got worse. By that time we had
married, and I was let back in my in laws house (only now I was expected to
be the perfect butt kissing d-i-l and I was NOT playing that game). Every
parenting thing I did, I did WRONG in their eyes. Ian's birth had been
very traumatic, and I ended up with an infection. They put me on
antibiotics (no one asked if I was nursing!) and Ian ended up with
thrush. I had never heard or seen this stuff, and I kept trying to wipe it
off his mouth. I had no idea what caused it. Of course, my mother in law
said it was because I was filthy and I was passing that along to my
baby. What a B&(#&$. You get the idea I think.
So, when Ian was 5 months old, I ended up pregnant again. Here I was
married to a guy I really loved (and who loved me), but because I could not
put myself through what the families would say, we decided to abort that
pregnancy. It was a hard decision, one I regret because I did not make it
on MY grounds, but based on the world around me. I was barely 20 and
pregnant again. The pregnancy with Ian had been so difficult emotionally,
I just was not ready to deal with it again. Even when we did plan our
daughters pregnancy a few years later we got to hear all of the negativity
again!
Sadly, I do not think I am alone in this. I think many young girls find
the idea of carrying through with the pregnancy itself the hard part, not
giving the child up at the end. I think a lot figure it is easier to end
it before it becomes a problem, before they loose the respect of their
parents and peers.
In my opinion, abortion is NOT the problem, it is a symptom. The fact that
we have created a judgmental and unsympathetic society that refuses to
embrace life IS the problem. We shun and belittle instead of helping and
creating a support system for these young women (we would not want to
encourage this behavior after all!!). Instead of giving them help when
they need it, they get treated like dogs and forced to deal with a hard
situation mostly on their own. We would rather keep our children in the
dark than arm them with the information and resources they need to make a
good decision when it comes to sex. We want to pretend that if we refuse
to help them before it comes up, that it will NEVER come up. We like to
pretend that just because we think we have instilled our so called 'good
values' in our kids that they will never make a mistake.
If you really want abortion to end, you need to work on the problems BEFORE
they happen. I do not mean standing out there protesting and preaching and
shunning once the deed is done, by then it is mostly too late. I mean real
EDUCATION, real ALTERNATIVES, real SUPPORT for when something like this
does happen. None of us ever wants our kids to grow up and start having
sex, but it happens. It happens a lot. Even from the best families with
the best values. Hopefully we will instill enough sense in our kids so
that they do not want to go out and to this. I hope that my kids will
understand that the act of sex, though great and pleasurable, can also lead
to the creation of a new life, and that is an awesome responsibility. I
hope that the lines of communication are open enough they will come to me
for advice if they have a relationship intense enough to lead to sex. And
I hope I am strong enough to help them through it without freaking out and
making their decisions for them. I trust them with their education,
hopefully I will trust that they will be making an educated decision when
it comes to sex too. If they do not, and mess up, I will hopefully be able
to help them make whatever decision is best, whether that be abortion,
raising the child, or adoption.
I think unschooling will help though. Our kids have not been raised in an
atmosphere of peer pressure and competition. Their self esteem will be
intact, not destroyed by the school bullies and the system. They will
already know how to make good, educated decision on their own, and not look
to the world at large for acceptance, nor fear its shunning. I do not
think this is a cure all, but I think it is a good start to raising
smarter, much more life savvy kids.
I am starting to ramble! I just wanted to throw out my opinions!
Sandi
--------------------------------------------------------------
"What we want to see is the child in pursuit of knowledge, not knowledge in
pursuit of the child."
-- George Bernard Shaw
Piston Ported Vespas:
http://members.nbci.com/piston_ported/index.html
words
http://www.geocities.com/vespass/words.html
ST Louis Secular Homeschooler's Co-Op
http://www.stlsecularhomeschool.org
-------------------------------------------------------------
[email protected]
Dear Sandi,
Thank you for sharing your story. I'm inspired by you and your husband
creating a family at such a young age and still being together now, having
overcome such obstacles. I think these personal stories are really important.
To me they show that this is a multifaceted issue, not one with just two
sides.
I wanted to be a mother my whole life. For me it is definitely a
"calling." When I got pregnant at 22 I felt like I had waited forever. There
was no way I had figured out adult life but I felt ready for a child. My life
was really untogether and I still lived with my parents but it was definitely
the next step for me.
I feel blessed that my "pro-life" parents were supportive. They had
changed churches a couple of years before (Lutheran) but I was still singing
in our old church. They suggested I switch to their church to spare myself
the judgments of those people. I appreciate this anew after reading your
story. My oldest dd(now 20) and I had a rough beginning but are now part of a
strong and healthy family. I got married when she was 3 and my husband
adopted her. I have been very lucky and gotten pregnant only when I
consciously chose to and each time (3) I was deeply aware that having the
choice to continue was important to me. -Amalia-
Thank you for sharing your story. I'm inspired by you and your husband
creating a family at such a young age and still being together now, having
overcome such obstacles. I think these personal stories are really important.
