Steve & Liv

Re: Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.htm
Thought you folks might be interested in the other side of the coin which I found when I picked it up.

Liv:

I looked at the site and thought it rather unusual that an accredited association of physicians would have so many anecdotal reports. I asked a friend who is a physician if he knew anything about this association as I had not heard of it before. Here is what he said:

Hi there,
Jane Orient runs AAPS, which is a libertarian/conservative political group
to which about 4500 (I believe) physicians belong. Associate membership of
some kind is available to laypeople as well. It is not a "medical" group in
the common meaning of the term. They focus almost solely on political
issues. J Orient, whom I previously respected and agreed with on many
issues, has become a strident critic of vaccines and vaccine
policy. She accepts information from anti-vaccine groups run by laypeople
and features articles on her website by notorious opponents of all
vaccination. Why would a "medical" group get its information this way, much
less pass the same on to the general public? You'll have to ask Jane. While
I can forgive laypeople for being confused by the science and rhetoric
inherent in the vaccine issue, I am afraid I cannot forgive a physician who
puts her politics ahead of science. Jane has made a real spectacle of herself
on the healthfraud listserve over the past year and a half, misquoting
studies, alluding to studies of different vaccines other than the one under
discussion, and basically any other kind of obtuse, disingenuous, sloppy and
unscholarly behavior imaginable.

This is a terrible shame and another reason why I am so angry at J Orient. Her
credential as a physician gives her credibility in the eyes of trusting and
unsuspecting people. She has IMO wildly abused that trust.
 
Hope this was of interest.
 
From Liv (who didn't write the above).

LisaKK

<<J Orient, whom I previously respected and agreed with on many
issues, has become a strident critic of vaccines and vaccine
policy. She accepts information from anti-vaccine groups run by laypeople
and features articles on her website by notorious opponents of all
vaccination. >>

Just as an aside, when Linus Pauling insisited that Vitamin C had health
benifits over and above the prevention of scurvy, the medical community
responded by pulling his license to practice medicine.

When Semmelwiss inisisted that all physcians had to do was wash their hands
between patients they laughed him out of town. It took many years and many,
many more deaths before they finally accepted he was correct.

When one of their own states that a lay group would know more about
vaccines, then the subsequent deingration of their work is to be expected.
This woman may have become strident, she may have definitely have used the
tactics the other side uses on parents (I could tell you some stories about
parents being refused their newborn babies in military hospitals until they
signed the paper allowing a Hep B shot). Even becoming a Libertarian and
pushing for the government to get out of parental decisions makes sense to
me, especially if she has seen case after case of Autism.beginning after or
near an MMR.

Strident voices, and hot flying email says nothing that devalues the studies
that have been done and the antedoctal evidence by parents dealing with hurt
children.

Lisa

Lynda

Re: Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.htm
That is the AMA approved response that was mandated for their members to put out.  What she may or may not put out, the bottomline that they are all about is patient choice and not having federally mandated vaccination policies.  There are children who currently face being removed from their homes because of the vaccination policies.
 
The government should not be in the business of telling doctors how to treat patients, nor should the AMA and certainly not pharmaceutical companies!
 
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 12:14 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: AAPS Votes to Oppose Vaccine Mandates.

Thought you folks might be interested in the other side of the coin which I found when I picked it up.

Liv:

I looked at the site and thought it rather unusual that an accredited association of physicians would have so many anecdotal reports. I asked a friend who is a physician if he knew anything about this association as I had not heard of it before. Here is what he said:

Hi there,
Jane Orient runs AAPS, which is a libertarian/conservative political group
to which about 4500 (I believe) physicians belong. Associate membership of
some kind is available to laypeople as well. It is not a "medical" group in
the common meaning of the term. They focus almost solely on political
issues. J Orient, whom I previously respected and agreed with on many
issues, has become a strident critic of vaccines and vaccine
policy. She accepts information from anti-vaccine groups run by laypeople
and features articles on her website by notorious opponents of all
vaccination. Why would a "medical" group get its information this way, much
less pass the same on to the general public? You'll have to ask Jane. While
I can forgive laypeople for being confused by the science and rhetoric
inherent in the vaccine issue, I am afraid I cannot forgive a physician who
puts her politics ahead of science. Jane has made a real spectacle of herself
on the healthfraud listserve over the past year and a half, misquoting
studies, alluding to studies of different vaccines other than the one under
discussion, and basically any other kind of obtuse, disingenuous, sloppy and
unscholarly behavior imaginable.

