Valerie

My first two daughters were vaccinated "on time" up until they were about 6
yrs. I hate myself for that....I was completely uninformed. Fortunately they
have never shown signs of a bad reaction. With my 3rd, I started her on the
regular schedule and then learned all kinds of awful truths about the shots
(again, fortunately not with her...through reading). My youngest has never
been vaccinated with anything as of yet and she is 2-1/2.

Does anyone else find it strange that chickenpox is now considered a
life-threatening disease which must be avoided at all costs? Remember just
10 years ago....a child would get chickenpox and other mothers would bring
their children over purposely to catch it and get it over with? Remember the
book "Itchy Scritchy Chickenpox"? It was a joke....everyone got it sooner
or later, some were really sick with it and some kids didn't mind at all.
When one of my kids caught it 7 years ago, the pediatrician's office was
more concerned that I was missing an appt for more vaccinations than the
fact that my just turned one year old was miserably sick. They didn't even
offer any suggestions on making her more comfortable. Now there are
commercials with toys crying for the children who didn't get vaccinated for
chickenpox and died. Strange how cavalier the medical community was about it
before the vaccine, isn't it? Now it's life-threatening.

When the MMR was first introduced in Japan (not too long ago), autism for
the vaccinated age group went up 500%. But here they only want to spread out
the shots, not discontinue them...and they think spreading them out is
radical.

I should have known vaccinations were a bad idea....I got hard measles from
the shot when I was 6. I still have the scar. If I could do it over again, I
would vaccinate only for tetanus.

---Valerie

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie <valeries@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:05 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination

a child would get chickenpox and other mothers would bring
> their children over purposely to catch it and get it over with?

That's exactly what I did with my first 2 and what I would like to do with
my 3rd. Only problem is, thanks to the vaccine, nobody gets them anymore. Oh
ell, guess I'll just have to wait a few years for everyone else's vaccines
to wear off. There will be another epidemic of chicken pox in this country.


Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
The World Is Our Classroom

Valerie

> Does anyone else find it strange that chickenpox is now considered a
> life-threatening disease which must be avoided at all costs?

One of the reasons for the push is that for some people it *is* a life- threatening disease. People with AIDS and other immune problems (the elderly and chemotherapy patients) catching the chicken pox could be a death sentence. I have known so many "careless" parents whose children have gotten cp and taken their infectious children out into public (the grocery store, resteraunts, the *dentist*!!) And children in the US still do die from cp.
From the Center for Disease Control:
"Every year there are approximately 5,000-9,000 hospitalizations and 100 deaths from chickenpox in the United States. "

So cp isn't really a benign little disease. 


 Michelle, 
What I meant is, now the push in on for everyone to get this vaccination....everyone, not only those in a risk group. Have you 
ever heard of anyone not in the risk groups dying from complications of chickenpox?  (infections, pneumonia)  Why immunize 
healthy little children for it? Why not just those at risk?
And as I said before, chickenpox certainly was _treated_ as a benign little disease before they had a vaccine for it.
---Valerie
 

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: <braunville@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination

> The hitch there is that by then your child will be older and the risks
> associated with catching chicken pox will be significantly greater.

I thought of that, but then it occored to me that it's only going to be a
few more years before the first groups of kids that recieved it will need
their boosters. Many will not get them. CP will be out there again. She
won't be taht old. 10 maybe, that's about the age dh was when he had them.

Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
The World Is Our Classroom

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/2000 8:44:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aworthen@... writes:

> That's exactly what I did with my first 2 and what I would like to do with
> my 3rd. Only problem is, thanks to the vaccine, nobody gets them anymore.
Oh
> ell, guess I'll just have to wait a few years for everyone else's vaccines
> to wear off. There will be another epidemic of chicken pox in this country.
>

The hitch there is that by then your child will be older and the risks
associated with catching chicken pox will be significantly greater. Risks
such as blindness and hearing loss, for instance.

How's that for a catch 22?

Eiraul

[email protected]

>
> I thought of that, but then it occored to me that it's only going to
> be a few more years before the first groups of kids that recieved it
> will need their boosters. Many will not get them. CP will be out there
> again. She won't be taht old. 10 maybe, that's about the age dh was
> when he had them.

But that is no guarantee that she will actually get them then. The
older they get the worse they get them. My brother got them when
he was 11. Managed to not be able to be infected until then. He
had them in his ears, eyes, as well as internally (urinary tract,
mouth, throat, stomach, rectum) He is lucky that he did get over
them without any major complications. Chicken Pox in men can
cause sterility.

