what kids need
[email protected]
I think schools would do best to let kids learn at their own speed, but not
even homeschoolers manage to do that much of the time.
Many, most or all of us were ahead in school and had our minds numbed by
repetition, by being forbidden to read a book or draw or write DURING that
repetition, and we learned from that to get away with as little as possible.
How small an effort will get me an A? Why do one jot more? (And why NOT to
do more is: the other kids will shame you if you're a girl, and hit you if
you're a boy.)
Some of the best teachers I had I consider best simply because they DID let
me read books when I wasn't "doing my work" ("work" meaning answering
questions at the ends of chapters in history and science books). They
weren't always great teachers, they were just benevolent jailers.
The same sort of damage sometimes done at schools can be done at home, too.
If kids are required to sit absolutely still and quietly while mom reads, it
will be sooner that they don't want mom to read so much. If kids are
required to "do their work" by the clock and calendar instead of by their
interest, soon they'll learn that great "how little do I have to do" trick
which can contribute to making such bad spouses and bad employees in the long
run. If kids' questions will only be answered during school hours, they'll
learn not to wonder and think during those off times, or they'll find someone
somewhere else who will answer their questions.
I used to teach Jr. High, kids who were 12 to 15. I did then and still do
have vivid memories of myself at that time--of whole conversations,
incidents, the very food at lunch and who I sat with lots of days--and I used
to say to the other teachers sometimes, "Don't you remember what it felt
like!?" and they would almost invariably look at me and in all seriousness
say, "No."
I have friends my age with maybe one or two traumatic memories of that age
period (or younger even), with maybe a vague memory of a summer camp or
something, but no details, no dialog, no names and birthdays. Trauma will do
that.
I also used to talk to my friends, just as I do with my friends now. I'd ask
them why they did and thought what they did. I'd ask them about their
parents and what they liked most about their parents and what they were
afraid of. I was out unschooling sociology and psychology, I guess, in
retrospect.
So now sometimes I deal with homeschoolers who don't have vivid memories of
their own childhoods, nor of school, and some of whom were never analytical
about what teachers did and why, they just simply decided "I hate it" and
thought no more deeply about it.
It helps when people have beliefs and theories and ideas to work from instead
of patterns. Some people have criticized me on the grounds of their own
belief that I want to tell people how to homeschool. I want people to show
me they're thinking about why they're doing what they do. When someone asks
me for ideas or advice and they reject those without thought (it often seems,
and sometimes is confessed) just because the ideas and advice don't match
what they were already planning to do, I do get grumpy. It's not because the
person won't do what I say--not at all. It's because the person wasted my
time. I thought they wanted new input. What they really wanted was
validation.
I cannot validate what people do unthinkingly. It is hard to impossible to
unschool unthinkingly.
I have said sometimes that some people just cannot unschool; it won't work.
I've gotten criticism for that too. I believe it, though. Unless a parent
believes and practices learning for fun, that parent won't trust that
children can learn. Unless a parent thoughtfully observes all the learning
that's going on around him--in his friends' hobbies, in clubs, in playing, in
talking--he won't know where to look for learning in his children's everyday
lives.
Someone wrote once "You can't make me think."
Y'think?!!?
Anyone who has read this far was thinkin' up a storm.
Sandra Dodd
Albuquerque
even homeschoolers manage to do that much of the time.
Many, most or all of us were ahead in school and had our minds numbed by
repetition, by being forbidden to read a book or draw or write DURING that
repetition, and we learned from that to get away with as little as possible.
How small an effort will get me an A? Why do one jot more? (And why NOT to
do more is: the other kids will shame you if you're a girl, and hit you if
you're a boy.)
Some of the best teachers I had I consider best simply because they DID let
me read books when I wasn't "doing my work" ("work" meaning answering
questions at the ends of chapters in history and science books). They
weren't always great teachers, they were just benevolent jailers.
The same sort of damage sometimes done at schools can be done at home, too.
If kids are required to sit absolutely still and quietly while mom reads, it
will be sooner that they don't want mom to read so much. If kids are
required to "do their work" by the clock and calendar instead of by their
interest, soon they'll learn that great "how little do I have to do" trick
which can contribute to making such bad spouses and bad employees in the long
run. If kids' questions will only be answered during school hours, they'll
learn not to wonder and think during those off times, or they'll find someone
somewhere else who will answer their questions.
I used to teach Jr. High, kids who were 12 to 15. I did then and still do
have vivid memories of myself at that time--of whole conversations,
incidents, the very food at lunch and who I sat with lots of days--and I used
to say to the other teachers sometimes, "Don't you remember what it felt
like!?" and they would almost invariably look at me and in all seriousness
say, "No."
