Vaccination
Nicole Brown
Hi,
I was just reading a book about the controversy over compulsory
vaccination for children - "The Vaccine Guide, Making An Informed
Choice" by Randall Neustaedter OMD. Was wondering what this group thinks
of the issue.
I hesitate to post this question, because it is a controversial topic,
but well, so is unschooling... anyway if this has been hashed out before
and decided to be off-topic, please let me know and I'll look in the
archives.
I figured that it IS on topic, because the main reason vaccination is
"compulsory" is because it is required (usually) for admission to public
schools. So, without that particular hassle, do you decide to vaccinate
your children anyway? If so, is it an "informed" decision or have you
even thought about it?
I'm not even quite sure what I'm trying to ask here... I guess just that
if you have an opinion, I'm curious to know what it is, and why.
Thanks!
Nicole
I was just reading a book about the controversy over compulsory
vaccination for children - "The Vaccine Guide, Making An Informed
Choice" by Randall Neustaedter OMD. Was wondering what this group thinks
of the issue.
I hesitate to post this question, because it is a controversial topic,
but well, so is unschooling... anyway if this has been hashed out before
and decided to be off-topic, please let me know and I'll look in the
archives.
I figured that it IS on topic, because the main reason vaccination is
"compulsory" is because it is required (usually) for admission to public
schools. So, without that particular hassle, do you decide to vaccinate
your children anyway? If so, is it an "informed" decision or have you
even thought about it?
I'm not even quite sure what I'm trying to ask here... I guess just that
if you have an opinion, I'm curious to know what it is, and why.
Thanks!
Nicole
[email protected]
Nicole,
Yes it is controversial. HS does remove the "problem" of dealing with
questions from schools. Here in Canada, vax is not required by law, or to
attend a school. Our son only had the tetanus when he was older. This is a
less- reactive vaccine. Terrible though, making him get a needle at almost
3. I'll never do that again!
cath
Yes it is controversial. HS does remove the "problem" of dealing with
questions from schools. Here in Canada, vax is not required by law, or to
attend a school. Our son only had the tetanus when he was older. This is a
less- reactive vaccine. Terrible though, making him get a needle at almost
3. I'll never do that again!
cath
Cindy L.
Nicole,
We also are leery of vaccinations. Our son has only had tetanus shots. I
was concerned because of my history of autoimmune problems which began at 18
months. As it turns out my son is affected by a genetic disorder, but is
much healthier than I was at his age. It's one of those things we'll never
know- would he have fared worse w/ the vaccines or would there be no
difference.
My son has a speech delay and many of the parents I've encountered have
concerns with the MMR shot and its relation to PDD &/or autism. My son does
not have this dx, but many with speech delays do.
Our biggest problem has been finding Drs. that accept our decision. We went
to a MD who practiced Homeopathy for a while, but found the quality of care
overall lacking. Now we have a Ped. who is ok with us, but she's no longer
on our insurance plan and we fear looking for a new Dr. In Missouri we can
declare a religious exemption for the schools, so that's not what brings us
to homeschooling- just our unorthodox attitude in general.
BTW- this is one of those issues where I can understand both sides, I never
try to change anyone else's opinion, and I am quite wary of discussing this
topic with most people. Shortly before I became pregnant my new kitten
almost died from a vaccine reaction, this caused me to begin my research and
ultimately led us to the decision we've made.
Cindy L.
We also are leery of vaccinations. Our son has only had tetanus shots. I
was concerned because of my history of autoimmune problems which began at 18
months. As it turns out my son is affected by a genetic disorder, but is
much healthier than I was at his age. It's one of those things we'll never
know- would he have fared worse w/ the vaccines or would there be no
difference.
My son has a speech delay and many of the parents I've encountered have
concerns with the MMR shot and its relation to PDD &/or autism. My son does
not have this dx, but many with speech delays do.
Our biggest problem has been finding Drs. that accept our decision. We went
to a MD who practiced Homeopathy for a while, but found the quality of care
overall lacking. Now we have a Ped. who is ok with us, but she's no longer
on our insurance plan and we fear looking for a new Dr. In Missouri we can
declare a religious exemption for the schools, so that's not what brings us
to homeschooling- just our unorthodox attitude in general.
BTW- this is one of those issues where I can understand both sides, I never
try to change anyone else's opinion, and I am quite wary of discussing this
topic with most people. Shortly before I became pregnant my new kitten
almost died from a vaccine reaction, this caused me to begin my research and
ultimately led us to the decision we've made.
Cindy L.
Lynda
I can tell you about Hep A & B which I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
They were tested without the knowledge of the parents on Native American
children and Alaskan Native children. Both these groups are experiencing
neurological problems that have never been seen in either of these groups
before. Also, they have absolutely no idea how long these vaccines last.