As for being revaccinated, yes; it will happen. Just like people
revaccinate for other diseases too. Our school system is going to
insist on vaccination for varicella starting next school year, which
means that records are going to be reviewed and reminders sent
home like they are with measles. If a parent is going to commit to
the immunization then they need to commit to it and not put their
child at risk as they get older.

Studies coming out of Japan have proven at least 12 years of
protection and for some 15. It is recommended to get a booster
every 12 years. Japan has been using this vaccine for a lot longer
than we have and with great success.



Michelle

Woman, Mommy, Wife, Scrapper, Stamper, Baker, Gardner
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/00 11:05:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
valeries@... writes:

<< When the MMR was first introduced in Japan (not too long ago), autism for
the vaccinated age group went up 500%. But here they only want to spread out
the shots, not discontinue them...and they think spreading them out is >>

Valerie,

I am new to the list, and i am guessing you live in Japan? Was that your
newsletter we received on this list? Neat! My sister lives there (in a
suburb of Tokyo----called Denechofu) She is twin bi-racial boys, age 12 who
go to a private boy's school.

cath
montreal

Valerie

<< When the MMR was first introduced in Japan (not too long ago), autism for
the vaccinated age group went up 500%. But here they only want to spread
out
the shots, not discontinue them...and they think spreading them out is >>

Valerie,

I am new to the list, and i am guessing you live in Japan? Was that your
newsletter we received on this list? Neat! My sister lives there (in a
suburb of Tokyo----called Denechofu) She is twin bi-racial boys, age 12 who
go to a private boy's school.

cath
montreal

Hi Cath

No I don't live in Japan. I read that in a Mothering magazine news brief and
in the newspaper about two years ago.
Hey, I have a sister who lives in Japan off and on also. Near Chiba. I
myself have never been anywhere. Pathetic.

---Valerie

[email protected]

Hi ,
I just wanted to say somethig.My dd was vacc. Iguess I never really realized
the big pic about vacinations. ( guess I have some reading to do) Anyway
about the chicken pox.. My dd has been exposed to so many children with the
chix pox but has never had them . My mom thinks I should get her the shot now
because they say it is better to get them when you are young. DD will be 10
in July. My sister was 9 when she got them too and she had it bad. My older
brother had them when he was 32 and he had it real bad. My other sister and I
both had them when we were 2 and 3 so I guess they were just the normal chix
pox cases. The shot for chix pox wasnt out when my sister and brother got
them (they got them together, cute huh) I almost did it last year because mil
was on my back because she had just taken my niece to get the shot and she
wanted me to go with her......! She asked me why I wouldnt do it . I told
her that as far as I knew the shot was relatively new around where we are and
they werent using my daughter as a quinea pig. She didnt talk to me for
weeks and she got the shot. Any I was just curious.

Tamie

Lynda

The fear of chicken pox in older children causing horrible, ghastly, life
threatening problems is a drug company/CDC scare tactic that makes folks
run out and get the vaccinations. The vaccines don't last! It was clearly
proven two years ago here in CA when there was an epidemic of whooping
cough in jr. high and high school students. Over 90% of those that got it
had been good little soldiers marched off to get all their immunizations
and boosters. Eldest son ran around with some of these kids and he didn't
have the shots and he didn't get whooping cough!

Lynda

----------
> From: braunville@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination
> Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 11:59 AM
>
>
> In a message dated 9/22/2000 8:44:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> aworthen@... writes:
>
> > That's exactly what I did with my first 2 and what I would like to do
with
> > my 3rd. Only problem is, thanks to the vaccine, nobody gets them
anymore.
> Oh
> > ell, guess I'll just have to wait a few years for everyone else's
vaccines
> > to wear off. There will be another epidemic of chicken pox in this
country.
> >
>
> The hitch there is that by then your child will be older and the risks
> associated with catching chicken pox will be significantly greater.
Risks
> such as blindness and hearing loss, for instance.
>
> How's that for a catch 22?
>
> Eiraul
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

Lynda

Review the whole list. Then review the list that you really have to dig
for on the deaths FROM the vaccinations. Look at the old stats (again you
will have to really dig to find them) about how many deaths there were per
capita before the vaccines. Guess what folks, more deaths from the shots
than from the disease. The same hold true of Hep B! And the MMR shots!
And the whooping cough shots are running about neck in neck.

