Re: Re: Holocaust (was Parenting etc...)
[email protected]
I certainly do not feel this is something that she needs to know right now...
personally, I feel this is something that she *must* know about -- no
excuses... but perhaps the suggestion that 7 is a very tender age to learn
about such hardships... My interest for doing the activity now is to
coincide with the memorial that recently was errected in our city... I
actually was thinking of doing the activity at night for older children, but
surely there are "issues" that you (as parents) feel are important for your
children to know... ? (this doesn't include things like reading, math, etc.
which they will eventually acquire out of necessity to get by in the world...)
Kathie
personally, I feel this is something that she *must* know about -- no
excuses... but perhaps the suggestion that 7 is a very tender age to learn
about such hardships... My interest for doing the activity now is to
coincide with the memorial that recently was errected in our city... I
actually was thinking of doing the activity at night for older children, but
surely there are "issues" that you (as parents) feel are important for your
children to know... ? (this doesn't include things like reading, math, etc.
which they will eventually acquire out of necessity to get by in the world...)
Kathie
Pam Hartley
----------
child insisting that she know about something/learn about something
(anything, even cheerful things) when she's not ready and interested.
By all means, delve into the holocaust yourself if you feel a need for it,
but recognize that it's *your* need and your project. If your daughter does
come to show interest now or in future, you can share what you've learned.
And you can certainly share your knowledge with any of the homeschooling
group who'd like to learn it.
It's extremely unlikely that she'll die of old age without learning about
the Holocaust. You're not trying to keep it from her. If she does get to be
older and hasn't a clue about it, you could ask her as a favor to you to sit
down and talk it over, that it's knowledge that *you* feel is extremely
important and that you'd like to share it with her.
She does not necessarily need to know about it today, tomorrow, next month,
or by the time she's 11.75 years old. If she gains her knowledge at 11.85
years old, nothing terrible will come of it.
Just out of curiousity, do you feel this way about other things (she *must*
learn to add and subtract this week or this month, she *must* learn some
chemistry by next year, etc.) or is this just this particular subject? If it
is *just* the Holocaust, it would be interesting (to me) to delve further
into my own mind and into *why* I thought it was so important that my 7 year
old learn this right at this very time.
Pam
pamhartley@...
>From: KSeebose@...Yes. :) IMHO, you (generic, not you personally) can do a lot of damage to a
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Parenting site of the month
>Date: Mon, Jul 12, 1999, 9:42 AM
>
>I just joined this loop after hsing for a couple of years... my girls are 5,
>7 and 1... I have a question for anyone open to answer it... In our
>homeschooling support group one of our contributions to the group is to plan
>an activity/field trip per semester. I really want to plan one on the
>Holocaust for a variety of reason... I'm sensing indifference from my 7 year
>old, at just the beginning of my research... this infuriates me... I'm being
>unrealisitic (kick me.. I know! :-) But this is important to me and I
>believe she needs to know about this. Perhaps with further research it may
>pique (sp? right word even?) her interest...
>
>Thoughts...? Comments?
child insisting that she know about something/learn about something
(anything, even cheerful things) when she's not ready and interested.
By all means, delve into the holocaust yourself if you feel a need for it,
but recognize that it's *your* need and your project. If your daughter does
come to show interest now or in future, you can share what you've learned.
And you can certainly share your knowledge with any of the homeschooling
group who'd like to learn it.
It's extremely unlikely that she'll die of old age without learning about
the Holocaust. You're not trying to keep it from her. If she does get to be
older and hasn't a clue about it, you could ask her as a favor to you to sit
down and talk it over, that it's knowledge that *you* feel is extremely
important and that you'd like to share it with her.
She does not necessarily need to know about it today, tomorrow, next month,
or by the time she's 11.75 years old. If she gains her knowledge at 11.85
years old, nothing terrible will come of it.
Just out of curiousity, do you feel this way about other things (she *must*
learn to add and subtract this week or this month, she *must* learn some
chemistry by next year, etc.) or is this just this particular subject? If it
is *just* the Holocaust, it would be interesting (to me) to delve further
into my own mind and into *why* I thought it was so important that my 7 year
old learn this right at this very time.
Pam
pamhartley@...
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/12/99 6:07:45 PM !!!First Boot!!!, KSeebose@...
writes:
<< I
actually was thinking of doing the activity at night for older children, but
surely there are "issues" that you (as parents) feel are important for your
children to know... ? (this doesn't include things like reading, math, >>
Yes - slavery springs to mind. But age appropriate (and child appropriate)
discussion. I won't let them watch certain movies yet because of the
violence (or the news for that matter, some nights). The same high level of
supervision has to apply to the content of their academic and world studies.
