[email protected]

In a message dated 9/2/2000 10:15:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hape2day@... writes:

> For the latter three groups I have learned an important lesson here.
> Although this appeared to be an open group it apparently is not. I
> have found much support here the past few weeks that I have been on
> the list and will most likely continue to lurk, however, I doubt I
> will be so quick to post especially on something that is a touchy
> topic for myself and somewhat difficult to discuss to begin with.
> With all this said I do respect each person's right to their
> oppinion. That doesn't mean I do/have to agree/like that opinion.
> Corallyn

I honestly hope you'll be able to un-lurk quickly. I'm certainly not the
list mom (do we even have one?!), and I'm sure these topics come up
repeatedly. However, what could possibly be more appropriate to this list
than a request for help in working out a difference of opinion with DH?
Answers to how to work out this particular 'problem' could just as easily
translate to how to work out when to begin reading, or what counts as
'school'. Look at how many requests there are for things like "what's a
normal 5 (2, 3, 13, etc) yr old?" "How can I show DH (or other
relatives/neighbors/school officials) that unschooling is right for me?"
"When do baby teeth fall out?"

I haven't seen a topic yet that didn't give someone an opportunity to learn
and grow. If there wasn't a need, the questions would never be asked!

This is only my opinion, but I think the original post was an appropriate
subject which brought out lots of differing opinions and different view
points, every one of which was 'tainted' by the poster's own personal
experience. That's how it works. Try not to take it personally (hard advice
for a personal topic, I know!).

It comes down to personal responsibility. Learn from the topic, contribute
to the thread or use the delete key!

I know your feelings are hurt right now and there have been hot tempers, IMO,
but don't let it keep you away.

Sincerely,
Eiraul

Corallyn

Okay. Now I am over my hurt and I am just plain angery. I have
something to say on the subject of corporal punishment. There is a
time and a place for it. In the situation that I shared about my son
running off in a packed mall I had repeatedly discussed the matter of
running off and explained to him repeatedly that I must be able to
see him at all times when we are in public. I would have explained
further as to some of the dangers, kidnapping being number one,
however I did not feel this was appropriate at his age. And maybe I
could have come up with other danger/reasons as to why I had to see
him at all times, however, at the time I was not in a situation to
readily come up with these as it was the first time I was having to
deal with this situation, he is my oldest child. He did understand
the rule of not running off and I knew he understood because he had
exhibited his understanding by not running off when it was obvious
that he wanted to. He understood. This day he was preoccupied by the
colors and lights of a near by store and forgot the rule and left me
to go to the store to explore. I would have had no problem taking him
there to look if he had just asked, but he didn't. He placed himself
in a potentially dangerous situation. The danger was that the mall
was packed. It was a weekend and in the afternoon. It was extremely
likely that he could have been kidnapped by some pervert. Anyone
watched the news lately. You know what they do to kids they take. The
danger was that whoever may have took him very likely could have
molested him in ways that you or I could never imagine that anyone
could molest, then killed him, dimembered him, cooked him and
devoured him. Any and every one of these things was likely to have
happened to him. Just as likely as it to get cut when playing with a
knife. However, he wasn't playing with a knife. He sepparated himself
from the safety of his mother without her knowledge. And to tell me
that I am abusive because I spanked him on his bare hiney for this is
ludicriss. To judge me and say that I damaged him physically,
mentally, and sexually because I spanked him on his bare hiney is
utterly rediculous especially in comparison to the possible damage of
the danger he placed himself in at that time and possibly in the
future if I had not taken the opportunity to express to him the
severity of his choice to run off. He made a choice that he knew was
wrong and I held him accountable for that choice. And after I spanked
him let him know that I still loved him. And I also let him know how
scared I was when I didn't know where he was, that I thought I would
never see him again. I hug and kiss my children every day. In nearly
6 years there hasn't been a day gone by that we haven't shared this
affection toward each other. I have always made it a point to let my
children know that there is nothing they can do or say that will make
me stop loving them. They could commit the worst crime and I will
still love them. That doesn't mean that I will agree and support what
they do. It means they will always have a place in my heart and that
place will never shrink. They know I love them and I know they love
me. So if you think that I am abusive because I spanked my child
almost 2 years ago that is your opinion. It is my opinion that you
judge too quickly seeming that you passed this judgement on me not
knowing me, my background or really much of my personal situation.
And I guess if that is the responsibility you want that is your
choice to pass that type of judgement on another person. And in
defense of DH. Just because he thinks that we should start using a
switch on the children does not make him physically abusive either.
This doesn't mean that I agree with him however it doesn't make him
abusive. Everyone has thier way of dealing with certain situations.
And just because one way is harsher than another doesn't mean it is
abuse. If the public/govn't starts dictating how a parent can and
can't disapline thier child then we all may as well send our children
to public school and let the govn't raise all children. Here is an
article that explains the difference between abuse and over
discipline. There is a huge difference. And just because a person
spanks thier child does not mean that they have over disciplined
thier child. http://www.cpswatch.com/reports/discipline.htm Corallyn

Lynda

Piffle! Now, I tried to keep this from going there but you are insisting,
so here it is! I am a mandated reporter and hitting a child until your
hand hurts or using objects to hit them with is abuse as defined by the
codes of every state.

A four year old is a child and if the child got away from an adult, it is
the ADULT's responsibility! Period!

As to judging, this isn't a case of defining "is." Who someone is or isn't
doesn't have any weight. Each and every abuser states they love their
children or spouse. Every single solitary one of them! That doesn't
justify hitting.

That article is one person's opinion and not the defintion of child abuse.
Also, the case that she uses to define the difference between excessive
discipline and abuse is typical of how an abuser starts. In most cases
they escalate to serious damages to the children. Luckily for this one
particular child that there was a worker who had the time to continually
run out and play interference for him. In the long run the sister will
probably grow up the happier and more well balanced person! The son will
probably end up a candidate for the Maury or Jenny Jones shows!

