[email protected]

>>One time I was hysterical because my
finger was profusely bleeding. I wouldn't stop screaming and flinging blood
all over the bathroom. She spanked me sharply and I immediately calmed down.
I was glad she did it.>>

and the problem with having such strong emotions is????? Also the problem
with having blood in the bathroom is???? So what, there's blood in the
bathroom... Ah, just like another mother I know, maybe your mother didn't
want to have to clean it up and all her control issues came to the surface...
Very classic Psychology 101,

Dawn F

Valerie

>>One time I was hysterical because my
finger was profusely bleeding. I wouldn't stop screaming and flinging blood
all over the bathroom. She spanked me sharply and I immediately calmed down.
I was glad she did it.>>

and the problem with having such strong emotions is????? Also the problem
with having blood in the bathroom is???? So what, there's blood in the
bathroom... Ah, just like another mother I know, maybe your mother didn't
want to have to clean it up and all her control issues came to the
surface...
Very classic Psychology 101,

Dawn F

No, no, no.....you're not getting it. I was hysterical. I needed to hold
still so she could stop the bleeding. I couldn't even hear her saying "Stop!
Hold still!" over my own frightened screaming. (I cut myself trying to make
lunch.) She gave me one simple stinging swat on the tush and it brought me
back to earth. She didn't care about cleaning up the mess. She knew she
needed to stop the bleeding. And she was certainly used to my strong
emotions. If she had had a problem with that, I would have received a lot
more than 3 spankings in my entire life. Not a control issue at all, unless
you count first-aid as a control issue. The spanking was a simple attention
getter. No ill effects and no therapy needed.

----Valerie

Tami Labig-Duquette

Very well put Valerie!
Tami


>From: "Valerie" <valfitz@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Spanking
>Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 05:02:00 -0000
>
>Hi Kate,
>
>Would you mind telling me which Proverbs that is? Does it actually
>say, "spare the rod, spoil the child?" I was told that it doesn't.
>
>The Biblical passages are deciphered differently by different people.
>I for one do not take it so literally. I can NOT imagine Jesus
>hitting a child, whether He called it spanking or something else.
>
>I never felt that hitting/spanking a child was a civilized way of
>teaching them right from wrong. I preferred communication. I was
>spanked as a child, not 'abused.' I suffered from it, and no it
>wasn't often and it wasn't with great force. It was simply total
>humiliation. Spanking IMO is something that is used when patience is
>lost and words can't be found. Listening, REALLY listening to Laurie
>worked better than using the spanking/powertrip thing...not that I
>ever resorted to hitting her.
>
>love, Valerie
>
>--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., kate mcdaniel <K8MCD@E...> wrote:
> > I am astounded at the ridicule of the Proverb "Spare the rod, spoil
>the
> > child". As parents we are commanded by God to be responsible for
>the
> > upbringing of our child. This includes discipline. Does it mean
>to "beat"
> > them? NO! It means to correct and discourage them from
>disobeying. That
> > sometimes means using a physical form of correction. Please give
>me one
> > example of a child that was "spanked" as means of correcting that
>has been
> > emotionally damaged. I am not talking about those cases of abuse.
> > I don't believe "spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains at all to
>the
> > disallowing of a child to attend ps for fear of the bullying he/she
>will
> > experience. "Spare the rod, spoil the child" pertains to Biblical
>discipline
> > of our children.
> > On Fri, 04 May 2001 07:46:59 EDT, Unschooling-dotcom@y... wrote:
> >
> > > When I first had children, I heard the comment "don't pick him
>up you'll
> > spoil him." Luckily I read somewhere that "things only spoil when
>left
> > alone to ROT!" ambersand
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Nothing irks me more than that saying.."Spare the rod and spoil
>the
> > child." I always reply...."I prefer a spoiled child to a beaten
>one."
> > >
> > > love, Valerie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Nanci Kuykendall <aisliin@y...>
>wrote:
> > > > >I read too much, I think; half of the 'experts' say
> > > > >that children shouldn't be pushed too hard, the other
> > > > >>says that their anxieties and fears will overwhelm
> > > > >them later if they don't learn how to deal with them
> > > > >by overcoming teasing etc. in childhood. I end up
> > > > >feeling pilloried between the conflicting assertions,
> > > > >damned if I do and damned if I don't.
> > > > >Eileen
> > > >
> > > > You know Eileen, I had plenty of
> > > > teasing/torment/ostracizing in public school and I
> > > > don't think it did me a damned bit of good. I could
> > > > have done without every scrap. If I had respectful
> > > > parents who taught by example, a happy childhood and
> > > > less (or no) stress, I would have turned out so much
> > > > less screwed up, with fewer issues to work through and
> > > > deal with as an adult. It would have saved me so much
> > > > time and heartache.
> > > >
> > > > Don't lament that "sparing the rod will spoil the
> > > > child" please!! Rejoice in the fact that you treat
> > > > your child like a human being and you do not subject
> > > > him to experiences that YOU would not want to undergo.
> > > > Perhaps if I had not been subjected to the horrors of
> > > > "socialization" in public schools I would not have
> > > > been such a profoundly unhappy and deeply terrified
> > > > child. I have few happy memories of my childhood,
> > > > which in retrospect seems like a string of painful
> > > > memories best left behind.
> > > >
> > > > Nanci K.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > __________________________________________________
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Alan & Brenda Leonard

