Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
Lynda
Please tell me we aren't going to go there again! I know, I know, it's
been about 6 months but couldn't we just not do this again???
Lynda, who is off to burn an effigy of Ezzo as she speaks!
----------
been about 6 months but couldn't we just not do this again???
Lynda, who is off to burn an effigy of Ezzo as she speaks!
----------
> From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> Date: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:46 PM
>
> Okay so DH and I have very different veiws on how to handle certain
> situations with the children. He thinks that we need to use more
> corporal punishment in the form of a switch, that the hand isn't
> enough. Not that I use my hand often, but I do believe there is a
> time and a place for it and it is always a last resort. The last time
> and only time that I seriously used my hand on either of the children
> was when DS ran off in the mall and I couldn't find him. He was
> almost 4 at the time. Anyway, to make a long story short, I had
> security looking for him for 15-20 min. When they found him I bawled
> like a baby, held him in my arms then took him to the bathroom and
> spanked his bare bum till my hand hurt, not out of anger but out of
> love. I wanted him to understand how serious it is that he not run
> off like that. Then I explained to him how scared I was and how much
> I loved him and sat there in the stall just holding him close for a
> while. Needless to say he has never run off in any store again.
>
> As far as DH and I go I have always believed more in the lines of
> Love and Logic and DH believes more along the lines of coersion and
> force much like the ps uses. So my question is does anyone have any
> suggestions as to how to handle situations that arrise when DH is
> dealing with the children in a manner that I totally disagree with
> and the children aren't used to, simply because they are use to the
> way I handle things since I am the one who is home all day and night
> and DH works all day and all night? Corallyn
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
Sonia Ulan
Hi Corallyn;
I know it won't go over well to discuss this but as with all parenting
issues we need to educate, sensitize and address even the most difficult
topics. We owe it to ourselves as parents and have the moral OBLIGATION
to constantly scrutinize ourselves and our choices to ensure we are
always offering our children the VERY BEST we can give. To not discuss
these very personal topics amongst other parents from whom we may learn,
is to deny the most basic resource we have for education...each other!
Regardless where one stands on the spanking issue, I think few would
argue that corporal punishment with actual "weapons" (ie. belts,
switches, rods etc.) is excessive. That IS abuse. Ask any doctor,
lawyer, social worker, or parenting expert. Some extremist religious
groups defend the use of "weapons" based on misinterpretation of
scripture. My husband is a clergyman (and a "traditional" one at that!)
and this question comes up regularly. We also have concerns over a
"bare bottom" spanking as it can confuse a child sexually and especially
for an older child is further humiliation that can go beyond repair.
This is by far NOT what God intended for his greatest gifts - children!
And for those non-religious types who exert control by means of corporal
punishment, it happens either simply from lack of knowledge or because
"it was done to them when they were a kid". The real issue here is not
that of disciplining a child so much as it is about an adult raging and
needing some anger management assistance. Sure kids defy authority, and
sure parents get darned frustrated, and there's no argument that
parenting is the toughest job out there, but excessively attacking
children only creates resentment and breaks down families. The day
inevitably comes when the bomb explodes and the so-called discipline
backfires in the parent's face, one way or another. It happens every
day.
I'm not meaning to insult or judge your situation Corallyn, and my heart
goes out to you if you are in a situation of conflict to resolve this
with your husband and family. The answers won't be easy...they never
are for the really tough and worthwhile questions. I know it's easier
said than done but would your husband entertain talking to someone about
this? He can get some answers to his parenting questions through
community parenting groups, a health clinic, the library, or other
parents etc.
Above all else, since you are as you said, "the primary care giver to
your children", show your babies unconditional love. Hug and kiss each
of them every day so they have a sense of security and stability. That
will be your greatest disciplinary tool. Try not to have unrealistic
expectations of yourself or your children. They ARE children after all
because they do make mistakes when they are learning and growing and not
every mistake needs necessarily to be disciplined.
I hope I haven't offended you. I support and respect you or any other
parent who is willing to learn and self-improve. I know this is an
issue some people don't want to touch on this list but I wanted to
repond to your question.
This is the one great thing I like more than just about anything else on
this list. I LOVE having the resource of so many other parents to learn
from and to receive support from.
Good luck!
Sonia in Saskatoon
(mom to 3)
Corallyn wrote:
I know it won't go over well to discuss this but as with all parenting
issues we need to educate, sensitize and address even the most difficult
topics. We owe it to ourselves as parents and have the moral OBLIGATION
to constantly scrutinize ourselves and our choices to ensure we are
always offering our children the VERY BEST we can give. To not discuss
these very personal topics amongst other parents from whom we may learn,
is to deny the most basic resource we have for education...each other!
Regardless where one stands on the spanking issue, I think few would
argue that corporal punishment with actual "weapons" (ie. belts,
switches, rods etc.) is excessive. That IS abuse. Ask any doctor,
lawyer, social worker, or parenting expert. Some extremist religious
groups defend the use of "weapons" based on misinterpretation of
scripture. My husband is a clergyman (and a "traditional" one at that!)
and this question comes up regularly. We also have concerns over a
"bare bottom" spanking as it can confuse a child sexually and especially
for an older child is further humiliation that can go beyond repair.
This is by far NOT what God intended for his greatest gifts - children!
And for those non-religious types who exert control by means of corporal
punishment, it happens either simply from lack of knowledge or because
"it was done to them when they were a kid". The real issue here is not
that of disciplining a child so much as it is about an adult raging and
needing some anger management assistance. Sure kids defy authority, and
sure parents get darned frustrated, and there's no argument that
parenting is the toughest job out there, but excessively attacking
children only creates resentment and breaks down families. The day
inevitably comes when the bomb explodes and the so-called discipline
backfires in the parent's face, one way or another. It happens every
day.
I'm not meaning to insult or judge your situation Corallyn, and my heart
goes out to you if you are in a situation of conflict to resolve this
with your husband and family. The answers won't be easy...they never
are for the really tough and worthwhile questions. I know it's easier
said than done but would your husband entertain talking to someone about
this? He can get some answers to his parenting questions through
community parenting groups, a health clinic, the library, or other
parents etc.