Further, CDC's own guidelines for Hep B are contradictory to the all out
push to vaccinate every child in the U.S. And, it is interesting that more
children have died from the vaccine than died from Hep B.
Lynda, who has 3 boys with ADD/ADHD and 1 who doesn't. Guess who wasn't
vaccinated.
----------
They were tested without the knowledge of the parents on Native American
children and Alaskan Native children. Both these groups are experiencing
neurological problems that have never been seen in either of these groups
before. Also, they have absolutely no idea how long these vaccines last.
Further, CDC's own guidelines for Hep B are contradictory to the all out
push to vaccinate every child in the U.S. And, it is interesting that more
children have died from the vaccine than died from Hep B.
Lynda, who has 3 boys with ADD/ADHD and 1 who doesn't. Guess who wasn't
vaccinated.
----------
> From: Nicole Brown <nbrown@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccination
> Date: Thursday, September 21, 2000 5:48 PM
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I was just reading a book about the controversy over compulsory
> vaccination for children - "The Vaccine Guide, Making An Informed
> Choice" by Randall Neustaedter OMD. Was wondering what this group thinks
> of the issue.
>
> I hesitate to post this question, because it is a controversial topic,
> but well, so is unschooling... anyway if this has been hashed out before
> and decided to be off-topic, please let me know and I'll look in the
> archives.
>
> I figured that it IS on topic, because the main reason vaccination is
> "compulsory" is because it is required (usually) for admission to public
> schools. So, without that particular hassle, do you decide to vaccinate
> your children anyway? If so, is it an "informed" decision or have you
> even thought about it?
>
> I'm not even quite sure what I'm trying to ask here... I guess just that
> if you have an opinion, I'm curious to know what it is, and why.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Nicole
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
[email protected]
Some yes, some no. I won't vaccinate for social reasons, i.e., 'let's
vaccinate for diseases they'll be exposed to as a teenager, because all teens
have sex and we want to be sure and get everyone, so we'll start when they
are babies'. Nope, not in our family.
Beyond that, we look at the likelihood of actually being exposed to a
particular disease, the risks to the child from the vaccine vs risks from
disease and go from there. For example ds is 12. As an infant he was
vaccinated for MMR (before I even thought to argue about it). The risk of
bad results from catching any of these diseases increases pretty
significantly for older children/adults, so we will continue that series.
I always keep vaccinations up to date for tetanus. It is a disease that is
around today, with real potential to exposure. Also, the disease itself has
a high incidence of death or paralysis. Compared to the risks of the
immunization, it makes sense to me.
To continue polio vaccines makes no sense to me. I realize polio vaccine was
quite a breakthrough and the original development of this vaccine spared lots
of people their lives or life long disability. In fact, my SIL had polio and
still has some residual effects of the disease. However, polio is not a
disease we are likely to be exposed to, so the vaccine risk is too high.
Were there a major epidemic, I would look again at this decision.
(unfortunately, ds has already received this one, too...way back when...)
The biggest reason I don't vaccinate is a personal belief that all these
vaccinations are harming the individual and society. I believe the process
of vaccinations actually disable the immune system, leaving the body more
disease prone either from contagious illness or injury from the vaccine.
It's a gut level reaction. I've seen some studies and articles on the
subject which explained it much better than that but for me it came down to a
gut reaction. When I have researched the subject or read articles pro or
con, I come away consistently feeling it is not right for me or my children.
An interesting side note is that I'm having major health problems. It
appears that I have an auto-immune dysfunction which is hereditary and
metabolic. The metabolic part effects how my body processes everything,
including vaccines or medications. My children appear to have inherited this
disease from me. I am convinced we would be in even worse shape if we had
all the recommended vaccinations.
My church does not have a stand against vaccinations, but, because it is a
'gut' reaction for me, I have never hesitated to declare exemption due to
religious reasons.
FWIW,
Eiraul
vaccinate for diseases they'll be exposed to as a teenager, because all teens
have sex and we want to be sure and get everyone, so we'll start when they
are babies'. Nope, not in our family.
Beyond that, we look at the likelihood of actually being exposed to a
particular disease, the risks to the child from the vaccine vs risks from
disease and go from there. For example ds is 12. As an infant he was
vaccinated for MMR (before I even thought to argue about it). The risk of
bad results from catching any of these diseases increases pretty
significantly for older children/adults, so we will continue that series.
I always keep vaccinations up to date for tetanus. It is a disease that is
around today, with real potential to exposure. Also, the disease itself has
a high incidence of death or paralysis. Compared to the risks of the
immunization, it makes sense to me.