To me they show that this is a multifaceted issue, not one with just two
sides.
I wanted to be a mother my whole life. For me it is definitely a
"calling." When I got pregnant at 22 I felt like I had waited forever. There
was no way I had figured out adult life but I felt ready for a child. My life
was really untogether and I still lived with my parents but it was definitely
the next step for me.
I feel blessed that my "pro-life" parents were supportive. They had
changed churches a couple of years before (Lutheran) but I was still singing
in our old church. They suggested I switch to their church to spare myself
the judgments of those people. I appreciate this anew after reading your
story. My oldest dd(now 20) and I had a rough beginning but are now part of a
strong and healthy family. I got married when she was 3 and my husband
adopted her. I have been very lucky and gotten pregnant only when I
consciously chose to and each time (3) I was deeply aware that having the
choice to continue was important to me. -Amalia-
Bonnie Painter
I have never heard this argument put so eloquently. Thank you Candy for
taking the time to write this.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Bonnie
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
taking the time to write this.
I couldn't agree with you more.
Bonnie
>From: discovery6@..._________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: pro-life
>Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 08:06:33 EST
>
>In a message dated 2/3/01 3:27:34 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>kewlshort1@... writes:
>
><< I know everyone has their own opinions, and I'm certainly not going to
>change anyone's personal opinions. But I get so saddened, and sickened
>actually, when people use life situations to justify abortion without even
>acknowledging an alternative. >>
>
>
>Hi, it is fascinating to listen to everyone's opinion, we could make up a
>great debate team here. I have always enjoyed listening to debates.
>
>Giving up a child, that is unwanted, for adoption does seem like the
>obvious
>answer. Then the Mother does not have to raise the child and a childless
>couple now has a baby. It should be the perfect solution, but it just does
>not always seem to happen that way. Maybe that is because the Mom thinks
>she
>can give the baby up, then she has the baby, and we all know how bonding
>and
>love filling birth is. She then changes her mind and just can't or won't
>part
>with the child. Maybe she deludes herself into thinking she will change her
>life, maybe she can, most likely she can't. Time passes and it is too hard.
>Possibly there was no one to help her find the right road, maybe she has an
>addiction that she thought she could kick, or maybe the Father of the child
>is in and out of the picture and the problem. Raising a baby is harder than
>she thought it would be. The situations that these Mothers find themselves
>in
>is endless but a common thread runs through them all, it is the child who
>suffers. I have a friend who worked for years in one of California's homes
>for abused children. Her shift was spent trying to help children who had
>endured abuse that she said was unbelievable. Most of us (thankfully)
>cannot
>even imagine what these kids had been through. This place was the end of
>the
>road for these kids. They had been abused so severely that they could not
>be
>with the rest of the world. They would be staying at this center until at
>18
>hopefully they could be released to live a life of their own. If the damage
>was not too severe. These kids are the worse scenario but all too real. So
>what is the answer. I feel that abortion is better than torture, at least
>the
>child is at peace. I have a favorite author, Wayne Dyer, who says that to
>fight against something makes it grow. So if you want to stop war don't be
>against war, be for peace. If you want to stop abortion, the answer seems
>to
>be in not stopping abortions but to take away the need to have one. I
>suppose
>the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what are we doing to help
>change the life of the children that are already here? How can we make
>their
>lives better? How can we help the Mother who obviously is going to need
>help
>with her new baby? What can be done so there are fewer of unwanted
>pregnancies? I know there are some good programs out there but I also know
>it
>is not enough. This is a huge problem that goes far beyond abortions. But
>we
>all know that. I think, (just my opinion here) that the people that are
>actively protesting abortion should instead volunteer that time to helping
>the children that are already on this earth. Then they would make a
>difference. Then they would be working to stop abortion. (End of speech!)
>
>I do not think that debating this issue or any issue is bad. I am not here
>to
>change your opinion, or to have mine changed. But it is interesting and
>educational to hear what people have to say. We hear new point to ponder
>and
>we learn something. Sometimes it is hard to not get angry. Perhaps that is
>because of the way that opinions are written or because it is easier to not
>be fully understood when opinions are stated in the written form. I am not
>trying to change anyone, I am just stating my views. And when we are all
>talked out I want to part as friends ready to move onto the next subject
>and
>grow from that experience. Sometimes we agree and sometimes we do not, and
>both are ok
>peace and grace
>Candy
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Sandi & Scott Spaeth
At 12:41 PM 2/3/01 -0500, you wrote:
relationship. No one really thought we would make it six months, let alone
almost 10 years!! He really is my best friend, and I know we got VERY lucky.
the support you need. I had my tubes tied at the age of 22 because I knew
that two was pretty much all we could handle, emotionally and
financially. I think really understanding your limitations and what you
are capable of can go a long ways towards reducing abortion too. There are
times when that maternal instinct pops up and I feel sort of regretful that
I had my tubes tied, then the bills start pouring in, the kids need new
shoes, the car needs a new water pump, etc. So now my sisters are having
kids and I have tons of nieces to play with (and I can give them back when
they cry/poop/whine hahahah!). My sister Cindy opted to have her tubes
tied at 25 for the same reasons I did (also after her second child). Our
next sister in line (there are 4 of us) is now pregnant and has talked also
about having her tubes tied after this second child. Some are
comfortable having lots of kids. My whole family does not seem to be
(mostly because we watched our own parents flounder because my mother kept
having children in hopes of giving my dad a son, which was something
society had told her: MEN WANTED A SON, which btw my dad had no real
interest in!).