Above all else, since you are as you said, "the primary care giver to
your children", show your babies unconditional love. Hug and kiss each
of them every day so they have a sense of security and stability. That
will be your greatest disciplinary tool. Try not to have unrealistic
expectations of yourself or your children. They ARE children after all
because they do make mistakes when they are learning and growing and not
every mistake needs necessarily to be disciplined.
I hope I haven't offended you. I support and respect you or any other
parent who is willing to learn and self-improve. I know this is an
issue some people don't want to touch on this list but I wanted to
repond to your question.
This is the one great thing I like more than just about anything else on
this list. I LOVE having the resource of so many other parents to learn
from and to receive support from.
Good luck!
Sonia in Saskatoon
(mom to 3)
Corallyn wrote:
>
>
> Okay so DH and I have very different veiws on how to handle certain
> situations with the children. He thinks that we need to use more
> corporal punishment in the form of a switch, that the hand isn't
> enough. Not that I use my hand often, but I do believe there is a
> time and a place for it and it is always a last resort. The last time
> and only time that I seriously used my hand on either of the children
> was when DS ran off in the mall and I couldn't find him. He was
> almost 4 at the time. Anyway, to make a long story short, I had
> security looking for him for 15-20 min. When they found him I bawled
> like a baby, held him in my arms then took him to the bathroom and
> spanked his bare bum till my hand hurt, not out of anger but out of
> love. I wanted him to understand how serious it is that he not run
> off like that. Then I explained to him how scared I was and how much
> I loved him and sat there in the stall just holding him close for a
> while. Needless to say he has never run off in any store again.
>
> As far as DH and I go I have always believed more in the lines of
> Love and Logic and DH believes more along the lines of coersion and
> force much like the ps uses. So my question is does anyone have any
> suggestions as to how to handle situations that arrise when DH is
> dealing with the children in a manner that I totally disagree with
> and the children aren't used to, simply because they are use to the
> way I handle things since I am the one who is home all day and night
> and DH works all day and all night? Corallyn
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Sonia Ulan
Hi Lynda;
I can understand your hesitancy to repetitively review the same
parenting issues over and over again but aren't we all here to learn?
And can we not learn from each other? As a reminder to the
long-established members of this list, let us not forget that this list
is constantly changing and new members are joining all the time. It is
in our best interest to repeat some discussions not only for the new
members who haven't been involved in previous discussion but also to the
old stand-bys. As time goes on don't we all grow and change? Maybe
since the last discussion someone has a fresh viewpoint based on some
new report/book/experience one has been exposed to. I know how awkward
and controversial some of these discussions can be, but this list has
such potential as a parenting tool. Could we tolerate the opportunities
as they arise?
Thanks very much to everyone! With much appreciation,
Sonia
Lynda wrote:
I can understand your hesitancy to repetitively review the same
parenting issues over and over again but aren't we all here to learn?
And can we not learn from each other? As a reminder to the
long-established members of this list, let us not forget that this list
is constantly changing and new members are joining all the time. It is
in our best interest to repeat some discussions not only for the new
members who haven't been involved in previous discussion but also to the
old stand-bys. As time goes on don't we all grow and change? Maybe
since the last discussion someone has a fresh viewpoint based on some
new report/book/experience one has been exposed to. I know how awkward
and controversial some of these discussions can be, but this list has
such potential as a parenting tool. Could we tolerate the opportunities
as they arise?
Thanks very much to everyone! With much appreciation,
Sonia
Lynda wrote:
>
>
> Please tell me we aren't going to go there again! I know, I know, it's
> been about 6 months but couldn't we just not do this again???
>
> Lynda, who is off to burn an effigy of Ezzo as she speaks!
>
> ----------
> > From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> > Date: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:46 PM
> >
> > Okay so DH and I have very different veiws on how to handle certain
> > situations with the children. He thinks that we need to use more
> > corporal punishment in the form of a switch, that the hand isn't
> > enough. Not that I use my hand often, but I do believe there is a
> > time and a place for it and it is always a last resort. The last time
> > and only time that I seriously used my hand on either of the children
> > was when DS ran off in the mall and I couldn't find him. He was
> > almost 4 at the time. Anyway, to make a long story short, I had
> > security looking for him for 15-20 min. When they found him I bawled
> > like a baby, held him in my arms then took him to the bathroom and
> > spanked his bare bum till my hand hurt, not out of anger but out of
> > love. I wanted him to understand how serious it is that he not run
> > off like that. Then I explained to him how scared I was and how much
> > I loved him and sat there in the stall just holding him close for a
> > while. Needless to say he has never run off in any store again.
> >
> > As far as DH and I go I have always believed more in the lines of
> > Love and Logic and DH believes more along the lines of coersion and
> > force much like the ps uses. So my question is does anyone have any
> > suggestions as to how to handle situations that arrise when DH is
> > dealing with the children in a manner that I totally disagree with
> > and the children aren't used to, simply because they are use to the
> > way I handle things since I am the one who is home all day and night
> > and DH works all day and all night? Corallyn
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Shirley A Richardson-McCourt
Thank you Sonia! As a brand new list member, I had no idea what Lynda was
referring to, but figured that it must predate me! As a longer time member
of 2 other lists, this "not again" issue arises from time to time. I'll say
here as I said there, "If uninterested in a particular topic, use your
delete key, folks. That's why these little epistles have subject
lines--consider them a warning!!"
Shirley (the proud owner of the fastest delete key finger in the Midwest!!)
referring to, but figured that it must predate me! As a longer time member
of 2 other lists, this "not again" issue arises from time to time. I'll say
here as I said there, "If uninterested in a particular topic, use your
delete key, folks. That's why these little epistles have subject
lines--consider them a warning!!"
Shirley (the proud owner of the fastest delete key finger in the Midwest!!)
----- Original Message -----
From: Sonia Ulan <sulan@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
>
>
>
> Hi Lynda;
>
> I can understand your hesitancy to repetitively review the same
> parenting issues over and over again but aren't we all here to learn?