To continue polio vaccines makes no sense to me. I realize polio vaccine was
quite a breakthrough and the original development of this vaccine spared lots
of people their lives or life long disability. In fact, my SIL had polio and
still has some residual effects of the disease. However, polio is not a
disease we are likely to be exposed to, so the vaccine risk is too high.
Were there a major epidemic, I would look again at this decision.
(unfortunately, ds has already received this one, too...way back when...)
The biggest reason I don't vaccinate is a personal belief that all these
vaccinations are harming the individual and society. I believe the process
of vaccinations actually disable the immune system, leaving the body more
disease prone either from contagious illness or injury from the vaccine.
It's a gut level reaction. I've seen some studies and articles on the
subject which explained it much better than that but for me it came down to a
gut reaction. When I have researched the subject or read articles pro or
con, I come away consistently feeling it is not right for me or my children.
An interesting side note is that I'm having major health problems. It
appears that I have an auto-immune dysfunction which is hereditary and
metabolic. The metabolic part effects how my body processes everything,
including vaccines or medications. My children appear to have inherited this
disease from me. I am convinced we would be in even worse shape if we had
all the recommended vaccinations.
My church does not have a stand against vaccinations, but, because it is a
'gut' reaction for me, I have never hesitated to declare exemption due to
religious reasons.
FWIW,
Eiraul
aworthen
----- Original Message -----
From: Nicole Brown <nbrown@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2000 8:48 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccination
Hi Nicle,
Our family has chosen to vaccinate against everything but varicella for dd
#3 (we didn't need to for dds 1 & 2 because they had chicken pox naturally).
IMO, I think it's too risky to not vaccinate against more serious diseases.
YMMV. Good luck in your decision making.
Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
The World Is Our Classroom
[email protected]
>My dh and I are pretty much pro-vaccination. *However* we have
> I was just reading a book about the controversy over compulsory
> vaccination for children - "The Vaccine Guide, Making An Informed
> Choice" by Randall Neustaedter OMD. Was wondering what this group
> thinks of the issue.
delayed the vaccinations with our children until they are at a point
where we feel their immune systems can build and so that we can
know if they have any allergens that may put them in a risk factor
for certain vaccines. Part of our reasoning is based on personal
family experience. My grandmother lost 2 children to diptheria.
My MIL and an aunt both were severely handicapped by polio.
When we do start vaccinations we do it on *our* terms. We have
our child get *one* vaccination at a time (none of this 3 or 4
different things to fight off at the same time) and we wait at least a
month between vaccinations. Our son has some developmental
delays and so we have decided to forgo the MMR until he has
shown more progess in his speech and motor skills. Following this
method our children have been completely vaccinated by the time
they are 5. The only vaccination we haven't done yet is the Hep. B.
We figure that our children aren't at a risk factor for this disease
yet and our doctor agrees and doesn't recommend the full series
until children are teens.
Some people think that we are torturing our children by having
them at the doctor's so much to be "poked" but they have no ill-
feelings about going to the doctor. They are only in pain for a little
while (we use homeopathic remedy to help eliminate the injection
pain quickly) and we figure the little bit of time that they are in pain
is worth the benefit of helping to ward off these diseases that are
so horrible.
Michelle
Woman, Mommy, Wife, Scrapper, Stamper, Baker, Gardner
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - Albert Einstein
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
>IMO, I think it's too risky to not vaccinate against more serious diseases.When I was 14 I got Chicken Pox for the first time. We had all thought I had it before when I was 3, but apparently that was just really bad measles. I have always had a weakened immune system from depression, stress and other physical factors, and I was always a sickly kid. But getting the Chicken Pox when I was 14 was one of the worst times I have ever been sick in my life. It's a wonder I am not horribly scarred, as every doctor we saw said it was the worst case they had ever seen, and I had those blisters EVERYWHERE! In my ears, bottoms of my feet, under my hair, everywhere.
>YMMV. Good luck in your decision making.
>Amy
Anyway, I very nearly died. I have been that sick before a few times and been hospitalized for it, and very nearly died before, but what made this the worst was that I was sick for 10 whole weeks solid. It took 8 weeks before I began to show any signs of recovery, and another two weeks for me to get back enough strength to move around, walk, and begin to function again and put back some of the weight and muscle tissue I had lost.
What has this got to do with vaccinations? Well I had my Chicken Pox vaccination, and it didn't do me a damn bit of good.
Nanci K.
------------------------------------------------------------
Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
aworthen
----- Original Message -----
From: Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall <tn-k4of5@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 4:19 PM
Subject: RE:[Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccination
> When I was 14 I got Chicken Pox for the first time. We had all thought I
had it before when I was 3, but apparently that was just really bad measles.