Lynda

----------
> From: catwhois@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination
> Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 8:26 AM
>
>
>
> <color><param>0000,0000,7F00</param>> Does anyone else find it strange
that chickenpox is now considered a
>
> > life-threatening disease which must be avoided at all costs?
>
>
> </color>One of the reasons for the push is that for some people it *is* a
life-
> threatening disease. People with AIDS and other immune
> problems (the elderly and chemotherapy patients) catching the
> chicken pox could be a death sentence. I have known so many
> "careless" parents whose children have gotten cp and taken their
> infectious children out into public (the grocery store, resteraunts,
> the *dentist*!!) And children in the US still do die from cp.
>
> >From the Center for Disease Control:
>
> "Every year there are approximately 5,000-9,000 <bold>hospitalizations
> and 100 deaths from chickenpox in the United States. "
>
>
> </bold>So cp isn't really a benign little disease.
>
>
>
>
>
> <nofill>
> Michelle
>
> Woman, Mommy, Wife, Scrapper, Stamper, Baker, Gardner
> "Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein

Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall

I guess Chicken pox vaccine is new, so I didn't have it. I thought I had, but I must have fried my brain when I was sick :-) At any rate, my folks were in the generation where you exposed your kids to CP as well as the other "more harmless" diseases. I don't know if it would have helped me at all. I am just plain sickly.

I also have a vaccinated son who has ADHD and is HIGHLY allergic to a number of things.

Nanci K.

------------------------------------------------------------
Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: Valerie <valeries@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 4:53 PM
Subject: FW: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination

.) We live in a culture
> where people don't want to have to take off 5-14 days of work

I think you just hit the nail on the head! This is another thing so that
lazy A*$ parents, that are toatlly disconnected from their kids and probably
shouldn't have them in the first place not to have to take care of their
sick kid. And even if they got them they could always send them to a "sick
day" program. UGH.

Amy (who's feeling very intense on this issue)

dawn

>
> a child would get chickenpox and other mothers would bring
> > their children over purposely to catch it and get it over with?
>
> That's exactly what I did with my first 2 and what I would like to do with
> my 3rd. Only problem is, thanks to the vaccine, nobody gets them anymore. Oh

that's what we did, a pox party! It took 8 such exposures over the years
for my oldest to get it though:/
dawn h-s

Cindy L.

Even the vaccinated kids around here have been getting chicken pox. My son
evidently had a very mild case, which he got from another unvaccinated
child, who wasn't aware that he had chicken pox. Our neighbor's vaccinated
son got CP at pre-school, and had a mild case just like my son's. I asked
the DR if possibly the vaccine was changing the nature of the illness, she
just gave me a weird look. She gave us the CP dx but said she had only seen
cases that mild in vaccinated children. My son was definitely exposed a
second time (rolling around with contagious child for 2 hours) but never got
ill, so we assume he did have it the 1st time.

My point is that some children may have been exposed & developed immunity
without the parents even realizing it, a simple blood test can tell if an
older child should even get the vaccine if you're considering it. And CP
is still running wild thru school & other groups of children, it may not be
that hard to pick up natural immunity after all. Of course who knows what
effect the vaccine has had on the virus, could it be possible that there are
now 2 strains- I'm only throwing out ideas, it just seems that the
authorities really don't know all the implications of these vaccines.

Cindy L.

> >
> a child would get chickenpox and other mothers would bring
> > their children over purposely to catch it and get it over with?
>
> That's exactly what I did with my first 2 and what I would like to do with
> my 3rd. Only problem is, thanks to the vaccine, nobody gets them anymore.
Oh
> ell, guess I'll just have to wait a few years for everyone else's vaccines
> to wear off. There will be another epidemic of chicken pox in this
country.
>
>
> Amy
> Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
> The World Is Our Classroom
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/2000 10:27:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
catwhois@... writes:

> So cp isn't really a benign little disease.

Thanks for this info, Michelle. There's also a serious problem some children
develop when they take aspirin products while they have chicken pox. It's
called Reyes Syndrome and can be devastating even if the chicken pox isn't.

Carron

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/2000 3:29:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:

> Review the whole list. Then review the list that you really have to dig
> for on the deaths FROM the vaccinations. Look at the old stats (again you
> will have to really dig to find them) about how many deaths there were per
> capita before the vaccines.