> And can we not learn from each other? As a reminder to the
> long-established members of this list, let us not forget that this list
> is constantly changing and new members are joining all the time. It is
> in our best interest to repeat some discussions not only for the new
> members who haven't been involved in previous discussion but also to the
> old stand-bys. As time goes on don't we all grow and change? Maybe
> since the last discussion someone has a fresh viewpoint based on some
> new report/book/experience one has been exposed to. I know how awkward
> and controversial some of these discussions can be, but this list has
> such potential as a parenting tool. Could we tolerate the opportunities
> as they arise?
>
> Thanks very much to everyone! With much appreciation,
>
> Sonia
>
>
> Lynda wrote:
> >
> >
> > Please tell me we aren't going to go there again! I know, I know, it's
> > been about 6 months but couldn't we just not do this again???
> >
> > Lynda, who is off to burn an effigy of Ezzo as she speaks!
> >
> > ----------
> > > From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> > > Date: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:46 PM
> > >
> > > Okay so DH and I have very different veiws on how to handle certain
> > > situations with the children. He thinks that we need to use more
> > > corporal punishment in the form of a switch, that the hand isn't
> > > enough. Not that I use my hand often, but I do believe there is a
> > > time and a place for it and it is always a last resort. The last time
> > > and only time that I seriously used my hand on either of the children
> > > was when DS ran off in the mall and I couldn't find him. He was
> > > almost 4 at the time. Anyway, to make a long story short, I had
> > > security looking for him for 15-20 min. When they found him I bawled
> > > like a baby, held him in my arms then took him to the bathroom and
> > > spanked his bare bum till my hand hurt, not out of anger but out of
> > > love. I wanted him to understand how serious it is that he not run
> > > off like that. Then I explained to him how scared I was and how much
> > > I loved him and sat there in the stall just holding him close for a
> > > while. Needless to say he has never run off in any store again.
> > >
> > > As far as DH and I go I have always believed more in the lines of
> > > Love and Logic and DH believes more along the lines of coersion and
> > > force much like the ps uses. So my question is does anyone have any
> > > suggestions as to how to handle situations that arrise when DH is
> > > dealing with the children in a manner that I totally disagree with
> > > and the children aren't used to, simply because they are use to the
> > > way I handle things since I am the one who is home all day and night
> > > and DH works all day and all night? Corallyn
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > Addresses:
> > > Post message: [email protected]
> > > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > > List owner: [email protected]
> > > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
aworthen
----- Original Message -----
From: Shirley A Richardson-McCourt <thediva@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
"If uninterested in a particular topic, use your
> delete key, folks. That's why these little epistles have subject
> lines--consider them a warning!!"
Except that the subject line doesn't always change as the conversation
progresses. Take for instance the "It takes a village" subject. That
particular subject has progressed from a very serious subject about raising
children to a funny chat about bumper stickers. If I had chosen to delete
everything with that subject line I may have missed something that I would
have found funny or enlightening or uplifting or.....
Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/2/2000 10:20:45 AM, sulan@... writes:
<<Regardless where one stands on the spanking issue, I think few would
argue that corporal punishment with actual "weapons" (ie. belts,
switches, rods etc.) is excessive. That IS abuse. Ask any doctor,
lawyer, social worker, or parenting expert. >>
Oh, good. I'm glad someone said it.
Thank you,
Betsy
<<Regardless where one stands on the spanking issue, I think few would
argue that corporal punishment with actual "weapons" (ie. belts,
switches, rods etc.) is excessive. That IS abuse. Ask any doctor,
lawyer, social worker, or parenting expert. >>
Oh, good. I'm glad someone said it.
Thank you,
Betsy
[email protected]
I had a children's service worker tell me you can use an open hand and don't
leave a mark on the bottm of the kid. My ex called after I spanked my son
for taking a knife outside and strip bark off of a poor tree. I was in the
bathroom when he came in the house and got the butter knife. Well that was
the last time he also did that or anything else with a knife.
leave a mark on the bottm of the kid. My ex called after I spanked my son
for taking a knife outside and strip bark off of a poor tree. I was in the
bathroom when he came in the house and got the butter knife. Well that was
the last time he also did that or anything else with a knife.
Lynda
Well, like a few others, I don't think that corporal punishment is an
unschooling issue, it is a parenting issue and a very volitile one! Also,
each and ever discussion of corporal punishment on all but one
home/unschooling list I belong to has gone down hill into at the least, the
next thing to a flame war. AND, that includes this list! So, as a
courtesy to all of us who are, quite frankly, tired of the topic raising
its head every 6 months or so, please keep the same subject line so we can
delete and get on with the business of unschooling.
Lynda
----------
unschooling issue, it is a parenting issue and a very volitile one! Also,
each and ever discussion of corporal punishment on all but one
home/unschooling list I belong to has gone down hill into at the least, the
next thing to a flame war. AND, that includes this list! So, as a
courtesy to all of us who are, quite frankly, tired of the topic raising
its head every 6 months or so, please keep the same subject line so we can
delete and get on with the business of unschooling.
Lynda
----------
> From: Sonia Ulan <sulan@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> Date: Saturday, September 02, 2000 2:24 AM
>
>
> Hi Lynda;
>
> I can understand your hesitancy to repetitively review the same
> parenting issues over and over again but aren't we all here to learn?
> And can we not learn from each other? As a reminder to the
> long-established members of this list, let us not forget that this list
> is constantly changing and new members are joining all the time. It is
> in our best interest to repeat some discussions not only for the new
> members who haven't been involved in previous discussion but also to the
> old stand-bys. As time goes on don't we all grow and change? Maybe
> since the last discussion someone has a fresh viewpoint based on some
> new report/book/experience one has been exposed to. I know how awkward
> and controversial some of these discussions can be, but this list has
> such potential as a parenting tool. Could we tolerate the opportunities
> as they arise?
>
> Thanks very much to everyone! With much appreciation,
>
> Sonia
>
>
> Lynda wrote:
> >
> >
> > Please tell me we aren't going to go there again! I know, I know, it's
> > been about 6 months but couldn't we just not do this again???
> >
> > Lynda, who is off to burn an effigy of Ezzo as she speaks!