I have friends my age with maybe one or two traumatic memories of that age
period (or younger even), with maybe a vague memory of a summer camp or
something, but no details, no dialog, no names and birthdays. Trauma will do
that.
I also used to talk to my friends, just as I do with my friends now. I'd ask
them why they did and thought what they did. I'd ask them about their
parents and what they liked most about their parents and what they were
afraid of. I was out unschooling sociology and psychology, I guess, in
retrospect.
So now sometimes I deal with homeschoolers who don't have vivid memories of
their own childhoods, nor of school, and some of whom were never analytical
about what teachers did and why, they just simply decided "I hate it" and
thought no more deeply about it.
It helps when people have beliefs and theories and ideas to work from instead
of patterns. Some people have criticized me on the grounds of their own
belief that I want to tell people how to homeschool. I want people to show
me they're thinking about why they're doing what they do. When someone asks
me for ideas or advice and they reject those without thought (it often seems,
and sometimes is confessed) just because the ideas and advice don't match
what they were already planning to do, I do get grumpy. It's not because the
person won't do what I say--not at all. It's because the person wasted my
time. I thought they wanted new input. What they really wanted was
validation.
I cannot validate what people do unthinkingly. It is hard to impossible to
unschool unthinkingly.
I have said sometimes that some people just cannot unschool; it won't work.
I've gotten criticism for that too. I believe it, though. Unless a parent
believes and practices learning for fun, that parent won't trust that
children can learn. Unless a parent thoughtfully observes all the learning
that's going on around him--in his friends' hobbies, in clubs, in playing, in
talking--he won't know where to look for learning in his children's everyday
lives.
Someone wrote once "You can't make me think."
Y'think?!!?
Anyone who has read this far was thinkin' up a storm.
Sandra Dodd
Albuquerque
Laura Bush
Doesn't the question of how hard you have to think about unschooling have
something to do with how thoroughly one is deschooled? Or how invested one
was in school's ways to begin with?
For me, someone whose chief identity for many years was all wrapped up in
school, in being a great student, in being "smart" as school defines that,
if I'm not thinking, I'll be reacting like that great student I once was:
worrying about whether my kids measure up to school standards, drooling over
curriculum catalogs, etc. So if I want to live out what I believe in my head
about how people, including children, learn and grow and thrive, I have to
think about it, analyze my reactions, poke and prod my gut-level feelings
and examine it all in the light of my intellectual beliefs.
Laura Bush
laura@...
http://www.honeypot-hollow.com
something to do with how thoroughly one is deschooled? Or how invested one
was in school's ways to begin with?
For me, someone whose chief identity for many years was all wrapped up in
school, in being a great student, in being "smart" as school defines that,
if I'm not thinking, I'll be reacting like that great student I once was:
worrying about whether my kids measure up to school standards, drooling over
curriculum catalogs, etc. So if I want to live out what I believe in my head
about how people, including children, learn and grow and thrive, I have to
think about it, analyze my reactions, poke and prod my gut-level feelings
and examine it all in the light of my intellectual beliefs.
Laura Bush
laura@...
http://www.honeypot-hollow.com
----- Original Message -----
> It is hard to impossible to
> do anything unthinkingly. But I don't see any reason to be constantly
> analyzing, agonizing, poking, prodding, checking, rechecking, and
> critically examining what we do. For some people, it's probably a
> necessity. For others, it's a damned nuisance. Some people live with all
> their feelers extended, waving wildly, searching for input, and others go
> about with theirs neatly trimmed alongside, there when they need them, but
> not getting in the way otherwise.
>
Carol E. Burris
Helen wrote:
they accept or
reject or totally ignore your advice? My kids do that all the
time, and
I've learned that it doesn't *mean* the same things I once
thought it
meant. They might *appear* to ignore me at the time, but they'll
often come around a day or two later and present the very same
notions - get this - as *their own* ideas! Somewhere in their
little psyches my words hit bottom, even if they weren't ready to
admit it at the time, and subtle changes were made that probably
would have been destroyed if I'd insisted on some kind of "prove
you heard and understood me" validation at the time I answered
them. <
I'm SOOO jealous. Only a day or two later? Not MY family. More
like months or years....
But, levity aside, I think you make an important point here. We
can't know how someone else takes our words - or actions - based
on the immediate reaction. We have to take it on faith that what
we say and do have impact somewhere, sometime. That's both my
hope for the future and reason to try to be aware and careful
about what I say and do. It's also what keeps me willing to
answer my support group's "can you home school teens?" calls.
It's also something that my teens sometimes have trouble
grasping.
