Earth Moon

At 10:06 AM 8/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed marriage.  I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.
 
Meshell

Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made.

earthmoon, the spirited 3yo pooter and little bean due in Jan
Please come join us on the Positive Parenting e-list at:  http://www.egroups.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline
what did people do before diapers?  what we're doing now :)  Come check out my Elimination Communication e-list :  http://www.egroups.com/group/eliminationcommunication
We've got to give kids independent time right away because that is the key to self-knowledge, and we must re-involve them with the real world as fast as possible so that the independent time can be spent on something other than more abstraction. This is an emergency, it requires drastic action to correct - our children are dying like flies in schooling, good schooling or bad schooling, it's all the same. Irrelevant.

Earth Moon

At 10:06 AM 8/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed marriage.  I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.
 
Meshell

Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made.

earthmoon, the spirited 3yo pooter and little bean due in Jan
Please come join us on the Positive Parenting e-list at:  http://www.egroups.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline
what did people do before diapers?  what we're doing now :)  Come check out my Elimination Communication e-list :  http://www.egroups.com/group/eliminationcommunication
We've got to give kids independent time right away because that is the key to self-knowledge, and we must re-involve them with the real world as fast as possible so that the independent time can be spent on something other than more abstraction. This is an emergency, it requires drastic action to correct - our children are dying like flies in schooling, good schooling or bad schooling, it's all the same. Irrelevant.

Earth Moon

At 10:06 AM 8/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed marriage.  I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.
 
Meshell

Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made.

earthmoon, the spirited 3yo pooter and little bean due in Jan
Please come join us on the Positive Parenting e-list at:  http://www.egroups.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline
what did people do before diapers?  what we're doing now :)  Come check out my Elimination Communication e-list :  http://www.egroups.com/group/eliminationcommunication
We've got to give kids independent time right away because that is the key to self-knowledge, and we must re-involve them with the real world as fast as possible so that the independent time can be spent on something other than more abstraction. This is an emergency, it requires drastic action to correct - our children are dying like flies in schooling, good schooling or bad schooling, it's all the same. Irrelevant.

Earth Moon

At 10:06 AM 8/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed marriage.  I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.
 
Meshell

Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made.

earthmoon, the spirited 3yo pooter and little bean due in Jan
Please come join us on the Positive Parenting e-list at:  http://www.egroups.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline
what did people do before diapers?  what we're doing now :)  Come check out my Elimination Communication e-list :  http://www.egroups.com/group/eliminationcommunication
We've got to give kids independent time right away because that is the key to self-knowledge, and we must re-involve them with the real world as fast as possible so that the independent time can be spent on something other than more abstraction. This is an emergency, it requires drastic action to correct - our children are dying like flies in schooling, good schooling or bad schooling, it's all the same. Irrelevant.

Earth Moon

At 10:06 AM 8/4/00 -0700, you wrote:
My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed marriage.  I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.
 
Meshell

Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made.

earthmoon, the spirited 3yo pooter and little bean due in Jan
Please come join us on the Positive Parenting e-list at:  http://www.egroups.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline
what did people do before diapers?  what we're doing now :)  Come check out my Elimination Communication e-list :  http://www.egroups.com/group/eliminationcommunication
We've got to give kids independent time right away because that is the key to self-knowledge, and we must re-involve them with the real world as fast as possible so that the independent time can be spent on something other than more abstraction. This is an emergency, it requires drastic action to correct - our children are dying like flies in schooling, good schooling or bad schooling, it's all the same. Irrelevant.

Earth Moon

At 04:35 AM 8/5/00 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/4/00 8:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
>earthmoonwater@... writes:
>
><< Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made. >>
>
>and this point has now been made about 5 or 6 times...lol... did you realize
>this was sent that many times????

Nope - its the durn server! LOL - all my lists are like, em, are you
feeling EMPHATIC or something? :P


earthmoon, the spirited 3yo pooter and little bean due in Jan
Please come join us on the Positive Parenting e-list
at: http://www.egroups.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline
what did people do before diapers? what we're doing now :) Come check out
my Elimination Communication e-list
: http://www.egroups.com/group/eliminationcommunication
We've got to give kids independent time right away because that is the key
to self-knowledge, and we must re-involve them with the real world as fast
as possible so that the independent time can be spent on something other
than more abstraction. This is an emergency, it requires drastic action to
correct - our children are dying like flies in schooling, good schooling or
bad schooling, it's all the same. Irrelevant.