> >
> > ----------
> > > From: Corallyn <hape2day@...>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> > > Date: Friday, September 01, 2000 10:46 PM
> > >
> > > Okay so DH and I have very different veiws on how to handle certain
> > > situations with the children. He thinks that we need to use more
> > > corporal punishment in the form of a switch, that the hand isn't
> > > enough. Not that I use my hand often, but I do believe there is a
> > > time and a place for it and it is always a last resort. The last time
> > > and only time that I seriously used my hand on either of the children
> > > was when DS ran off in the mall and I couldn't find him. He was
> > > almost 4 at the time. Anyway, to make a long story short, I had
> > > security looking for him for 15-20 min. When they found him I bawled
> > > like a baby, held him in my arms then took him to the bathroom and
> > > spanked his bare bum till my hand hurt, not out of anger but out of
> > > love. I wanted him to understand how serious it is that he not run
> > > off like that. Then I explained to him how scared I was and how much
> > > I loved him and sat there in the stall just holding him close for a
> > > while. Needless to say he has never run off in any store again.
> > >
> > > As far as DH and I go I have always believed more in the lines of
> > > Love and Logic and DH believes more along the lines of coersion and
> > > force much like the ps uses. So my question is does anyone have any
> > > suggestions as to how to handle situations that arrise when DH is
> > > dealing with the children in a manner that I totally disagree with
> > > and the children aren't used to, simply because they are use to the
> > > way I handle things since I am the one who is home all day and night
> > > and DH works all day and all night? Corallyn
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > Addresses:
> > > Post message: [email protected]
> > > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > > List owner: [email protected]
> > > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/1/2000 10:47:22 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
hape2day@... writes:
established relationship. One grown son, daughter-in-law, 2 yr old grand
daughter and a 12 yr old son. I list the 'credentials' to let you know that
this is a life journey and I've come a long way, learning new things as I go.
First off, my personal opinion...I don't spank. I did with my oldest. In
fact, your description of what happened in the mall is very typical of what I
would have done with my oldest son. I learned that it made me feel too icky
and so I have worked very hard to find alternative methods.
A note of explanation here, I was raised in a very abusive family, so any
form of corporal punishment, yelling or signs of anger really hurt me. Many
people think I over react to these situations...my DH is one of them. While
I'm not saying you're abusive, my parents used similar approaches; beating us
and then telling us a) it was our fault and b) they only did it because they
'loved' us and c) it was their responsibility to see that learned to avoid
sin so I would not go to hell.
Again, I am NOT accusing you of abuse. I just want to preface my methods by
sharing my experiences so you can see that this comes from the bottom of my
heart.
Because I felt so awful and out of control any time we spanked, we decided
that spanking was not an appropriate form of punishment or discipline in our
family. Even before we made that decision, we were careful to never be out
of control. If we felt there was any anger or danger of abuse we sent ds to
his room until we could calm down enough to deal with it. I still felt
awful.
With ds #2 (10 yrs later), we had tried so hard to bring this child into our
lives and had such heartache in the process (miscarriage, tubal pregnancy and
many months of failed fertility treatment) that the idea of striking him in
any way was repulsive. Interestingly enough, the process of getting ds #2
here, also softened our hearts considerably in our dealings with ds #1. The
most that ds #2 has received was the very occasional swat. Then it was when
I could not get words out fast enough to stop dangerous behavior. i.e. he
was about to grab a sharp knife. On those occasions we have really had to
laugh because his reaction was to stand up straight, grab his buns and look
at us with a look that said 'what did you do that for?!' There was obviously
no real pain involved.
Now, on to solutions...DH does not feel as strongly about this as I do. He
does not see spanking as abusive or coercive. I'm the one that is around the
kids all the time. DH is often out of town for weeks or months, so there
have been times that I am, essentially, a single parent. When DH would come
home, he would automatically assume things would fit his expectations without
it even occurring to him that I might be doing things another way or that
changing the routine the rest of the family had established would be
disruptive.
So, I sat down with DH and explained that in his absence, this was how I did
things. That I certainly did not want him to feel like he was a visitor in
his own home, but it would help us a lot if he could let us know what he
expected, we could establish some rules we could all live with and each of us
would need to use extra patience in learning/remembering what it was we were
doing.
I then went on to explain how awful it made me feel when there is any yelling
or spanking going on. Explaining that it dredged up my childhood and caused
me to relive that pain every time it happened in our home. That it took away
from my happiness when we had this contention. I had to explain this on more
than one occasion. Since he loves me and there are other ways to discipline,
he has learned to find alternatives or use the ones I already have in place.
On the rare occasion that DH strongly feels that more needs to be done and
the child has gotten off too easy (which hardly happens, it's not like I just
let them run over me!), DH and I excuse the child and explain that mommy and
daddy need to discuss this. Go wait at the kitchen table/in your room/where
ever until we are ready to talk to you. Then we hash out what is needed and
go from there.
I feel it is important for there to be a united front. That does NOT mean
that dad has to discipline using the exact same form of consequence that mom
uses. It does mean that DH and I have set limits for our family which we are
each comfortable with. When DH says the consequence for 'X' is "Y", I back
him up and he does the same for me. If a child thinks it is too harsh, they
have to work it out with the parent that is handling that episode. This
keeps them from playing us against each other.
(A funny note: We have a family rule concerning our activities on Sunday.
We do not shop or engage in heavy labor, with rare exceptions. It is our day
of worship. Last week DH simply HAD to work on the car. DS #2 came out and
asked DH why he was working on the car. DH gave his answer and went on
working. Then DS #2 came inside and asked me why dad was working on the car.
I gave him an answer. DS's response: That's just what Dad said! I really
had to laugh...that'll learn him to even consider pitting us against each
other. LOL)
I know this is long. I've given background in order to help you know if this
is a solution that will work for your family. It has been an ongoing process
for our family. DH sometimes still gets forceful with DS or (more often)
with the pets. It doesn't take more than a cleared throat or my speaking
DH's name and he checks himself to see if he is out of control. Knowing that
DH pauses to consider his actions helps reassure me and also helps DH decide
whether he is behaving appropriately.