Hugh misconception here. It is possible to get CP more than once, especially
if you were that young and/or had a very mild case.
Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
The World Is Our Classroom
Valerie
When I was 14 I got Chicken Pox for the first time. We had all thought I
had it before when I was 3, but apparently that was just really bad measles.
I have always had a weakened immune system from depression, stress and other
physical factors, and I was always a sickly kid. But getting the Chicken
Pox when I was 14 was one of the worst times I have ever been sick in my
life. It's a wonder I am not horribly scarred, as every doctor we saw said
it was the worst case they had ever seen, and I had those blisters
EVERYWHERE! In my ears, bottoms of my feet, under my hair, everywhere.
Anyway, I very nearly died. I have been that sick before a few times and
been hospitalized for it, and very nearly died before, but what made this
the worst was that I was sick for 10 whole weeks solid. It took 8 weeks
before I began to show any signs of recovery, and another two weeks for me
to get back enough strength to move around, walk, and begin to function
again and put back some of the weight and muscle tissue I had lost.
What has this got to do with vaccinations? Well I had my Chicken Pox
vaccination, and it didn't do me a damn bit of good.
Nanci K.
Whoa Nanci, how long ago was this that you were vaccinated? Has the vaccine
been around that long? Was it given to you because of your weakened immune
system?
When my two older daughters and their cousins had chickenpox, it was really
something. They had it _everywhere_: in their ear canals, in their noses,
down their throat, in their private parts, even one on an eyeball. Since
they were so young, between 1 and 5, there wasn't any permanent scarring. It
was a really tough couple of weeks, though.
---Valerie
had it before when I was 3, but apparently that was just really bad measles.
I have always had a weakened immune system from depression, stress and other
physical factors, and I was always a sickly kid. But getting the Chicken
Pox when I was 14 was one of the worst times I have ever been sick in my
life. It's a wonder I am not horribly scarred, as every doctor we saw said
it was the worst case they had ever seen, and I had those blisters
EVERYWHERE! In my ears, bottoms of my feet, under my hair, everywhere.
Anyway, I very nearly died. I have been that sick before a few times and
been hospitalized for it, and very nearly died before, but what made this
the worst was that I was sick for 10 whole weeks solid. It took 8 weeks
before I began to show any signs of recovery, and another two weeks for me
to get back enough strength to move around, walk, and begin to function
again and put back some of the weight and muscle tissue I had lost.
What has this got to do with vaccinations? Well I had my Chicken Pox
vaccination, and it didn't do me a damn bit of good.
Nanci K.
Whoa Nanci, how long ago was this that you were vaccinated? Has the vaccine
been around that long? Was it given to you because of your weakened immune
system?
When my two older daughters and their cousins had chickenpox, it was really
something. They had it _everywhere_: in their ear canals, in their noses,
down their throat, in their private parts, even one on an eyeball. Since
they were so young, between 1 and 5, there wasn't any permanent scarring. It
was a really tough couple of weeks, though.
---Valerie
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/22/2000 6:28:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
valeries@... writes:
that the chicken pox vaccine has only been available for a few years. It was
first offered to us when Haley was 1 -- she's now almost 4.
Carron
valeries@... writes:
> Whoa Nanci, how long ago was this that you were vaccinated? Has the vaccineI wonder about this too, just because our nurse-practitioner was explaining
> been around that long? Was it given to you because of your weakened immune
> system?
>
that the chicken pox vaccine has only been available for a few years. It was
first offered to us when Haley was 1 -- she's now almost 4.
Carron
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/22/2000 12:35:05 AM Central Daylight Time,
braunville@... writes:
arguments, read the articles, discussed it with many people including health
professionals and families who choose a different course, and we have chosen
to continue vaccinating our children.
One thing I'm concerned about is that the more people choose not to
vaccinate, the risk to the unvaccinated children (and adults) goes up. If
90% of people vaccinate, the risk of the disease exposure is small. If 75%
of people vaccinate, the risk is greater.
If everyone decided not to vaccinate, would we be taking our children to the
doctor for polio treatments instead of innoculations? As things stand now,
it seems that unvaccinated people are protected from disease only because
most of their neighbors are vaccinated. When I was a kid (40 years ago), my
mom never had me vaccinated for smallpox, which we don't even do now, anyway.
But at that time, smallpox was a real threat. She kept promising the school
officials she'd have it done, but she never did. Her reasoning was that I
didn't need it because everyone else had one, so the risk of contracting
smallpox from the vaccination was greater than the risk from exposure.
