Earth Moon

At 01:25 PM 7/30/00 +0000, you wrote:
> >my second question is why do we feel a need to punish our children for
> >being sassy (because let's face it, no matter how much we warn, count and
> >be calm about taking away the nintendo, it's not a true consequence of
> >their sassiness--it's a punishment)?
>
>
>Yes, I am bothered by sassy behavior whether it is towards me or anyone
>else. I will not tolerate being spoken to in a disrestectful manner by my
>children. I think that the natural consequence of this behavior is me
>getting really p****d off. If, then, I do not want to spend the money I have
>worked extremely hard for to take the rude child to the new Pokemon movie,
>but to instead spend it on myself, or stay home and relax in front of a
>movie I want to see instead of having the Nintendo on, that is a very
>natural and direct consequence. If I am treated with love and respect for my
>feelings, then I will return it by sharing my money and giving up my time at
>home to run people all over town. If my children do not appreciate all I do
>for them, then I won't do it. What could be a more natural consequence?
>
>Cathie
>_

There are great resources for Positive parenting (non-punative
/non-permissive model of parenting) at the list in my sig line :) Lots of
great ideas from moms of chihldren of many different ages :)


earthmoon, the spirited 3yo pooter and little bean due in Jan
Please come join us on the Positive Parenting e-list
at: http://www.egroups.com/group/PositiveParenting-Discipline
what did people do before diapers? what we're doing now :) Come check out
my Elimination Communication e-list
: http://www.egroups.com/group/eliminationcommunication

Sonia Ulan

I learned something from you today, Eiraul! Some excellent
advice/ideas!

I was going to add a little something for Annette myself...My daughter
just turned 8 years of age 2 weeks ago. Believe me, almost every day of
this past (her 7th) year was a battle. There has been some great advice
shared and many intelligent points have been made worthy of
consideration, but perhaps some of this challenge could literally be
attributed to "an age thing" or a "phase". "Terrible Twos", "Fiercesome
Fours", "Savage Sevens"??? Not to trivialize the issue of unruly
children but perhaps a "savage seven" year old does not neccessarily
become a sociopath. My daughter has already shown MAJOR improvement in
recent weeks!

Sonia in Saskatoon


braunville@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 7/28/2000 3:28:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> naake1999@... writes:
>
> > I feel hurt and abused. I feel like a terrible mom. I don't know whether to
> > get strict with them or just back off, but I have had some pretty drastic
> > thoughts.
> >
>
> Repeat after me: I am the mom, I am the mom, I am the mom.
>
> {{{{{HUGS}}}}}}
>
> Now, the trick is to REMEMBER that...you are the mom. That means you are an
> adult, by definition, at least. <LOL>
>
> I took a parenting class way back when my kid was about that age (almost 15
> years ago!). The most profound thing I heard in the whole 6 or 8 week class
> was a mom talking about how frustrated she would get with her 5 yr old when
> he would totally refuse to be cooperative and was generally rude and
> obnoxious and here she was trying her darnedest to be nice to the kid, (say
> nothing of avoiding a felonious act, ie murder!). Anyway, she said she
> finally figured it out: if she (or DH) reacted to the child in like manner
> (yelling, being mad, etc.) there were suddenly twice as many 5 yr olds in the
> house!
>
> So, 'I'm the mom' means don't react like a 5/7/3 yr old, no matter how
> tempting it may be. Stick to your guns as nicely as possible, but don't be a
> doormat. (nothing new here, huh? You already know all this, don't you? We
> all do and we all get frustrated in the heat of the battle. Don't let it
> throw you.)
>
> The second most important thing I learned from that parenting class is that
> sooner or later your child is going to want something from you. If he/she
> learns that they are NOT going to get what they want by being rude or
> breaking the rules, you will eventually have a bargaining chip. Sometimes
> you really have to wait and watch to find something that works. In this case
> an example might be to refuse to get food while the child is demanding it.
> (if that leaves you feeling guilty, have something available he can get for
> himself...a cup of yogurt, slices of cheese, grapes, etc...and calmly say the
> <fill in the blanks> are in the fridge, help yourself). Won't take long and
> he'll get the idea.
>
> Can't tackle every issue at the same time, though. Pick your battles if you
> can.
>
> Having given this very sage advice (LOL...it's really too bad you can't see
> my own family to know how totally ridiculous it is for me to claim wisdom!),
> first take a gut level assessment of things at home/in your life and kidlet's
> lives. Is there any turmoil going on? Anyone teething? Schedule off? Mom
> or dad busier than usual? Missing out on bedtime stories/prayers/bath or
> other rituals? Getting enough sleep? Enough down time? Take the kids to
> the park lately? Played Legos?
>
> I think that most of the time when kids are acting up suddenly, it is either
> a growing stage where they are trying to find their place in the world or
> there is something out of place in their lives. My experience is that it can
> often be something that seems to be nothing out of the ordinary to the
> adults. But, think about it, we have so much more life experience. We know
> from our own experience that teething, for instance, really doesn't go on
> forever...the sore mouth will go away. But little people just don't have
> that frame of reference to yet. They can't think past the moment.
>
> Having said all this...the best advice I've seen yet was the one about the
> bubble bath! Make sure you get some time to be an adult. A chance to have
> conversations with other adults about adult things might be nice. How long
> since you and DH have been on a date? (making an assumption here that you
> are married, based on age of kids) When was the last time you went to a
> grown up movie? (pokemon does NOT count!)
>
> It'll pass. Good luck. I agree with the post that you are a good mom and it
> is apparent because you care enough to seek solutions. I'm confident you'll
> keep looking until you find something that fits. Sometimes that's the most
> important skill...tenacity to hang tough and find answers or wait out the
> storm. (of course, as soon as you figure out how to play the game, the kids
> will change the rules and you get to start all over again! bg)
>
> Eiraul
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>
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Annette Naake

HELP!

My 7yo boy is rude and sassy all day long. When I ask him a question, he
answers with, "Duh!" If I ask him to do something, he asks why, and when I
explain, he argues with me. He pesters constantly to have friends over or to
watch more TV. If I say no, he slams out of the room, pouts, yells, calls me
mean, etc. When he wants a snack, he yells, "MOM! I'm HUNGRT! Get me
something to eat!" And when I object ot that he just doesn't answer or yells
again. Sometimes I'll lightly rephrase his demand: "Mom, can I have
something to eat please?" He ignores me. When I scold or admonish, he tells
me to leave him alone or get out of his room. He is a total brat, in other
words. Nothing seems to help.

Meanwhile, my 3yo boy starts the day by calling me a "dumb butt," and
screams at me when I refuse him anything. He asks for food, then throws it
down or ignores it, then screams at me when I dispose of it!

On top of it all, the two of them bicker, fight, whine and chase each other
around all day. It's better when we're out, or if they're settled in front
of the TV, but we can't do either all day. There are lots of times when
we're just home.

I feel hurt and abused. I feel like a terrible mom. I don't know whether to
get strict with them or just back off, but I have had some pretty drastic
thoughts.

Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.