Hi Lynda,

Can you lead me to the stats? What is the "whole list"?

Carron

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/2000 4:18:06 PM Central Daylight Time,
aworthen@... writes:

> .) We live in a culture
> > where people don't want to have to take off 5-14 days of work
>
> I think you just hit the nail on the head! This is another thing so that
> lazy A*$ parents, that are toatlly disconnected from their kids and
probably
> shouldn't have them in the first place not to have to take care of their
> sick kid. And even if they got them they could always send them to a "sick
> day" program. UGH.


Does wanting your kids to avoid the 5-14 days of extreme discomfort count for
anything? I had a regular case of chicken pox when I was kid. I also had
measles and mumps. Apparently, no ill effects from any of these. My kids
were immunized, except for chicken pox. My son got it at 2, was extremely
uncomfortable and just plain sick for a week. My 4 year old daughter hasn't
had it and hasn't been vaccinated. I'm still considering it because I don't
want her to have to go through that.

Carron

Carron

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: <Cararmst@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination

There's also a serious problem some children
> develop when they take aspirin products while they have chicken pox. It's
> called Reyes Syndrome and can be devastating even if the chicken pox
isn't.

Reye's Syndrome can be contracted by taking asprin during a variety of
illnesses. Children should never be given asprin to treat illness for fear
they could have one of these predisposing conditions. (Even one as seemling
innocent as the flu).

Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
The World Is Our Classroom

dawn

>
> Thanks for this info, Michelle. There's also a serious problem some children
> develop when they take aspirin products while they have chicken pox. It's
> called Reyes Syndrome and can be devastating even if the chicken pox isn't.
But the fear of Reyes is no reason to vaccinate, unless there is some
reason the child must have aspirin. I don't know anyone who uses aspirin
for anything in children irl (I do "know" a few through email who use it).
dawn h-s

Lynda

Okey dokey, here's the question for the day. Reyes Syndrome is relatively
new. 50 or 100 years ago it was not around. Everyone who had kids who got
measles, mumps, cp or the flu used aspirin. How come we now have this
problem??? anyone have any clues?

I mean, I was given aspirin, all my friends were, no problem. I gave all
the kidlets baby aspirin for these things, no problem.

Lynda

----------
> From: Cararmst@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination
> Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 5:36 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 9/22/2000 10:27:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
> catwhois@... writes:
>
> > So cp isn't really a benign little disease.
>
> Thanks for this info, Michelle. There's also a serious problem some
children
> develop when they take aspirin products while they have chicken pox.
It's
> called Reyes Syndrome and can be devastating even if the chicken pox
isn't.
>
> Carron
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

Lynda

CDC has several sites and you have to go from list to another list to the
charts and they refer you back to something else. About two years ago I
spent about a week going through all the sites because of the push for Hep
B. Then I went to the WHO's site and then took all the info from the no
vaccines lists (which I verified). It was quite an interesting trip,
particularly as some of the sites that are supposed to be "medical" and
"science" and unbiased (yeah right) sites were being paid for by the drug
companies.

The handouts that are suppose to tell you the pro's and con's of Hep B are
produced by the drug company to be handed out by the doctors. I mean,
really now, like they would tell folks not to use the vaccine? The same is
true for all the cp and mmr vaccines and the literature you get on them.

Lynda

----------
> From: Cararmst@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] re:vaccination
> Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 5:43 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 9/22/2000 3:29:50 PM Central Daylight Time,
> lurine@... writes:
>
> > Review the whole list. Then review the list that you really have to
dig
> > for on the deaths FROM the vaccinations. Look at the old stats (again
you
> > will have to really dig to find them) about how many deaths there were
per
> > capita before the vaccines.
>
> Hi Lynda,
>
> Can you lead me to the stats? What is the "whole list"?
>
> Carron
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

Sue

For the last two nights we have had Alice and her three boys Frank
[4], Henry [6] and Sam [8] staying here on the farm, they are
travelling from their home in Maine cross country to Los Angeles
visiting with as many homeschoolers as they can along the way.
Some places they need overnight accommodation, just a place to
pitch their tent in your backyard is all they ask.

Alice plays the violin and will happily do so for your family, her
boys are a pleasure, and had a great time with my girls and would
love to meet other kids who don't go to school.