> Makes life more pleasant for the child growing up for sure
> but we can't condemn children to be something horrible because of a spanking
> as a child.

I don't think that we're talking about condemning children to be seriel
killers if they were spanked. You've taken a reasonable question and
exaggerated it to the point that it's meaningless.

I was spanked, hard and frequently as a child. Yes, I'm happy, and you'd
probably figure to meet me that I'm reasonably well adjusted. But it's
taken a lot of hard, consious, and often painful emotional work to be the
kind of parent I want to be.

My sister was raised in the same environment, and didn't have the emotional
support in her marriage that I've had. She's not a serial killer, either.
The last I heard, she was waitressing and was well-liked by customers.
She's friendly and chatty. She also abandonded her children and hasn't
spoken to our parents in 14 years. Somehow, I think that's closer to what
the questioner originally meant. It's not about the physical hurt of a
child. It's not about making life more pleasant. It's about the emotional
scars.
>
> Nope, maybe in spite of our upbringings we will be what we are
> innately supposed to be.

Do you really believe this? Because I hard to believe that my sister was
supposed to turn out to be what she is. I can't believe that her actions,
which have brought so much pain to so many people, were "innately supposed
to be".

I know that some people believe in predestination, and perhaps your faith is
one of those. Personally, I couldn't believe in a God that would intend
such a thing.

> BTW, I don't spank and wouldn't spank.

I have, wish I hadn't, and try hard every single day not to. Every day, I
make choices to not do what seems more natural based on my upbringing.
Statements like yours hurt; they seem full of pride, and could make other
people in my situation feel shamed. Please don't.

brenda

Ren

"Not so much offended as sad that people would be so violent when
addressing such a topic as spanking and how wrong it is! Replying to
a woman who obviously needs help to stop violence with more violence
is pretty sad. "

Violence?
Does someone here have a black eye? Did anyone hit somebody when I wasn't looking? Geez, this new technology is so amazing, we can now physically ASSAULT each other through the computer!!!
Yes, I'm sarcastic....but I've about had it with all this sniveling about violence when the ONLY thing that happened was a defense of gentle parenting.

I think there is hostility being read into posts where there is NONE Jeva. That says more about how you are filtering information than it does about any single poster here.
The only thing I've seen was questions, information and more questions about how to NOT commit violence.
Chris was defending the "fact" that hitting a child is ok in certain situations. That is not a person wanting options. If she wanted options I would have been happy to answer her questions for the next year.

There is no violence at this list. There is strong information and questioning of IDEAS. Anyone who can't handle a good discussion ought to really quit whining and go find a list that is perfect for them.

Ren

jeva

Yes violence. Verbal violence. Verbal abuse is many times worse than
physical. Perhaps not a black eye but a hurt spirit.

Defend gentle parenting with verbal violence? No one will make a
positive change that way. Is this how we show our children the
importance of non-violent interaction by using sarcasm and hurtful
words? No, I think not.

Teach gentleness by being gentle.