Lynda

----------
> From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH
> Date: Saturday, September 02, 2000 11:53 PM
>
>
> Okay. Now I am over my hurt and I am just plain angery. I have
> something to say on the subject of corporal punishment. There is a
> time and a place for it. In the situation that I shared about my son
> running off in a packed mall I had repeatedly discussed the matter of
> running off and explained to him repeatedly that I must be able to
> see him at all times when we are in public. I would have explained
> further as to some of the dangers, kidnapping being number one,
> however I did not feel this was appropriate at his age. And maybe I
> could have come up with other danger/reasons as to why I had to see
> him at all times, however, at the time I was not in a situation to
> readily come up with these as it was the first time I was having to
> deal with this situation, he is my oldest child. He did understand
> the rule of not running off and I knew he understood because he had
> exhibited his understanding by not running off when it was obvious
> that he wanted to. He understood. This day he was preoccupied by the
> colors and lights of a near by store and forgot the rule and left me
> to go to the store to explore. I would have had no problem taking him
> there to look if he had just asked, but he didn't. He placed himself
> in a potentially dangerous situation. The danger was that the mall
> was packed. It was a weekend and in the afternoon. It was extremely
> likely that he could have been kidnapped by some pervert. Anyone
> watched the news lately. You know what they do to kids they take. The
> danger was that whoever may have took him very likely could have
> molested him in ways that you or I could never imagine that anyone
> could molest, then killed him, dimembered him, cooked him and
> devoured him. Any and every one of these things was likely to have
> happened to him. Just as likely as it to get cut when playing with a
> knife. However, he wasn't playing with a knife. He sepparated himself
> from the safety of his mother without her knowledge. And to tell me
> that I am abusive because I spanked him on his bare hiney for this is
> ludicriss. To judge me and say that I damaged him physically,
> mentally, and sexually because I spanked him on his bare hiney is
> utterly rediculous especially in comparison to the possible damage of
> the danger he placed himself in at that time and possibly in the
> future if I had not taken the opportunity to express to him the
> severity of his choice to run off. He made a choice that he knew was
> wrong and I held him accountable for that choice. And after I spanked
> him let him know that I still loved him. And I also let him know how
> scared I was when I didn't know where he was, that I thought I would
> never see him again. I hug and kiss my children every day. In nearly
> 6 years there hasn't been a day gone by that we haven't shared this
> affection toward each other. I have always made it a point to let my
> children know that there is nothing they can do or say that will make
> me stop loving them. They could commit the worst crime and I will
> still love them. That doesn't mean that I will agree and support what
> they do. It means they will always have a place in my heart and that
> place will never shrink. They know I love them and I know they love
> me. So if you think that I am abusive because I spanked my child
> almost 2 years ago that is your opinion. It is my opinion that you
> judge too quickly seeming that you passed this judgement on me not
> knowing me, my background or really much of my personal situation.
> And I guess if that is the responsibility you want that is your
> choice to pass that type of judgement on another person. And in
> defense of DH. Just because he thinks that we should start using a
> switch on the children does not make him physically abusive either.
> This doesn't mean that I agree with him however it doesn't make him
> abusive. Everyone has thier way of dealing with certain situations.
> And just because one way is harsher than another doesn't mean it is
> abuse. If the public/govn't starts dictating how a parent can and
> can't disapline thier child then we all may as well send our children
> to public school and let the govn't raise all children. Here is an
> article that explains the difference between abuse and over
> discipline. There is a huge difference. And just because a person
> spanks thier child does not mean that they have over disciplined
> thier child. http://www.cpswatch.com/reports/discipline.htm Corallyn
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

Dawn Falbe

While is sounds like you absolutely love and adore your son, your
facts are incorrect about kidnapping... Read Gavin De Becker's Books
and you will find that most children and kidnapped (if at all) by the
other parent, wayward boyfriend, grandmother etc. It's less than 1%
of kidnaps that are by perverts and strangers. The majority of kids
that are molested and kidnapped actually know the person and the
person is usually brought into the home by the parent!!! Friends,
teachers, coaches and more likely to kidnap and molest kids than
some "pervert" walking down the street.

In his books he talks about parents worrying about kids being
kidnapped by strangers when they ought to be more concerned about
people close to them...

that's not to say I wouldn't be utterly beside myself if my son ran
off in the mall and was lost. I don't know what I'd do.

My opinion on spanking is still the same and has nothing to do with
whatever you wrote initially. I didn't read that post... my response
was to what someone wrote about corporal punishment. I still believe
spanking is abusive and if you don't that's ok, that's what you are
comfortable with. However I notice you spend a lot of time defending
it and being outraged that other people think spanking is abusive.
That's life... People in this world seem to all have differing
opinions about things and just because they don't jive with yours
does not mean they are offensive, rude or whatever you want to call
it. In my opinion, and that's exactly the only opinion I can give,
spanking is abusive. If you and I don't agree that's really ok with
me. I don't need anyone else's approval of my belief system.

Corallyn

--- In [email protected], "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> Piffle! Now, I tried to keep this from going there but you are
insisting, so here it is! I am a mandated reporter and hitting a
child until your hand hurts or using objects to hit them with is
abuse as defined by the codes of every state.

First of all I am not the one who insisted. YOU all are the ones who
chose to judge me on based on something that happened nearly 2 years
ago and if you think I am abusive to my kids call CPS on me. I really
don't give a flying______. I know what they will find. Spanking a
child one time on the bare bum doesn't not make an abuser. You can't
judge a person on ONE INCIDENT. And I don't care what your position
is. I don't care if you are a mandated reporter you are not in the
position to judge me on something you heard over the internet about
someone you never met. If you knew me personally and then chose to
judge me on what you know of me that would be completely different,
but the majority of the people who have replied to my post have
judged me based on one incident 2 years ago. Now, maybe it is that
you all think that I am a liar and therefore if I spanked him as such
2 years ago then I spank him like that every time he does something
inappropriate, but that is assuming and you have no evidence as such.
>
> A four year old is a child and if the child got away from an adult,
it is the ADULT's responsibility! Period!
>

You are absulutely right. It is my responsibility. I am responsible
for how I teach my children and at preasant the choices they make and
how I deal with those choices. And how they turn out as adults is a
reflection on me as a parent. I give them choices to make. Age
apropriate choices every day i.e. picking up after themselves, what
program do you want to watch, what story would you like to read, and
there are choices they make everyday on their own that I am not even
aware of, and they are aware of the rules. When one of these rules is
broken my manner in dealing with it is such that I allow them to take
a certain amount of responsibility for that. It is my responsibility
to teach my children that there are conciquences for the choices they
make whether it is for good or bad. This does not mean that the
responsibility I allow them to take is in the palm of my hand or a
stick or a whip or any other object. But at five almost six years old
he tends to blame me for him being sent to his room or having the toy
taken away or loosing a privilidge and the fact is that I would not
do any of these things for no reason. Which is what he tends to think
I do. And I explain to him that it is his behavior that is
inappropriate and that when he is ready to act appropriate then he
may have the privilidge returned. And our day goes on.