LisaKK

**My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband
makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed
marriage. I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have
to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.**

Meshell, I don't the response was so much a flame, as it is one other
poster's opinion. This list is full of opinionated people, who approach
life and all that it entails from many directions. We are not all
Christians, not all pagan, not all white, not all rich and not all poor.
It's how we learn to listen to one another that is important.

I actually agree with Dawn in one regard, husbands who do not take an
interest in the research and discovery of what works for the children should
no be granted dictatorial control, but neither can their input only come by
way of staying home. If my dh stayed home right now, we'd starve. That
wouldn't exactly be a smart move on his or my part.

While we may not agree on everything, we certainly learn from each other
when we discuss the *hard stuff*.

LisaKK

Meshell DeYoung

My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed marriage.  I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.
 
Meshell

Bonnie Painter

Lisa,

I would have to agree with you also. I didn't take it at all as a flame,
just someone frustrated over the situation many of us find ourselves in.

We too would starve should my husband decide to stay home (or live in a
paper box!) My husband has always said it is my decision to homeschool or
not, since he will not be the one who is staying home to do it. Also, he is
the one who thinks unschooling a good idea and often works with our kids
when he is home at night. I now find it necessary to find a job, so I will
probably be working at least three nights a week and he will be on "2nd
shift".

Bonnie

>Meshell, I don't the response was so much a flame, as it is one other
>poster's opinion. This list is full of opinionated people, who approach
>life and all that it entails from many directions. We are not all
>Christians, not all pagan, not all white, not all rich and not all poor.
>It's how we learn to listen to one another that is important.
>
>I actually agree with Dawn in one regard, husbands who do not take an
>interest in the research and discovery of what works for the children
>should
>no be granted dictatorial control, but neither can their input only come by
>way of staying home. If my dh stayed home right now, we'd starve. That
>wouldn't exactly be a smart move on his or my part.
>
>While we may not agree on everything, we certainly learn from each other
>when we discuss the *hard stuff*.
>
>LisaKK
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Meshell DeYoung

Lisa,
 
I appreciate your persective and I reread the post, and it still seems to have quite an angry tone.  My husband is very involved in the educational process of our children and has encouraged homeschooling from the very beginning.  He was conveying his trust in me by agreeing to go along with whatever method I thought best since I am with the children more than he is able to be.  He was also honest in his feelings of being just a bit uncomfortable with unschooling simply because he has very little knowledge of this method.  "Quizzing" the children is something he has always done as far as taking an active interest in what each child is learning and the types of things they find interesting and inspiring.  I feel strongly that that is a very healthy attitude to have.  I also understand that there are fathers out there who are not at all interested in the educational processes of their children, but this is not what I conveyed in my message, and thus did not deserve such a harsh reply.  As long as everyone decides to drop the subject here, I am willing to do the same.  I do, however feel that I deserve an apology, whether it be public or private.
 
Meshell

[email protected]

This is a very interesting thread... i'm not sure if we should stop
discussing it though... my husband has always been interested/involved in the
children's learning process... but it's because i am so interested and
involved in it...as i've said, my son was homeschooled for 2 years in 1st and
2nd grade, my daughter is staying home this september (7th grade for her)...
the rest of the time they've been in public school... i'm the one that most
often initiates the "is your homework done? do you need help? why don't you
get started now on the project that's 2 weeks away?" kind of questions... we
both have always helped together with all projects... but honestly, he's not
the consistent one, i am... because i have the time and energy to do it being
a stay at home mom.... as homeschoolers for our son, we each took on
different subjects to work with him on... i'm hoping that's how it will also
work that way with my daughter... if he weren't so involved, i'd definitely
resent his wanting to quiz the kids... in fact, i'd freak out most likely ...
lol ... right now, we're having discussion on how to go about homeschooling a
7th grader... we have VERY different opinions... but since i'm the one who
will be doing 70% of it, i will ultimately choose how i do it when she's with
me... my husband is a housepainter with his own business and i go to school 2
days a week and need other blocks of time for study... so for those times, my
daughter will be with him and he can do it his way... maybe it will turn into
a fun competition on who she learns more from ... lol...

jeanne

aworthen

----- Original Message -----
From: <NumoAstro@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 04, 2000 10:05 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Father's who want control


> In a message dated 8/4/2000 3:38:37 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
> [email protected] writes:
> is that it seems to me they are at work most of the time and don't
> actually participate in the daily dealing with kids who are unschooled.