Annette
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Tracy Oldfield

Annette, a big hug and a round of sympathy for you!!! I know it's
hard to live with when it seems like nothing you say or do makes a
difference to how they are. You're not a terrible mom, though.
Know how I know? because you know that there's a problem
here and you've asked for help to fix it. You care.

I like the ideas in Faber and Mazlish's book 'siblings without
rivalry,' and for training anyone (including oneself) 'Don't shhot
the dog by Karen Pryor is great. Above all, know that there are
things you can do, and that the fact that you're asking questions
adn trying to sort out this situation so you can all live, means that
you're a great mother, because you care.

I can go on at length, but my kids have their on-and-off days, so I
don't want to preach <g> Always here if you need an ear (or pair
of eyes...)

Tracy

On 28 Jul 2000, at 17:27, Annette Naake wrote:



HELP!

My 7yo boy is rude and sassy all day long. When I ask
him a question, he 
answers with, "Duh!" If I ask him to do something, he
asks why, and when I 
explain, he argues with me. He pesters constantly to
have friends over or to 
watch more TV.

[email protected]

First, you are so glad when they learn to talk! Then you just can't get wait
for them to fall asleep so you can get some peace and quiet.

Nothing but sympathy here -- BTDT but no magic solutions. Some days are
better than others!

I'm sure you will get lots of advice and some of it might even help!

My advice: wait until Dad gets home then take a long bubble bath!!

Good luck.

Nance

dawn

any number of days at my house could be described as you have described
yours. However, my kids aren't like this when they are in the company of
others (usually). That's when they tend to be polite and respectful
(toward adults, and sometimes other kids;) ). So I figure I'm successful
in teaching them to be respectful and can take some sass at home. I'm
assuming they will grow out of it if I continue to do my best to model
respect and dignity (which is sometimes quite hard for me. I'd love to
call people butt-head at times)


dawn h-s

" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham

Tracy Oldfield

On the subject of 'thank you,' i have one who says it and one who
doesn't. I say 'you're welcome' to both of them, and i try to keep
the sarcasm out of my voice <grin> that thing of treating them as
if they're behaving how you want them to... And i say 'I
understand what you're telling me, you want such-and-such. I
prefer to be asked politely, you could say 'please can I have...'

Tracy

On 28 Jul 2000, at 18:53, Sue wrote:

Hi Annette,


I have seen a lot of my friends in a similar situation
to what you are 
in, and have seen boys like your's turn into absolute
assholes of 
men who treat their girlfriends and wives like shit.
The one thing in 
common with these kids Moms is that they were really
lovely 
women who cared deeply for their kids therefore didn't
want to be 
too strict with them fearing that they may damage their
kids self 
esteem or whatever. 

For your own sake and for these boy's futures maybe you
need to 
get strict, if they speak out of line to you, pretend
they didn't say a 
thing, don't hear demands, this may take a while but
eventually 
they will discover that if they want their needs to be
met, then they 
must ask properly.... and them thank you afterwards.

Good luck, take care of yourself.

Sue

Sue

Hi Annette,

If a child yelled at me "MOM, I'm hungry! Get me something to
eat", he'd be hungrier still before he got a thing. Don't accept that
behaviour, it only makes you miserable and makes them brattier
every day. I feel that a child doesn't just start doing these things
without learning it from somewhere, whether it is from television,
their Father, a friend, or relative, it had to have come from
somewhere. By accepting it you are enforcing their bad behaviour
and turning them into the type of man that no woman should ever
have to suffer. The way a boy treats his Mother is reflected years
later in his treatment of his wife and probably his children too.

Don't allow them to speak to you like you were their servant, you
are their Mother and deserve to be treated respectfully. Stop this
behaviour while they are still young enough to be stopped, if you
think it's bad to have a 3yr old and a 7yr old verbally abusing you,
just wait until they are 13 and 17 and more than likely bigger and
stronger than you.

These are the men of tomorrow that you are raising, make them
men to be proud of.

I have seen a lot of my friends in a similar situation to what you are
in, and have seen boys like your's turn into absolute assholes of
men who treat their girlfriends and wives like shit. The one thing in
common with these kids Moms is that they were really lovely
women who cared deeply for their kids therefore didn't want to be
too strict with them fearing that they may damage their kids self
esteem or whatever.

For your own sake and for these boy's futures maybe you need to
get strict, if they speak out of line to you, pretend they didn't say a
thing, don't hear demands, this may take a while but eventually
they will discover that if they want their needs to be met, then they
must ask properly.... and them thank you afterwards.

Good luck, take care of yourself.

Sue
Mom to Robert 27, Aaron 25, Lisa 24, Evan 22, James 19,
Nathan 15, Rhainon 11, Madeleine 6 and Stephanie 4.

> HELP!
>
> My 7yo boy is rude and sassy all day long. When I ask him a question, he
> answers with, "Duh!" If I ask him to do something, he asks why, and when I
> explain, he argues with me. He pesters constantly to have friends over or to
> watch more TV. If I say no, he slams out of the room, pouts, yells, calls me
> mean, etc. When he wants a snack, he yells, "MOM! I'm HUNGRT! Get me
> something to eat!" And when I object ot that he just doesn't answer or yells
> again. Sometimes I'll lightly rephrase his demand: "Mom, can I have
> something to eat please?" He ignores me. When I scold or admonish, he tells
> me to leave him alone or get out of his room. He is a total brat, in other
> words. Nothing seems to help.
>
> Meanwhile, my 3yo boy starts the day by calling me a "dumb butt," and
> screams at me when I refuse him anything. He asks for food, then throws it
> down or ignores it, then screams at me when I dispose of it!
>
> On top of it all, the two of them bicker, fight, whine and chase each other
> around all day. It's better when we're out, or if they're settled in front
> of the TV, but we can't do either all day. There are lots of times when
> we're just home.
>
> I feel hurt and abused. I feel like a terrible mom. I don't know whether to
> get strict with them or just back off, but I have had some pretty drastic
> thoughts.
>
> Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.
>
> Annette

Sue

The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm

"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi

Bonnie Painter

This sounds like my house Annette except my oldest boy is 5 and my 3 yo is a
girl.

I've heard myself saying "You two will drive me insane for sure" a lot more
than I want to be.