Nance
writes:
<< I
actually was thinking of doing the activity at night for older children, but
surely there are "issues" that you (as parents) feel are important for your
children to know... ? (this doesn't include things like reading, math, >>
Yes - slavery springs to mind. But age appropriate (and child appropriate)
discussion. I won't let them watch certain movies yet because of the
violence (or the news for that matter, some nights). The same high level of
supervision has to apply to the content of their academic and world studies.
Nance
Pam Hartley
----------
either now or in the future. I think it's important for my children to know
how to cook and clean for themselves, how to train a dog, how to swim, the
history of humanity, how to understand the scientific method and conduct
useful experiments, to know the history of the Holocaust, the history of
minority oppression (including that of women, which they will become) and
why Penelope Pitstop doesn't annoy me when she stands around shrieking
"Hay-ulp!" even though you'd think it would go against my idealogy of
women's strength.
I just don't think that these "things to know" need to be on a certain
timetable. They will come up as they are wanted and needed. If they don't
come up I will bring them up myself and give my children the option of
taking hold of them, but I will not force learning. If my children truly do
not ever want to learn to train a dog I will worry over that, I will wish it
could be different, I will hope that someday, before I die, they will come
to me and say, "I learned to train a dog". But if they don't, ultimately it
is their life and I have done my job in being available and interested and
offering them the world. The rest is up to them, and I would consider it
extremely intrusive (and a waste of time on both our parts) for me to insist
that they learn something right now just because I think they should, not
for any real, immediate and obvious need.
Pam
>From: KSeebose@...Sure, there are lots of things I think are important for children to know,
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holocaust (was Parenting etc...)
>Date: Mon, Jul 12, 1999, 10:07 AM
>
> I
>actually was thinking of doing the activity at night for older children, but
>surely there are "issues" that you (as parents) feel are important for your
>children to know... ? (this doesn't include things like reading, math, etc.
>which they will eventually acquire out of necessity to get by in the world...)
either now or in the future. I think it's important for my children to know
how to cook and clean for themselves, how to train a dog, how to swim, the
history of humanity, how to understand the scientific method and conduct
useful experiments, to know the history of the Holocaust, the history of
minority oppression (including that of women, which they will become) and
why Penelope Pitstop doesn't annoy me when she stands around shrieking
"Hay-ulp!" even though you'd think it would go against my idealogy of
women's strength.
I just don't think that these "things to know" need to be on a certain
timetable. They will come up as they are wanted and needed. If they don't
come up I will bring them up myself and give my children the option of
taking hold of them, but I will not force learning. If my children truly do
not ever want to learn to train a dog I will worry over that, I will wish it
could be different, I will hope that someday, before I die, they will come
to me and say, "I learned to train a dog". But if they don't, ultimately it
is their life and I have done my job in being available and interested and
offering them the world. The rest is up to them, and I would consider it
extremely intrusive (and a waste of time on both our parts) for me to insist
that they learn something right now just because I think they should, not
for any real, immediate and obvious need.
Pam
A.Y.
Well, I'm going to go against the popular opinion. I don't think age matters at
all. If you follow an interest, the child will tell you how much, how in depth
ect... to go with a subject. My six yr old just had an interest in slavery. We
read some, talked some, and the subject faded. No, we didn't go into a lot of
depth, but he got what he needed.
As far as the Holocaust, I think if you daughter is not interested, you probably
in for a fight. (Ask me how I know :) You might be happier to follow
something she wants to do for a field trip, and the keep in mind the monument for
when she shows and interest.
But, no one knows you daughter but you and she.
Ann
all. If you follow an interest, the child will tell you how much, how in depth
ect... to go with a subject. My six yr old just had an interest in slavery. We
read some, talked some, and the subject faded. No, we didn't go into a lot of
depth, but he got what he needed.
As far as the Holocaust, I think if you daughter is not interested, you probably
in for a fight. (Ask me how I know :) You might be happier to follow
something she wants to do for a field trip, and the keep in mind the monument for
when she shows and interest.
But, no one knows you daughter but you and she.
Ann
[email protected]
Hi...
<< Yes, there certainly are and the Holocaust is one of them. >>
I'm new to the list, but just wanted to pipe in here.
I think there are other ways to introduce my children to issues without
necessarily dive right in. Especially when I try to take their cues.