FWIW,
Eiraul
hape2day@... writes:
> As far as DH and I go I have always believed more in the lines ofI've been with the same man for 25+ years, married for 23. We have an
> Love and Logic and DH believes more along the lines of coersion and
> force much like the ps uses. So my question is does anyone have any
> suggestions as to how to handle situations that arrise when DH is
> dealing with the children in a manner that I totally disagree with
> and the children aren't used to, simply because they are use to the
> way I handle things since I am the one who is home all day and night
> and DH works all day and all night? Corallyn
>
established relationship. One grown son, daughter-in-law, 2 yr old grand
daughter and a 12 yr old son. I list the 'credentials' to let you know that
this is a life journey and I've come a long way, learning new things as I go.
First off, my personal opinion...I don't spank. I did with my oldest. In
fact, your description of what happened in the mall is very typical of what I
would have done with my oldest son. I learned that it made me feel too icky
and so I have worked very hard to find alternative methods.
A note of explanation here, I was raised in a very abusive family, so any
form of corporal punishment, yelling or signs of anger really hurt me. Many
people think I over react to these situations...my DH is one of them. While
I'm not saying you're abusive, my parents used similar approaches; beating us
and then telling us a) it was our fault and b) they only did it because they
'loved' us and c) it was their responsibility to see that learned to avoid
sin so I would not go to hell.
Again, I am NOT accusing you of abuse. I just want to preface my methods by
sharing my experiences so you can see that this comes from the bottom of my
heart.
Because I felt so awful and out of control any time we spanked, we decided
that spanking was not an appropriate form of punishment or discipline in our
family. Even before we made that decision, we were careful to never be out
of control. If we felt there was any anger or danger of abuse we sent ds to
his room until we could calm down enough to deal with it. I still felt
awful.
With ds #2 (10 yrs later), we had tried so hard to bring this child into our
lives and had such heartache in the process (miscarriage, tubal pregnancy and
many months of failed fertility treatment) that the idea of striking him in
any way was repulsive. Interestingly enough, the process of getting ds #2
here, also softened our hearts considerably in our dealings with ds #1. The
most that ds #2 has received was the very occasional swat. Then it was when
I could not get words out fast enough to stop dangerous behavior. i.e. he
was about to grab a sharp knife. On those occasions we have really had to
laugh because his reaction was to stand up straight, grab his buns and look
at us with a look that said 'what did you do that for?!' There was obviously
no real pain involved.
Now, on to solutions...DH does not feel as strongly about this as I do. He
does not see spanking as abusive or coercive. I'm the one that is around the
kids all the time. DH is often out of town for weeks or months, so there
have been times that I am, essentially, a single parent. When DH would come
home, he would automatically assume things would fit his expectations without
it even occurring to him that I might be doing things another way or that
changing the routine the rest of the family had established would be
disruptive.
So, I sat down with DH and explained that in his absence, this was how I did
things. That I certainly did not want him to feel like he was a visitor in
his own home, but it would help us a lot if he could let us know what he
expected, we could establish some rules we could all live with and each of us
would need to use extra patience in learning/remembering what it was we were
doing.
I then went on to explain how awful it made me feel when there is any yelling
or spanking going on. Explaining that it dredged up my childhood and caused
me to relive that pain every time it happened in our home. That it took away
from my happiness when we had this contention. I had to explain this on more
than one occasion. Since he loves me and there are other ways to discipline,
he has learned to find alternatives or use the ones I already have in place.
On the rare occasion that DH strongly feels that more needs to be done and
the child has gotten off too easy (which hardly happens, it's not like I just
let them run over me!), DH and I excuse the child and explain that mommy and
daddy need to discuss this. Go wait at the kitchen table/in your room/where
ever until we are ready to talk to you. Then we hash out what is needed and
go from there.
I feel it is important for there to be a united front. That does NOT mean
that dad has to discipline using the exact same form of consequence that mom
uses. It does mean that DH and I have set limits for our family which we are
each comfortable with. When DH says the consequence for 'X' is "Y", I back
him up and he does the same for me. If a child thinks it is too harsh, they
have to work it out with the parent that is handling that episode. This
keeps them from playing us against each other.
(A funny note: We have a family rule concerning our activities on Sunday.
We do not shop or engage in heavy labor, with rare exceptions. It is our day
of worship. Last week DH simply HAD to work on the car. DS #2 came out and
asked DH why he was working on the car. DH gave his answer and went on
working. Then DS #2 came inside and asked me why dad was working on the car.
I gave him an answer. DS's response: That's just what Dad said! I really
had to laugh...that'll learn him to even consider pitting us against each
other. LOL)
I know this is long. I've given background in order to help you know if this
is a solution that will work for your family. It has been an ongoing process
for our family. DH sometimes still gets forceful with DS or (more often)
with the pets. It doesn't take more than a cleared throat or my speaking
DH's name and he checks himself to see if he is out of control. Knowing that
DH pauses to consider his actions helps reassure me and also helps DH decide
whether he is behaving appropriately.
FWIW,
Eiraul
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/2/2000 5:45:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
aworthen@... writes:
I'm not interested, I skip several and check in again to see if the subject
has gone to a place I'm interested in. If it has and I've missed something,
I can back track to get what I missed. If not, simply delete all that
subject.
Works for me,
Eiraul
aworthen@... writes:
>I read (or glance at, depending...) the first few posts (3 maybe), then if
> "If uninterested in a particular topic, use your
> > delete key, folks. That's why these little epistles have subject
> > lines--consider them a warning!!"
>
> Except that the subject line doesn't always change as the conversation
> progresses. Take for instance the "It takes a village" subject. That
> particular subject has progressed from a very serious subject about raising
> children to a funny chat about bumper stickers. If I had chosen to delete
> everything with that subject line I may have missed something that I would
> have found funny or enlightening or uplifting or.....
>
I'm not interested, I skip several and check in again to see if the subject
has gone to a place I'm interested in. If it has and I've missed something,
I can back track to get what I missed. If not, simply delete all that
subject.
Works for me,
Eiraul
Pris
me, too ... I'm on several lists and that's what I do, too, otherwise I'd be
sitting @ the computer all day long and never get anything else accomplished
... I just glance/delete if it's not of interest; ie potty training, we past
that stage yrs ago <G>
Pris
WARNING: I cannot be help responsible for the above, as apparently my cats
have learned how to type ...
sitting @ the computer all day long and never get anything else accomplished
... I just glance/delete if it's not of interest; ie potty training, we past
that stage yrs ago <G>
Pris
WARNING: I cannot be help responsible for the above, as apparently my cats
have learned how to type ...
