starshine ***

I have a question for everyone. What about censorship in reading and TV
watching? I remember reading in books by the guy who started Sudbury Valley
school (based on unschooling) that he believes there should be NO censorship
of reading materials, that kids of any age should be free to read whatever
they want. And that if kids wanted to watch TV all day for how ever long,
they should be allowed to...

Sounded okay to me...We live in the country and have terrible TV reception
and rarely turn on the TV and up until now, my ds have been happily reading
the classics and other books on the Oak Meadow reading list.

Now that my one d is 13 and the other is almost 11, things are suddenly
changing. They have both discovered the condensed version of the Reader's
Digest and have been reading them avidly for some time. This has led to an
interest in adult mysteries for my 10 yo. Also, we just got a satelite dish
and suddenly we are receiving 45 channels with all kinds of stuff that I
can't even believe is on there. I want them to be free and I know they are
very curious about the world (especially the almost 11 yo)...but this
walking around the shadow is very uncomfortable for me and part of me just
wants to say NO to Tv altogether!!! At this point, we are only watching
shows that are rated for children and only about an hour or 2 in the evening
at most...But I am concerned about when the girls are left alone...I think
if I had no restrictions, my younger daughter might be glued to all kinds of
stuff all day long.

Please respond!!! Mixed up between freedom and censorship!!!
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Susan (mother to 5 in Fla)

I've been there except I tried to let my kids pick & now they're tv junkies.
Even the ds 4 can recite ads. I'm now restricting the amount & content.
There's just too much out there they're not ready to handle & I want them to
have a full childhood. I'm trying to convince DH to limit tv in the
evening. Today was my first day, I just let them turn it on for Dragon
Tales. They hadn't even missed it. DH uses it to unwind even if "there's
nothing worth watching".

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/1/2000 8:03:32 PM, samiot@... writes:

<<DH uses it to unwind even if "there's nothing worth watching".>>

My husband is the same. Maybe I should work with him to help him learn other
relaxation techniques?

Betsy

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: starshine *** <starshine_lal@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2000 3:49 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] censorship

I don't put many restrctions on what my kids watch. I'm amazed at how often
they intuitivly know what they'll be ok with and not (ie: what might give
them bad dreams, etc) 90% of the time they only watch PBS or The Disney
Channel anyway. My suggestion, if you're worried, would be to see if there's
a way to put some kind of parental control on your system. We have it on our
cable so that anything rated TVY14, for example, can not be watched unless
you enter a code. It might be worth looking into.
Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/1/2000 12:50:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
starshine_lal@... writes:

> Please respond!!! Mixed up between freedom and censorship!!!

I consider it my parental responsibility to censor what comes into my home,
as such many things are simply not allowed in the front door. Period. No
exceptions. Want exceptions...grow up, provide for yourself and move into
your own place.

The children are free to choose any reading materials we own or borrow. If
it is here, they are welcome to read it. In fact, we often take turns
reading the same book.

As for TV, movies or music, I have veto power. I am offended by many things
that are presented in the media and I pay the rent, cable and power bills, so
I get to choose.

I believe that whatever is happening here sets the tone and we all react to
it so I'm arbitrary about it, too; especially if I don't like it at a gut
level, it goes off. I will make an attempt to explain my position if there
is genuine interest in knowing why. If 'why' is simply an attempt to argue,
I'm not interested.

As to the AMOUNT of TV, videos, music, etc., I'm pretty flexible. Generally
speaking all are free to watch how much they would like. However, we are
expected to share; we are not a household that has a TV per person.
Sometimes that means parents watch kids' shows, other times kids watch
parents' shows. It is very rare that I would have something on that I would
not feel comfortable having my children watch with me. The most glaring
exception I can think of is a show that might be personally disturbing, say
about child abuse or kidnapping. This could happen with a documentary or
something where I really feel the information is useful, but don't want to
traumatize a child, for instance. In that case, if I think it may be too
graphic or disturbing to the child(ren), they don't get to watch. (I am
willing to tape and watch it later, rather than have anyone feel neglected)

Another exception is the sound level. I hate fight scenes, clattery sounds
and other noisy show sounds. It literally gives me jitters. In that case,
if we can't find an acceptable sound level, the show can't be watched.
(you'd be amazed at what great hearing my kids suddenly develop when it's
something they really want to watch! LOL)

OTOH, nobody better even attempt to come over and tell me what we should or
should not be watching. Nor would I ever feel it appropriate to control what
another family watches on the TV in their living room.