> As to judging, this isn't a case of defining "is." Who someone is
or isn't doesn't have any weight. Each and every abuser states they
love their children or spouse. Every single solitary one of them!
That doesn't justify hitting.
>

So if a person states that they love their children and spanks them
for something they did wrong even if it was one time they are then
defined as an abuser and need to be dealt with by the state? If
that's the case the state has some serious problem.


> That article is one person's opinion and not the defintion of child
abuse.
>

Okay so let me ask you this. By definition you mean the govn'ts
definition.(Correct me if I am wrong) So now the govn't defines what
is right and what is wrong. And their diffinition is the only one
that is right? So they are right to say that drinking is a good
thing. Because if it were bad it would be illegal, right. That
abortion is a good thing. Because if were bad it too would be illegal
That you are monitarily responsible if a person breaks into your home
and they get hurt in the process. Because if this were the case
people would not be held accountable for incidents of this type. I am
sorry but I don't let the govn't, or anyone else for that matter, to
define my life for me. Nor do I want to define another person's life
for them. I take full responsibility for my actions and I am teaching
my children to do the same. Isn't that part of why most of us chose
to homeschool in the first place. IMO, if anyone allows another
entity to define for them what is right and what is wrong may as well
send their kids to PS because they will definately learn that there
and it would be much easier on the parents offering all that free
time. (The last part of this sentance was said with sarcasm.)


Corallyn

Corallyn

--- In [email protected], "Dawn Falbe" <NumoAstro@a...>
wrote:
> While is sounds like you absolutely love and adore your son, your
facts are incorrect about kidnapping... Read Gavin De Becker's Books
and you will find that most children and kidnapped (if at all) by
the other parent, wayward boyfriend, grandmother etc. It's less
than 1% of kidnaps that are by perverts and strangers. The majority
of kids that are molested and kidnapped actually know the person and
the person is usually brought into the home by the parent!!!
Friends, teachers, coaches and more likely to kidnap and molest kids
than some "pervert" walking down the street.
>

Actually at the time this happened we were living in an area of town
that many would prefer not to live in. There were gangs and many of
our neighbors were drug dealers or had family members who were drug
dealers. There were also all other sorts of crime. However, it became
a scary situation when DH became a police officer. It is kinda hard
to hide the uniform. We were then living in "enimy" teritorry and can
you believe how many of these people would have loved to get thier
hands on the family of a police officer simply because the officer
holds them accountable for their actions or at least is part of that
process. It was very real to us that any of our neighbors would want
to do something bad to the kids simply for this reason.
> In his books he talks about parents worrying about kids being
> kidnapped by strangers when they ought to be more concerned about
> people close to them...
>
This fact I am also aware of and am also leary of those I know. I am
one who almost doesn't trust anyone with my kids. I even have a hard
time when I leave them with grandparents for the weekend although it
isn't as bad as when I went back to work after #1 and had to leave
hime with a sitter who DH had known since High School. I know that
you never REALLY know what's going on when you aren't around.
> that's not to say I wouldn't be utterly beside myself if my son ran
> off in the mall and was lost. I don't know what I'd do. My opinion
on spanking is still the same and has nothing to do with whatever you
wrote initially. I didn't read that post... my response was to what
someone wrote about corporal punishment. I still believe spanking is
abusive and if you don't that's ok, that's what you are comfortable
with. However I notice you spend a lot of time defending it and
being outraged that other people think spanking is abusive. That's
life... People in this world seem to all have differing opinions
about things and just because they don't jive with yours does not
mean they are offensive, rude or whatever you want to call it. In my
opinion, and that's exactly the only opinion I can give, spanking is
abusive. If you and I don't agree that's really ok with me. I don't
need anyone else's approval of my belief system.
>

I can respect your opinion. I believe everyone has a right to express
thier opinion. What I have a problem with is those who have accused
me and deemed me an abuser because of my post. Everyone has a right
to express thier opinion but to pass a judgement on an opinion and
not look at the facts is what seems to have happened here and there
is a huge difference. I feel I have been judged based on one icedent.
Not on the whole scope of how I disipline my children. Corallyn

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/00 11:12:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
hape2day@... writes:

<< I am curious as to some of the things you have learned in your class
with DH. How have you come to terms and found common ground with the
differences you have in your childrenrearing techniques?

Corallyn >>
I am curious tooo.....

Julie

Lynda

Corallyn,

The problem I had was that you stated that you hit your child until your
hand hurt. That presents a picture of going beyond a mere spanking and
certainly far beyond a swat on the fanny. And the only reason that one
could have for pulling down the pants and hitting the bare bottom is to
make the experience more painful. I have no problem with someone getting a
wake-up call such as a swift swat on their sitting down end or even a
couple of swift ones with their clothing on.

The experience of having the pants pulled down is one which creates a
feeling of defenselessness, embarassment and degredation of self-esteem.

Also, I am sure that there are other folks on the list that feel the same
as I do, children do not belong to us, they are simply put into our care
and they are not a sub species, they are simply SMALL people. I would not
expect an adult to have their pants pulled down and get a beating,
therefore I do not do that to a child simply because they are smaller and I
have them in my power.

But what was the real clincher were a few other statements that you made.
Namely that your hubby feels they need a switch taken to them, that now is
the time to begin using a switch (like there is some rule written that says
at a certain age we begin using objects to hit children with) and you
repeated saying that you would probably do it again. It was the sum total
of what you did added to what you said and what you said you would still
do.

Lynda

----------
> From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH
> Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 8:25 AM
>
>
> I can see that it is your opinion that it doesn't matter what the
> situation was. There is absolutely no good reason for spanking your
> child. I can respect that opinion and I don't agree with it. I am not
> going to defend myself any further because it is pointless. I agree
> to disagree, as my mother tells me. And I can accept that. No hard
> feelings. Corallyn : )
>
>
> --- In [email protected], NumoAstro@a... wrote:
> > > A four year old is a child and if the child got away from an
> adult,
> > it is the ADULT's responsibility! Period!
> > >
> >
> > You are absulutely right. It is my responsibility. I am responsible
> > for how I teach my children and at preasant the choices they make
> and how I deal with those choices.
> >
> > I think Lynda was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong
> Lynda)...that you as the adult were responsible for your child
> running away and punishing the child for your lack of responsibility
> doesn't seem to make any sense... There is no judgement in that...
> It's just a fact... If you are the responsible one for a situation
> and something happens in that situations, then I would be apologizing
> to my son for not watching him well enough that he could get away
> from me, not hitting him for something that children do... They don't
> understand at 4 yrs old they could get lost or someone could hurt
> them...They just see things that they like and off they go, which is
> why it's our job as adults to not let that happen. But why should
> your son suffer consequences for your inability to take care of him?
> It's just a thought...and one I only just thought off....It doesn't
> make you a bad parent, just a typical reaction to the thought that
> you are not perfect and chose to take an action that wasn't
> appropriate given the situation. Why is it so difficult to admit a
> mistake. Spanking a child because they ran away when it was the
> responsibility of the adult to make sure they didn't run away doesn't
> make any logical sense to me and it certainly wouldn't make any to a
> child. Just thinking out loud...
> >
> > Dawn
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