> I read (or glance at, depending...) the first few posts (3 maybe), then ifsubject
> I'm not interested, I skip several and check in again to see if the
> has gone to a place I'm interested in. If it has and I've missedsomething,
> I can back track to get what I missed. If not, simply delete all that
> subject.
>
> Works for me,
> Eiraul
Corallyn
I am going to reply to all the posts in responce to my initial email.
To those of you who had genuine support of my delima of differences
of oppinions between DH and myself I thank you. Your input was
helpful.
To those of you who offered suggestions as to how to propperly
dissapline my children you totally missed the topic of my post. That
may have been partially my fault as I strayed from the topic somewhat
with the sp...situation.
To those of you who had the nerve and audacity to accuse me and my
husband of being abusive toward our children because I spanked DS two
years ago I am highly offended and resent that you would accuse
someone you have never met in person of such a crime. You have no
right to pass such a judgement on me simply because you don't know me
well enough to pass that a judgement. I view that oppion of me as
closed minded and irrational.
And to those of you who had nothing but complaints about my choice of
topics, how rude. I had a problem that I really wasn't sure how to
handle and thought that this list would be a "safe" place to get an
honest oppinion from a diversified group. Apparently I was wrong.
For the latter three groups I have learned an important lesson here.
Although this appeared to be an open group it apparently is not. I
have found much support here the past few weeks that I have been on
the list and will most likely continue to lurk, however, I doubt I
will be so quick to post especially on something that is a touchy
topic for myself and somewhat difficult to discuss to begin with.
With all this said I do respect each person's right to their
oppinion. That doesn't mean I do/have to agree/like that opinion.
Corallyn
To those of you who had genuine support of my delima of differences
of oppinions between DH and myself I thank you. Your input was
helpful.
To those of you who offered suggestions as to how to propperly
dissapline my children you totally missed the topic of my post. That
may have been partially my fault as I strayed from the topic somewhat
with the sp...situation.
To those of you who had the nerve and audacity to accuse me and my
husband of being abusive toward our children because I spanked DS two
years ago I am highly offended and resent that you would accuse
someone you have never met in person of such a crime. You have no
right to pass such a judgement on me simply because you don't know me
well enough to pass that a judgement. I view that oppion of me as
closed minded and irrational.
And to those of you who had nothing but complaints about my choice of
topics, how rude. I had a problem that I really wasn't sure how to
handle and thought that this list would be a "safe" place to get an
honest oppinion from a diversified group. Apparently I was wrong.
For the latter three groups I have learned an important lesson here.
Although this appeared to be an open group it apparently is not. I
have found much support here the past few weeks that I have been on
the list and will most likely continue to lurk, however, I doubt I
will be so quick to post especially on something that is a touchy
topic for myself and somewhat difficult to discuss to begin with.
With all this said I do respect each person's right to their
oppinion. That doesn't mean I do/have to agree/like that opinion.
Corallyn
Lynda
Yes, that's it. Also, anyone who has ever raised children knows that
although we can try to teach children responsibility for their actions, the
degree of responsibility is directly tied to the age and maturity of a
child. A child at that age has the responsibility attention span of a gnat
(not a bad thing <g>), the curiosity of a cat and the urge to flutter
around like a butterfly from one magnet to another.
One of the true joys of unschooling is being able to let that imagination
run free to all those natural (and quite frequently messy <g>) conclusions.
Attempts to stifle that with unrealistic expectations that don't match the
age of the child coupled with the given outside stimulus usually results in
failure.
Lynda
----------
although we can try to teach children responsibility for their actions, the
degree of responsibility is directly tied to the age and maturity of a
child. A child at that age has the responsibility attention span of a gnat
(not a bad thing <g>), the curiosity of a cat and the urge to flutter
around like a butterfly from one magnet to another.
One of the true joys of unschooling is being able to let that imagination
run free to all those natural (and quite frequently messy <g>) conclusions.
Attempts to stifle that with unrealistic expectations that don't match the
age of the child coupled with the given outside stimulus usually results in
failure.
Lynda
----------
> From: NumoAstro@...you
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Differences with DH
> Date: Sunday, September 03, 2000 7:18 AM
> > A four year old is a child and if the child got away from an adult,
> it is the ADULT's responsibility! Period!
> >
>
> You are absulutely right. It is my responsibility. I am responsible
> for how I teach my children and at preasant the choices they make and
> how I deal with those choices.
>
> I think Lynda was trying to say (correct me if I'm wrong Lynda)... that
> as the adult were responsible for your child running away and punishingthe
> child for your lack of responsibility doesn't seem to make any sense...There
> is no judgement in that... It's just a fact... If you are the responsibleone
> for a situation and something happens in that situations, then I would beaway
> apologizing to my son for not watching him well enough that he could get
> from me, not hitting him for something that children do... They don'tour
> understand at 4 yrs old they could get lost or someone could hurt them...
> They just see things that they like and off they go, which is why it's
> job as adults to not let that happen. But why should your son sufferthought...
> consequences for your inability to take care of him? It's just a
> and one I only just thought off....that
>
> It doesn't make you a bad parent, just a typical reaction to the thought
> you are not perfect and chose to take an action that wasn't appropriategiven
> the situation. Why is it so difficult to admit a mistake. Spanking achild
> because they ran away when it was the responsibility of the adult to make
> sure they didn't run away doesn't make any logical sense to me and it
> certainly wouldn't make any to a child.
>
> Just thinking out loud...
>
> Dawn
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
Vicki A. Dennis
>Sorry to break the news to you but there are still places where "schools"
> In a message dated 9/2/2000 10:20:45 AM, sulan@... writes:
>
> <<Regardless where one stands on the spanking issue, I think few would
> argue that corporal punishment with actual "weapons" (ie. belts,
> switches, rods etc.) is excessive. That IS abuse. Ask any doctor,
> lawyer, social worker, or parenting expert. >>
whether public or private are still allowed to use various weapons against
children for 'discipline". Some are permitted to do this even without
parental consent. And no, it is not found to be "abuse". So lawyers,
social workers, or others (I REFUSE to label principals or teachers as
parenting experts) might give surprising answers in those locales.
