[email protected]

I've been on the list for about 3 months now.  My son is 3.  We have been
trying to conceive and are thankfully nearing the end of our first trimester
with fraternal twins, due in august.  My son will be a few weeks away from
his 4th birthday when the babies arrive.  Due to our family's commitment to
the unschooling vision, we have no plans to put him in preschool. We feel
these are the most important years *not* to place a child in an educational
program, due to the delicate nature of the unfolding mind.

Since telling a few friends about the upcoming increase in our family size
and sudden change from a family of 1 to a family of 3, we have been bombarded
with advice:  That even though my son didn't like going with a swim
instructor when he was 2, he has grown and may now really like preschool
(being away from a home based life).  That he may resent the babies as they
grow and say "Oh, now they're awake---now i can't do this project with you
mom", and that he will get a lot out of being with kids his age who do not
compete for his mothers' attention.

I find myself rather defensive to these remarks from well-meaning friends.  I
want to try to keep my son at home, even though i know he will get less of me
during the year he has just turned 4. Caring for two babies will be time
consuming.  I feel hopeful however that it will be enriching for my son,
somehow.  

Any suggestions or experience with keeping life passionate and stimulating
for a 4 year old while we all adjust to big family changes? I just can't
picture toting 2 babes and a 4 year old to the museums and libraries and old
folks homes.......!!!

cath
montreal

[email protected]

In a message dated 01/14/2001 12:31:07 AM !!!First Boot!!!, benliam@...
writes:


I just can't
picture toting 2 babes and a 4 year old to the museums and libraries and
old
folks homes.......!!!

cath




Oh, gosh, why would you??  Stay home.  Have fun with the kids.  4 is still
way young.  Tell your "well-meaning" friends that you have already decided
all of this and you would really appreciate their support.   As I remember,
even just one baby with a toddler made a walk around the block a major
expedition.  Enjoy doing as little as possible!  Rushing around will come
sooner than you need.  Give yourself tiiiiimmmmmeeeee!

Well, that's my 2 cents anyway!

Nance (my plan for tomorrow is to go absolutely nowhere -- after a week
packed with nice activities for the kids -- library and music and Tae Kwon Do
and a special exhibition of TKD and a picnic in a new canoeing park with Dad
and a new reading book (major news here!) for my daughter -- but they are a
bit older -- they are 7 1/2 and 6 -- and I feel like we did too much this
week.  I feel guilty that we already have something planned for Monday AM
pretty early!)

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/01 7:05:19 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
marbleface@... writes:

> > I just can't
> > picture toting 2 babes and a 4 year old to the museums and libraries and
> > old
> > folks homes.......!!!

Maybe try preschool-type activities, lay in a supply of blocks, some crayons,
paint for when Daddy's around or you have help. Get some outdoor access--sand
play is a real winner. Read stories, have books around for him to look
at--all the stuff he'd be doing IN preschool--they wouldn't be going on field
trips all the time either!

:-) Diane

[email protected]

True...the other kids in preschool aren't competing for Mom's
attention...they just don't get any (while they're in preschool, anyway). I
could see him resenting the babies for sending him away every day though.

Maybe you could think of it as a "unit study" program, and this unit is on
home economics. You may find that he's so much help with the twins, you'd
have a hard time if you sent him to preschool.

Also, with new twins, getting everyone up, fed, dressed and ready to go take
him to preschool by 9 am might be a tad stressful, then just as you recover
from that, it's time to get everyone fed again, dressed again and in the
carseats again to pick him up.

All in all (IMHO) I think everyone benefits by keeping him home where he
belongs, and everyone would have a lot tougher time by sending him away.

:-) Diane

> instructor when he was 2, he has grown and may now really like preschool
> (being away from a home based life). That he may resent the babies as
they
> grow and say "Oh, now they're awake---now i can't do this project with you
> mom", and that he will get a lot out of being with kids his age who do not
> compete for his mothers' attention.
>
> I find myself rather defensive to these remarks from well-meaning friends.