My 2 cents worth,
Eiraul

Shirley A Richardson-McCourt

I have always monitored my children's viewing and reading. I guess I regard
information as food for the mind. I don't see the wisdom of allowing my kids
to intellectually consume whatever crosses their path when I would never
allow them to physically consume food that was unhealthy or to have solids
before they were developed enough to process them. Having said that,
although I do control some subject matter, I don't control the reading
level. So my 11 yo daughter is now consuming college level books about
oceans and fish tanks, etc. And my daughter is just beginning to read some
books that were not allowed a few years before. When she has questions she
comes to me and we talk about them. When restrictions were lifted a bit, she
read several previously unallowed books. And then she went back to the
fishes!!

As for TV, when they were younger, my kids' television was more restricted.
They are now 9 and 11. Tuesdays and Thursdays are still "no TV till after 6
PM" days. They usually watch TLC, Nick, Cartoon Network and TV Land. No
interest in VH-1 or MTV. Yet. Thank God. Even on MWF, there are often days
when the TV doesn't go on. There are just more interesting things to do!!

Shirley

Shirley A Richardson-McCourt

> In a message dated 9/1/2000 8:03:32 PM, samiot@... writes:
>
> <<DH uses it to unwind even if "there's nothing worth watching".>>
>
> My husband is the same. Maybe I should work with him to help him learn
other
> relaxation techniques?
>
> Betsy

That depends. How many kids were you planning on?? LOL! (Guys have REALLY
limited ways to "relax" sometimes!! <G>)

Shirley
>
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>

M & J Welch

What my mom did with me, and what I intend/have begun to do with my kids is
this: when I was younger, primary school age, my television viewing was
restricted to educational and rated G programs (pretty much all pbs since
there was no cable back then-oh, and Bill Kennedy at the movies, and the
Saturday creature feature.) *and* my mom and dad sat down and watched it
with us. Remember, pbs isn't all rated g material-lots of animals dying,
and masterpiece theatre dealt with adult subject matter-the key was
presentation. Minimal ad time, and no foul language.
Without all the bang up violence and language, most adult content programs
on pbs are pretty boring to primary aged kids. But on a subconscious level,
I realized that good programming doesn't have to involve unrealistic action
sequences, overrated sexual innuendoes, or lots of foul language. Eventually
I began to listen, and as I learned to listen, I began to understand what
was going on in those "boring" adult dialogues on pbs.

At the point I began to understand what was going on behind the dialogue,
around the age 12, my mom-smart lady that she is-made note of it and told me
something I'll never forget. She said that I was becoming an adult, and in
doing so I needed to be very careful what I put in my head by watching
television or reading books. She said that once that information is in
there, it can never come out-it's stuck for good. She told me there have
been books and t.v. programs that she's read or seen that she wished she
wouldn't have, since the images in them ended up disturbing her. In
essence, after my primary years of restricted t.v.-not amount of time, but
content only-when I began to exhibit an understanding of what I was watching
and reading, she gave me book and television autonomy.

In my teens I made a few mistakes, and watched or read things that upset me.
I realized *my mother was right!*, and made more careful choices, but they
were independent choices-not coerced by parental authority. But I
understood, the way my mother intended, that the mind is not a sieve, but a
sponge.

I only hope that I am able to be as sensitive and wise a mother as my mom
(of seven rambunctious loudmouthed kids!) was and is.

My 2 cents! :-)

Lee

[email protected]

As of today, we're also starting a NO-TV experiment that we plan on running
through the rest of the year. I became concerned when my 8 year old son
stopped playing on the computer in favor of Cartoon Network. He just loves
cartoons. Although I didn't see anything really bad (I know that's a value
judgment) in the cartoons he watched, I wasn't all that comfortable either.
And, TV just seemed to have taken over. The kids wanted to watch just one
more show before we'd go over to a friend's house or on a field trip. They'd
want to cut outings short in order to get home for one of their numerous
favorite shows. They'd get upset if anything were turned off in the middle.
Their behavior in general left a lot to be desired. But mostly, I was
concerned that they were becoming couch potatoes.