Vicki----won't try to horrify you with descriptions of weapons considered
appropriate or how one my have unexcused absences "burned off".
Shirley A Richardson-McCourt
Cindy said:
I undersyand your point, but part of the value (for me, at least) of a
public forum is to air controversial issues. And usually such issues are
controversial because there are no cut and dried answers.
Although the conversation may have gotten a tad intense at times (!), a lot
of interesting information was shared. It's difficult to say if anyone's
mind was changed or parenting stance was affected by new information because
in the heat of a discussion your focus is on defending your position. But it
may well be that each side at least received some food for thought, or
perhaps a better understanding of those who think differently on this issue
than they do. Without a followup a few months or years down the road, we may
never know what the true effects of the discussion were.
But if we are only going to discuss those issues about which we all agree,
we've done to this board what we're trying to prevent public education from
doing to our children--stifled all independent thought.
I say, keep those controversial issues coming, but keep your delete key
handy in case of philosophical emergency!!
Shirley
> In all my years on the Internet (since 1987 to be precise) I have *never*Shirley says:
> seen a productive discussion on the topic of spanking. ...
> This is why Lynda and others were hesitant to continue this discussion.
>
I undersyand your point, but part of the value (for me, at least) of a
public forum is to air controversial issues. And usually such issues are
controversial because there are no cut and dried answers.
Although the conversation may have gotten a tad intense at times (!), a lot
of interesting information was shared. It's difficult to say if anyone's
mind was changed or parenting stance was affected by new information because
in the heat of a discussion your focus is on defending your position. But it
may well be that each side at least received some food for thought, or
perhaps a better understanding of those who think differently on this issue
than they do. Without a followup a few months or years down the road, we may
never know what the true effects of the discussion were.
But if we are only going to discuss those issues about which we all agree,
we've done to this board what we're trying to prevent public education from
doing to our children--stifled all independent thought.
I say, keep those controversial issues coming, but keep your delete key
handy in case of philosophical emergency!!
Shirley
M & J Welch
Hello everybody! I'm jumping in! ;-) This is kind of long-sorry.
techniques.<<
I think it may be a little more than this. There is the fear that others may
decide to interfere with that family's life or traditions to the point where
their children are actually separated from them. There is also the anger
that the government sees fit to discriminate against parents for their
disciplinary choices (definition of abuse aside for now).
Case in point: not long after I had my second son the police were called to
my home by a neighbor. My kids are LOUD. As babies, they competed with
train whistles-and I am NOT exaggerating. I had my 4 year old, whom I was
preparing to send to preschool (this was pre-homeschooling days) and my 5
month old, a filthy house, a husband on his way to school that morning, and
my son's preschool teachers due in 20 minutes. I put on some loud music
because that had the tendency to soothing the baby, and it worked for 5
minutes, just enough time for me to get into the shower. The baby began to
scream. Now, I was rushed that morning, so I couldn't have been in the
shower more than 10 minutes tops. When I got out of the shower, I was
entangled in trying to dress my preschooler, clean the house, and soothe a
crying baby (who had reached the point of no return, which is pretty common
for my kids if I don't get in some early intervention)-all the while loud
music is blaring while the baby I'm carrying around is shrieking in my ear.
It was an insane morning. But glory of glories, I managed to pull it off,
clean the house enough to look healthy, dress my son so he looked
presentable, and put something on other than a towel. The baby, however,
would not be soothed. He cried for about 45 minutes straight. He was in a
proper tit, as we call it around here.
When the teachers arrived, we looked like a hallmark card-except for the
crying baby, but then a knock comes on the front door. Lo and behold-it's
the police! The neighbor had called 911 to report abuse!!
I was deeply offended and frightened too! One frantic morning, and I could
possibly have my children taken away from me? Have CPS come to investigate
me? At the very least-which is what happened-have a police officer come and
frighten the hoo ha out of me?!
After the police and the teachers left, I took my baby over to that
neighbor's house-since I drilled the cop and figured out who reported me-and
basically placed my healthy, happy but very LOUD 5 month old in their face
and said "SEE! He's healthy!! No bruises!" But the damage is done. Now, I
have a permanent police report filed against me of suspected abuse.
Ever since then I've been afraid that someone may misinterpret how my
children act as behavior exhibited by abused kids. What I have read on this
list is *not* reassuring. From my point of view, we have to be very very
careful whom we accuse of child abuse. Imo, spanking alone is not an
indicator of child abuse, and to report someone solely on evidence of
spanking, or yelling at a child, or a loud crying baby that will not be
soothed is to put that family at serious risk. Also, I suspect that having a
CPS worker come in and investigate a family for alleged abuse based on a
single spanking, yelling or crying episode would cause great damage to the
children's sense of trust and stability. Think of it-a child sees a
stranger come into the home assessing his parents and later finds out that
this stranger could come and take him away from his parents and his home.
*That* must be very reassuring.
So I guess I would ask of list members who feel that any kind of spanking is
abuse-when do you call the police or report the child to CPS?
I would also like to give a tip for those of you who are *positive* you are
witnessing abuse. Don't bother calling CPS-it takes lots and lots of calls
to get a response from them that will benefit an abused child. Instead,
call the police. This way, a police record is being created (like the one
*I* have) providing hard evidence of possible or proven abuse. I know this
because we have neighbors who abuse their children regularly by neglect and
alcoholism. I've had the unfortunate experience of having to call the police
to their home. As our neighbor is good friends with several police officers,
I have assurances this is the best way to handle it. This is not something
I relish doing, but it *is* something I will do when I am certain abuse is
taking place.
Take care everybody, and play nice! :-)
Lee
(LOL! My 7 year old is taking a shower with his brother and they are playing
with rubber gloves. He just ran up to me stark naked with a rubber glove
filled with water and holding it by his groin while lowing "MOOOO MOOOO
MOOOO!!!")
>> Others get angry at the thought of a childbeing hurt or at the thought of someone judging their parenting
techniques.<<
I think it may be a little more than this. There is the fear that others may
decide to interfere with that family's life or traditions to the point where
their children are actually separated from them. There is also the anger
that the government sees fit to discriminate against parents for their
disciplinary choices (definition of abuse aside for now).