Of course, there are people who have serious reactions to these vaccintations
and thank goodness they have the freedom to forego them. But no one in our
family has ever had a reaction, thank goodness. I'm sure that colors my
reasoning. But I will continue to vaccinate to protect my children from what
could very well be devestating diseases.
Carron
braunville@... writes:
> Beyond that, we look at the likelihood of actually being exposed to aI think your approach is very reasonable and thoughtful. I've looked at the
> particular disease, the risks to the child from the vaccine vs risks from
> disease and go from there.
arguments, read the articles, discussed it with many people including health
professionals and families who choose a different course, and we have chosen
to continue vaccinating our children.
One thing I'm concerned about is that the more people choose not to
vaccinate, the risk to the unvaccinated children (and adults) goes up. If
90% of people vaccinate, the risk of the disease exposure is small. If 75%
of people vaccinate, the risk is greater.
If everyone decided not to vaccinate, would we be taking our children to the
doctor for polio treatments instead of innoculations? As things stand now,
it seems that unvaccinated people are protected from disease only because
most of their neighbors are vaccinated. When I was a kid (40 years ago), my
mom never had me vaccinated for smallpox, which we don't even do now, anyway.
But at that time, smallpox was a real threat. She kept promising the school
officials she'd have it done, but she never did. Her reasoning was that I
didn't need it because everyone else had one, so the risk of contracting
smallpox from the vaccination was greater than the risk from exposure.
Of course, there are people who have serious reactions to these vaccintations
and thank goodness they have the freedom to forego them. But no one in our
family has ever had a reaction, thank goodness. I'm sure that colors my
reasoning. But I will continue to vaccinate to protect my children from what
could very well be devestating diseases.
Carron
Nanci and Thomas Kuykendall
how long ago was this that you were vaccinated? Has the vaccine
But I did have previous exposure to it for sure, from my brother and others. It didn't save me from having an almost fatal case of Chicken Pox. Would the vaccine have offered more exposure, or "better" exposure, and would it have been sufficient to save me from the pain and suffering? Who knows...?
Nanci K.
------------------------------------------------------------
Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
>> been around that long?I posted an ammendment to the original post right after I sent it. I got to thinking that I guess I wasn't vaccinated, and I have not seen that post. Anyway, i was aware of my mistake almost immediately after I hit the send button. Damned cyber delays...(mutter mutter)
But I did have previous exposure to it for sure, from my brother and others. It didn't save me from having an almost fatal case of Chicken Pox. Would the vaccine have offered more exposure, or "better" exposure, and would it have been sufficient to save me from the pain and suffering? Who knows...?
Nanci K.
------------------------------------------------------------
Show off your pagan (and Idaho) pride, get Idaho Pagan Mail(tm) today!
Sign up at http://www.idahopagan.com/
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/22/2000 5:28:32 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Cararmst@... writes:
decision about this issue. What frustrates me is that there really aren't
any concrete answers, only lots of theories. I would really appreciate it is
the powers that be (who ever 'they' are...) would simply give real
information to parents and let us make the decision. I really get uneasy
with the advertising, legal requirements and other coercive methods used to
persuade everyone to get their shots (go to ps, pay your taxes, vote for the
right political party, conserve water, save the whales, go to church...pick a
topic). It just causes me deep down distrust.
Because of that distrust, I'll only get the vaccinations I feel comfortable
about. I wish I had a more scientific method. It sometimes leaves me
feeling unsettled to examine my motives/reasons. Fortunately (maybe
unfortunately...? <bg>), my gut reactions have proven pretty good many more
times than not.
I join you in appreciation for the freedom to make the choice that is right
for the individual. We have different needs even within our family. DH has
been vaccinated for everything and then some. Eight years in the military on
mobility assignments and then a civilian job overseas saw to that. His
health is strong and it doesn't seem to have hurt him any. OTOH, I'll bet if
I had the same vaccinations, I'd be even sicker than I am now.
One thing I will do is fight for the right of the individual to make the
choice. Freedom is messy. With it comes responsibility. That includes the
impact my choices have on the people around me and vice versa. Mandating or
legislating some things simply should not be done. IMO, vaccines are one of
those things.
FWIW, I really am appreciating this discussion. It can be a heated topic.
I'm learning more from it. Thanks to all that are participating.