This is a terrible shame and another reason why I am so angry at J Orient. Her
credential as a physician gives her credibility in the eyes of trusting and
unsuspecting people. She has IMO wildly abused that trust.
 
Hope this was of interest.
 
From Liv (who didn't write the above).



Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

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Lynda

Well, he's going to be might unhappy (and all his AMA cronies too) after
tonights 60 Minutes which aired on the MMR/Autism link.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "LisaKK" <LisaBugg@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: AAPS Votes to Oppose Vaccine Mandates.


> <<J Orient, whom I previously respected and agreed with on many
> issues, has become a strident critic of vaccines and vaccine
> policy. She accepts information from anti-vaccine groups run by laypeople
> and features articles on her website by notorious opponents of all
> vaccination. >>
>
> Just as an aside, when Linus Pauling insisited that Vitamin C had health
> benifits over and above the prevention of scurvy, the medical community
> responded by pulling his license to practice medicine.
>
> When Semmelwiss inisisted that all physcians had to do was wash their
hands
> between patients they laughed him out of town. It took many years and
many,
> many more deaths before they finally accepted he was correct.
>
> When one of their own states that a lay group would know more about
> vaccines, then the subsequent deingration of their work is to be expected.
> This woman may have become strident, she may have definitely have used the
> tactics the other side uses on parents (I could tell you some stories
about
> parents being refused their newborn babies in military hospitals until
they
> signed the paper allowing a Hep B shot). Even becoming a Libertarian and
> pushing for the government to get out of parental decisions makes sense to
> me, especially if she has seen case after case of Autism.beginning after
or
> near an MMR.
>
> Strident voices, and hot flying email says nothing that devalues the
studies
> that have been done and the antedoctal evidence by parents dealing with
hurt
> children.
>
> Lisa
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

DiamondAir

> From: "LisaKK" <LisaBugg@...>
> When one of their own states that a lay group would know more about
> vaccines, then the subsequent deingration of their work is to be expected.
> This woman may have become strident, she may have definitely have used the
> tactics the other side uses on parents

I agree! Esp. after seeing this special on the topic the other night - think
it was on 60 minutes, I only caught a bit of it. But as usual, there was
some learned doctor telling parents "If you don't get your child the MMR
vaccine, you are playing Russian Roulette with their life". What a bunch of
hooey. A friend of mine's daughter caught the measles, so a bunch of us
whose kids are not vaccinated took them over to her house for playdates -
swapped sippy cups and everything. Not a one of them came down with the
measles, much to our disappointment. Seems that there was not much we could
do so that our healthy, breastfed kids would actually contract this "dread"
disease (which my mom had without incident, as well as mumps and rubella).
Ditto with chickenpox - I've tried to get natural immunity for my
son, but he just can't seem to catch it. I mean I'm glad the vaccines are
available. If my child was immune-compromised or somehow at risk for serious
complications, I would probably be glad I had the choice to use them. But I
resent being forced or attempted to be guilted into using it for no good
purpose.
Note: I didn't see the whole 60 minutes segment, so I have no idea if this
one doctor's view was indicative of the whole. His line just bugged me.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) who has 36 imaginary baby lobsters following him
around
and Asa (10/5/99) who plays the kazoo
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