For example, my older children (12,10,8 and 6) are at this moment watching
Sound of Music expressly for the reason that they want to see the end where
Captain Von Trapp is being forced by Hitler's regime to surrender to them.
This came from an informal discussion of WWII that started with my husband's
interest in "Saving Private Ryan" which he saw while he was out of town a few
weeks ago and staying in a boring hotel room by himself.
From there, we went to some children' encyclopedias we have with an extensive
coverage of the war and we talked about the atomic bomb and we discussed
casulaties and consequences and how the American Japanese were treated.
At other times, we have discussed concentration camps.
I don't think any of my kid's has the whole picture, yet. But, it's so fun
to watch them putting it together in their own heads in different ways. They
listen to my input and my dh's. They talk to grandparents and read
historical fiction and watch movies and make their own impressions on their
own time.
BTW, I heard Elie Wiesel when I was in college and it was one of the most
moving and poignant experiences of my life. No one dared breath while he
told about the horror of the Holocaust. It became real to me then. I don't
know that if anyone at anytime before that had "tried to get me to
understand," that I would have.
I guess what I'm saying is to trust your child's lead, and by all means
expose them to things, but if they are telling you they are not ready, they
aren't.
Carol
<< Yes, there certainly are and the Holocaust is one of them. >>
I'm new to the list, but just wanted to pipe in here.
I think there are other ways to introduce my children to issues without
necessarily dive right in. Especially when I try to take their cues.
For example, my older children (12,10,8 and 6) are at this moment watching
Sound of Music expressly for the reason that they want to see the end where
Captain Von Trapp is being forced by Hitler's regime to surrender to them.
This came from an informal discussion of WWII that started with my husband's
interest in "Saving Private Ryan" which he saw while he was out of town a few
weeks ago and staying in a boring hotel room by himself.
From there, we went to some children' encyclopedias we have with an extensive
coverage of the war and we talked about the atomic bomb and we discussed
casulaties and consequences and how the American Japanese were treated.
At other times, we have discussed concentration camps.
I don't think any of my kid's has the whole picture, yet. But, it's so fun
to watch them putting it together in their own heads in different ways. They
listen to my input and my dh's. They talk to grandparents and read
historical fiction and watch movies and make their own impressions on their
own time.
BTW, I heard Elie Wiesel when I was in college and it was one of the most
moving and poignant experiences of my life. No one dared breath while he
told about the horror of the Holocaust. It became real to me then. I don't
know that if anyone at anytime before that had "tried to get me to
understand," that I would have.
I guess what I'm saying is to trust your child's lead, and by all means
expose them to things, but if they are telling you they are not ready, they
aren't.
Carol
Pam Hartley
----------
indigestable glomps of factoids and texts and tests. Real people in real
situations rarely learn like that.
My oldest daughter has been "learning to read" for two and a half years now
(and she's not near done yet), since she was two and started asking what
letter was what. I learned to cook from the time I was 8 and I'm *still*
"learning to cook".
Learning about the Holocaust really can be (and in learning's best sense
often *is*) about picking up a reference here at age 6 in the Sound of Music
and asking about it and getting a simple and honest answer without "too much
information" for the age and interest, and then another bit of knowledge
there at age 8 from something else, and then maybe a whole huge
but-this-time-digestible-because-of-interest glomp of Anne Frank at age 13
will lead on to more. Learning in spirals works. It's a bitch to chart, but
it works.
I'm still learning about the Holocaust, too, and about dog training and
marriage and physics and grammar and lawnmowing. It's just schools that
think that glomps are the only and best way, and you'd better eat all your
glomps because it's good for you and you'll grow up to have a big, strong,
factoid-filled brain. ;)
BTW, I am off on a huge tangent here and don't want the original poster to
think I'm accusing her of glomping or conspiring-to-glomp her daughter.
Sometimes I just steal the idea-ball and run. <g> Forgive me.
Pam
>From: Burkfamily@...This is a good point and a good illustration. Schools teach in great big old
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Holocaust (was Parenting etc...)
>Date: Mon, Jul 12, 1999, 12:02 PM
>
>I don't think any of my kid's has the whole picture, yet. But, it's so fun
>to watch them putting it together in their own heads in different ways. They
>listen to my input and my dh's. They talk to grandparents and read
>historical fiction and watch movies and make their own impressions on their
>own time.
indigestable glomps of factoids and texts and tests. Real people in real
situations rarely learn like that.
My oldest daughter has been "learning to read" for two and a half years now
(and she's not near done yet), since she was two and started asking what
letter was what. I learned to cook from the time I was 8 and I'm *still*
"learning to cook".