Bonnie


>From: "Annette Naake" <naake1999@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] sassy kids
>Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:27:32 CDT
>
>
>
>HELP!
>
>My 7yo boy is rude and sassy all day long. When I ask him a question, he
>answers with, "Duh!" If I ask him to do something, he asks why, and when I
>explain, he argues with me. He pesters constantly to have friends over or
>to
>watch more TV. If I say no, he slams out of the room, pouts, yells, calls
>me
>mean, etc. When he wants a snack, he yells, "MOM! I'm HUNGRT! Get me
>something to eat!" And when I object ot that he just doesn't answer or
>yells
>again. Sometimes I'll lightly rephrase his demand: "Mom, can I have
>something to eat please?" He ignores me. When I scold or admonish, he tells
>me to leave him alone or get out of his room. He is a total brat, in other
>words. Nothing seems to help.
>
>Meanwhile, my 3yo boy starts the day by calling me a "dumb butt," and
>screams at me when I refuse him anything. He asks for food, then throws it
>down or ignores it, then screams at me when I dispose of it!
>
>On top of it all, the two of them bicker, fight, whine and chase each other
>around all day. It's better when we're out, or if they're settled in front
>of the TV, but we can't do either all day. There are lots of times when
>we're just home.
>
>I feel hurt and abused. I feel like a terrible mom. I don't know whether to
>get strict with them or just back off, but I have had some pretty drastic
>thoughts.
>
>Any suggestions or thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>Annette
>________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

M & J Welch

Hi Annette! :-)

2 of my kids are the same age as yours, and I also had problems with my 7
year old being rude, and my 3 year old copying him. I swear, my 7 year old
seemed to skip from the hyper active toddler behavior at about 4 1/2 to 5
right into his teen age years. Grrr!! :-)

He's much better now, and my 3 year old no longer models his big brother's
rudeness. Instead he models his polite behavior. A few things played a part
in this change. First, I was given a Disney tape by my mom which tells
stories and talks about polite behavior. I played it constantly. I also made
use of children's self-help storybooks that teach manners. I'm afraid I
can't think of any right now except "Clifford's Manners", but that one is
pretty boring. ;-)

I set up a behavioral modification chart-writing out what kinds of behaviors
I expected my son to follow and giving him stars whenever he did them. Some
of the behaviors I delineated were saying thank you, please and your
welcome, not whining, not calling names etc. When he earned enough stars he
was able to gain bigger rewards-like staying up later or a special treat.

I also sat down and had a talk with my son. I explained how it made me feel
to be spoken to rudely, and I made it clear that from now on I would not
reacte rude requests. The "I'm Hungry" was a big one. I normally responded
by saying "Hi, hungry. My name is Lee. How are you today?" Sometimes it
felt like I was saying this all day long, but eventually it worked (after
weeks and weeks). Be careful with this "I'm hungry" bit. A lot of the times
they aren't hungry, just bored. Or even thirsty. Depending upon the
situation, I would ask him, "Are you really hungry, or could you be
thirsty?" If he'd just eaten I knew he was probably just bored. Distracting
him with an Otter pop (low sugar snack) and giving him a chore to do usually
motivated him to find something on his own. I also tried ignoring him, but,
being human, I didn't always suceed. In fact, he tended to behave worse
when I did. Humor really saved my sanity on a lot of days, since ignoring
him all the time was pretty impossible.

The other thing I did was examine my own behavior closely. I grew up in a
family that yelled a lot-and I realised that I yelled a lot, too. I also
realised that most of the time, instead of explaining why I wanted my son to
do something, I was simply giving commands. I really dislike it when people
talk to me the way I was talking to my son, so I stopped talking to him that
way-even when he was rude to me. When he was rude, I would point it out to
him by saying "You're not being polite to me. Please try harder to say what
you want in a nice way so I can help you get it." When my son saw that I was
listening, he calmed down and rephrased his request in a polite way.

I also made it a point to praise him when he acted politely on his own, and
let him know how pleased I was with his behavior. Whenever he said "Thank
you" I would say "Thank you for saying thank you, sweety!" and give him a
hug or a smile.

What I found was that by remodeling my own behavior-keeping my tone of voice
even, speaking calmly and treating my son exactly the way I wished to be
treated, my son began to realise that his behavior wasn't appropriate. It
took time, and it is still a work in progress. There are times when I feel
like pulling my hair out by the roots, but these times are getting rarer and
rarer. More like once every couple of days instead of all day everyday.

I know this isn't easy. It's demeaning and frustrating, but trust me-it can
get better. I know kids are different and situations vary, but I hope what I
wrote helps, and best of luck!

Lee

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/28/2000 3:28:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
naake1999@... writes:

> I feel hurt and abused. I feel like a terrible mom. I don't know whether to
> get strict with them or just back off, but I have had some pretty drastic
> thoughts.
>

Repeat after me: I am the mom, I am the mom, I am the mom.

{{{{{HUGS}}}}}}

Now, the trick is to REMEMBER that...you are the mom. That means you are an
adult, by definition, at least. <LOL>

I took a parenting class way back when my kid was about that age (almost 15
years ago!). The most profound thing I heard in the whole 6 or 8 week class
was a mom talking about how frustrated she would get with her 5 yr old when
he would totally refuse to be cooperative and was generally rude and
obnoxious and here she was trying her darnedest to be nice to the kid, (say
nothing of avoiding a felonious act, ie murder!). Anyway, she said she
finally figured it out: if she (or DH) reacted to the child in like manner
(yelling, being mad, etc.) there were suddenly twice as many 5 yr olds in the
house!

So, 'I'm the mom' means don't react like a 5/7/3 yr old, no matter how
tempting it may be. Stick to your guns as nicely as possible, but don't be a
doormat. (nothing new here, huh? You already know all this, don't you? We
all do and we all get frustrated in the heat of the battle. Don't let it
throw you.)

The second most important thing I learned from that parenting class is that
sooner or later your child is going to want something from you. If he/she
learns that they are NOT going to get what they want by being rude or
breaking the rules, you will eventually have a bargaining chip. Sometimes
you really have to wait and watch to find something that works. In this case
an example might be to refuse to get food while the child is demanding it.
(if that leaves you feeling guilty, have something available he can get for
himself...a cup of yogurt, slices of cheese, grapes, etc...and calmly say the
<fill in the blanks> are in the fridge, help yourself). Won't take long and
he'll get the idea.

Can't tackle every issue at the same time, though. Pick your battles if you
can.

Having given this very sage advice (LOL...it's really too bad you can't see
my own family to know how totally ridiculous it is for me to claim wisdom!),
first take a gut level assessment of things at home/in your life and kidlet's
lives. Is there any turmoil going on? Anyone teething? Schedule off? Mom
or dad busier than usual? Missing out on bedtime stories/prayers/bath or
other rituals? Getting enough sleep? Enough down time? Take the kids to
the park lately? Played Legos?

I think that most of the time when kids are acting up suddenly, it is either
a growing stage where they are trying to find their place in the world or
there is something out of place in their lives. My experience is that it can
often be something that seems to be nothing out of the ordinary to the
adults. But, think about it, we have so much more life experience. We know
from our own experience that teething, for instance, really doesn't go on
forever...the sore mouth will go away. But little people just don't have
that frame of reference to yet. They can't think past the moment.

Having said all this...the best advice I've seen yet was the one about the
bubble bath! Make sure you get some time to be an adult. A chance to have
conversations with other adults about adult things might be nice. How long
since you and DH have been on a date? (making an assumption here that you
are married, based on age of kids) When was the last time you went to a
grown up movie? (pokemon does NOT count!)

It'll pass. Good luck. I agree with the post that you are a good mom and it
is apparent because you care enough to seek solutions. I'm confident you'll
keep looking until you find something that fits. Sometimes that's the most
important skill...tenacity to hang tough and find answers or wait out the
storm. (of course, as soon as you figure out how to play the game, the kids
will change the rules and you get to start all over again! bg)

Eiraul

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/28/2000 5:00:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
sue.m.e@... writes:

>
> These are the men of tomorrow that you are raising, make them
> men to be proud of.
>

I agree with this! I have recently come to learn that this may be the
biggest mistake I made with my children. DH is gone a lot and I've had to
play single parent. It is not easy to stand up for yourself and I've had
trouble figuring out how.