Dawn Falbe

> But what was the real clincher were a few other statements that you
made.
> Namely that your hubby feels they need a switch taken to them, that
now is
> the time to begin using a switch (like there is some rule written
that says
> at a certain age we begin using objects to hit children with) and
you
> repeated saying that you would probably do it again. It was the
sum total
> of what you did added to what you said and what you said you would
still
> do.
>
> Lynda

I agree Lynda and feel very glad that I would never put up with that
kind of torture to my children from my husband. To be honest I would
not be married to someone that thought that taking some kind of
object to our children would be the answer to keep them in line. I
guess we all make our choices of husbands for whatever reasons and
then chose to stay with them again for whatever reasons. Not the
choices I would make and not one that I can even respect.... Many
years ago I worked in the legal system with parents who put their
needs above their children and abandoned them and they never could
see how what they were doing was hurting their children. It was like
they had blinders on. Couldn't see from the outside how what they
were doing was harming their children, and they absolutely believed
what they were doing was ok. However, they wouldn't go into a room
full of people they didn't know and announce their behavior as being
something to be proud of.

Just some more thoughts on this lazy Sunday afternoon, which one baby
safely tucked up in bed for a nap and the other out skating with
daddy (and hopefully bringing back dinner)LOL

Dawn

Lynda

When I work in radiology we got all the child abuse cases and I remember
three that were really bad. I could only take it so long and quit because
I was about to go postal and take out a parent or two.

One little girl (4 yo) looked just like Shirley Temple with all the honey
blonde curls and dimples. That is what dimples you could see through the
bruising. She had bruises (with finger prints) up and down her arms and
obviously punch bruises on her ribs. The babysitter brought her in because
she was having trouble breathing. The parents arrived a little while later
screaming that no one had the right to tell them how to care for their
child and that she had, (yeah right) fallen down the stairs.

One little boy (18 months) came in with hypothermia because he had been
thrown through a window and left out all night on the lawn. You see, he
cried too much. Maybe because he had cigarette burns and pins stuck under
his little fingernails. After counseling he was returned to his parents, 3
months later he was dead.

The ultimate in "abuse" was when a father got peeved at his wife and "to
teach her a lesson" picked up their 12 yo daughter from school and took her
to where her mother worked. He honked the horn and then blew up the car!
We got a body bag with pieces in it! The mother is still
institutionalized!

All the psych reports on these folks showed that spanking was the norm for
discipline and that they felt no one had any business telling them how to
treat their children. It is really a scary world out there for small
people!

Lynda

----------
> From: Dawn Falbe <NumoAstro@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH
> Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 3:36 PM
>
> I agree Lynda and feel very glad that I would never put up with that
> kind of torture to my children from my husband. To be honest I would
> not be married to someone that thought that taking some kind of
> object to our children would be the answer to keep them in line. I
> guess we all make our choices of husbands for whatever reasons and
> then chose to stay with them again for whatever reasons. Not the
> choices I would make and not one that I can even respect.... Many
> years ago I worked in the legal system with parents who put their
> needs above their children and abandoned them and they never could
> see how what they were doing was hurting their children. It was like
> they had blinders on. Couldn't see from the outside how what they
> were doing was harming their children, and they absolutely believed
> what they were doing was ok. However, they wouldn't go into a room
> full of people they didn't know and announce their behavior as being
> something to be proud of.
>
> Just some more thoughts on this lazy Sunday afternoon, which one baby
> safely tucked up in bed for a nap and the other out skating with
> daddy (and hopefully bringing back dinner)LOL
>
> Dawn
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2000 1:37:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:

> hitting a child until your
> hand hurts or using objects to hit them with is abuse as defined by the
> codes of every state.

Not so. It varies from state to state. Unless that laws have changed and
I'm not aware of it, in WA state school teachers are allowed to spank as
discipline and they use a paddle to do so. For that matter, if they were to
use a bare hand it would probably be considered assault. A paddle is
standard.

Furthermore, according to my SIL, who is a local city cop, even leaving marks
does not a batterer make...The standard is that the marks are considered
transient if they go away in 72 hours. Therefore, spanking until one's hand
hurts could easily fall within legal range.

Eiraul

Corallyn

--- In [email protected], "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> Corallyn,
>
> The problem I had was that you stated that you hit your child until
your hand hurt. That presents a picture of going beyond a mere
spanking and certainly far beyond a swat on the fanny. And the only
reason that one could have for pulling down the pants and hitting the
bare bottom is to make the experience more painful. I have no
problem with someone getting a wake-up call such as a swift swat on
their sitting down end or even a couple of swift ones with their
clothing on. The experience of having the pants pulled down is one
which creates a feeling of defenselessness, embarassment and
degredation of self-esteem.
>

I can respect that as your opinion. However, I did not end the
situation with the spanking. I did not pull his pants up and leave to
go on with life. I held him again and expressed my love for him and
let him know that there was nothing he could do to make me stop
loving him. NOTHING. I still feel this today. I will always love my
children to this degree. And I didn't just say it in passing. I held
him until was calm and he was ready to leave. And I allowed him to
decide when he was ready to leave. That is when the ordeal was over.
Was it on his mind for some time after that? Probably. I hope it was
something that he pondered for some time. Not just the spanking but
everything that had happened. Everything that was said. What he did
and what my response was to what he did. And my expression of love to
him. Yes. I hope he thought about all of these for a certain period
of time after.


> Also, I am sure that there are other folks on the list that feel
the same as I do, children do not belong to us, they are simply put
into our care and they are not a sub species, they are simply SMALL
people.
>

I agree with you that children are not property. They are gifts that
we have been entrusted with to hold dear to us and to treasure and to
protect from any harm that may/can come to them. Are we, as parents,
at all times cappable of doing that, protecting them at all times
from any type of harm? No. We are not. We are not perfect. There is
no way for any one person to predict what will happen. The best we
can do is to speculate and plan on that. And often times the
speculation doesn't happen and if/when it does, most of the time it
isn't exactly the way we planned on.