I think many husbands participate a lot in their children's homeshooling
education. One of the things that makes me like this lifestyle so much is
the family participation. There are some things that I specifically save for
when mydh gets home.

> << He said he is ok with unschooling as long as I understand that he will
be
> quizzing the kids from time to time. >>

Although I don't agree with actual quizzing (because I don't believe in it
period), I do think that husbands have a vested interest in their children's
education and that is why they ask.>

It's
> like they are the teachers and the wives have to prove to them what the
kids
are learning or she won't be able to go on with it.

> If my kids were in school I would want him to be communicationg with the
teacher and asking the kids what they learned.

My husband is not one of those
> "I'll quiz them to see if they are up to the level I think they should be
at,
> even though I'm not around them most of the day"

My husband is not like this either, but just because he works, I would be
concerned if he didn't want to know things about my kid's education.


I completely ignored him because I knew he
> wouldn't be the one doing the research and reading the books etc.

I would be very sad if my husband wasn't a major part of the descion making
on atopic such as where my child would go to school.


If they
> are that interested in what's going on then they will be the ones to stay
> home and see on a daily basis what they are learning, without coming home
and
> "quizzing" them.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, I think they are interested. The
one's that don't ask are the ones with the issues.
Just my .02 cents of course. All IMHO...YMMV

Amy
Mom to Samantha, Dana, and Casey

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/00 5:16:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
aworthen@... writes:

<< Like I said at the beginning of my post, I think they are interested. The
one's that don't ask are the ones with the issues.
Just my .02 cents of course. All IMHO...YMMV
>>

I think many are interested/active/vital to the education process... and i
think some need to maintain control... they have issues too, i think...

Jeanne

<A HREF="http://rainforest.care2.com/front.html/player815">Join Care2.com's
Race for the Rain Forest!</A>

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/4/00 8:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
earthmoonwater@... writes:

<< Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made. >>

and this point has now been made about 5 or 6 times...lol... did you realize
this was sent that many times????

Meshell DeYoung

<< As long as everyone decides to drop the subject here, I am willing to do
the same>>   
 
There was nothing controlling in this post.  I was merely letting everyone know that I was not trying to turn this situation into an all out war-that while you and I disagreed, it shouldn't be made into something bigger than it should be.  It was not an act of trying to prevent anyone from giving an opinion.  Instead, since it was MY post that started the disagreement, I posted that I was willing to stop the disagreement.  And in fact, I had not posted anything else until now, despite the many other people who had written in.  I will now unsub from this list because I WAS being attacked in these last 2 posts and the attack was unjustifiable.  To those of you who emailed me with support, I thank you very much.
 
Meshell

susan wilson

this is JMO- but i don't understand why someone would be shocked and
upset by the fact that father/parental/adult control in a childs
education, is not blanketly supported/embraces by an unschooling
discussion group. imo dawn was expressing a fairly acceptible
unschooling position and therefore there is no victim (hence no need
for apology) simply meshell maybe be someone who is more of a relaxed
schooler than an unschooler. not a big deal.

this groups is for discussion of unschooling and control is not a
topic which would normally find much support here because it is not
consistant w/ unschooling as a general rule. as individuals we may
struggle w/ control issue and discuss these struggles and this would
fall under deschooling. but unschooling is child-led therefore if
someone other than the child steps in and says 'do it my way' or
'learn what i think is important' in that moment they have moved away
from unschooling principles and toward another method of learning. no
shame in that. unschooling IS a challenge for parent and that always
the best choice for family harmony but that is a family issue.

susan
austin,tx
fxfireob@...