Learning about the Holocaust really can be (and in learning's best sense
often *is*) about picking up a reference here at age 6 in the Sound of Music
and asking about it and getting a simple and honest answer without "too much
information" for the age and interest, and then another bit of knowledge
there at age 8 from something else, and then maybe a whole huge
but-this-time-digestible-because-of-interest glomp of Anne Frank at age 13
will lead on to more. Learning in spirals works. It's a bitch to chart, but
it works.
I'm still learning about the Holocaust, too, and about dog training and
marriage and physics and grammar and lawnmowing. It's just schools that
think that glomps are the only and best way, and you'd better eat all your
glomps because it's good for you and you'll grow up to have a big, strong,
factoid-filled brain. ;)
BTW, I am off on a huge tangent here and don't want the original poster to
think I'm accusing her of glomping or conspiring-to-glomp her daughter.
Sometimes I just steal the idea-ball and run. <g> Forgive me.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/12/99 10:07:40 AM, KSeebose@... writes:
<<I certainly do not feel this is something that she needs to know right
now...
personally, I feel this is something that she *must* know about -- no
excuses... but perhaps the suggestion that 7 is a very tender age to learn
about such hardships... >>
I would agree that people must be informed about the Holocaust. I'm
concerned about exposing children to an overwhelming tragedy without giving
them some hope for the future. I would like to see a Holocaust study tied in
with ideas for constructive action. What can kids do, now or as adults, to
prevent a future Holocaust?
Betsy
<<I certainly do not feel this is something that she needs to know right
now...
personally, I feel this is something that she *must* know about -- no
excuses... but perhaps the suggestion that 7 is a very tender age to learn
about such hardships... >>
I would agree that people must be informed about the Holocaust. I'm
concerned about exposing children to an overwhelming tragedy without giving
them some hope for the future. I would like to see a Holocaust study tied in
with ideas for constructive action. What can kids do, now or as adults, to
prevent a future Holocaust?
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/12/99 2:35:17 PM, you wrote:
<<But age appropriate (and child appropriate)
discussion. I won't let them watch certain movies yet because of the
violence (or the news for that matter, some nights).>>
Absolute agreed... The news most nights is rough enough...
Kathie
<<But age appropriate (and child appropriate)
discussion. I won't let them watch certain movies yet because of the
violence (or the news for that matter, some nights).>>
Absolute agreed... The news most nights is rough enough...
Kathie
[email protected]
Dear Pam...
<< Sometimes I just steal the idea-ball and run. <g> Forgive me.
Carol
<< Sometimes I just steal the idea-ball and run. <g> Forgive me.
>>Keep stealing that idea ball...it was a great post!
Carol
Campbell & Wyman
Pam said;
I just love this 'tangent ' that you are on. I had never looked at it quite
that way...but it does make sense. And I have found it to be the best way
to learn together... in bits and bites that are interesting at the age and
stage of the child.
Thanks for the insight.
Brooke
>Schools teach in great big old
>indigestable glomps of factoids and texts and tests. Real people in realDear Pam...
>situations rarely learn like that.
>I'm still learning about the Holocaust, too, and about dog training and
>marriage and physics and grammar and lawnmowing. It's just schools that
>think that glomps are the only and best way, and you'd better eat all your
>glomps because it's good for you and you'll grow up to have a big, strong,
>factoid-filled brain. ;)
>
>
I just love this 'tangent ' that you are on. I had never looked at it quite
that way...but it does make sense. And I have found it to be the best way
to learn together... in bits and bites that are interesting at the age and
stage of the child.
Thanks for the insight.
Brooke
>brynlee@...
Maura Seger
>From: KSeebose@...Yes, there certainly are and the Holocaust is one of them. I just don't
>
>but
>surely there are "issues" that you (as parents) feel are important for your
>children to know... ? >
>Kathie
>
think children should be exposed to it at such a tender age. I understand
the need not to shelter my children unrealistically from the world but I've
also wanted to preserve the joyful innocence of childhood as long as
possible so that it could grow strong and remain with them in at least some
form throughout their lives.
Besides, I really wonder how much about the Holocaust a 7 yo can possibly
comprehend. That a great many people were killed because they were
Jewish...or Gypsy...or homosexual...or Communist...or in the wrong place at
the wrong time? That their killing was cold-blooded and systematic? That
human beings are capable of immense evil? That genocide has, despite
everything, happened again in our own lifetimes and probably will again in
hers? These are "issues" best encountered by more mature minds, IMO.
Maura