We're not turning the TV off entirely. It is available for videos and
Nintendo. But we've also been working on a list for the last week of things
we can do instead of watching TV. And in fact, since we started talking
about our experiment a week ago, the TV has actually not been on that much at
all.

The only thing I'm concerned about is how my almost 4 year old is going to
occupy herself and whether I'll have the energy to supervise her all day
long. (Yes, I admit, I did at times use the TV as a babysitter.)

Carron


In a message dated 9/1/2000 3:03:29 PM Central Daylight Time,
samiot@... writes:

> I've been there except I tried to let my kids pick & now they're tv junkies.
> Even the ds 4 can recite ads. I'm now restricting the amount & content.
> There's just too much out there they're not ready to handle & I want them
to
> have a full childhood. I'm trying to convince DH to limit tv in the
> evening. Today was my first day, I just let them turn it on for Dragon
> Tales. They hadn't even missed it. DH uses it to unwind even if "there's
> nothing worth watching".

Laura M

Lee,
That was so well put. My parents were the same way with me. When we make
something "off limits" without an appropriat explaination we tend to make
that something very desirable. I see this with books, tv, movies and candy.
It is so much better for our children to make and informed choice. Yes,
we all make mistakes at times, but as you said, you learned from them.
Laura


>From: "M & J Welch" <seamus@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] censorship
>Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 13:20:01 -0400
>
>What my mom did with me, and what I intend/have begun to do with my kids is
>this: when I was younger, primary school age, my television viewing was
>restricted to educational and rated G programs (pretty much all pbs since
>there was no cable back then-oh, and Bill Kennedy at the movies, and the
>Saturday creature feature.) *and* my mom and dad sat down and watched it
>with us. Remember, pbs isn't all rated g material-lots of animals dying,
>and masterpiece theatre dealt with adult subject matter-the key was
>presentation. Minimal ad time, and no foul language.
>Without all the bang up violence and language, most adult content programs
>on pbs are pretty boring to primary aged kids. But on a subconscious level,
>I realized that good programming doesn't have to involve unrealistic action
>sequences, overrated sexual innuendoes, or lots of foul language.
>Eventually
>I began to listen, and as I learned to listen, I began to understand what
>was going on in those "boring" adult dialogues on pbs.
>
>At the point I began to understand what was going on behind the dialogue,
>around the age 12, my mom-smart lady that she is-made note of it and told
>me
>something I'll never forget. She said that I was becoming an adult, and in
>doing so I needed to be very careful what I put in my head by watching
>television or reading books. She said that once that information is in
>there, it can never come out-it's stuck for good. She told me there have
>been books and t.v. programs that she's read or seen that she wished she
>wouldn't have, since the images in them ended up disturbing her. In
>essence, after my primary years of restricted t.v.-not amount of time, but
>content only-when I began to exhibit an understanding of what I was
>watching
>and reading, she gave me book and television autonomy.
>
>In my teens I made a few mistakes, and watched or read things that upset
>me.
>I realized *my mother was right!*, and made more careful choices, but they
>were independent choices-not coerced by parental authority. But I
>understood, the way my mother intended, that the mind is not a sieve, but a
>sponge.
>
>I only hope that I am able to be as sensitive and wise a mother as my mom
>(of seven rambunctious loudmouthed kids!) was and is.
>
>My 2 cents! :-)
>
>Lee
>
>
>
>

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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/2/2000 11:00:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Cararmst@... writes:

> The kids wanted to watch just one
> more show before we'd go over to a friend's house or on a field trip.
They'
> d
> want to cut outings short in order to get home for one of their numerous
> favorite shows. They'd get upset if anything were turned off in the
middle.
>

I applaud your guts in conducting a 'no tv' experiement. Let us know how it
goes.

When I think we are living our lives around tv shows, the VCR gets used. DS
doesn't want to go someplace because a show is coming on...we record it. 9
times out of 10 we never get around to watching whatever it was that was so
important we wanted to miss out on life. If it is important enough to watch,
it takes LOTS less time because we fast forward through all the commercials!
I really like that part. There are lots of times I don't mind the show that
is currently on but hate the commercial for an upcoming show or the latest
toy.

BTW, the VCR plan works as well for parents as it does for children.