Recently, DH was overseas for 20 months and when he returned he insisted on
doing things like opening my door, helping out of the car, little old
fashioned things. At first I tried to discourage him, thinking 'I'm
perfectly capable of opening my own doors, thank you!', 'and, this is slowing
us down!' But then I saw my youngest (10 at the time) start trying to beat
his dad to open my door or carry in my books from church. I realized then
that I had cheated my boys by not teaching them polite behavior.

Now when I come home from grocery shopping it is DH and DS job to bring in
the groceries. (I have FMS, so I'm really exhausted by the time I get home!)
I've learned to not even think twice about expecting it of them. DS has
learned it won't hurt him to bring in the groceries and help put them away.
bg

They aren't major brats (at least not usually...), but there still could have
been more manners taught. Especially for the oldest one. I'm seeing the
results now. He married at 19 (yikes!) and they had a surprise baby a year
and half later (when they got married they were told she couldn't have
children, so it was a BIG surprise!!). So, he's had a lot of adjustments to
make. He just turned 22 and she is 20. They lived with us the last 9 months
or so and I could really see where he hadn't learned that it pays off to be
nice.

It was really stressful for them living with us (900 sq foot duplex, one
bath, 4 adults, one 11 yr old, the toddler, 2 dogs...you get the picture).
But, I'm grateful that I had the chance to help retrain his thinking in this
area. At first when his dear wife would throw a tantrum (and believe me, I
mean tantrum! Only child, stubborn, spoiled and young. but I'm not her
mummy)...anyway, when she would get mad, he would refuse to talk to her until
she straightened up; refuse to hear that she'd had a bad day with the baby or
was frustrated because she was living with her in-laws, that sort of thing.
(I'm a nice person, but what young wife wants to live with her
mother-in-law?!)

I tried explaining to him that it often pays off to be nice, hug her, listen
to her feelings rather than concentrate on the actual words. Finding actual
solutions could wait until after she knew she'd been heard. He simply didn't
get it. Couldn't see past himself.

One night she had an especially bad day with teething baby and feeling all
cooped up. DS was refusing to talk/listen to her and she was out in the car
crying (only place for her to be alone...she doesn't drive so she couldn't
even take herself somewhere else!). I took the baby from him, turned off the
TV and told him to go out and talk to his wife.

He balked; saying she was just throwing a tantrum. I told him the baby had
been fussy all day, he'd been at work and interacting with other people while
she was stuck here with me and the baby all day...GO TALK TO YOUR WIFE. It
worked. He went out and got in the car. No idea what they talked about, but
at least he wasn't ignoring her. About 10 minutes later I stuck my head in
the car, gave them $10 and told him to take his wife for pizza. G'ma would
give the baby a bath and put her to bed for the night. (DIL actually hugged
me for it the next day! We are very short on funds, but that was probably
the best $10 I ever spent. LOL)

It worked!! Finally, he was able to see that it pays off to be nice. Since
then I've caught him several times actually listening to wifey and hearing
she is having a bad day. He even helps her find solutions rather than
getting into a blame game. They are now in their own apartment and working
together better than I've seen before.

(Gosh! I'm opinionated tonight! sorry)

Anyway, I agree with this point. Don't let them abuse you.

FWIW,
Eiraul

Sue

> Not to trivialize the issue of unruly
> children but perhaps a "savage seven" year old does not neccessarily
> become a sociopath.
> Sonia in Saskatoon

I agre Sonia, maybe the difference lies in whether the savage
behaviour is accepted, or stopped. Maybe it is the cases where it
is enforced by the Mother giving in to the unacceptable actions that
the child then goes on to becoming a sociopath.

I've seen plenty of terrible 7 year olds turn out fine, that was what I
was trying to get across, Mothers can and do make a huge
difference. To me Annette seems to be very concerned about the
behaviour of her boys and wants to stop it... with that attitude I'm
certain that she will suceed.

Two particular boys who I watched from yr 1 when they were in my
kids' classes were terrible sevens, one had a Mother who would
yell at and hit her son for the slightest infraction, no matter if he
was trying to be good... so he had no reason to try, he was in
prison for assault before he got to 18. Another boy's Mom would
talk softly to the boy and make all sorts of weak excuses for his
bad behaviour, last thing I heard about him he was in prison too.
There were plenty of other kids who were just as "bad" as these
two, but their Mothers handled the situation differently.... not overly
strict but not too soft.

It's not too hard to find the middle road, the most important thing is
not only caring for your kids but caring for yourself as well.



Sue

The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm

"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi

D Klement

Annette Naake wrote:
>
> HELP!

Ok I'm going to suggest a couple of things that have worked for me.

#1 the video " 1, 2, 3 Magic " is a method of how to deal with kid's
inappropriate behaviour. It is a time out method but it's a time out
with a difference.
It is humane to both the parent and the child. I personally, didn't find
it's methods coercive. It gives the kids a chance to act appropriately
before the *time out*. It gives the parents a way to deal with the
behaviour without resorting to a punishment as opposed to discipline.
You do have to be consistent and follow through with the method for it
to be effective. I have three kids and found it worked for all three
individuals.

#2 severely limit TV.
I've found that the majority of rotten behaviour my kids learned was
from TV as opposed to peers. I'm careful about who my kids are allowed
to hang out with and limit time with kids I'm not crazy about (I'd like
my kids to learn how to pick their friends for their good qualities so
they need to be exposed, to a degree, to kids *I* would consider
undesirable).

When I decided to have the TV off for almost the entire day, every day
my kids turned into nice children after about 2 weeks kids I could live
with who didn't bully me and scream insults at each other and the level
of physical confrontations between them diminished significantly (We
still have the TV off for most of the day ).

Well you got about a $1.50's worth [ Canadian $$$ ;-) ], instead of the
2 cents I intended.

Buzz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Klement Family "Education is what survives when
Darryl, Debbie, what has been learned has been
Kathleen, Nathan & forgotten"
Samantha B.F. Skinner in "New Scientist".
e-mail- klement@...
Canadian homeschool page: http:\\www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/
Ont. Federation of Teaching Parents: http:\\www.flora.org/oftp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[email protected]