>I would not expect an adult to have their pants pulled down and get
a beating, therefore I do not do that to a child simply because they
are smaller and I have them in my power.
>
Actually, I have met some adults whose behavior is such that they
behave worse than the most defiant child. And yes, I have see adults
and heard stories of things that adults did that yes I think some
adults do need a swift kick in the seat of the pants. I also believe
that if more parents were less afraid of CPS there would not be as
much of a discipline problem among the youth and young adults today.
I would rather see a parent discipline thier child with corproal
punishment than do nothing at all. My DH sees this every day. He is a
police officer. And he comes home and tells me of parents who say to
him, "Well, I don't want to hit my child because what if CPS comes to
my house?" Ya know what, the law does not state that you can't hit
your child as a form of punishment. This is dirrectly from the Texas
Penal Code SubchapterF. Special RElationships 9.61. Parent-child.
(a)The use of force, but not deadly force, against a child younger
than 18 years is justified:(1)if the actor is the child's parent or
stepparent or is acting on loco parentis to the child; and (2) when
and to the degree the actor reasonbly believes the force is necessare
to discipline the child or to safeguare or promote his welfare. (b)
For the purposes of this section, "in loco parentis" includes
grandparent and guardian, any person acting by, through, or under the
direction of a court with jusrisdiction over the child, and anyone
who has express or implied consent of the parent or parents. The law
does not state that you can not hit your child. It says reasonable
but not deadly force. There was no risk of death to my child and I
went further than what a lot of people would have by reasuring him of
my love and allowing him to decide when he was ready to leave the
situation. I didn't spank him and then tell him to quit crying and
to "fix his face" as I have seen many parents do. I allowed him to
express his emotions and when he said he was ready, then we left and
not before.

> But what was the real clincher were a few other statements that you
made. Namely that your hubby feels they need a switch taken to them,
that now is the time to begin using a switch (like there is some rule
written that says at a certain age we begin using objects to hit
children with)
>
I never said that I agreed with DH to start using the switch. In fact
I am totally against it. That is the main reason of my inisial
post...How to deal with differences between DH and myself when it
comes to disciplining the children. I have told him that I totally
disagree with this. He knows how I stand. That doesn't mean that he
has to follow and do what I feel is best for the children. He still
has the right to use a switch if he feels the situation warrents it.
I am still at a loss as to how to handle the situation when and if it
ever arise.


>and you repeated saying that you would probably do it again. It was
the sum total of what you did added to what you said and what you
said you would still do.
>
> Lynda

I did not say I would still do this. What I did say was given the
exact same surcumstance and the situation that I was in at the time I
would make the same decission. There are also other cercumstances
that I have not revealed and I am not sure it would make a difference
but here they are. At the time DH had been an officer for about 1.5
years. We were living in a drug and gang infested neighborhood. This
is an area that we were living in prior to DH becoming a police
officer and we were working on getting out. The mall we were at was
the nearest mall to the neighborhood although it was in a much better
town about 10 min up the freeway. However, everyone in my
neighborhood went to this mall. There were a lot of good clean honest
peopl who went to this mall and I also know that there were a lot of
scum who went to this mall because I knew who my next door neighbors
were and what type of business they were running. And most of the
people in the surrounding area were into the same business. These
were the same type of people that my husband had been arresting and
been putting behind bars for 1.5 years. And although he patrolled a
neighborhood that was a good 20-30 miles away he did run into people
from our end of town while on patrol. The people in our neighborhood
knew what he did for a living. They knew he was a police officer. And
even those who didn't know us knew because they look out for each
other. Also, It is hard to hide a police officer leaving for work in
full uniform. Do you know how many of these criminals would love to
get thier hands on the family of an officer simply because the
officer was doing his job. The threat of my son being kidnapped at
the mall that day was real. It was more real to us than to someone
who isn't in law enforcement. And maybe the person would not have
done any of the things I proposed but the threat of the danger he put
himself in was so much worse than the spanking he rescieved. It was
worse than him playing with a knife or near the hot stove. It was his
life as he deserves have it lived being turning into one of illegal
horrors that one should never have to be forced into. That is the
real threat that he faced that day. And it is a real threat. DH has
had drug dealers threaten his life on many occasions because he
caught them and then put them in jail. And a threat on anyone's life
is real, especially that of a police officer. And I still stand
behind my decission that day to spank my child in the manner that I
did. Have I spanked like that since? No. Have I spanked/swatted him
since? Yes. Will I in the future? probably. I can't predict the
future, but yes I probably will. Will I spank him to the degree that
I did that day? I again, I can't predict and speculate every
situation that can and will arise, but it is always an option.


Corallyn

Dawn Falbe

--- In [email protected], braunville@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 9/3/2000 1:37:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> lurine@s... writes:
>
> > hitting a child until your
> > hand hurts or using objects to hit them with is abuse as defined
by the
> > codes of every state.
>
> Not so. It varies from state to state. Unless that laws have
changed and
> I'm not aware of it, in WA state school teachers are allowed to
spank as
> discipline and they use a paddle to do so. For that matter, if
they were to
> use a bare hand it would probably be considered assault. A paddle
is
> standard.
>
> Furthermore, according to my SIL, who is a local city cop, even
leaving marks
> does not a batterer make...The standard is that the marks are
considered
> transient if they go away in 72 hours. Therefore, spanking until
one's hand
> hurts could easily fall within legal range.
>
> Eiraul

I'm sitting here with my jaw on the floor with amazement and thinking
to myself "so that makes it ok"???? As you didn't that I will assume
that paddling is not ok... Glad my kids (a) don't go to school and
(b) don't go to school in Washington.

Dawn F

Sonia Ulan

Lynda wrote:
>
> One little boy (18 months) came in with hypothermia because he had been
> thrown through a window and left out all night on the lawn. You see, he
> cried too much. Maybe because he had cigarette burns and pins stuck under
> his little fingernails. After counseling he was returned to his parents, 3
> months later he was dead.
>

I am positively dumbfounded!!! How can we as a society tolerate these
monsters for even a moment???
The laws have GOT to change!!!


>
>
> All the psych reports on these folks showed that spanking was the norm for
> discipline and that they felt no one had any business telling them how to
> treat their children. It is really a scary world out there for small
> people!
>
> Lynda
>
>

Thanks for the enlightening reminder that alternatives in parenting must
be considered! It is unbelievable to me that this is the sorry case for
so many families.


