Elizabeth Hill

>Its seems that some of the most popular books out
>thier about homeschooling that talk mostly about kids
>that are gifted (atleasts thats how I percieve it).
>
>So I guess its hard to not fall into this axiety trap
>of wanting out children to excell in something. I know
>I have in the past and go through times of wanting to
>find those gifts in my children.

Those books stir up horrible competitive feelings in me, so I don't enjoy
them at all, and I usually don't recommend them to others.

Betsy

[email protected]

<< However, if I dont direct him in
some way with guidelines, he would spend the day playing nintendo and game
boy with pokemon games. For example, today he told me he was going to read
(yeah!) but he chose reading the Pokemon Silver handbook. >>

My first impulse was to ask you to try to get over the "ADD" and "IQ"
obstacles.
Okay. I've gone with my first impulse.

Reading about ships is NOT better than reading about Pokemon.
Your first impulse was probably to read the sentence before and think I was
an idiot.

I'm not an idiot. If you want unschooling to work, you need to get over your
own prejudices about what has "educational value." Now that I've probably
totally irritated you, I recommend marking this date on the calendar with
"Sandra Dodd really pissed me off" or whatever, and then go ahead and do, and
read, and observe, and live, and see how long it takes for you to realize
what good advice I gave you on January 9th, and how much you wish you'd've
just taken it then instead of waiting X# of days/weeks/months. I hope it's
not years.

<< I've only allowed "educational games" to be purchased so she's
doing math, geography, science, etc. >>

There really is a HUGE amount of learning to be had outside of "educational"
materials. My kids, too, have played many long hours of educational computer
games, and still do, but my boys have learned tons from the battle and
strategy games like Civilization and Legions.

<<However, if I dont direct him in
some way with guidelines, he would...>>

This is something you do not know.
If you always direct him in some way, you will never, as long as you live,
know what would have happened if you hadn't directed him. And until you stop
directing, he will not be learning on his own.

Rough, but true.

Sandra the sometimes-rough-but-true

Sue

Sandra wrote:

> My first impulse was to ask you to try to get over the "ADD" and "IQ"
> obstacles.
> Okay. I've gone with my first impulse.

Oh, Sandra, how I wanted to write just that, my second son was labelled by
the school system as "hyperactive" andI was told of his genius level IQ, and
how he wasn't working to his potential so I should have him drugged...
Like Hell I told them, the fault is in the system not my kid, if he can't
sit still and be bored all day without being disruptive, so what as neither
could most adults I know.
Both of these are just labels with little significance in the scheme of
things, I'll always recall how the teachers and my Mother reacted to the
news of my IQ... I always wished I had purposely flunked the dumb test.
After the fact I was always being nagged at school and at home about how I
should be the top of my grade.. blah, blah, blah... I HATED it, my Mother
wanted me to join Mensa, but I had no desire to be a part of such an eletist
organisation.

> <<However, if I dont direct him in
> some way with guidelines, he would...>>
>
> This is something you do not know.
> If you always direct him in some way, you will never, as long as you
live,
> know what would have happened if you hadn't directed him. And until you
stop
> directing, he will not be learning on his own.

So right, it's like never allowing a toddler to walk because he might fall.
If you never give a child the freedom to learn on his/her own, how will you
ever know what the child will do. My kids in basically forcing me to allow
them to unschool did themselves and me a great favor... no more playing
teacher and trying to work out what the important facts they HAD to know
were. They figured it out for themselves.

Sue

Samantha Stopple

This is maybe but isn't directly related to this
thread. But I have been thinking about the gifts each
of has to bring to this world, homschooling/
unschooling, and the stories/books we read about many
homeschoolers/ unschoolers that makes it appear that
of we homeschool out children we can create genius's
or gifted children.

Its seems that some of the most popular books out
thier about homeschooling that talk mostly about kids
that are gifted (atleasts thats how I percieve it).

So I guess its hard to not fall into this axiety trap
of wanting out children to excell in something. I know
I have in the past and go through times of wanting to
find those gifts in my children.