And, since I never posted an intro here, I'm been living and
learning in three states with my family since 1988. Kids are 16
and 19. And no, I don't count the preschool years.
Carol
mail to:excaliburris@...
Friend of Ishmael
The world shines bright with endless possibilities each time a
child is born.
>Besides wasting a moment or two of time (I could argue whetherthat was actually a waste, but won't), why does it bother you if
they accept or
reject or totally ignore your advice? My kids do that all the
time, and
I've learned that it doesn't *mean* the same things I once
thought it
meant. They might *appear* to ignore me at the time, but they'll
often come around a day or two later and present the very same
notions - get this - as *their own* ideas! Somewhere in their
little psyches my words hit bottom, even if they weren't ready to
admit it at the time, and subtle changes were made that probably
would have been destroyed if I'd insisted on some kind of "prove
you heard and understood me" validation at the time I answered
them. <
I'm SOOO jealous. Only a day or two later? Not MY family. More
like months or years....
But, levity aside, I think you make an important point here. We
can't know how someone else takes our words - or actions - based
on the immediate reaction. We have to take it on faith that what
we say and do have impact somewhere, sometime. That's both my
hope for the future and reason to try to be aware and careful
about what I say and do. It's also what keeps me willing to
answer my support group's "can you home school teens?" calls.
It's also something that my teens sometimes have trouble
grasping.
And, since I never posted an intro here, I'm been living and
learning in three states with my family since 1988. Kids are 16
and 19. And no, I don't count the preschool years.
Carol
mail to:excaliburris@...
Friend of Ishmael
The world shines bright with endless possibilities each time a
child is born.
Home Education Magazine
En garde, Sandra dear, I'm about to disagree with you again. <g>
- school. I just did. It was a gnarly place to be before I ever even heard
the word gnarly. I can't even imagine trying to be analytical about what
happened in school, what those teachers did or why they always acted so
weird - that was years ago, water under the bridge, who cares now? I yam
what I yam and that's cool.
Sometimes it's a gut-level "this feels right" type of thing. If I had to
analyze what I do enough to explain it to someone else it would drive me
nuts. I do what I do and that's cool.
advice, I suppose they owe you a debt of "I'm paying attention to what you
have to say" or something. Help me out here... But I'm still puzzled.
Besides wasting a moment or two of time (I could argue whether that was
actually a waste, but won't), why does it bother you if they accept or
reject or totally ignore your advice? My kids do that all the time, and
I've learned that it doesn't *mean* the same things I once thought it
meant. They might *appear* to ignore me at the time, but they'll often come
around a day or two later and present the very same notions - get this - as
*their own* ideas! Somewhere in their little psyches my words hit bottom,
even if they weren't ready to admit it at the time, and subtle changes were
made that probably would have been destroyed if I'd insisted on some kind
of "prove you heard and understood me" validation at the time I answered
them.
hard to impossible to
do anything unthinkingly. But I don't see any reason to be constantly
analyzing, agonizing, poking, prodding, checking, rechecking, and
critically examining what we do. For some people, it's probably a
necessity. For others, it's a damned nuisance. Some people live with all
their feelers extended, waving wildly, searching for input, and others go
about with theirs neatly trimmed alongside, there when they need them, but
not getting in the way otherwise.
conscious decision.
In thoughtful good fun,
Helen
>So now sometimes I deal with homeschoolers who don't have vivid memories ofGuilty as charged. I never thought much about why I disliked - okay, hated
>their own childhoods, nor of school, and some of whom were never analytical
>about what teachers did and why, they just simply decided "I hate it" and
>thought no more deeply about it.
- school. I just did. It was a gnarly place to be before I ever even heard
the word gnarly. I can't even imagine trying to be analytical about what
happened in school, what those teachers did or why they always acted so
weird - that was years ago, water under the bridge, who cares now? I yam
what I yam and that's cool.
>It helps when people have beliefs and theories and ideas to work from insteadBut... but... I'm not always thinking. Sometimes I'm just reacting.
>of patterns. Some people have criticized me on the grounds of their own
>belief that I want to tell people how to homeschool. I want people to show
>me they're thinking about why they're doing what they do.
Sometimes it's a gut-level "this feels right" type of thing. If I had to
analyze what I do enough to explain it to someone else it would drive me
nuts. I do what I do and that's cool.
>When someone asksOkay, now this is different. If someone *asks* you for your ideas or
>me for ideas or advice and they reject those without thought (it often seems,
>and sometimes is confessed) just because the ideas and advice don't match
>what they were already planning to do, I do get grumpy. It's not because the
>person won't do what I say--not at all. It's because the person wasted my
>time. I thought they wanted new input. What they really wanted was
>validation.
advice, I suppose they owe you a debt of "I'm paying attention to what you
have to say" or something. Help me out here... But I'm still puzzled.