Sonia
> >
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2000 10:39:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
NumoAstro@... writes:

>
> > > hitting a child until your
> > > hand hurts or using objects to hit them with is abuse as defined
> by the
> > > codes of every state.
> >
> > Not so. It varies from state to state. Unless that laws have
> changed and
> > I'm not aware of it, in WA state school teachers are allowed to
> spank as
> > discipline and they use a paddle to do so. For that matter, if
> they were to
> > use a bare hand it would probably be considered assault. A paddle
> is
> > standard.
> >
> > Furthermore, according to my SIL, who is a local city cop, even
> leaving marks
> > does not a batterer make...The standard is that the marks are
> considered
> > transient if they go away in 72 hours. Therefore, spanking until
> one's hand
> > hurts could easily fall within legal range.
> >
> > Eiraul
>
> I'm sitting here with my jaw on the floor with amazement and thinking
> to myself "so that makes it ok"???? As you didn't that I will assume
> that paddling is not ok... Glad my kids (a) don't go to school and
> (b) don't go to school in Washington.
>
> Dawn F

Read my response a second time...you'll notice I don't actually state an
opinion. What I did was point out that the law does not say a parent can't
use corporal punishment and that it is even, by law, allowed in the school
setting.

I have previously stated that I do not spank my child, but have in the past.
I will now state that I do not consider a spanking to be the benchmark for
abuse.

In addition,, this is one of many of the reasons my children don't go to ps.
I reserve the right to be the one make these decisions and am not willing to
let someone else decide if/when corporal punishment is an appropriate
corrective action for my child.

Eiraul

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2000 10:55:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
NumoAstro@... writes:

> but for the life of me I cannot see any logic in it, it's
> all emotion based and based on how the parent is feeling at the time,
> which is rageful. If it wasn't based on emotion a parent could make
> an appointment with their child at say 5pm to be spanked and everyone
> would be happy... That's never the case so therefore it must be done
> out of rage...

Spanking can be handled by appointment and without rage. In the past, when
we spanked, that was a primary rule. No spanking out of anger. If I was too
angry to be able to tell the child what happened and why he was spanked, it
waited until I calmed down. (yelling did not count as telling the child what
he had done wrong)

I had neighbors whose system included 3 strikes (as in 'you're out') and if
the children got 3 strikes that day, dad gave a spanking when he got home.

I can't do it myself, and it is not right for my family. However, their
family seems to be turning out pretty well adjusted and I do not consider it
my right to tell them how to handle this discipline issue. If the child had
broken bones or showed signs of trauma over the family's discipline plan, I'd
have felt differently and made an appointment with the parents and telling
them of my concerns. Not that it matters, but the mother is a nurse. That
puts her in a disclosure position and also means she has had formal child
abuse prevention/reporting training.

Eiraul

Shirley A Richardson-McCourt

My, my...folks in the mountains are automatically hicks?? Having been born
in the mountains of Kentucky, I think that that was an incredibly biased
remark. Since this is a national/international e-mail list, would it be at
all possible to focus on the ISSUES being discussed and leave
ethnic/regional/racial/religious and any other biases out of it??

Shirley
(native of Harlan County, KY who also happens to be a college graduate,
member of Mensa, longtime member of the Dayton Bach Society and classically
trained mezzo soprano and clarinetist)
----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Falbe <NumoAstro@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 2:54 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH


>
> Have to say it as it's on my mind... But I must assume you and
> Valerie live in the backwaters of Tennessee, or some hick mountain
> top in West Virginia and not in the modern world where people don't
> treat their children as objects to be controlled. Hubby just
> said "and these kind of people unschool?" My husband just said if he
> saw someone spanking a child he'd go over and intervene, whether the
> other parent liked it or not, and he's actually done that once before
> when someone was yanking on their child's arm when they were getting
> them out of a car... I guess it's a personal preference this spanking
> thing... but for the life of me I cannot see any logic in it, it's
> all emotion based and based on how the parent is feeling at the time,
> which is rageful. If it wasn't based on emotion a parent could make
> an appointment with their child at say 5pm to be spanked and everyone
> would be happy... That's never the case so therefore it must be done
> out of rage... How would you like it, if you did something that I
> didn't like and I grabbed you and spanked you? You would be utterly
> humiliated and appalled by my behavior. So what's the difference?
>
> If I could see some logic in this whole spanking issue, then I might
> agree with it... But it doesn't matter what way you say it, how you
> present an argument for it, it's not logical and if it's not logical
> for an adult then it's certainly doesn't make any sense to a child.
>
> Again my HO and now I'll go and put on an even bigger suit of armour
> and try and calm down over this issue, which I actually thought was
> dead until I read this post.
>
> Dawn F
>
> > Valerie, a huge THANK YOU. Someone finally stepped in and agrees
> with
> > me that just because I spank my children does not make me abusive.
> > What Valerie just described as the form of spanking she uses is the
> > same form that I normally use. It is not abuse. A big sigh of
> relief
> > for Valerie's post.
> >
> > Corallyn
> >
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

Corallyn

--- In [email protected], "Dawn Falbe" <NumoAstro@a...>
wrote:

> I'm sitting here with my jaw on the floor with amazement and
thinking to myself "so that makes it ok"???? As you didn't that I
will assume that paddling is not ok... Glad my kids (a) don't go to
school and (b) don't go to school in Washington.
>
> Dawn F

Dawn, you will probably find that the law is pretty close to the same
in every state. You can look it up on line.

As to your question of "so that makes it ok????" That is what every
parent has the right to decide for their family what works best. Can
you imagine if the govn't started dictating what we could and
couldn't do in the privacy of our homes? Which, by the way, I think
they do too much of to begin with, but that is another topic. Corallyn

dawn

> As to your question of "so that makes it ok????" That is what every
> parent has the right to decide for their family what works best. Can
> you imagine if the govn't started dictating what we could and
> couldn't do in the privacy of our homes? Which, by the way, I think
> they do too much of to begin with, but that is another topic. Corallyn

but there are laws that state that it's wrong and illegal to hit spouses,
employees (even those employed in the privacy or our homes), or any other
adult. Why are children, who have no choice but to be in the home they
are being raised in (as opposed to spouses who can leagally leave) be
different? Lots of times the laws are wrong, and in the case of laws
concerning children, they are often wrong. It's easy to overlook the
little ones who can't fight back and can't vote.

dawn h-s

Lynda

The problem with "If the child had broken bones or showed signs of trauma"
being the criteria is that most of the damage done by abuse is
psychological and quite frequently deeply buried and doesn't manifest
itself until much later in life.