> I
> want to try to keep my son at home, even though i know he will get less of
> me
> during the year he has just turned 4. Caring for two babies will be time
> consuming. I feel hopeful however that it will be enriching for my son,
> somehow.
>
> Any suggestions or experience with keeping life passionate and stimulating
> for a 4 year old while we all adjust to big family changes? I just can't
> picture toting 2 babes and a 4 year old to the museums and libraries and
old
> folks homes.......!!!
>
> cath
> montreal

dawn

well, i haven't had twins, but i'm sure my 5 and 8 yr olds are finding
life exciting and engaging with the baby around. In fact, now that I'm
less likely to go running off to fascinating places and to not have them
in a ton of activities, we are all finding ourselves more centered and
calm than ever before. No way would i be able to get them up and ready
for school without doing seriuos psychological harm to all of us;) I tell
everyone we are taking this year off to adjust to the baby. Next year,
I'll tell them we are taking the year off becuase it's hard to do anyting
with a toddler getting in the way, then the following year, with a two
year old, and hten we all know how annoying 3 yr olds can be, and by the
time he's 4, the other two will be literate and numerate and my job will
be finished;)


dawn h-s
**********
Some who support more coercive strategies assume that children will run
wild if they are not controlled. However, the children for whom this is
true typically turn out to be those accustomed to being controlled--those
who are not trusted, given explanations, encouraged to think for
themselves, helped to develop and internalize good values, and so
on. Control breeds the need for more control, which is then used to
justify the use of control.

---Alfie Kohn, Punished by Rewards, p. 33.
**********

uebinger robyn

If you sent your son to preschool he would be missing out on one of the most
important lessons of his life. Let him experience the joy of giving, caring,
and sharing with someone else. Don't forget learning doesn't just come from
books, field trips, or craft projects. Let him watch you parent and love
your twins. He will learn a much more valuable lesson from you. He will
learn what it is to be responsible for someone else. These are the virtues
that will help him grow to be a wonderful man. I am the mother of 4. My
husband delivered my youngest at home with the other 3 looking on. Anything
is possible! Good luck! This list is so great because it helps remind me
what wonderful people are in this world.


>From: benliam@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] can i do this??
>Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:29:50 EST
>
>I've been on the list for about 3 months now. My son is 3. We have been
>trying to conceive and are thankfully nearing the end of our first
>trimester
>with fraternal twins, due in august. My son will be a few weeks away from
>his 4th birthday when the babies arrive. Due to our family's commitment to
>the unschooling vision, we have no plans to put him in preschool. We feel
>these are the most important years *not* to place a child in an educational
>program, due to the delicate nature of the unfolding mind.
>
>Since telling a few friends about the upcoming increase in our family size
>and sudden change from a family of 1 to a family of 3, we have been
>bombarded
>with advice: That even though my son didn't like going with a swim
>instructor when he was 2, he has grown and may now really like preschool
>(being away from a home based life). That he may resent the babies as they
>grow and say "Oh, now they're awake---now i can't do this project with you
>mom", and that he will get a lot out of being with kids his age who do not
>compete for his mothers' attention.
>
>I find myself rather defensive to these remarks from well-meaning friends.
>I
>want to try to keep my son at home, even though i know he will get less of
>me
>during the year he has just turned 4. Caring for two babies will be time
>consuming. I feel hopeful however that it will be enriching for my son,
>somehow.
>
>Any suggestions or experience with keeping life passionate and stimulating
>for a 4 year old while we all adjust to big family changes? I just can't
>picture toting 2 babes and a 4 year old to the museums and libraries and
>old
>folks homes.......!!!
>
>cath
>montreal

_________________________________________________________________
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Samantha Stopple

So I am not going to say you can't do it. I am going
to say that I did have my dd go to preschool after her
brother was born. She really enjoyed it. I really
needed the support of having a place I could count on
to take her so I could get some down time. Ds tended
to nap while dd was in at preschool. It was what kept
me sane during the girst year after ds was born.

I would say if you need to have time. If preschool
would help you I thinks its okay to do (not that you
need my permision). Mainly I don't think we should
feel guilty if we need to reach out for help.
Sometimes it might be preschool sometimes it might be
family.

Peace,
Samantha

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Julie

Dear Cath
Firstly, Congratulations!
Secondly, why do these people think he will get the attention he needs from being one of 30 when they don't think he will get it being one of three? 
It could be that many of them are worried about you.  How could you possibly cope when they don't think they could?  How would you like to get up every morning in a rush and try to get him to preschool?  Talk about stress.
 