Jeva

> Violence?
> Does someone here have a black eye? Did anyone hit somebody when I
wasn't looking? Geez, this new technology is so amazing, we can now
physically ASSAULT each other through the computer!!!
> Yes, I'm sarcastic....but I've about had it with all this sniveling
about violence when the ONLY thing that happened was a defense of
gentle parenting.
> Ren

Deborah Lewis

***Teach gentleness by being gentle.***

Today you have called people violent, hateful, disrespectful,
undignified, immature, impatient, intolerant, sarcastic, accusatory,
insulting, hostile, verbally abusive, snotty, nasty and those are just
the one's I can think of without looking back at your posts.

Teach gentleness by being gentle indeed.

Deb L

Tia Leschke

> Yes violence. Verbal violence. Verbal abuse is many times worse than
> physical. Perhaps not a black eye but a hurt spirit.

You've complained a lot about the verbal violence, but you haven't quoted
any to let us know what you're referring to. I haven't seen any verbal
violence, so I have a hard time understanding where you're coming from.
Tia

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
leschke@...

jeva

No, I called certain people's posts violent.

Yes, teach gentleness by being gentle. Teach people (adults and
children) by modeling behavior after your own. Instead of belittling
and finding fault, perhaps practice love and understanding. I cannot
advocate non-violence in word and deed unless I too practice such.

Jeva

--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> ***Teach gentleness by being gentle.***
>
> Today you have called people violent, hateful, disrespectful,
> undignified, immature, impatient, intolerant, sarcastic, accusatory,
> insulting, hostile, verbally abusive, snotty, nasty and those are
just
> the one's I can think of without looking back at your posts.
>
> Teach gentleness by being gentle indeed.
>
> Deb L

Julie Solich

<< No, I called certain people's posts violent.Yes, teach gentleness by
being gentle. Teach people (adults and
children) by modeling behavior after your own. Instead of belittling and
finding fault, perhaps practice love and understanding. I cannot advocate
non-violence in word and deed unless I too practice such.>>

So then, rather than finding fault with violent posts shouldn't you just
concentrate on posting with love and understanding thereby modelling the
kind of behaviour you think is appropriate? From where I'm reading it seems
that you are not following your own advice.


Julie

>
> ~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
>
> If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email
the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner,
Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an
email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 21/07/2003 16:44:22 Pacific Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:


> Today you have called people violent, hateful, disrespectful,
> undignified, immature, impatient, intolerant, sarcastic, accusatory,
> insulting, hostile, verbally abusive, snotty, nasty and those are just
> the one's I can think of without looking back at your posts.
>
> Teach gentleness by being gentle indeed.
>

Very well said Deb L.
Nancy in BC, still waving


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim and Maureen

----- Original Message -----
From: jeva
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2003 5:21 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-Discussion] Re: Spanking/Gentleness


<<<No, I called certain people's posts violent.

Yes, teach gentleness by being gentle. Teach people (adults and
children) by modeling behavior after your own. Instead of belittling
and finding fault, perhaps practice love and understanding. I cannot
advocate non-violence in word and deed unless I too practice such.>>>


Maybe I have missed something but I am puzzled by your talking about violent

posts and I see you as really defensive. It seems to me that maybe you would

like us to all be polite always but I think that would mean we would have to be

less than honest with one another. It is a dangerous thing to take an email to

personally. How could I or anyone truly insult you when we don't personally know

who you really are.

Maureen


Jeva

--- In [email protected], Deborah Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
> ***Teach gentleness by being gentle.***
>
> Today you have called people violent, hateful, disrespectful,
> undignified, immature, impatient, intolerant, sarcastic, accusatory,
> insulting, hostile, verbally abusive, snotty, nasty and those are
just
> the one's I can think of without looking back at your posts.
>
> Teach gentleness by being gentle indeed.
>
> Deb L



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/22/2003 1:37:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:


> I wonder what kind of adults/parents the children will become.
> >
> > ~Kelly
>
> I can say that my son has grown into a sensitive, highly artistic and
> intelligent teenager.
>

who will probably spank his own children with his mom standing by cheering
him on.

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/22/03 6:31:24 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< > I can say that my son has grown into a sensitive, highly artistic and
> intelligent teenager.
>

who will probably spank his own children with his mom standing by cheering
him on. >>

I have sensitive intelligent teenagers (and one eleven year old) who are
surprised every time they hear a parent be harsh with a child.

Sandra