Lynda

----------
> From: braunville@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH
> Date: Monday, September 04, 2000 5:56 AM
>
>
> In a message dated 9/3/2000 10:55:43 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> NumoAstro@... writes:
>
> > but for the life of me I cannot see any logic in it, it's
> > all emotion based and based on how the parent is feeling at the time,
> > which is rageful. If it wasn't based on emotion a parent could make
> > an appointment with their child at say 5pm to be spanked and everyone
> > would be happy... That's never the case so therefore it must be done
> > out of rage...
>
> Spanking can be handled by appointment and without rage. In the past,
when
> we spanked, that was a primary rule. No spanking out of anger. If I was
too
> angry to be able to tell the child what happened and why he was spanked,
it
> waited until I calmed down. (yelling did not count as telling the child
what
> he had done wrong)
>
> I had neighbors whose system included 3 strikes (as in 'you're out') and
if
> the children got 3 strikes that day, dad gave a spanking when he got
home.
>
> I can't do it myself, and it is not right for my family. However, their
> family seems to be turning out pretty well adjusted and I do not consider
it
> my right to tell them how to handle this discipline issue. If the child
had
> broken bones or showed signs of trauma over the family's discipline plan,
I'd
> have felt differently and made an appointment with the parents and
telling
> them of my concerns. Not that it matters, but the mother is a nurse.
That
> puts her in a disclosure position and also means she has had formal child

> abuse prevention/reporting training.
>
> Eiraul
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

Lynda

NOT in CA!

Lynda

----------
> From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH
> Date: Monday, September 04, 2000 6:06 AM
>
> --- In [email protected], "Dawn Falbe" <NumoAstro@a...>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm sitting here with my jaw on the floor with amazement and
> thinking to myself "so that makes it ok"???? As you didn't that I
> will assume that paddling is not ok... Glad my kids (a) don't go to
> school and (b) don't go to school in Washington.
> >
> > Dawn F
>
> Dawn, you will probably find that the law is pretty close to the same
> in every state. You can look it up on line.
>
> As to your question of "so that makes it ok????" That is what every
> parent has the right to decide for their family what works best. Can
> you imagine if the govn't started dictating what we could and
> couldn't do in the privacy of our homes? Which, by the way, I think
> they do too much of to begin with, but that is another topic. Corallyn
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

Lynda

Here's a quote that I think about covers the corporal punishment issue
although it was addressed to public schools:

"To me the worst thing seems to be for a school principally to work with
methods of fear, force, and artificial authority. Such treatment destroys
the sound sentiments, the sincerity, and the self-confidence of the pupil.
It produces the submissive subject." - Albert Einstein

Lynda

----------
> From: dawn <dawn@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH
> Date: Monday, September 04, 2000 9:09 AM
>
>
> > As to your question of "so that makes it ok????" That is what every
> > parent has the right to decide for their family what works best. Can
> > you imagine if the govn't started dictating what we could and
> > couldn't do in the privacy of our homes? Which, by the way, I think
> > they do too much of to begin with, but that is another topic. Corallyn
>
> but there are laws that state that it's wrong and illegal to hit spouses,
> employees (even those employed in the privacy or our homes), or any other
> adult. Why are children, who have no choice but to be in the home they
> are being raised in (as opposed to spouses who can leagally leave) be
> different? Lots of times the laws are wrong, and in the case of laws
> concerning children, they are often wrong. It's easy to overlook the
> little ones who can't fight back and can't vote.
>
> dawn h-s
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/4/2000 10:08:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:

>
> The problem with "If the child had broken bones or showed signs of trauma"
> being the criteria is that most of the damage done by abuse is
> psychological and quite frequently deeply buried and doesn't manifest
> itself until much later in life.
>
>

In my previous post "signs of trauma" is not limited to physical symptoms.
It could have included such things as the child being 'too attached' to one
or both parents, or avoiding the parent(s), or cringing when called or
touched, or being afraid of punishment for simple things such as spilling
milk.

Many times there are signs that the child or parent would not recognize, even
if confronted. Quite often the abused child will staunchly defend the
abusive parent. Had I seen/felt anything that told me the children in my
example were having difficulties with their parents' style of discipline, I
would have spoken up. The children are now adults and I still get no sense
of them having been traumatized by the discipline methods of their parents.

It was/is not a style I'm comfortable with and not one I adopted. I have
talked with my oldest child. We did use spankings with him when we could
think of nothing else. When I have talked with him about it, I've made a
point of listening not only with my ears, but with my heart and gut. It has
not caused him ongoing trauma. To decide that spanking will automatically
cause ongoing angst is simply not a given.

Please try to keep in mind that I'm coming from this with a viewpoint of
being a child abuse survivor. Believe it or not, I'm a strong advocate for
the needs of children and do lots of volunteer work with children. I have
lots of personal experience and have done a great deal of study (some formal
and lots informally) in this area. I abhor domestic violence. I have
personally intervened with family members and others helping put a stop to
abusive situations in and out of my extended family. However, I do not think
spanking is automatically battering or a form of child abuse. Many disagree
with me.

The big problem with trying to legislate, mandate or dictate one set of child
abuse symptoms is that we are individuals. What affects one person one way
affects another in an entirely different way. For example, in my opening
paragraph, every symptom listed could indicate a very troubled child. OTOH
every symptom could equally mean a difference in personality or some innocent
need. I think that's where CPS has run into such problems. In order to try
to help the children that truly need help/rescuing a set of guidelines are
established which then lead to a set of rules that are adopted which then
become THE standard without any means to check whether THE standard fits this
child/family.

I'm not picking on you, Lynda. This just happens to be attached to your
post. Your point about psychological scars not showing up for years is very
well taken and I agree. For that reason (and many others), it behooves each
of us as parents/caretakers to do the best job we possibly can with the
children entrusted to us. However, there is no way for me to judge via the
internet whether someone is a good parent. I'm not willing to go there.

IMO the tragedy of this thread is that a mother was looking for support in
reaching her husband because they had a difference of opinion concerning the
discipline methods to be used in their family. As a mother, she felt DH was
headed in a direction which was too harsh to her tender heart and wanted help
finding a way to reach DH and help him understand her position.

In response, she got gut level reactions to her example only...an example she
shared with us to demonstrate the difference in expectations between herself
and DH.