They need a place to stay or maybe just meet you for a hike
around your area in the following locations;

California - Central Valley
Kansas
Missouri - St Louis
Tennessee - around Nashville
Florida - around Orlando
Georgia - coastal region
Carolinas

If anyone can help either by allowing them to camp in your back
yard, sleep in a spare room in your house, or just to meet with
them for a while, please let me know and I will pass the message
on to Alice's husband.

If you are on any other lists or groups please feel free to pass this
message on. You can see a photo of her boys with my girls at
http://www.egroups.com/files/sues_pics/hrsfms.jpg


Sue

The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm

"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi

Denise Johnson

Sue~
What a wonderful adventure. I'm not in any of the states you listed, but let Alice know that if she ever finds herself in Arizona, my home is always open to them. We live in Mesa, AZ.
 
Denise
 
 
 
>>travelling from their home in Maine cross country to Los Angeles
visiting with as many homeschoolers as they can along the way.  
Some places they need overnight accommodation, just a place to
pitch their tent in your backyard is all they ask.<<

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/22/00 11:44:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
aworthen@... writes:

<< guess I'll just have to wait a few years for everyone else's vaccines
to wear off. There will be another epidemic of chicken pox in this country.
>>
Amy,
In my opinion, that is a great idea. I will never do any procedure, or have
anything injected into me or my family until the procedure is at least 15
years old. The side affects of anything is never found until between 10 and
15 years and I wouldn't trust the 10yr findings. They are just beginning to
find problems from laser eye surgery, and that started around 15 years ago
also.
Teresa

Billy or Nancy

In the US, Reyes is commonly associated with giving aspirin to children
during viral infections, and parents are advised to use acetaminophen or
ibuprofen instead. In other countries, acetaminophen or ibuprofen have been
thought to cause the problems.

The US decrease in rates of Reyes syndrome have been said to be due to
increased use of acetaminophen for children instead of aspirin. Other
countries have seen similar decreases in Reyes rates despite relying almost
completely on aspirin.

Medical information can be hard to find and what the media decides to
present isn't always the most factual or scientific information.

Billy
Family Unschoolers Network
http://www.unschooling.org
FUN Books
http://www.FUN-Books.com
Featuring the new John Taylor Gatto book!


> -----Original Message-----
>
> Okey dokey, here's the question for the day. Reyes Syndrome
> is relatively
> new. 50 or 100 years ago it was not around. Everyone who
> had kids who got
> measles, mumps, cp or the flu used aspirin. How come we now have this
> problem??? anyone have any clues?
>
> I mean, I was given aspirin, all my friends were, no problem.
> I gave all
> the kidlets baby aspirin for these things, no problem.
>
> Lynda
>

Billy or Nancy

Okay, I have this great vaccine I can give you. Less than 1 in 100,000
people who receive the vaccine will die, so it is very safe and it offers
some great protection. If you take it, you will be 1/10 as likely to die
from nastyviroimmunogobbledygook.

Sounds like a great deal. Everybody should get this vaccine. What if I told
you that your chance of dying from nastyviroimmunogobbledygook is only 10 in
1,000,000. Take this lovely vaccine (did I mention possible side effects of
fever, rash, vomiting?) and the mortality rate drops to 1 in 1,000,000.
Still sound like a great deal?

Even Doctors often only have statistics presented in the first format, not
raw numbers that can help them make more meaningful decisions.

Psst, hey you. Yeah, I'm talking to you. Want to know a sure fire secret
guaranteed to triple your chance of winning the lottery? Worth $10 bucks to
you? Okay, here it is. Next time instead of only buying 1 lottery ticket,
buy 3. Your winnings are practically in the bank already!

!!!
ð¿ð
Û

Billy
Family Unschoolers Network
http://www.unschooling.org
FUN Books
http://www.FUN-Books.com
Featuring the new John Taylor Gatto book!

Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)

Sue

I just talked with my dh & we'd love to help & have a visit from Alice & the
boys. We live in Orlando, FL. Any idea when they'd be coming this way? Or
how long they'd like to stay? We don't have loads of room, 3/2, but we can
work out sleeping arrangements by camping on the floor or something. I have
dd 16, dd 7, ds 4 & ds 2. Let me know if we can be of help. (Only 40 min
with traffic to Disney.)

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: Susan (mother to 5 in Fla) <samiot@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 5:48 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] travelling unschoolers

Hi Susan,
I'll be coming to Orlando in Nov. I'd love to meet you.
Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
The World Is Our Classroom