-

Hi Dawn,
I do not feel insulted about your reply.  Everyone has a right to their opinion.  However, I must state that my DH wants what is best for our children also.  True, he is not there every day and does not know what goes on and he does not know if the children are learning or not.  If the situation were reversed, and I was the one supporting the family, I would probably react the same way. I would want to make sure the girls were learning what they need to in order to survive in this world.  Men and Women think differently and sometimes what he thinks is important, may not be so important to me and vise-versa!  He, being in the work place, knows a little more about that factor of life than I.  He knows what the kids need to know in order to survive in the workplace.  I have been a SAHM for 15 years and have no clue to that part of life! 
We make our decisions together, he definitely does not make all the decisions for me!  This is something that affects everyone in the family.  And the children are involved in our decision making as well.  The education of our children is something that is a little more important and worth fighting for.  He chooses his fights well (after being married for 18 years!), and the kids education and future is a cause worth fighting for! As it is for me as well! 
 
Jeez, I just re-read that and it sounds like we fight all the time!  We are actually best friends!  And he is easing up a lot on the "prove it to me" attitude on the girls schooling!  Our Children's future is a big responsibility and we only get one shot at it, so we want to make sure it is being done right! 
 
He also has a lot of good ideas that I want to utilize in the unschooling education of our girls!  I was laughing last night about something he said when we first started our homeschooling adventure.  Most of his ideas that he gave me for 'lessons' were all geared toward unschooling!  For example, he had the girls pick the ripe butternut squash, weigh, and measure them, then he had them write down every step they had to do to accomplish the task from walking out the front door, putting on their shoes, how many steps to the garden to getting out the scales and weighing and measuring to putting everything back up.  It doesn't sound like much, but it taught them how to follow (and give) directions.  Another good idea he had was to calculate all of the water (in square inches and gallons) in our fish aquarium minus the displacement of the gravel.  So even though he is suspicious about their education, he is on the right track!  It is me who insisted they use the workbooks!  I just run out of ideas after the first month! I know, I probably haven't quite grasped the full idea of unschooling yet, but that is why I joined this list!
 
OK, this post has gotten way to long!  I'll shut up now!
Kim
-----Original Message-----
From: NumoAstro@... <NumoAstro@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, August 04, 2000 7:06 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Father's who want control

In a message dated 8/4/2000 3:38:37 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< He said he is ok with unschooling as long as I understand that he will be
quizzing the kids from time to time. >>

Hi all:

I've been silent for a while, but when something annoys me I have to say
something.  What I love (sarcastic tone) about these "husbands/fathers/men of
children" is that it seems to me they are at work most of the time and don't
actually participate in the daily dealing with kids who are unschooled.  It's
like they are the teachers and the wives have to prove to them what the kids
are learning or she won't be able to go on with it.

I have found in all things that the less someone knows about a subject, such
as unschooling, the Libertarian Party, England, astrologer.... you pick the
subject, the more opinions they have about why it won't work or if you would
do.... then it would be like school...

I just think that living outside of the box as I do with this unschooling
situation is very misunderstood by others.  My husband is not one of those
"I'll quiz them to see if they are up to the level I think they should be at,
even though I'm not around them most of the day" husband and when we were
looking at sending Zak to Preschool.  He said something like "I want to make
sure it's blah, blah, blah and blah, blah, blah (you fill in the blanks)"  My
response was "that's nice dear"... I completely ignored him because I knew he
wouldn't be the one doing the research and reading the books etc.  If they
are that interested in what's going on then they will be the ones to stay
home and see on a daily basis what they are learning, without coming home and
"quizzing" them.

Hopefully those of you who are married to these "types" won't get defensive
about their behaviour but if you do, maybe that's something to look at....

Dawn F

-

You are lucky Jeanne and all the other Moms who get help from their husbands in educating their children!  My DH is always busy at work or at home (we live in the country) and doesn't seem to have much time.  I think that is a big reason he is so suspicious because he can't be a bigger part of it!  Most of our arguments also came from schooling our older daughter (14yo). 
 