My eldest had just turned four when we took her out of the local nusery school. She had only been going mornings for one term. (Although schooling doesnot officially start until the term they turn 5 here in England , it is pretty much common practice to put them in Nursery the term they turn 4 )   When we took her out I had a 6 month old baby and I remember saying to the head, that this decision was not permanent and we could be back by the time she turned 5, and one of the examples I used was if I were to have another baby.  How could I possibly cope? 
Well, here I am two more babies later.  The youngest is 15 months old, and yes having a toddler does stop us from doing things.  I never found it a problem when they were babies.  It's toddlers that get me.  We can do no painting, lego, baking, anything that she doesn't get her hands into.  SOmetimes it is a pain and sometimes it is great fun to watch (basically it depends on my mood and whether or not I mind cleaning up :-) )
I have found that it is very important for us to be together as we all adjust to a new person.  It has taken us at least a year every time.  I read a lot of stories to them while I am nursing, I even beep like a casstte tape when it is time to turn the page. Sometimes they use the computer.  We have a lot of conversations while hands are busy doing other things, like changing nappies. We have in the past gone to a lot of coffee mornings, LLLers and like minded people .  It was easy to just plop down on somebody else's sofa.  I think it is really important for us to be together, to be able to grab those precious moments when the baby is asleep, or the siblings are quiet with a video so that I can do something with the eldest, or the youngest. I want to be here when the four year old walks up to me with his revelation that there are bones inside you body....I may be occupied but we are still TOGETHER. Ans that is the 'real world' experience that everybpdy is so worried about, isn't it? My ears and my heart are still there for them all. 
 
The same day that our daughter was born upstairs, a woman down the street had a little boy.  SHe was in hospital and they still sent their 12 year old daughter to school.  She didn't get tosee her brother for a couple of days.  Even the day they brought him home from hospital, she was at school. I sometimes get the feeling that she gets to play with our baby more than she gets to play with her own. 
That is not the life for us.
 
yes it is hard.  Yes, he will want you more than you will be able to give. Yes you will feel guilty. But it is so much better than sending them away.
Good luck!
Peace
Julie 

Kerry Kibort

Did it ever occur to your "well meaning" friends that
shoving your son out the door as soon as the babies
get there will send a message of "got new babies now,
dont need you" to him? Geez, people can be dumb when
there trying to be smart!!
Go with your instincts. Your son will have leaps in
self esteem when he sees what a huge help he CAN (not
must) be to you.
As far as "activities", I agree with the others---
crayons, paint, legos, trains- whatever. Home holds
all a preschooler needs when your a loving parent.
:)Kerry

DiamondAir

From: benliam@...
>I want to try to keep my son at home, even though i
>know he will get less of me
>during the year he has just turned 4. Caring for two babies will be time
>consuming. I feel hopeful however that it will be enriching for my son,
>somehow.
>
>Any suggestions or experience with keeping life passionate and
stimulating
>for a 4 year old while we all adjust to big family changes? I just can't
>picture toting 2 babes and a 4 year old to the museums and libraries and
>old folks homes.......!!!

My son was just over 3 when our daughter was born. Yes, it was a big
adjustment, but also enriching for all of us. Some of the best advice I got
was "give yourself 6 weeks for things to settle out after the baby is born",
and I would add to that "then give yourself 6 more weeks, then 6 more weeks,
then..." :-) It seems that every month or two with a new baby (or in your
case two) comes with new challenges. As some things get easier, something
else gets harder. At first when the babes are little, they will spend a lot
of time nursing or napping and so you can most likely get lots of books read
while nursing or lying down with the babies. Then as they become more alert,
there will be times when they will sit or lie near you and you can do crafts
stuff on the floor - they won't be mobile enough to put beads or playdough
in their mouth. Once they become mobile, things get trickier. If you're
lucky, they will have settled into some sort of predictable nap routine and
possibly you can do stuff with your oldest then, otherwise some stuff will
have to be shelved until they're past the oral stage. At around 1 year, they
really get into imitating mom, so we've found that this is a good age to do
projects together, like cooking and cleaning where we all do it together. I
give my babe some measuring cups and flour to play with and she thinks she
is "baking" too. I also got some small baking stuff (rolling pins, wooden
spoons) from IKEA for cheap and she uses those to "cook". Or we sweep the
floors or dust together. Everything takes forever, but that's the way it is
:-)

Yes, your son will get less of your time, you will most likely feel guilty,
he will sometimes feel angry or upset. OTOH, he will get siblings which can
be a great joy in themselves. I love to watch my kiddos playing together and
I also know as my daughter's imagination begins to bloom they will have more
and more fun together. Yes, preschool can give you a break to have time just
to parent the two babes, but it also will add some stresses (schedule,
driving with babies in carseats), and it will remove your son from this new
family that is his reality. I think it's much less stressful on the child to
have them be an active part of their new sibling's lives. I wouldn't have
missed all the special moments between my son and our baby daughter for
anything (of course, now that she can get into his legos and wreck his train
layouts, it's a bit tougher, LOL!).