dawn

> hooey. A friend of mine's daughter caught the measles, so a bunch of us
> whose kids are not vaccinated took them over to her house for playdates -
> swapped sippy cups and everything. Not a one of them came down with the
> measles, much to our disappointment. Seems that there was not much we could
> do so that our healthy, breastfed kids would actually contract this "dread"
> disease (which my mom had without incident, as well as mumps and rubella).
> Ditto with chickenpox - I've tried to get natural immunity for my
> son, but he just can't seem to catch it. I mean I'm glad the vaccines are
> available. If my child was immune-compromised or somehow at risk for serious
>
>
exactly. My son got measles from a child who was vaccinated. He was
sick, yes. But not nearly as sick as I am atm with bronchitis. We tried
8 times to get him chickenpox before it took. I had all of the childhood
diseases (and then the vaccinations, go figure). And I was not a
"healthy" child, having had asthma from a very young age. The vaccines
are wonderful for the nonhealthy kids. And I know that even healthy
people died from these diseases at times. But the risks we, as a
population, are taking in assuming that mass vaccination programs are the
best way to go are unknown. I just read the new book _Flu_ about the
influenza epidemic of 1918, and one theory as to why it mainly killed the
young people in their 20s and 30s is that their had been a previous
pandemic in 1890 (I think) and the older people, who it would be assumed
would suffer from flu more than the young and healthy, had partial
immunity to that particular strain as the two strains appeared to be
related/similar. I dunno. Makes some sense to me. I also know that the
less I teach (or rather, the fewer hours I spend on campus) any given
semester, the more and worse I get sick. I assume it is because I don't
get multiple and smaller exposures to whatever is going around by not
being on campus. I don't have a person in line behind me sneeze and get
exposed that way, which fires up my immune system. Instead, some sick
student wanders into my office, coughs up a lung all over me, hands me a
paper covered with her germs, etc., and whammy. I'm sick two days later.
I'm glad we have vaccinations, but they are a double edged sword at the
same time and most people don't realize that.
dawn h-s

Kathryn B Cauley

Bravo!Absolutely!Thanks for the clarity Lynda.
Kathy in Houston

On Sun, 12 Nov 2000 11:46:53 -0800 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:
>------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C04C9E.409DC8C0
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Re: Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.htmThat is the AMA
>appr=
>oved response that was mandated for their members to put out. What
>she may=
> or may not put out, the bottomline that they are all about is patient
>choi=
>ce and not having federally mandated vaccination policies. There are
>child=
>ren who currently face being removed from their homes because of the
>vaccin=
>ation policies.
>
>The government should not be in the business of telling doctors how to
>trea=
>t patients, nor should the AMA and certainly not pharmaceutical
>companies!
>
>Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Steve & Liv=20
> To: [email protected]=20
> Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2000 12:14 AM
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: AAPS Votes to Oppose Vaccine
>Mandates.
>
>
> Thought you folks might be interested in the other side of the
>coin whi=
>ch I found when I picked it up.
>
> Liv:
>
> I looked at the site and thought it rather unusual that an
>accredited ass=
>ociation of physicians would have so many anecdotal reports. I asked a
>frie=
>nd who is a physician if he knew anything about this association as I
>had n=
>ot heard of it before. Here is what he said:
>
> Hi there,
> Jane Orient runs AAPS, which is a libertarian/conservative political
>grou=
>p
> to which about 4500 (I believe) physicians belong. Associate
>membership o=
>f
> some kind is available to laypeople as well. It is not a "medical"
>group =
>in
> the common meaning of the term. They focus almost solely on
>political
> issues. J Orient, whom I previously respected and agreed with on
>many
> issues, has become a strident critic of vaccines and vaccine
> policy. She accepts information from anti-vaccine groups run by
>laypeople
> and features articles on her website by notorious opponents of all
> vaccination. Why would a "medical" group get its information this
>way, mu=
>ch
> less pass the same on to the general public? You'll have to ask
>Jane. Whi=
>le
> I can forgive laypeople for being confused by the science and
>rhetoric
> inherent in the vaccine issue, I am afraid I cannot forgive a
>physician w=
>ho
> puts her politics ahead of science. Jane has made a real spectacle
>of her=
>self
> on the healthfraud listserve over the past year and a half,
>misquoting
> studies, alluding to studies of different vaccines other than the
>one und=
>er
> discussion, and basically any other kind of obtuse, disingenuous,
>sloppy =
>and
> unscholarly behavior imaginable.=20
>
> This is a terrible shame and another reason why I am so angry at J
>Orient=
>. Her
> credential as a physician gives her credibility in the eyes of
>trusting a=
>nd
> unsuspecting people. She has IMO wildly abused that trust.
>
> Hope this was of interest.
>
> From Liv (who didn't write the above).
>
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor=20
>=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_0084_01C04C9E.409DC8C0
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
><HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: Association of American Physicians and
>Surgeons.htm</TITLE>
><META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
><META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR>
><STYLE></STYLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
><DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>That is the AMA approved response that
>was mandated
>for their members to put out.  What she may or may not put out,
>the
>bottomline that they are all about is patient choice and not having
>federally
>mandated vaccination policies.  There are children who currently
>face being
>removed from their homes because of the vaccination
>policies.</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The government should not be in the
>business of
>telling doctors how to treat patients, nor should the AMA and
>certainly not
>pharmaceutical companies!</FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
><DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lynda</FONT></DIV>
><BLOCKQUOTE
>style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px;
>BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
> <DIV
> style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color:
>black"><B>From:</B>
> <A title=simonsen.burt@...
>href="mailto:simonsen.burt@...">Steve
> & Liv</A> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
> [email protected]
>
>href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</A>