FWIW,
Eiraul

Dawn Falbe

> BTW, the VCR plan works as well for parents as it does for children.
>
> FWIW,
> Eiraul

We do the same thing here, although Zak doesn't seem to want to stay
in to watch anything. He watches PBS and Disney and most of those
things I tape. He wanted to see Franklin the other day and it's on
Nick. I don't let him watch Nick because it has commercials on it
and I'm not comfortable with him being exposed to all those yet. So
I taped Franklin and he didn't have to suffer the commercials.

Steve and I also tape everything we watch. I can't remember the last
time I saw a commercial. It seems like such a waste of time to spend
1 hour when I could spend 40 mins instead. Plus I can watch
something in bits and pieces. I mainly watch BBC America anyway and
watch one soap on there and also some of the English documentaries
and dramas (if and when I have time)... television is playing a
smaller and smaller role in our lives.

Dawn F
Tucson, AZ

M & J Welch

Thanks Laura! It took me awhile, namely not until I had my first child, but
I very much appreciate (meaning to be thankful *and* recognize) what my
mother had to do to raise myself and my brothers and sisters. I love her
lots.

Anyway, this leads me to something that happened lastnight. While watching
National Geographic Explorer with my 7 year old son, a clip about how
scorpions reproduce led to a conversation between ds and me about sexual
reproduction in humans. Wow! Was I not ready for that!-but having that
program on discussing the exact same thing was a great help. I was able to
related the two very easily and in a way ds could understand, without giving
him too much info-or too little.

So I did my first sex talk! Whoopee! (and I mean that in the context of
hurray, not as in "makin'" ;-) *And* with the gentle courtship dance of
emperor scorpions going on in the background. I nearly cracked my composure
when the narrator said "If the male scorpion displeases her, she'll kill
him" !!! LOL! Lucky for human men, women don't have this option!

Lee

-----Original Message-----
From: Laura M [mailto:lauramatec@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2000 2:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] censorship


Lee,
That was so well put. My parents were the same way with me. When we make
something "off limits" without an appropriat explaination we tend to make
that something very desirable. I see this with books, tv, movies and candy.
It is so much better for our children to make and informed choice. Yes,
we all make mistakes at times, but as you said, you learned from them.
Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/03/2000 12:51:41 PM !!!First Boot!!!, seamus@...
writes:

<< "If the male scorpion displeases her, she'll kill
him" !!! LOL! Lucky for human men, women don't have this option!

Lee
>>


Darn!! I thought we were on to something here!! :)

Nance

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/03/2000 12:51:41 PM !!!First Boot!!!, seamus@...
writes:

<<
Anyway, this leads me to something that happened lastnight. While watching
National Geographic Explorer with my 7 year old son, a clip about how
scorpions reproduce led to a conversation between ds and me about sexual
reproduction in humans. Wow! Was I not ready for that!-but having that
program on discussing the exact same thing was a great help. I was able to
rel >>


Reminds me of last night (No -- not that -- get your minds out of the
gutter!).

There we are, hubby and I watching a grownup movie. Kids are in their rooms.
Of course, just when the violent part of the movie starts, in waltzes the 5
yo.

So I, being the fantastic mom that I am, switch the station off of the movie
to the cooking channel.

Where they are hurling chunks of raw meat to the tiger in the zoo!!!! And
going on and on about how they feed X pounds of horse and other meat to the
tiger every day, etc.

Auugghhhhh!

At least it was real violence and not people shooting at each other in a
movie, but it was more nature channel that I was ready for at that moment! :)

Nance

M & J Welch

>>There we are, hubby and I watching a grownup movie. Kids are in their
rooms.
Of course, just when the violent part of the movie starts, in waltzes the 5
yo.

So I, being the fantastic mom that I am, switch the station off of the movie
to the cooking channel.

Where they are hurling chunks of raw meat to the tiger in the zoo!!!! And
going on and on about how they feed X pounds of horse and other meat to the
tiger every day, etc.

Auugghhhhh!