I see it to some extent currently with my son (only 2
years). When ever we go anywhere with a piano he is
drawn to it. So do we bite the bullet and figure out
how to get one? I have a small desire to learn to play
piano again. I didn't take lessons until I was in
highschool. I loved playing the 'moonlight sonata' and
some scot joplin. We have plenty of hand held
intruments around.

I see my dd who is very dramatic both in her
personality and her play. She likes to look herself in
the mirror and play with her facial expressions when
she is talking. So I often think oh acting for her
maybe.

So when I see these things and think I am projecting
or maybe not. Or I wanting something special/
something to put my kids in a box to be something. Or
maybe its the trap up "keeping up with the Jones"

Got any words of wisdom anyone? Sandra?

Peace,
Samantha


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Cory and Amy Nelson

I really understand where you're coming from with your statement about
home/unschoolers always wanting their children to excel or be seen as genius
material. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the simple fact that more
people will be critical of what our children are learning because *we're*
teaching or guiding them rather than certified teachers (for the most part).

But isn't it a fact that most home/unschoolers do excel at their learning?
So why shouldn't we look at it from the point of view that if every child
had the chance to control their education through home/unschooling that
perhaps every child would be considered a genius or gifted? I think this
would be much more common if there were fewer kids who enjoyed learning and
were given the chance.


Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
"The hardest to learn was the least complicated" -Indigo Girls

Tracy Oldfield

Part of it, for me anyway, is like expecting them to be
the best-behaved because one's been on a LLL HRE
workshop :-) We're doing something different,
therefore to prove that it's good to be doing this
different thing, our children have to be better than
everyone else's. I think I'm getting over this now :-)

Tracy


I really understand where you're coming from with your
statement about
home/unschoolers always wanting their children to excel
or be seen as genius
material. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the
simple fact that more
people will be critical of what our children are
learning because *we're*
teaching or guiding them rather than certified teachers
(for the most part).

But isn't it a fact that most home/unschoolers do excel
at their learning?
So why shouldn't we look at it from the point of view
that if every child
had the chance to control their education through
home/unschooling that
perhaps every child would be considered a genius or
gifted? I think this
would be much more common if there were fewer kids who
enjoyed learning and
were given the chance.


Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
"The hardest to learn was the least complicated" -
Indigo Girls

Elizabeth Hill

A couple of books that are about amazingly talented kids are:

_And the Skylark Sings for Me_

plus _Child's Work_ and _Better than School_ by Nancy Wallace.

The Colfax kids are also very impressive, although I don't think the books
Homeschooling for Excellence and Hard Times in Paradise dwell exclusively
on the details of what the kids did. (At least that's not what I remember
most from those books.)

Growing without Schooling magazine is usually also full of the
accomplishments of unschooling kids, many of whom are *very* accomplished
in their chosen interests.

Betsy

Julie

Hello all
this point comes up alot when I try to explain our way of life to others. I
use the research to point out that home-educated children outperform their
schooled peers in just about everything. But my belief in "unschooling'
means that I often do not teach them anything. I am here to help them live
their lives the way they want, not treating childhood as a training ground
for adulthood. I find it distressing when people unschool as long as their
children are doing things that they approve of, or doing lots of academic
stuff, but then become strict and stifling as soon as it appears that the
children are going in their own direction. That people sometimes talk about
unschooling as a teaching method is ridiculous. That people think
unschooling is okay as long as you have children who are accomplishing
things also disturbs me. I know of children who do not read, but are read
to, and they have immense thinking abilities. I know children who are
amazing who have never done anything but play Magic and Playstation and
other war games. I know children who are thought of as slow, but their
parents dedication to unschooling meant that it was not as issue, and one
day they woke up and wanted to do exams and go to university (and did). I
think that the use of the genius example has its place. It helps to explain
to outsiders, it helps many of us to see that our children are not going to
suffer BECAUSE they are home- educated, but it does often undremine our
confidence in ourselves and our children to read about all of these
exceptional people.