>
> </DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, November 12, 2000
>12:14
> AM</DIV>
> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [Unschooling-dotcom]
>Re: AAPS
> Votes to Oppose Vaccine Mandates.</DIV>
> <DIV><BR></DIV>
> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2>Thought you folks might be interested in
>the other
> side of the coin which I found when I picked it
>up.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana><BR>Liv:<BR><BR>I looked at the site and
>thought it
> rather unusual that an accredited association of physicians would
>have so many
> anecdotal reports. I asked a friend who is a physician if he knew
>anything
> about this association as I had not heard of it before. Here is what
>he
> said:<BR><BR></FONT><FONT face=Monaco><TT>Hi there,<BR>Jane Orient
>runs AAPS,
> which is a libertarian/conservative political group<BR>to which
>about 4500 (I
> believe) physicians belong. Associate membership of<BR>some kind is
>available
> to laypeople as well. It is not a "medical" group in<BR>the common
>meaning of
> the term. They focus almost solely on political<BR>issues. J Orient,
>whom I
> previously respected and agreed with on many<BR>issues, has become a
>strident
> critic of vaccines and vaccine<BR>policy. She accepts information
>from
> anti-vaccine groups run by laypeople<BR>and features articles on her
>website
> by notorious opponents of all<BR>vaccination. Why would a "medical"
>group get
> its information this way, much<BR>less pass the same on to the
>general public?
> You'll have to ask Jane. While<BR>I can forgive laypeople for being
>confused
> by the science and rhetoric<BR>inherent in the vaccine issue, I am
>afraid I
> cannot forgive a physician who<BR>puts her politics ahead of
>science. Jane has
> made a real spectacle of herself<BR>on the healthfraud listserve
>over the past
> year and a half, misquoting<BR>studies, alluding to studies of
>different
> vaccines other than the one under<BR>discussion, and basically any
>other kind
> of obtuse, disingenuous, sloppy and<BR>unscholarly behavior
>imaginable.
> <BR><BR>This is a terrible shame and another reason why I am so
>angry at J
> Orient. Her<BR>credential as a physician gives her credibility in
>the eyes of
> trusting and<BR>unsuspecting people. She has IMO wildly abused that
> trust.</TT></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Monaco><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Monaco><TT>Hope this was of
>interest.</TT></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Monaco><TT></TT></FONT> </DIV>
> <DIV><FONT face=Monaco><TT>From Liv (who didn't write the
> above).<BR><BR></DIV></TT></FONT><BR><BR><TT>Message
> boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!<BR>Check it all
>out at:
> <A
>
>href="http://www.unschooling.com">http://www.unschooling.com</A><BR><BR>Addresses:<BR>Post

>
> message: [email protected]<BR>Unsubscribe:
> [email protected]<BR>List owner:
> [email protected]<BR>List settings page: <A
>
>href="http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom">http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom</A><BR></TT><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>
><br>
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