Eiraul
Cararmst@... writes:
>75%
> One thing I'm concerned about is that the more people choose not to
> vaccinate, the risk to the unvaccinated children (and adults) goes up. If
> 90% of people vaccinate, the risk of the disease exposure is small. If
> of people vaccinate, the risk is greater.the
>
> If everyone decided not to vaccinate, would we be taking our children to
>now,
> doctor for polio treatments instead of innoculations? As things stand
> it seems that unvaccinated people are protected from disease only becauseI think your point is very valid. IMO everyone should make a studied
> most of their neighbors are vaccinated.
decision about this issue. What frustrates me is that there really aren't
any concrete answers, only lots of theories. I would really appreciate it is
the powers that be (who ever 'they' are...) would simply give real
information to parents and let us make the decision. I really get uneasy
with the advertising, legal requirements and other coercive methods used to
persuade everyone to get their shots (go to ps, pay your taxes, vote for the
right political party, conserve water, save the whales, go to church...pick a
topic). It just causes me deep down distrust.
Because of that distrust, I'll only get the vaccinations I feel comfortable
about. I wish I had a more scientific method. It sometimes leaves me
feeling unsettled to examine my motives/reasons. Fortunately (maybe
unfortunately...? <bg>), my gut reactions have proven pretty good many more
times than not.
I join you in appreciation for the freedom to make the choice that is right
for the individual. We have different needs even within our family. DH has
been vaccinated for everything and then some. Eight years in the military on
mobility assignments and then a civilian job overseas saw to that. His
health is strong and it doesn't seem to have hurt him any. OTOH, I'll bet if
I had the same vaccinations, I'd be even sicker than I am now.
One thing I will do is fight for the right of the individual to make the
choice. Freedom is messy. With it comes responsibility. That includes the
impact my choices have on the people around me and vice versa. Mandating or
legislating some things simply should not be done. IMO, vaccines are one of
those things.
FWIW, I really am appreciating this discussion. It can be a heated topic.
I'm learning more from it. Thanks to all that are participating.
Eiraul
Lynda
It has been around a while, they wanted to give it to son #4 and I said no.
He's almost 17 now and he was about 2 then.
Also, as to NA's needing to have the vaccines, well, that was then and this
is now. Yes, no one had any immunities to the disease when it was first
brought over, but it has been here for a few hundred years now and once
someone/groups is exposed and some survive the disease and the have
children, the body adjusts.
I am NA, my relatives, grand's, great's etc. all were and they all survived
CP as did I. I have one scar on my forehead. The kidlets all got them and
measles and roseola and mumps. One child got one scar but that was from
measles.
The other difference between now and then and other countries is sanitation
and knowledge. We know a lot more about these things, have better
antiseptic methods and know more about what to do and expect.
Lynda
----------
He's almost 17 now and he was about 2 then.
Also, as to NA's needing to have the vaccines, well, that was then and this
is now. Yes, no one had any immunities to the disease when it was first
brought over, but it has been here for a few hundred years now and once
someone/groups is exposed and some survive the disease and the have
children, the body adjusts.
I am NA, my relatives, grand's, great's etc. all were and they all survived
CP as did I. I have one scar on my forehead. The kidlets all got them and
measles and roseola and mumps. One child got one scar but that was from
measles.
The other difference between now and then and other countries is sanitation
and knowledge. We know a lot more about these things, have better
antiseptic methods and know more about what to do and expect.
Lynda
----------
> From: Cararmst@...vaccine
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccination
> Date: Friday, September 22, 2000 4:36 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 9/22/2000 6:28:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
> valeries@... writes:
>
> > Whoa Nanci, how long ago was this that you were vaccinated? Has the
> > been around that long? Was it given to you because of your weakenedimmune
> > system?explaining
> >
>
> I wonder about this too, just because our nurse-practitioner was
> that the chicken pox vaccine has only been available for a few years. Itwas
> first offered to us when Haley was 1 -- she's now almost 4.
>
> Carron
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
Cindy L.
>the
> If everyone decided not to vaccinate, would we be taking our children to
> doctor for polio treatments instead of innoculations? As things standnow,
> it seems that unvaccinated people are protected from disease only becausevaccintations
> most of their neighbors are vaccinated.
>
> Of course, there are people who have serious reactions to these
> and thank goodness they have the freedom to forego them.This type of argument about the group taking precedence over an individual's
>
> Carron
needs and rights is exactly the type of argument used against homeschoolers
all the time. So often I hear how homeschoolers are destroying the public
schools, how we only think about ourselves.
Also our 'freedom' to choose in this case is not very strong in many states.
As most people don't feel they have a choice, and there is no significant
recourse for those harmed by vaccines, the drug companies have no pressure
to really make changes, such as replacing mercury & other toxic contaminants
that are now part of many vaccines.
Then there are the theories that disease has some role to play in the world,
and as we eradicate one, another shows up to replace. Epidemics come and go
throughout history and there is some evidence that the polio epidemic was
dying out on its own at time the vaccine for it was introduced. I'm just
throwing out some of the concerns I have read over the years. Unfortunately
it's difficult to find information that is not on one extreme of the issue
or the other.