I am starting to ramble again! My point is that a woman and or family
should feel comfortable with their reproductive choices, as you say you
did. It is important to have choices, so that you can really make the
right one.
Sandi
--------------------------------------------------------------
Take no heroes,
Only inspiration.
Piston Ported Vespas:
http://www.piston-ported.hompage.com/index.html
words
http://www.geocities.com/vespass/words.html
ST Louis Secular Homeschooler's Co-Op
http://www.stlsecularhomeschool.org
-------------------------------------------------------------
>Dear Sandi,Thank you for your kind words too! Scott and I have a pretty good
> Thank you for sharing your story. I'm inspired by you and your husband
>creating a family at such a young age and still being together now, having
>overcome such obstacles. I think these personal stories are really important.
>To me they show that this is a multifaceted issue, not one with just two
>sides.
relationship. No one really thought we would make it six months, let alone
almost 10 years!! He really is my best friend, and I know we got VERY lucky.
> I wanted to be a mother my whole life. For me it is definitely aThank you for sharing your story as well!! It is great when you can get
>"calling." When I got pregnant at 22 I felt like I had waited forever. There
>was no way I had figured out adult life but I felt ready for a child. My life
>was really untogether and I still lived with my parents but it was definitely
>the next step for me.
> I feel blessed that my "pro-life" parents were supportive. They had
>changed churches a couple of years before (Lutheran) but I was still singing
>in our old church. They suggested I switch to their church to spare myself
>the judgments of those people. I appreciate this anew after reading your
>story. My oldest dd(now 20) and I had a rough beginning but are now part of a
>strong and healthy family. I got married when she was 3 and my husband
>adopted her. I have been very lucky and gotten pregnant only when I
>consciously chose to and each time (3) I was deeply aware that having the
>choice to continue was important to me. -Amalia-
the support you need. I had my tubes tied at the age of 22 because I knew
that two was pretty much all we could handle, emotionally and
financially. I think really understanding your limitations and what you
are capable of can go a long ways towards reducing abortion too. There are
times when that maternal instinct pops up and I feel sort of regretful that
I had my tubes tied, then the bills start pouring in, the kids need new
shoes, the car needs a new water pump, etc. So now my sisters are having
kids and I have tons of nieces to play with (and I can give them back when
they cry/poop/whine hahahah!). My sister Cindy opted to have her tubes
tied at 25 for the same reasons I did (also after her second child). Our
next sister in line (there are 4 of us) is now pregnant and has talked also
about having her tubes tied after this second child. Some are
comfortable having lots of kids. My whole family does not seem to be
(mostly because we watched our own parents flounder because my mother kept
having children in hopes of giving my dad a son, which was something
society had told her: MEN WANTED A SON, which btw my dad had no real
interest in!).
I am starting to ramble again! My point is that a woman and or family
should feel comfortable with their reproductive choices, as you say you
did. It is important to have choices, so that you can really make the
right one.
Sandi
--------------------------------------------------------------
Take no heroes,
Only inspiration.
Piston Ported Vespas:
http://www.piston-ported.hompage.com/index.html
words
http://www.geocities.com/vespass/words.html
ST Louis Secular Homeschooler's Co-Op
http://www.stlsecularhomeschool.org
-------------------------------------------------------------
Erin M
>I feel that abortion is better than torture, at least theThis I don't agree with.
>child is at peace.
>If you want to stop abortion, the answer seems toHowever this I do. I think we should make abortion illegal as a matter of
>be in not stopping abortions but to take away the need to have one.
principal, but first we need to help provide pregnant young women with
alternatives or they will simply have one anyway.
>I supposeSorry about chopping up your post but those were the points I wanted to
>the questions that we need to ask ourselves is what are we doing to help
>change the life of the children that are already here? How can we make
>their
>lives better? How can we help the Mother who obviously is going to need
>help
>with her new baby? What can be done so there are fewer of unwanted
>pregnancies? I know there are some good programs out there but I also know
>it
>is not enough. This is a huge problem that goes far beyond abortions. But
>we
>all know that. I think, (just my opinion here) that the people that are
>actively protesting abortion should instead volunteer that time to helping
>the children that are already on this earth. Then they would make a
>difference. Then they would be working to stop abortion. (End of speech!)
highlight.
>peace and grace_________________________________________________________________
>Candy
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