Besides wasting a moment or two of time (I could argue whether that was
actually a waste, but won't), why does it bother you if they accept or
reject or totally ignore your advice? My kids do that all the time, and
I've learned that it doesn't *mean* the same things I once thought it
meant. They might *appear* to ignore me at the time, but they'll often come
around a day or two later and present the very same notions - get this - as
*their own* ideas! Somewhere in their little psyches my words hit bottom,
even if they weren't ready to admit it at the time, and subtle changes were
made that probably would have been destroyed if I'd insisted on some kind
of "prove you heard and understood me" validation at the time I answered
them.
>I cannot validate what people do unthinkingly. It is hard to impossible toThis was the phrase that actually pushed my button into replying. It is
>unschool unthinkingly.
hard to impossible to
do anything unthinkingly. But I don't see any reason to be constantly
analyzing, agonizing, poking, prodding, checking, rechecking, and
critically examining what we do. For some people, it's probably a
necessity. For others, it's a damned nuisance. Some people live with all
their feelers extended, waving wildly, searching for input, and others go
about with theirs neatly trimmed alongside, there when they need them, but
not getting in the way otherwise.
>I have said sometimes that some people just cannot unschool; it won't work.Once again, this stuff can be internalized without needing to be a
>I've gotten criticism for that too. I believe it, though. Unless a parent
>believes and practices learning for fun, that parent won't trust that
>children can learn. Unless a parent thoughtfully observes all the learning
>that's going on around him--in his friends' hobbies, in clubs, in playing, in
>talking--he won't know where to look for learning in his children's everyday
>lives.
conscious decision.
>Someone wrote once "You can't make me think."Yep. You win. I think. <g>
>Y'think?!!?
>Anyone who has read this far was thinkin' up a storm.
In thoughtful good fun,
Helen
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/17/99 9:10:03 AM, HEM-Editor@... writes:
<<Okay, now this is different. If someone *asks* you for your ideas or
advice, I suppose they owe you a debt of "I'm paying attention to what you
have to say" or something. Help me out here... But I'm still puzzled.
Besides wasting a moment or two of time (I could argue whether that was
actually a waste, but won't), why does it bother you if they accept or
reject or totally ignore your advice?>>
I'm not Sandra, and I don't play her on TV. I don't even dress up as her on
Halloween. <eg>
In the past, I've seen people who didn't like Sandra's advice, metaphorically
take the advice, hurl it to ground, stomp it to bits, AND then whine about it
in an aggrieved tone.
Sandra's advice is strong enough to hold up under a little kicking -- but the
whining doesn't do anyone a bit of good.
Maybe that's why she doesn't relish having her advice rejected?
Betsy
<<Okay, now this is different. If someone *asks* you for your ideas or
advice, I suppose they owe you a debt of "I'm paying attention to what you
have to say" or something. Help me out here... But I'm still puzzled.
Besides wasting a moment or two of time (I could argue whether that was
actually a waste, but won't), why does it bother you if they accept or
reject or totally ignore your advice?>>
I'm not Sandra, and I don't play her on TV. I don't even dress up as her on
Halloween. <eg>
In the past, I've seen people who didn't like Sandra's advice, metaphorically
take the advice, hurl it to ground, stomp it to bits, AND then whine about it
in an aggrieved tone.
Sandra's advice is strong enough to hold up under a little kicking -- but the
whining doesn't do anyone a bit of good.
Maybe that's why she doesn't relish having her advice rejected?
Betsy
MOX
>Oh, I believe it does. As I'm deschooling myself I see changes in my kids
> Doesn't the question of how hard you have to think about unschooling have
> something to do with how thoroughly one is deschooled? Or how invested one
> was in school's ways to begin with?
>
> Laura Bush
unschooling. It is a process that takes time. It's those moments when I see
myself being "schoolish" that I stop myself to actually think about why I
think it has to be done that way. At first I was worried that I might be
damaging my kids, but now I think that it is good that they see me
questioning that box I lived in. As I experience freedom of learning for
myself the more I can comprehend it for my kids.
Oh, btw, I'm Tonia and joined a week or two ago. My DH and I have three kids
(10ys, 8yd, 5ys) that have always been unschooled (yes, even with my school
hang ups that I'm trying to get over I consider them to be unschooled, thank
goodness for laziness-lol- I couldn't keep to a curriculum if I tried). I'm
enjoying the discussions on this loop and look forward to many more.
Tonia
mox@...
Hammond, OR
"I'm a man and I can change, if I have to, I guess." -Red Green show-PBS
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/DeschoolingAdults