Cindy L.
Nancy Song
Nicole Brown <nbrown@...> wrote:
When I had my babies It was a trust in God not to vaccinate.It felt like everyone wanted to test, poke and scare me into putting something into there perfect little bodies. I went to the father, told him my troubles, and his wisdom I depended on.We can't possiably know all the junk.God has helped me with all these kinds of things because I trust in him.
Hi,
I was just reading a book about the controversy over compulsory
vaccination for children - "The Vaccine Guide, Making An Informed
Choice" by Randall Neustaedter OMD. Was wondering what this group thinks
of the issue.
I hesitate to post this question, because it is a controversial topic,
but well, so is unschooling... anyway if this has been hashed out before
and decided to be off-topic, please let me know and I'll look in the
archives.
I figured that it IS on topic, because the main reason vaccination is
"compulsory" is because it is required (usually) for admission to public
schools. So, without that particular hassle, do you decide to vaccinate
your children anyway? If so, is it an "informed" decision or have you
even thought about it?
I'm not even quite sure what I'm trying to ask here... I guess just that
if you have an opinion, I'm curious to know what it is, and why.
Thanks!
Nicole
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
Addresses:
Post message: [email protected]
Unsubscribe: [email protected]
List owner: [email protected]
List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Do You Yahoo!?
Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/23/00 12:06:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
clappin@... writes:
<< This type of argument about the group taking precedence over an
individual's
needs and rights is exactly the type of argument used against homeschoolers
all the time. So often I hear how homeschoolers are destroying the public
schools, how we only think about ourselves.
cath
clappin@... writes:
<< This type of argument about the group taking precedence over an
individual's
needs and rights is exactly the type of argument used against homeschoolers
all the time. So often I hear how homeschoolers are destroying the public
schools, how we only think about ourselves.
>>Very interesting point, cindy.
cath
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/23/2000 11:06:21 AM Central Daylight Time,
clappin@... writes:
the group takes precedence over an individual's needs. But I don't think
that is the case here. In my state, children are only required to be
vaccinated when they enroll in public school. If parents choose not to
vaccinate, there are other options. Like private school, religious
exemptions, medical exemptions, homeschooling. And, I've known a number of
families who chose those options. My freedom to homeschool is not affected,
as far as I can tell, because I chose to vaccinate my children.
I did choose to vaccinate my children because I choose to live in this
society. I believe that until certain diseases are erradicated (and maybe
not even then), my children are at risk of contracting those diseases. For
our family, the risk of the diseases is worse than the risks associated with
the vaccines. I also recognize that when we vaccinate our children, we help
protect those who are unvaccinated, which is fine by us.
I guess when it comes down to it, the hype put out by the medical community,
including the pharmeceutical companies, makes more sense to me than the hype
put out by the anti-vaccination contingent. On a more personal level, I also
trust my pediatrician and my nurse-practitioner. They've done well by us for
8 years.
Carron
clappin@... writes:
> This type of argument about the group taking precedence over an individual'sI don't quite grasp your argument. Living in a society means that at times,
> needs and rights is exactly the type of argument used against homeschoolers
> all the time.
the group takes precedence over an individual's needs. But I don't think
that is the case here. In my state, children are only required to be
vaccinated when they enroll in public school. If parents choose not to
vaccinate, there are other options. Like private school, religious
exemptions, medical exemptions, homeschooling. And, I've known a number of
families who chose those options. My freedom to homeschool is not affected,
as far as I can tell, because I chose to vaccinate my children.
I did choose to vaccinate my children because I choose to live in this
society. I believe that until certain diseases are erradicated (and maybe
not even then), my children are at risk of contracting those diseases. For
our family, the risk of the diseases is worse than the risks associated with
the vaccines. I also recognize that when we vaccinate our children, we help
protect those who are unvaccinated, which is fine by us.
I guess when it comes down to it, the hype put out by the medical community,
including the pharmeceutical companies, makes more sense to me than the hype
put out by the anti-vaccination contingent. On a more personal level, I also
trust my pediatrician and my nurse-practitioner. They've done well by us for
8 years.
Carron
Tracy Oldfield
This thread came up a couple of weeks ago on a different list. I
didn't take part, but read with great interest (like you do...) Are
we being selfish, voting with our feet as we do? I don't think so.
Why? Because it has been shown before, it's not possible to
change school from the inside (as those who accuse HE-ors of
selfishness would have us attempt) it will always be school. And
especially for us unschoolers, that's just not what we want. Make
sense? does to me!
Tracy, who doesn't believe in institutionalising children...
didn't take part, but read with great interest (like you do...) Are
we being selfish, voting with our feet as we do? I don't think so.