As far as activities go, if you get a double-stroller you can take the
kiddos out in the great museum of life - out for nature walks and such. It
doesn't even have to be anywhere especially important as a destination. My
son's favorite site last summer was a cluster of trees in an empty lot that
he dubbed "The acorn fairy trees". We would walk or bike there and I would
sit and nurse my daughter in the shade and he would make little beds from
acorn shells for the fairies - these are some of the best memories of last
summer and it didn't involve any great amount of thought or energy, just a
few snacks and a walk to a small spot. You can help your son create sacred
spaces - we've piled up pillows in the hall to make a special fort for my
son, or gone to special places outdoors he likes - and tell stories about
these places. That doesn't involve a book or any other accoutrements, only
your imagination and voice. I've also found that singing helps keep life
interesting and more peaceful around here - we have songs for everything
(cooking, cleaning, bedtime, teeth brushing, baths, meals), and sometimes
getting into a routine (not enforced or rigid, but as a guideline) can help
keep everyone's sanity.

Best of luck to you, you know that you will get lots of support for your
decision to keep your family at home together here!


Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "An archeologist is someone interested in old
bones, like Grandma's!!"
and Asa (10/5/99) who her brother calls "turbo baby"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

DiamondAir

> From: "uebinger robyn" <emersonsage@...>
>I am the mother of 4. My
> husband delivered my youngest at home with the other 3 looking on.
Anything
> is possible! Good luck! This list is so great because it helps remind me
> what wonderful people are in this world.


Ah, this brings back wonderful memories of my son's face peering over our
birth tub as my husband and I lifted our baby daughter into the world
together!! What a precious gift for siblings to witness the miracle of new
life entering the world.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "An archeologist is someone interested in old
bones, like Grandma's!!"
and Asa (10/5/99) who her brother calls "turbo baby"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

Tracy Oldfield

I've been feeling tired and finding it hard to put myself to do the
things I want to do recently, and I've just had a good suggestion, so
I'll pass it on. Teenagers or college students might exchange
spending time with the children, or helping around the house, for
things you could do, like transport or typing up papers, giving them
'net access for their projects, perhaps (this is good, needs no
physical involvement on your part). If nothing else, the company
would probably be helpful, I know I feel isolated at times.

HTH
Tracy

> I've been on the list for about 3 months now. My son is 3. We have
> been trying to conceive and are thankfully nearing the end of our
> first trimester with fraternal twins, due in august. My son will be a
> few weeks away from his 4th birthday when the babies arrive. Due to
> our family's commitment to the unschooling vision, we have no plans to
> put him in preschool. We feel these are the most important years *not*
> to place a child in an educational program, due to the delicate nature
> of the unfolding mind.
>
> Since telling a few friends about the upcoming increase in our family
> size and sudden change from a family of 1 to a family of 3, we have
> been bombarded with advice: That even though my son didn't like going
> with a swim instructor when he was 2, he has grown and may now really
> like preschool (being away from a home based life). That he may
> resent the babies as they grow and say "Oh, now they're awake---now i
> can't do this project with you mom", and that he will get a lot out of
> being with kids his age who do not compete for his mothers' attention.
>
> I find myself rather defensive to these remarks from well-meaning
> friends. I want to try to keep my son at home, even though i know he
> will get less of me during the year he has just turned 4. Caring for
> two babies will be time consuming. I feel hopeful however that it
> will be enriching for my son, somehow.
>
> Any suggestions or experience with keeping life passionate and
> stimulating for a 4 year old while we all adjust to big family
> changes? I just can't picture toting 2 babes and a 4 year old to the
> museums and libraries and old folks homes.......!!!
>
> cath
> montreal
>

[email protected]

I discussed this question with my two older kids here. My 20yo daughter,
Jenny, says that unschooling with younger siblings around taught her several
things. Most importantly she says she has no illusions about what's involved
in having babies. She witnessed her brother's birth when she was 4 3/4 and
was almost 9 when her sister was born. She knows just how much having babies
ties one down and is very unlikely to become a mother before she's ready.
My 15yo son says it's hard enough to have a new sibling without being
also "sent away" to preschool. He was very affected by his younger sister's
birth so for him this would certainly have been true. Even though my kids
have a fairly high level of conflict they are also close and I feel confident
they will be good friends when they are all adults. They're getting there
slowly but surely:>) -Amalia-