I think it's a great idea to turn it into a competition!  Your DD can only benefit from it!
-----Original Message-----
From: Whyner@... <Whyner@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, August 04, 2000 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Father's who want control

This is a very interesting thread... i'm not sure if we should stop
discussing it though... my husband has always been interested/involved in the
children's learning process... but it's because i am so interested and
involved in it...as i've said, my son was homeschooled for 2 years in 1st and
2nd grade, my daughter is staying home this september (7th grade for her)...
the rest of the time they've been in public school... i'm the one that most
often initiates the "is your homework done?  do you need help?  why don't you
get started now on the project that's 2 weeks away?" kind of questions... we
both have always helped together with all projects... but honestly, he's not
the consistent one, i am... because i have the time and energy to do it being
a stay at home mom.... as homeschoolers for our son, we each took on
different subjects to work with him on... i'm hoping that's how it will also
work that way with my daughter... if he weren't so involved, i'd definitely
resent his wanting to quiz the kids... in fact, i'd freak out most likely ...
lol ... right now, we're having discussion on how to go about homeschooling a
7th grader... we have VERY different opinions... but since i'm the one who
will be doing 70% of it, i will ultimately choose how i do it when she's with
me... my husband is a housepainter with his own business and i go to school 2
days a week and need other blocks of time for study... so for those times, my
daughter will be with him and he can do it his way... maybe it will turn into
a fun competition on who she learns more from ... lol...

jeanne
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

Addresses:
Post message: [email protected]
Unsubscribe: [email protected]
List owner: [email protected]
List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Lynda

egroups has been burping again. I'm on multiple lists and have received 4
to 5 duplicates of individual posts on all the lists.

Lynda

----------
> From: Whyner@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Father's who want control
> Date: Saturday, August 05, 2000 1:35 AM
>
> In a message dated 8/4/00 8:41:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> earthmoonwater@... writes:
>
> << Not all of us ARE Christian - and I think the point was well made. >>
>
> and this point has now been made about 5 or 6 times...lol... did you
realize
> this was sent that many times????
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>

[email protected]

Jeanne:

Sorry, my computer crashed when I was responding to your post in response to
mine and it was lost. (I hope I spelled you name correctly.) I'm trying to
understand what I failed to communicate here. You said we shouldn't "write
off others ", but I clearly said that I delete **after** reading. I said so
in two different posts on this subject.

You also said that no one was telling her what should offend her. I never
said they were. I simply stated that **I** wasn't going to. I never accused
anyone of anything. I just said that she could always delete posts that were
offensive, instead of giving up on the list. I didn't say anyone had called
posts "life-changing". Those were my words and I didn't attribute them to
anyone else. Why am I failing to communicate that I am open to other ideas
and opinions, but I am also offended by some things and simply, at times,
simply delete them? Normally I do this when I recognize from previous posts
that the person is of a certain opinion and I agree to disagree.

I'm offended and will delete all future posts from you! (LOL) I am
****kidding****!!!!
candice

[email protected]

Dawn:

BRAVO!!!!!!!

Amy :0)



In a message dated 08/04/2000 7:07:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
NumoAstro@... writes:

> Hopefully those of you who are married to these "types" won't get defensive
> about their behaviour but if you do, maybe that's something to look at....
>
> Dawn F
>

[email protected]

Meshel:

I am sure that none of the replies are ment as a flame, and forgive us if we
sound that way. Please be patient with us, as some of us have had, to say
the least, very bad experiences with men (so called dads) and therefore are a
little more assertive than others. If you are lucky enough to have one of
those marriages where your dh makes decisions that are truly in the best
interest of your children, then count yourself very blessed. In this day and
age of court room battles (and I know, as I have been through one that has
left scars on both my son and myself) and parental rights taking precedence
over children's rights, some of us tend to be cinical. So, please forgive us
if we come across as flaming, and try to remember the rough road we have
traveled, for the sake and protection of our children.

Best wishes,
Amy



In a message dated 08/04/2000 7:11:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Homeschooling@... writes:

> My home is a Christian home, so as the head of our household, my husband
> makes the final decision on everything, and that is the way God designed
> marriage. I said nothing to invite such a flame and if this is what I have
> to look forward to here, I will gladly leave.
>
> Meshell
>