I remember hearing John Taylor Gatto talk at a conference in London. He
used the word "miracle" to describe young people who had accomplished much
while they were young, settign up businesses etc. The problem is that it
isn't a miracle. So many young people would accomplish so much if they were
not held back by institutions and people who force them to live lives
according to external motivation. But wehter or not WE see them as
accomplishing much is not the point. It is whether or not THEY feel that
they have accomplished something that is important. Winning the regional
Pokemon tournement may not be held up by home-educators as great an
accomplishment as winning the regional spelling bee, but that is not for us
to decide. It is still a great accomplishment. Finding the courage to
partake when you know you are going to lose is equally great.
I am beginning to ramble but I think my point is that achievemnt and success
are only relevant according to our own personal goals. To objectify them
and use, money or status or academics as a measure of success only leads to
disatisfied human beings.

Peace
Julie

> I really understand where you're coming from with your statement about
> home/unschoolers always wanting their children to excel or be seen as
genius
> material. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with the simple fact that more
> people will be critical of what our children are learning because *we're*
> teaching or guiding them rather than certified teachers (for the most
part).
>
> But isn't it a fact that most home/unschoolers do excel at their learning?
> So why shouldn't we look at it from the point of view that if every child
> had the chance to control their education through home/unschooling that
> perhaps every child would be considered a genius or gifted? I think this
> would be much more common if there were fewer kids who enjoyed learning
and
> were given the chance.
>
>
> Amy
> Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
> "The hardest to learn was the least complicated" -Indigo Girls
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>

Cory and Amy Nelson

I definitely never want to project the idea to my daughter that she has to
be the best at something or live up to a higher standard because of
un/homeschooling. I just want her to enjoy learning and to be happy with
what she does. I'm sure this issue will become much more pertinent as she
gets older. I'm just dealing with an 18-month-old now :).

Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
"The hardest to learn was the least complicated" -Indigo Girls

> Part of it, for me anyway, is like expecting them to be
> the best-behaved because one's been on a LLL HRE
> workshop :-) We're doing something different,
> therefore to prove that it's good to be doing this
> different thing, our children have to be better than
> everyone else's. I think I'm getting over this now :-)

Cory and Amy Nelson

Well said, Julie.

Amy
Mama to Accalia (6/14/99)
"The hardest to learn was the least complicated" -Indigo Girls

> I am beginning to ramble but I think my point is that achievemnt and success
> are only relevant according to our own personal goals. To objectify them
> and use, money or status or academics as a measure of success only leads to
> disatisfied human beings.

Bobbie

know what, sandra? you rock.
as far as I can tell anyway.
I'm sure you've had your share of people not being
able to swallow you easily, being as you certainly
speak your mind quite frankly and some people don't
take that well. :)
but I think you rock.
just thought I'd share.

-bobbie
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> << However, if I dont direct him in
> some way with guidelines, he would spend the day
> playing nintendo and game
> boy with pokemon games. For example, today he told
> me he was going to read
> (yeah!) but he chose reading the Pokemon Silver
> handbook. >>
>
> My first impulse was to ask you to try to get over
> the "ADD" and "IQ"
> obstacles.
> Okay. I've gone with my first impulse.
>
> Reading about ships is NOT better than reading about
> Pokemon.
> Your first impulse was probably to read the sentence
> before and think I was
> an idiot.
>
> I'm not an idiot. If you want unschooling to work,
> you need to get over your
> own prejudices about what has "educational value."
> Now that I've probably
> totally irritated you, I recommend marking this date
> on the calendar with
> "Sandra Dodd really pissed me off" or whatever, and
> then go ahead and do, and
> read, and observe, and live, and see how long it
> takes for you to realize
> what good advice I gave you on January 9th, and how
> much you wish you'd've
> just taken it then instead of waiting X# of
> days/weeks/months. I hope it's
> not years.
>
> << I've only allowed "educational games" to be
> purchased so she's
> doing math, geography, science, etc. >>
>
> There really is a HUGE amount of learning to be had
> outside of "educational"
> materials. My kids, too, have played many long
> hours of educational computer
> games, and still do, but my boys have learned tons
> from the battle and
> strategy games like Civilization and Legions.
>
> <<However, if I dont direct him in
> some way with guidelines, he would...>>
>
> This is something you do not know.
> If you always direct him in some way, you will
> never, as long as you live,
> know what would have happened if you hadn't directed
> him. And until you stop
> directing, he will not be learning on his own.
>
> Rough, but true.
>
> Sandra the sometimes-rough-but-true
>


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