Why? Because it has been shown before, it's not possible to
change school from the inside (as those who accuse HE-ors of
selfishness would have us attempt) it will always be school. And
especially for us unschoolers, that's just not what we want. Make
sense? does to me!
Tracy, who doesn't believe in institutionalising children...
Lynda
What she said was the same arguments are used against homeschooling as are
used by folks who are against not vaccinating not that vaccinations and
homeschooling had anything to do with each other.
Having worked in the medical field for more years than I care to count, I
can tell you first hand that most doctors/DO's/FNPs/PAs, etc. do NOT look
further than what they are given by the drug companies. The few that
investigate and look to see what is really going on are labeled as "nuts,"
or "fanatics." So to "trust" in what you are being told by the average FNP
is to take the drug companies as gospel.
And, please remember, these are the same companies that said that using
sheep infected with scrapie wouldn't cause BSE in cattle. Yeah right and
now all of Europe is under seige because of mad cow disease! Now these
same companies are saying "but it shouldn't have crossed the species
barrier."
Lynda
----------
used by folks who are against not vaccinating not that vaccinations and
homeschooling had anything to do with each other.
Having worked in the medical field for more years than I care to count, I
can tell you first hand that most doctors/DO's/FNPs/PAs, etc. do NOT look
further than what they are given by the drug companies. The few that
investigate and look to see what is really going on are labeled as "nuts,"
or "fanatics." So to "trust" in what you are being told by the average FNP
is to take the drug companies as gospel.
And, please remember, these are the same companies that said that using
sheep infected with scrapie wouldn't cause BSE in cattle. Yeah right and
now all of Europe is under seige because of mad cow disease! Now these
same companies are saying "but it shouldn't have crossed the species
barrier."
Lynda
----------
> From: Cararmst@...individual's
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccination
> Date: Saturday, September 23, 2000 8:13 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 9/23/2000 11:06:21 AM Central Daylight Time,
> clappin@... writes:
>
> > This type of argument about the group taking precedence over an
> > needs and rights is exactly the type of argument used againsthomeschoolers
> > all the time.times,
>
> I don't quite grasp your argument. Living in a society means that at
> the group takes precedence over an individual's needs. But I don't thinkof
> that is the case here. In my state, children are only required to be
> vaccinated when they enroll in public school. If parents choose not to
> vaccinate, there are other options. Like private school, religious
> exemptions, medical exemptions, homeschooling. And, I've known a number
> families who chose those options. My freedom to homeschool is notaffected,
> as far as I can tell, because I chose to vaccinate my children.maybe
>
> I did choose to vaccinate my children because I choose to live in this
> society. I believe that until certain diseases are erradicated (and
> not even then), my children are at risk of contracting those diseases.For
> our family, the risk of the diseases is worse than the risks associatedwith
> the vaccines. I also recognize that when we vaccinate our children, wehelp
> protect those who are unvaccinated, which is fine by us.community,
>
> I guess when it comes down to it, the hype put out by the medical
> including the pharmeceutical companies, makes more sense to me than thehype
> put out by the anti-vaccination contingent. On a more personal level, Ialso
> trust my pediatrician and my nurse-practitioner. They've done well by usfor
> 8 years.
>
> Carron
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/24/2000 6:25:23 AM Central Daylight Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
say that it didn't have anything to do with the schools, and it didn't at
that time. We were homeschooling because our son couldn't function in a
classroom with his sensory integration problems. I didn't want people to
think that I was dissing public schools. But after so many years, now, and
lots of consideration, and reading, I have come to believe that the public
school system, and really any school system, is fundamentally flawed. I
really want to say this to a few people I know whose kids are just starting
in the school system, but I'm too chicken. I pray that we will never be
forced to put our children in anything more organized than ice skating
lessons or co-op classes.
Now, it will be just my luck that my kids will WANT to go to school.
Carron
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
> AreTracy, I agree. When people would ask why we homeschool, I'd also be sure to
> we being selfish, voting with our feet as we do? I don't think so.
> Why? Because it has been shown before, it's not possible to
> change school from the inside
say that it didn't have anything to do with the schools, and it didn't at
that time. We were homeschooling because our son couldn't function in a
classroom with his sensory integration problems. I didn't want people to
think that I was dissing public schools. But after so many years, now, and
lots of consideration, and reading, I have come to believe that the public
school system, and really any school system, is fundamentally flawed. I
really want to say this to a few people I know whose kids are just starting
in the school system, but I'm too chicken. I pray that we will never be
forced to put our children in anything more organized than ice skating
lessons or co-op classes.
Now, it will be just my luck that my kids will WANT to go to school.
Carron