Hi Annette, I have 2 sons, too. One will soon be 6, one will be 4 in a few
months. My oldest has tried some sassiness, too. When it occurs, I stop
whatever it is I am doing, to help stress my seriousness, look him in the
eye, and point to "the time- out " chair. If I start walking toward him as I
say, "in the chair", he moves there very quickly.Once in the chair I tell him
very firmly that I do NOT tolerate any smart-mouthed talk, and if he
chooses to speak rudely and ugly to me, then he is also choosing to sit by
himself, because I am not going to listen to it. It doesn't take too long
for him to change his attitude, and he usually apologizes soon after.
Sometimes he says, "I'll be good now, can I get down?" Depending on the
seriousness of the incident, I may deny him some tv time, or playing with a
particular toy, or friend for a while. This does not make him happy, but
my point to him is that he needs to choose polite behavior first, because it
is the right thing to do, instead of thinking that if he says what he thinks
I want to hear, then he will basically get off scot free. Yesterday, he
was rushing around wanting to run out the door because a neighbor had come
over. I told him that I wanted him to put some shoes on first. He acted
like he did not hear me, and opened the door, so I repeated it. He
responded with rolling his eyes, and saying "OK! OK! OK!" as if I had nagged
him endlessly-, and began to stomp off down to his room. Immediately I told
him that he was "in the chair", and in a huff he sat down. After a few mins.
he asked if he could get down. I told him all that he had to do in the first
place was just nicely say "ok", and go put his shoes on, but he looked at me
and shook his head no. So, I told him that he could just sit there longer.
He sat there quietly and much more calmly. After a few mins longer, he
again asked to get down. I said that he could. On his own, he went and put
on his shoes, and came back and apologized for his behavior. We hugged and
he went on out to play. Overall, I think kids get to where they test and
retest our rules, and that it really is reassuring to them to know their
parents are going to stand firm. I think kids will respect us more in the
long run. I notice that my kids are influenced by the behaviors of their
neighbor friends, too, and that they "try on" some of those behaviors just to
see what the response is. So, we talk a lot about manners, and polite
behavior, playing nicely, etc... and that if he sees others doing things they
should not do, than I expect him to do the right thing, and not just to go
along. It is something to be talked about very often, as I want to really
reinforce respecting others, and following our family rules. Some days it
can feel like you've been in combat, but down the road we will know that all
the hard work has paid off. Take care, keep your chin up, and stand firm.
:) ~Karen

M & J Welch

This summer I've been experimenting with unschooling. In the fall we plan
to jump in feet first. :-) I have some plans to fix up our house, and would
like opinions on how I can work "lessons"/conscious learning into the
experience.

We will be repainting the entire inside of my main floor-kitchen,
livingroom, master bedroom. We plan on doing a mural on the ceilings, first
removing the drop ceiling in the livingroom and replastering the surface.

Art is easy-I can pull out pictures of ancient murals to get ideas. We can
also have fun with painting techniques, color spectrum and such like. But
what about math and language arts attuned to a 7 year old?

Thanks

Lee

aworthen

There has been some great advice
> shared and many intelligent points have been made worthy of
> consideration, but perhaps some of this challenge could literally be
> attributed to "an age thing" or a "phase". "Terrible Twos", "Fiercesome
> Fours", "Savage Sevens"???

I have to say that I personally hate these generalizations. My dd #1 was a
peach at 2 and h*ll at three, dd #2 fine 'til 4 then it became a downhill
battle, dd # 1 a little terror (very high needs, screamer since day 1).
Every child is different and they all go through tough stages at different
ages. Oh well, I guess I'm in the minority on this, because people are
making big bucks on books about how terrible a two year old is, how
ferocious a four year old is, etc.
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Sonia Ulan <sulan@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2000 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] sassy kids


>
> I learned something from you today, Eiraul! Some excellent
> advice/ideas!
>
> I was going to add a little something for Annette myself...My daughter
> just turned 8 years of age 2 weeks ago. Believe me, almost every day of
> this past (her 7th) year was a battle.Not to trivialize the issue of
unruly
> children but perhaps a "savage seven" year old does not neccessarily
> become a sociopath. My daughter has already shown MAJOR improvement in
> recent weeks!
>
> Sonia in Saskatoon
>
>
> braunville@... wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 7/28/2000 3:28:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > naake1999@... writes:
> >
> > > I feel hurt and abused. I feel like a terrible mom. I don't know
whether to
> > > get strict with them or just back off, but I have had some pretty
drastic
> > > thoughts.
> > >
> >
> > Repeat after me: I am the mom, I am the mom, I am the mom.
> >
> > {{{{{HUGS}}}}}}
> >
> > Now, the trick is to REMEMBER that...you are the mom. That means you
are an
> > adult, by definition, at least. <LOL>
> >
> > I took a parenting class way back when my kid was about that age (almost
15
> > years ago!). The most profound thing I heard in the whole 6 or 8 week
class
> > was a mom talking about how frustrated she would get with her 5 yr old
when
> > he would totally refuse to be cooperative and was generally rude and
> > obnoxious and here she was trying her darnedest to be nice to the kid,
(say
> > nothing of avoiding a felonious act, ie murder!). Anyway, she said she
> > finally figured it out: if she (or DH) reacted to the child in like
manner
> > (yelling, being mad, etc.) there were suddenly twice as many 5 yr olds
in the
> > house!
> >
> > So, 'I'm the mom' means don't react like a 5/7/3 yr old, no matter how
> > tempting it may be. Stick to your guns as nicely as possible, but don't
be a
> > doormat. (nothing new here, huh? You already know all this, don't you?
We
> > all do and we all get frustrated in the heat of the battle. Don't let
it
> > throw you.)
> >
> > The second most important thing I learned from that parenting class is
that
> > sooner or later your child is going to want something from you. If
he/she
> > learns that they are NOT going to get what they want by being rude or
> > breaking the rules, you will eventually have a bargaining chip.
Sometimes
> > you really have to wait and watch to find something that works. In this
case
> > an example might be to refuse to get food while the child is demanding
it.
> > (if that leaves you feeling guilty, have something available he can get
for
> > himself...a cup of yogurt, slices of cheese, grapes, etc...and calmly
say the
> > <fill in the blanks> are in the fridge, help yourself). Won't take long
and
> > he'll get the idea.
> >
> > Can't tackle every issue at the same time, though. Pick your battles if
you
> > can.
> >
> > Having given this very sage advice (LOL...it's really too bad you can't
see
> > my own family to know how totally ridiculous it is for me to claim
wisdom!),
> > first take a gut level assessment of things at home/in your life and
kidlet's
> > lives. Is there any turmoil going on? Anyone teething? Schedule off?
Mom
> > or dad busier than usual? Missing out on bedtime stories/prayers/bath
or
> > other rituals? Getting enough sleep? Enough down time? Take the kids
to
> > the park lately? Played Legos?
> >
> > I think that most of the time when kids are acting up suddenly, it is
either
> > a growing stage where they are trying to find their place in the world
or
> > there is something out of place in their lives. My experience is that
it can
> > often be something that seems to be nothing out of the ordinary to the
> > adults. But, think about it, we have so much more life experience. We
know
> > from our own experience that teething, for instance, really doesn't go
on
> > forever...the sore mouth will go away. But little people just don't
have
> > that frame of reference to yet. They can't think past the moment.
> >
> > Having said all this...the best advice I've seen yet was the one about
the
> > bubble bath! Make sure you get some time to be an adult. A chance to
have
> > conversations with other adults about adult things might be nice. How
long
> > since you and DH have been on a date? (making an assumption here that
you
> > are married, based on age of kids) When was the last time you went to a
> > grown up movie? (pokemon does NOT count!)
> >
> > It'll pass. Good luck. I agree with the post that you are a good mom
and it
> > is apparent because you care enough to seek solutions. I'm confident
you'll
> > keep looking until you find something that fits. Sometimes that's the
most
> > important skill...tenacity to hang tough and find answers or wait out
the
> > storm. (of course, as soon as you figure out how to play the game, the
kids
> > will change the rules and you get to start all over again! bg)
> >
> > Eiraul
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > Addresses:
> > Post message: [email protected]
> > Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> > List owner: [email protected]
> > List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

dawn

it seems that many here are bothered by sassy behavior. i know i am. I
also know that my children typically don't sass anyone but me and my
husband, so imo I've been "successful" in teaching htem that it is an
inappropriate behavior. I also know that most of their interactions with
me aren't sassy (although there are days....) and most of the time it's
related to other things going on with them....hungry, tired, lonely,
angry, frustrated...and it's mostly impulse control on their part, because
believe me, I really feel like being sassy with people quite
frequently....like today when my bil was annoying me....but I've learned
control.