At least it was real violence and not people shooting at each other in a
movie, but it was more nature channel that I was ready for at that moment!
:)

Nance<<

LOL! Mmm Mmm! Raw meat! Hungry kitty! Lol! :-)

We keep our t.v. in our bedroom and usually, if there's a show that is too
adult for our kids on, I tell then point blank-"Seamus, this show is too
grown up for you to watch. Please leave the room, I'll be there in a
minute." I say that if there's a particularly good part on, or if it's
boring I'll say "Let's leave the room so we can talk". I prefer to do it
this way because it helps me reinforce that there's programs on t.v. that ds
is not ready for, and sometimes it can lead to discussion about what is
appropriate t.v. and what is not. Ds will say "Why can't I watch it?" and
I'll answer saying "Well, they use bad language" or "There's too much
pretend violence" or something to that effect. And normally I end it with
"When you get older you can decide for yourself if you want to watch it."
He may not understand completely, but he likes to have a reason and feel in
control.

Although, if there's nekkid folks on the screen (not very often, but
still..) CLICK! Off goes the t.v.

Regardless, when they walk into that room and there's something adult on,
boy-there's a moment of squirming nervousness. I'm like-eek! Shut your
eyes! Which is funny, because I remember my mom letting me come into the
room where a movie was on to get a goodnight kiss so long as I shut my eyes.
:-) I walked blindly into the room and usually tripped over the hassock.
Hmmm. I can remember my parents laughing. I wonder why. ;-)

Lee

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/3/2000 5:51:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
seamus@... writes:

> So I did my first sex talk! Whoopee! (and I mean that in the context of
> hurray, not as in "makin'" ;-) *And* with the gentle courtship dance of
> emperor scorpions going on in the background. I nearly cracked my composure
> when the narrator said "If the male scorpion displeases her, she'll kill
> him" !!! LOL! Lucky for human men, women don't have this option!
>

Or at least it's not an option we use often! LOL

Good job. Way to go.

Eiraul

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/2/2000 9:44:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
braunville@... writes:

> When I think we are living our lives around tv shows, the VCR gets used.
DS
> doesn't want to go someplace because a show is coming on...we record it.
9
> times out of 10 we never get around to watching whatever it was that was
so
> important we wanted to miss out on life. If it is important enough to
watch,
>
> it takes LOTS less time because we fast forward through all the
commercials!
>
> I really like that part. There are lots of times I don't mind the show
that
>
> is currently on but hate the commercial for an upcoming show or the latest
> toy.


i agree with the use of the VCR. It was just that in our house, Zack asked
to have every Cartoon Network afternoon show taped all the time. True, that
doesn't mean he actually ever got around to watching it, but it was just so
important that he have that lifeline to Cartoon Network. It got kinda scary
for me, so we've turned off the TV. It is now Day 4, and the first day Dad
isn't home to help distract the kids. But, so far so good. Zack's playing
with his new Pokemon game and I just helped Haley paint her papier mache
piggy bank she's making from a kit a friend gave her.

Carron

sharon childs

I am not the least bit uncomfortable with sex, I just feel it has no part in
a child's life. I have met people who think nothing of having sex in their
living room in front of their children,,,guess that would not be a whole lot
different than watching on t.v. but my personal opinion is these people have
no idea the kind of harm they are creating in their chil;dren's lives. By
the time there children are grown and they see the damage it will be set.

However, I realize I have seen far more of life than most people.

Some people are not the least bit uncomfortable with violence either, I know
because I have been a victim of kidnap, rape, being held hostage and being
shot at (more than once). I have lived long enough to see the result of
several generations grow up and live according to what they were subjected
to. The more you observe something, the more acceptable it becomes in your
mind.

I do not believe in letting them do whatever they want. I don't think a
child should raise themself . I believe they need some guidance and
assistance in this cruel world. Certain things can not be properly
comprehended or understood by a child and until they can understand it they
should not be subjected to it. There are a lot of sickos in this world and
some of them write the scripts we watch. I am just narrow minded enough not
to want these children subjected to the things in life that nearly destroyed
my life as a child.

I can not make others care about these things or understand them possibly,
but I can still have my feelings and opinions on the matter and I will still
try to raise well balanced children, with morals and compassion and
consideration for their fellow man ( or woman)

I am not talking about every little thing. I am talking about violence and
the physical act of sex. I do not and will not allow x -rated shows in my
house. I believe rated R shows should not be seen by small children.

I do not expect everyone to agree with me. If everybody raised their
children the same either they would all be hard core criminals, or none of
them would.

Sharon