Case in point: not long after I had my second son the police were called to
my home by a neighbor. My kids are LOUD. As babies, they competed with
train whistles-and I am NOT exaggerating. I had my 4 year old, whom I was
preparing to send to preschool (this was pre-homeschooling days) and my 5
month old, a filthy house, a husband on his way to school that morning, and
my son's preschool teachers due in 20 minutes. I put on some loud music
because that had the tendency to soothing the baby, and it worked for 5
minutes, just enough time for me to get into the shower. The baby began to
scream. Now, I was rushed that morning, so I couldn't have been in the
shower more than 10 minutes tops. When I got out of the shower, I was
entangled in trying to dress my preschooler, clean the house, and soothe a
crying baby (who had reached the point of no return, which is pretty common
for my kids if I don't get in some early intervention)-all the while loud
music is blaring while the baby I'm carrying around is shrieking in my ear.
It was an insane morning. But glory of glories, I managed to pull it off,
clean the house enough to look healthy, dress my son so he looked
presentable, and put something on other than a towel. The baby, however,
would not be soothed. He cried for about 45 minutes straight. He was in a
proper tit, as we call it around here.
When the teachers arrived, we looked like a hallmark card-except for the
crying baby, but then a knock comes on the front door. Lo and behold-it's
the police! The neighbor had called 911 to report abuse!!
I was deeply offended and frightened too! One frantic morning, and I could
possibly have my children taken away from me? Have CPS come to investigate
me? At the very least-which is what happened-have a police officer come and
frighten the hoo ha out of me?!
After the police and the teachers left, I took my baby over to that
neighbor's house-since I drilled the cop and figured out who reported me-and
basically placed my healthy, happy but very LOUD 5 month old in their face
and said "SEE! He's healthy!! No bruises!" But the damage is done. Now, I
have a permanent police report filed against me of suspected abuse.
Ever since then I've been afraid that someone may misinterpret how my
children act as behavior exhibited by abused kids. What I have read on this
list is *not* reassuring. From my point of view, we have to be very very
careful whom we accuse of child abuse. Imo, spanking alone is not an
indicator of child abuse, and to report someone solely on evidence of
spanking, or yelling at a child, or a loud crying baby that will not be
soothed is to put that family at serious risk. Also, I suspect that having a
CPS worker come in and investigate a family for alleged abuse based on a
single spanking, yelling or crying episode would cause great damage to the
children's sense of trust and stability. Think of it-a child sees a
stranger come into the home assessing his parents and later finds out that
this stranger could come and take him away from his parents and his home.
*That* must be very reassuring.
So I guess I would ask of list members who feel that any kind of spanking is
abuse-when do you call the police or report the child to CPS?
I would also like to give a tip for those of you who are *positive* you are
witnessing abuse. Don't bother calling CPS-it takes lots and lots of calls
to get a response from them that will benefit an abused child. Instead,
call the police. This way, a police record is being created (like the one
*I* have) providing hard evidence of possible or proven abuse. I know this
because we have neighbors who abuse their children regularly by neglect and
alcoholism. I've had the unfortunate experience of having to call the police
to their home. As our neighbor is good friends with several police officers,
I have assurances this is the best way to handle it. This is not something
I relish doing, but it *is* something I will do when I am certain abuse is
taking place.
Take care everybody, and play nice! :-)
Lee
(LOL! My 7 year old is taking a shower with his brother and they are playing
with rubber gloves. He just ran up to me stark naked with a rubber glove
filled with water and holding it by his groin while lowing "MOOOO MOOOO
MOOOO!!!")
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/5/2000 5:21:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
thediva@... writes:
BGs
Eiraul
thediva@... writes:
>LOL!! Gotta love it! ...philosophical emergency. heheheh
> I say, keep those controversial issues coming, but keep your delete key
> handy in case of philosophical emergency!!
>
>
BGs
Eiraul
Cathie _
Cindy, you hit it right on the head. I got into a big debate on another hot
topic on my very first list, 2 years ago. I unsubbed from it because I felt
like there was no way I could deal with the people on it, and then was
hesitant to really get into any big discussions on other lists afterward. It
stinks to feel rejected on a list that is supposed to be suportive.
In a way, I think it has helped me to become a better writer-I try hard now
to really express myself more clearly since you don't have any personal or
visual clues, and I try to be more diplomatic, and I keep my mouth shut and
my fingers still when I just want to spout off in anger.
I joined this list in the middle of the last brouhaha on spanking, and
managed to stick around until it was over, I hope the other new members will
do the same-we really are about unschooling, and it will get nicer here when
this dies down.
Cathie
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com
topic on my very first list, 2 years ago. I unsubbed from it because I felt
like there was no way I could deal with the people on it, and then was
hesitant to really get into any big discussions on other lists afterward. It
stinks to feel rejected on a list that is supposed to be suportive.
In a way, I think it has helped me to become a better writer-I try hard now
to really express myself more clearly since you don't have any personal or
visual clues, and I try to be more diplomatic, and I keep my mouth shut and
my fingers still when I just want to spout off in anger.
I joined this list in the middle of the last brouhaha on spanking, and
managed to stick around until it was over, I hope the other new members will
do the same-we really are about unschooling, and it will get nicer here when
this dies down.
Cathie
>In all my years on the Internet (since 1987 to be precise) I have *never*_________________________________________________________________________
>seen a productive discussion on the topic of spanking. Never once has
>someone who is against spanking decided that it was okay for *anyone*
>to spank their child. I haven't seen anyone who is for spanking decide
>that perhaps their method of discipline needed changing. Instead what
>I have seen is what happened here, the original poster felt misunderstood,
>and usually gets defensive. Others get angry at the thought of a child
>being hurt or at the thought of someone judging their parenting techniques.
>Emotions run high on both sides of the issue. When it all dies down,
>people are hurt, their feelings of trust in each other has been eroded.
>Some people leave the list in hurt and/or anger. Others decide it is
>best if they become lurkers. The end result is the wisdom that each of
>us can gain from this list is diminished.
>
>This is why Lynda and others were hesitant to continue this discussion.
>
>--
>
>Cindy Ferguson
>crma@...
>
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com