Now, my question is, why does this bother us so much? I suspect it is
because so many of us were not validated as children ourselves so we are
unable to see sassiness as a symptom and not as the problem itself. And
my second question is why do we feel a need to punish our children for
being sassy (because let's face it, no matter how much we warn, count and
be calm about taking away the nintendo, it's not a true consequence of
their sassiness--it's a punishment)? I know I do. I want to say, "That's
it! No Pokemon movie because I'm tired of your snapping at me". But what
does that teach my son? When people annoy him through their behaior to
make them miserable. It's no different than when my mother wouldn't
"hear" me when I was whining as a child. "I can't hear you when you use
that tone." Uh, mom? If you know what tone I'm using, then you can hear
me, %^%$##! Oh wait, that's sassy;)

So, maybe I want to react in these ways because that is how I was treated?
I would never treat my husband that way on the occassions he gest "sassy"
and I know that the "words" he and I had yesterday in a bad moment would
qualify as "sassy" but I'd just get angrier if he took away my email
privileges for a day or didn't let me go to the fair this week...instead,
what I appreciate when I'm out of sorts and being disrespectful myself is
kindness and gentleness and quality attention. Why then do we think
children deserve less?

I *wasn't* allowed to sass at all when I was a child. And that behavior,
along with some others, are real triggers for me as an adult. They can
j8ust send me off the deep end. And I don't like that feeling. So, I try
to (although I'm frequently unsuccessful) to get at the underlying root
and treat my children as I'd like to be treated in the same situation,
which means that a lot of the time, I'm empathizing with them, validating
their feelings, and trying to avoid snapping back at them instead of
trying to change their behavior. And when I'm successful at this, I see
less sassiness, although it isn't a quick fix at all. It takes time.



dawn h-s

" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham

aworthen

HI Dawn,
you bring up some great points. I think that sassiness upsets me so much
because I don't like being talked to in a poor manner by anyone, be they 4
or 40. It is disrespectful. Not disrespect to elders, just of peoples
feelings in general. I punish for it for the same reason. Iwould like to be
able to punish everyone who talks to me this way, but obviously this is not
possible. The least I can do is teach my kids that this behavior is not
right and hope they don't grow up to be disrespectful adults. I must say on
the husband issue that I do indeed "punish" my husband when he talks to me
in a disrespectful manner. I may not take away his car or his computer, but
I punish him in other ways. I will not continue a conversation with him
until his tone changes, I go out and spend lots of money :) etc. Childish?
maybe, but no more so than talking poorly to me in the first place. I really
respect the fact that you try in the moment to validate your children's
feelings and I feel this is important, but I also think it's impotant to let
a 3 yo that he cannot call me a butthead. He must learn that this is
disrespectful and if not taking him to see Pokemon is the way to drive this
home then so be it.
amy

----- Original Message -----
From: dawn <dawn@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] sassy kids


> it seems that many here are bothered by sassy behavior. i know i am. I
> also know that my children typically don't sass anyone but me and my
> husband, so imo I've been "successful" in teaching htem that it is an
> inappropriate behavior. I also know that most of their interactions with
> me aren't sassy (although there are days....) and most of the time it's
> related to other things going on with them....hungry, tired, lonely,
> angry, frustrated...and it's mostly impulse control on their part, because
> believe me, I really feel like being sassy with people quite
> frequently....like today when my bil was annoying me....but I've learned
> control.
>
> Now, my question is, why does this bother us so much? I suspect it is
> because so many of us were not validated as children ourselves so we are
> unable to see sassiness as a symptom and not as the problem itself. And
> my second question is why do we feel a need to punish our children for
> being sassy (because let's face it, no matter how much we warn, count and
> be calm about taking away the nintendo, it's not a true consequence of
> their sassiness--it's a punishment)? I know I do. I want to say, "That's
> it! No Pokemon movie because I'm tired of your snapping at me". But what
> does that teach my son? When people annoy him through their behaior to
> make them miserable. It's no different than when my mother wouldn't
> "hear" me when I was whining as a child. "I can't hear you when you use
> that tone." Uh, mom? If you know what tone I'm using, then you can hear
> me, %^%$##! Oh wait, that's sassy;)
>
> So, maybe I want to react in these ways because that is how I was treated?
> I would never treat my husband that way on the occassions he gest "sassy"
> and I know that the "words" he and I had yesterday in a bad moment would
> qualify as "sassy" but I'd just get angrier if he took away my email
> privileges for a day or didn't let me go to the fair this week...instead,
> what I appreciate when I'm out of sorts and being disrespectful myself is
> kindness and gentleness and quality attention. Why then do we think
> children deserve less?
>
> I *wasn't* allowed to sass at all when I was a child. And that behavior,
> along with some others, are real triggers for me as an adult. They can
> j8ust send me off the deep end. And I don't like that feeling. So, I try
> to (although I'm frequently unsuccessful) to get at the underlying root
> and treat my children as I'd like to be treated in the same situation,
> which means that a lot of the time, I'm empathizing with them, validating
> their feelings, and trying to avoid snapping back at them instead of
> trying to change their behavior. And when I'm successful at this, I see
> less sassiness, although it isn't a quick fix at all. It takes time.
>
>
>
> dawn h-s
>
> " "I am a woman here on planet Earth
> I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
> No one, no body, no powers that be
> Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
> --Ruth Pelham
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

Tracy Oldfield

Hmmm. for me, planning 'lessons' out of what we're doing misses
the point of unschooling. There's no need to think in terms of 'art,'
or 'maths,' or 'language arts,' it's all life. The only time I would
think about subjects is when it's necessary to think in
'educationese' if one is going to be inspected by some 'official,' (as
someone on another list puts it, ppimps' (Persons Paid to Invade
My Privacy) rather than 'professionals' in some cases) If you do
need to create a log with educationese-type language, well that
could be your language arts lesson! But for maths, with painting,
what about the measuring of the walls, the calculating the required
amount of paint, the required proportion of ingredients to mix for
plastering... if you intend to use natural paints, there's a history
lesson in there, and geology...

HTH
Tracy

On 29 Jul 2000, at 11:03, M & J Welch wrote:

This summer I've been experimenting with unschooling.
In the fall we plan
to jump in feet first. :-) I have some plans to fix up
our house, and would
like opinions on how I can work "lessons"/conscious
learning into the
experience.