IMO she got very little help with her actual question. She got
(figuratively) shoved up against the wall and cornered emotionally. How did
that help? Now, she has to try and deal with having been called names,
'informed' that she and her husband are both abusive parents, with the
implication that they have no right to these children. From there we got
geographical and parenting slurs hurled, creating lots of defensive people.
Again, this helped how?

IMO We've really missed the boat here, folks. This was a great chance to
share skills, knowledge and information with each other. Instead it turned
into a 'cat fight' <insert apologies to all the cat lovers!> I'm sure in a
day or two things will be more back to normal. I'm equally sure that a few
months down the road some innocent newbie will open this thread again (or
another with similar reactions). I sincerely hope we can be more adult and
diplomatic in our discussions when that opportunity arrives.

Eiraul

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: <braunville@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH

the child being 'too attached' to one
> or both parents

Could you please elaborate on this. My children are very attached to me. My
2 1/2 yo still nurses, my 4 yo and 2 yo still sleep with me, all of them
hate to be away from me. I know I'm not an abuser.

Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey

Tracy Oldfield

How come I always come into these things when everyone's been
worked up already??? All right, I own up, I've been involved in
one or two of these things myself, I know, but recently... hmmm.
Anyway, again, I find myself saying that, from a distance of a
couple of days reading through a lot of posts at once, I didn't see
anyone being disrespectful of anyone. I found people stating their
position on corporal punishment (without being directly judgmental
about anyone who was doing it) I found people expressing their
distaste for a topic that tends towards heated debate (which, I
think (and this is one of those BIG ymmv situations, thanks to this
list for that phrase!!) is a bit 'off' considering this is an unschooling
list, and has been pointed out, if the habits of cats are acceptable
topics, then why not 'my dh and I have different ways of dealing
with things and I'm not comfortable with his ways?') I saw not
very much actual response (some, but not much) to what Corallyn
was asking, which is how to respectfully talk to dh and tell him
how you feel about what's going on and work out acceptable
solutions for both of you. Hmm. Can anyone see any parallels
here between this topic of conversation and all those 'small-
person-discipline' threads? Isn't it reassuring to know that by
parenting positively, encouraging our children to use their minds,
and express themselves safely when they have a problem we
might be 'edjumacating' a future generation of parents who
WON'T have to ask each other how to deal with their spouses???
(ducking and running for that last one, OK!!) I liked all the
'aware-parenting' stuff. I liked the personal history of dealing
with hubby's differences. I think if people find it necessary to use
the delete key, perhaps they don't need to tell everyone else who's
enjoying the subject. JMO, etc etc...

with Love and Light
Tracy

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/4/00 6:57:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
braunville@... writes:

<< IMO she got very little help with her actual question. She got
(figuratively) shoved up against the wall and cornered emotionally. How did
that help? Now, she has to try and deal with having been called names,
'informed' that she and her husband are both abusive parents, with the
implication that they have no right to these children. From there we got
geographical and parenting slurs hurled, creating lots of defensive people.
Again, this helped how? >>
I agree!

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/4/2000 4:04:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
aworthen@... writes:

>
> the child being 'too attached' to one
> > or both parents
>
> Could you please elaborate on this. My children are very attached to me. My
> 2 1/2 yo still nurses, my 4 yo and 2 yo still sleep with me, all of them
> hate to be away from me. I know I'm not an abuser.
>

<smiles!> Gladly. I would say your's is a great example of why one can't
use this 'symptom' as a sure sign of child abuse.

Some abused children cling very tightly to the abusive parent. It seems to
be a means of staying 'in touch' so the child can avoid offending the abusive
parent. A means of trying to be love-able enough to the parent that the
parent won't hurt them.

Very sad when it is a symptom of child abuse. Made even sadder, IMO, because
it is also a sign of a great parent/child relationship. The point being that
if you can't see the action in context of the family relationship, there is
no way to know if it is 'normal' or not. There have been cases where
teachers or other 'officials' have used the parental attachment as 'proof'
that there was abuse or other inappropriate relationship between parent child.

Don't let it scare you off from continuing to nurse your child or have them
sleep with you! Some kids/families need more nurturing than others. I think
it's a good thing. Keep up the good work.

(Oops! there I go judging a parent via the internet. <bg>)

Did that help any? Was that what you were asking?

Eiraul

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: <braunville@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 04, 2000 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Differences with DH

Did that help any? Was that what you were asking?

Yes ans yes.
Thanks,
Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey

Corallyn

Dawn, I dont' understand your reasoning. It can go both ways. If you
think that children should be dealt with in the same manner that we
deal with adults then that limits a parents choices of discipline to
nothing more than reasoning. If you want to hold them to the same
standard as adults then are you going to call the police when your
children take something from another family member without asking? Or
when they hit eachother/fight? If this is the case why homeschool?
You will be allowing the govn't to raise your children anyway and you
may as well save yourself the time and send them to ps. Corallyn


> but there are laws that state that it's wrong and illegal to hit
spouses, employees (even those employed in the privacy or our homes),
or any other adult. Why are children, who have no choice but to be
in the home they are being raised in (as opposed to spouses who can
leagally leave) be different? Lots of times the laws are wrong, and
in the case of laws concerning children, they are often wrong. It's
easy to overlook the little ones who can't fight back and can't vote.
>
> dawn h-s

Corallyn

--- In [email protected], "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> NOT in CA!
>
> Lynda


Actually, here is the cut and paste from the CA site that has the
penal code. CA does allow it. Here is the addy as well. Be sure to
read all of it. What isn't clarified in 11165.3 is clarified in
11165.4.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=11001-
12000&file=11164-11174.3



11165.3. As used in this article, "willful cruelty or unjustifiable
punishment of a child" means a situation where any person willfully
causes or permits any child to suffer, or inflicts thereon,
unjustifiable physical pain or mental suffering, or having the care
or custody of any child, willfully causes or permits the person or
health of the child to be placed in a situation such that his or her
person or health is endangered.



11165.4. As used in this article, "unlawful corporal punishment or
injury" means a situation where any person willfully inflicts upon
any child any cruel or inhuman corporal punishment or injury
resulting in a traumatic condition. It does not include an amount of
force that is reasonable and necessary for a person employed by or
engaged in a public school to quell a disturbance threatening
physical injury to person or damage to property, for purposes of
self-defense, or to obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous
objects within the control of the pupil, as authorized by Section
49001 of the Education Code. It also does not include the exercise
of the degree of physical control authorized by Section 44807 of the
Education Code. It also does not include an injury caused by
reasonable and necessary force used by a peace officer acting within
the course and scope of his or her employment as a peace officer.