We will be repainting the entire inside of my main
floor-kitchen,
livingroom, master bedroom. We plan on doing a mural on
the ceilings, first
removing the drop ceiling in the livingroom and
replastering the surface.

Art is easy-I can pull out pictures of ancient murals
to get ideas. We can
also have fun with painting techniques, color spectrum
and such like. But
what about math and language arts attuned to a 7 year
old?

Thanks

Lee

Tracy Oldfield

No, Amy, you're not in a minority... yes, there are various stages
of development which are difficult for us all to overcome, but I
don't think it's helpful to put anyone in a pigeonhole, in similar
ways to the way diagnosing certain conditions can make the
sufferer 'become' the condition, in their and others' eyes. I'm not
denying the problems, just that as Faber and Mazlish say 'labelling
disables.' I was concerned also about someone's description of a
child saying he would 'be good...' I wouldn't want my children to
identify themselves as 'good' or 'naughty.' I would hope that they
see themselves as 'Abi' and 'Heather,' and that they know it's
their behaviour, and not themsleves, that's 'good' or 'bad.'

Sorry to sound off, but this is something that's important to me,
and annoys me when folk (my mum and my in-laws) talk to my
kids like this.

Tracy


On 29 Jul 2000, at 18:22, aworthen wrote:

 There has been some great advice
> shared and many intelligent points have been made
worthy of
> consideration, but perhaps some of this challenge
could literally be
> attributed to "an age thing" or a "phase". "Terrible
Twos", "Fiercesome
> Fours", "Savage Sevens"???

I have to say that I personally hate these
generalizations.

aworthen

Hi Tracy,
I understand your need to sound off on this topic, Labeling our children can
be so detrimental to them. I have yet to read siblings without rivalry or
other books by the authors, but after the references you made (Ithimk there
was one yesterday too?), I'm going to have to. This seems so much more
appropriate than books like "The Difficult Child"
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Oldfield <tracy.oldfield@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] sassy kids


> No, Amy, you're not in a minority... yes, there are various stages
> of development which are difficult for us all to overcome, but I
> don't think it's helpful to put anyone in a pigeonhole, in similar
> ways to the way diagnosing certain conditions can make the
> sufferer 'become' the condition, in their and others' eyes. I'm not
> denying the problems, just that as Faber and Mazlish say 'labelling
> disables.' I was concerned also about someone's description of a
> child saying he would 'be good...' I wouldn't want my children to
> identify themselves as 'good' or 'naughty.' I would hope that they
> see themselves as 'Abi' and 'Heather,' and that they know it's
> their behaviour, and not themsleves, that's 'good' or 'bad.'
>
> Sorry to sound off, but this is something that's important to me,
> and annoys me when folk (my mum and my in-laws) talk to my
> kids like this.
>
> Tracy
>
>
> On 29 Jul 2000, at 18:22, aworthen wrote:
>
>  There has been some great advice
> > shared and many intelligent points have been made
> worthy of
> > consideration, but perhaps some of this challenge
> could literally be
> > attributed to "an age thing" or a "phase". "Terrible
> Twos", "Fiercesome
> > Fours", "Savage Sevens"???
> 
> I have to say that I personally hate these
> generalizations.
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

Tracy Oldfield

Yes, this is just how I feel, except that it's hard for me to
remember to look at it from this perspective. Thanks for the kick
up the bum, dawn :-)

Tracy

On 29 Jul 2000, at 17:25, dawn wrote:

Now, my question is, why does this bother us so much?
I suspect it is
because so many of us were not validated as children
ourselves so we are
unable to see sassiness as a symptom and not as the
problem itself. And
my second question is why do we feel a need to punish
our children for
being sassy (because let's face it, no matter how much
we warn, count and
be calm about taking away the nintendo, it's not a true
consequence of
their sassiness--it's a punishment)? I know I do. I
want to say, "That's
it! No Pokemon movie because I'm tired of your
snapping at me". But what
does that teach my son? When people annoy him through
their behaior to
make them miserable.

[email protected]

I would also like to suggest something...

First let me introduce myself, my name is Amy and I am the proud mom of one
son, 7 1/2 yo. I homeschool my son, go to college (working on Elementary
Education/Early Childhood degree), lead a 4-H group, and have started a
homeschool support group.

I have had problems with my son in the past. He was openly hostile, would
seemingly do things he knew were wrong while looking me right in the eye, and
the list goes on. I was at my wits end! I heard everything from "he's just
doing normal boy things" to "you should think about putting him on Ritalin".
He was losing friends, and was not always welcome at everyone's home.

One day while I was in the book store, I came across this book called "Living
with the Active/Alert Child" by Linda S. Budd, Ph.D. The first sentence, in
the first chapter said "did you put on your running shoes when your child was
born, and have worn out several pairs since?" This sentence stopped me dead
in my tracks and I thought "yeah! yeah, I have!" This book went on to
describe a child who either required little sleep, or had a hard time falling
asleep. A child who seem to get more active or frantic as the day wore on,
and much more. Well, I bought that book and it has saved our lives! My
child is now cooperating, and becoming better and better at getting along
with others. I sometimes feel so bad, because I did not understand him, and
literally took the wrong road as far as discipline, but now things are so
much better.

There are 11 traits to an active/alert child:

1. Active
2. Alert
3. Bright
4. Controlling
5. Fearful
6. Intense
7. Attention-hungry
8. Trouble getting along with others
9. Fluctuating self-esteem
10. Performers
11. Empathic ability

I highly recommend this book to anyone who thinks that this profile fits
their child. I was an active/alert child myself. I have also begun to
understand why some things are the way they are in my life. I don't want you
to think that I am selling this book or anything, you can get it from your
local book store, or online, I just know what a difference it has made for
my family, and most importantly for my son. There is also a web site
dedicated to this type of child :
http://www.specialchild.com/bbs3/messages/322.html

Please feel free to email me privately if you wish to discuss this further.

Best wishes,
Amy Aponte

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/29/2000 5:26:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dawn@...
writes:

> but I'd just get angrier if he took away my email
> privileges for a day or didn't let me go to the fair this week...instead,
> what I appreciate when I'm out of sorts and being disrespectful myself is
> kindness and gentleness and quality attention. Why then do we think
> children deserve less?
>
> I *wasn't* allowed to sass at all when I was a child. And that behavior,
> along with some others, are real triggers for me as an adult. They can
> j8ust send me off the deep end. And I don't like that feeling. So, I try
> to (although I'm frequently unsuccessful) to get at the underlying root
> and treat my children as I'd like to be treated in the same situation,
> which means that a lot of the time, I'm empathizing with them, validating
> their feelings, and trying to avoid snapping back at them instead of
> trying to change their behavior. And when I'm successful at this, I see
> less sassiness, although it isn't a quick fix at all. It takes time.
>
>
>
> dawn h-s
>

good for you! And I think you've got a really good point here. If children
know we respect them and their needs, they are much more likely to respect
other people and their needs. Too often children are seen as a nuisance
rather than a treasure (IMHO). How often do we hear from other parents 'oh,
I could never stand to have my child at home all day. How do you do you do
that?'

Of course, if I had to give only one reason I homeschool this would be it...I
like my kids and I'm selfish enough to want them around all the time.

This isn't an answer to why it sets parents off...it does seem to be a rather
universal reaction (or at least almost universal). To me that begs the
question what is 'sass'? I simply won't tolerate rudeness in my home. I
don't give rudeness and I won't allow anyone else to be rude either. Any
family member is free to speak their honest opinion and let us know what's
going on or problems they may have. Everyone has had to learn how to state
their opinion in polite ways. Sad to admit it, but mom had to be the first
to learn! (I used to be a screamer...hated what it did to me and my family.
Learned not to do that AND not to just hold in negative feelings. Best thing
I ever learned and I have worked to pass it on to my family.)

I try to go with natural consequences. I don't think some things should wait
long enough for natural consequences to make a difference. Manners can be
one of those things. If a child takes years 'learning' that no one likes
him, he may never figure out that it's because he is rude. In that case he's
missed the lesson, learned negative thinking and I've allowed a lot of harm
to come to this little person I'm responsible to/for.

My 2 cents worth,
Eiraul

Tracy Oldfield

"Toddler Taming" is top of my hate-list for book titles <grin>

Tracy

On 29 Jul 2000, at 21:35, aworthen wrote:

Hi Tracy,
I understand your need to sound off on this topic,
Labeling our children can
be so detrimental to them. I have yet to read siblings
without rivalry or
other books by the authors, but after the references
you made (Ithimk there
was one yesterday too?), I'm going to have to. This
seems so much more
appropriate than books like "The Difficult Child"
Amy

Cathie _

>my second question is why do we feel a need to punish our children for
>being sassy (because let's face it, no matter how much we warn, count and
>be calm about taking away the nintendo, it's not a true consequence of
>their sassiness--it's a punishment)?


Yes, I am bothered by sassy behavior whether it is towards me or anyone
else. I will not tolerate being spoken to in a disrestectful manner by my
children. I think that the natural consequence of this behavior is me
getting really p****d off. If, then, I do not want to spend the money I have
worked extremely hard for to take the rude child to the new Pokemon movie,
but to instead spend it on myself, or stay home and relax in front of a
movie I want to see instead of having the Nintendo on, that is a very
natural and direct consequence. If I am treated with love and respect for my
feelings, then I will return it by sharing my money and giving up my time at
home to run people all over town. If my children do not appreciate all I do
for them, then I won't do it. What could be a more natural consequence?

Cathie
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Sue

On 29 Jul 2000, at 17:25, dawn wrote:

> it seems that many here are bothered by sassy behavior.

I am not particularly bothered by sassy behaviour, I have always
encouraged my children to speak their minds, even if what is
coming out of their mouths may be insulting to me. If what they
are saying is something that they see as being truthful, then they
can say whatever is on their mind.

That doesn't mean that I have to like what they are saying, however
if I don't like it, maybe I need to listen carefully to try to understand
where they are coming from.

However if they were to say exactly the same thing in a loud or
aggressive manner then I wouldn't hear it, I would tell them to come
back to me when they could talk in civil tones. This is the big
difference between being rude and being a little sassy, and I'm sure
that was what started this subject, a Mother who thought her kids
had become rude, she was bothered by it enough to bring it up to
this group.

I guess most of us here enjoy our children's company otherwise
they would probably be in school, and as children can be brutally
honest a lot of the time and we have probably all had to face some
candid facts about ourselves seen through our children's eyes.
This is a good thing, if they see that we can change our bad habits
through listening to their input then they are more likely to be able
to change some of their behaviours that we find unacceptable.

We are all human beings, all imperfect and if we allow our children
to see that we are imperfect just like them it makes their lives so
much easier, and makes them feel better about their own
imperfections, knowing that we don't expect perfection from anyone.




Sue

The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm

"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi

Sue

On 29 Jul 2000, at 23:12, AmyKCA@... wrote:

> 1. Active
> 2. Alert
> 3. Bright
> 4. Controlling
> 5. Fearful
> 6. Intense
> 7. Attention-hungry
> 8. Trouble getting along with others
> 9. Fluctuating self-esteem
> 10. Performers
> 11. Empathic ability

# 11 is a big cause of problems, this empathy in someone so
young often makes the child mis-read signals. I had major
problems with my second son, he fit all of the above 11 signs, I
tried so many ways to find our why he could be such a problem
child to me and resorted to seeing a child guidance officer,
fortunatley he was an astute family man who cared for children and
saw right away where the problem lay.

Whenever I was upset or bothered in the slightest by anything at all
Aaron would pick up on my feelings, but being so young couldn't
figure out where my bad feelings were coming from. Young
children are so egotistical that in one so young and so empathic if
he saw that his Mother was hurting, then he believed that he must
be the cause.

So at the ripe old age of 2 1/2 the key to a problem that I seemed
to have had all of his life was found. When I was equipped with
this knowledge I was able to solve the problem, if I was feeling low
in any way I had to let Aaron know that it wasn't him, that maybe I
was feeling a little sick or tired or mad because the house was a
mess, not mad at him. This solved our problems, once he knew
that all my feelings were not aimed at him he became a different
child, he was helpful and would comfort me when I was suffering
from any low feelings.



Sue

The Winona Farm in Minnesota Welcomes Unschoolers All Year Round
My website: http://members.xoom.com/sue_m_e
Farm website: http://members.xoom.com/winfarm/
Farm newsletter: http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Winonafarm

"To believe in something, and not to live it,
is to be dishonest." -Mahatma Gandhi

Corallyn

 
----- Original Message -----
From: Sue
It's not too hard to find the middle road, the most important thing is
not only caring for your kids but caring for yourself as well.
I have come to realize that children are no different from adults when it comes to how they want to be treated. Think about it. When you make a mistake and someone comes up to you and starts hitting you or yelling at you or screaming at you how do you feel/like it. When it comes to disaplining my 3.5 and 5.5yo I try to keep this in mind. However, I also don't let them go on making the same mistake. I will sit down with them at first and explain that their behavior is inapproriate and why and that I don't want to see/hear it again. The next time it happens I will repeat the previous discussion and tell them what will happen if it they continue with the behaviour. If it continues, and I usually give thema  few mor chances of reminding depending on the child and situation, then they will receive something strict like having a toy or  activity removed. Eventually, I end up sending them to their room. and Very few times I have done to the child what it was that they did to the other person. I did this the other  day with 5.5yo when he hit his 3.5yo sister with a stick that 1" in diamiter and 4' long. Hitting with sticks is absolutely not allowed and he knows this and it is something that he repeats periodicly. I had DD get me the stick he hit her with and then used it to spank his hiney. I didn't hit him as hard as I thought he should have been because of the size of the stick but after I used the stick I used my bare hand abt3 times so he did feel that. Then I sent him to his room. I also told him that if it happens again I will get a stick myself and it will be tiny round one that will hurt his hiney. That is the first time I have used anything other than my hand to spank...and I only use spanking as a last resort. MIL and SIL tell me all the time that I am doing a good job with them because when the kids spend time over there they are always very well behaved and polite. They say that is the true test...how they behave when mom and dad are not around.   Anyway, hope this helps. Corallyn.