Sylvie Martin

Unschooling is becoming known to some families in France because of
the work of Sylvie Martin-Rodriguez (who has been on this list
before, as eliott2@...) and
Catherine Dumonteil Kremer, who does a newsletter. You can see some
of their writings (and some are translations of English articles)
here: http://www.webzinemaker.com/louves-online/

****************************** Thank you Sandra. I'm still here, always.. I read, I improve myself. If I couldn't read the unschooling lists.. pfff... it could be so difficult sometimes, in this country.

I wanted to say that our website "louves-online" is with Jeanine Barbé, who is on this list too, not with Catherine. Catherine has a blog for non violent education.

Here, in France, yesterday, there was an unschooling family, who was at the court, because of the unschooling. They didn't hide, one of their children doesn't read at nine.. There is a trial (I'm not sure about the good words)...

pfff.. I wish I could leave in an other country...

Thanks to everyone on the unschooling lists, because reading all of you changed our lives.

I wish to contribute more but I just can learn everyday from your posts..


Sylvie (eliott le Magicien 97 - Tom le Héros 99 - Lilou la fée 02)
http://www.webzinemaker.com/louves-online/
www.yourtes-tipis.com
www.sculpture-rod.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 17, 2006, at 1:52 AM, Sylvie Martin wrote:

> I wanted to say that our website "louves-online" is with Jeanine
> Barbé, who is on this list too, not with Catherine.


I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to slight Jeanine, who has translated
some of the articles too. There are articles there by Danielle
Conger and Anne Ohman and me.

I'm also sorry to hear someone had legal trouble. Unschooling isn't
flat out legal at all, here or anywhere, meaning you can't just say
"We're unschoolers so we don't have to follow your laws."
Unschoolers need to understand homeschooling, unschooling and
learning enough to speak of it in terms of whatever laws are in
effect where they are. That's why it is important at some level to
be analytical about what your kids are learning and how, but that
doesn't mean we have to tell the kids "this was science and math," it
just means the parents need to try to be aware of it.

There have been a couple of discussions in which people said strewing
was manipulative and sneaky. I don't see it that way at all. If I
know what kinds of things my children could use being exposed to to
be more well rounded, or to "fill in gaps" in what they know, or to
take them to another level of understanding, bringing those things up
in physical or conversational ways is no more "manipulative" than
bringing more fruit into the house if there hasn't been much fruit
consumption lately, or bringing them bottles of water on hot summer
days. I don't need to force them to eat oranges or drink water, but
I can notice it might be good for them and make it appealing.

Some people say "We're not homeschooling, we're unschooling," but if
legally one's choices are school enrollment or homeschooling, at that
point, in that light, they are either homeschooling or truant.
Unschooling isn't *just* a method of homeschooling when people change
their entire parenting philosophies to make it work so deeply, but it
is a method of homeschooling when they understand it as an
alternative to school. They need to be actively involved in things
that bring their children into the world, and the world into their
children. The best unschoolers are doing more with and for their
children than school-at-home families are. Unschooling parents need
to understand MORE about how learning works and keep their family
lives rich.

Sandra

Sylvie Martin

I'm also sorry to hear someone had legal trouble. Unschooling isn't
flat out legal at all, here or anywhere, meaning you can't just say
"We're unschoolers so we don't have to follow your laws."
Unschoolers need to understand homeschooling, unschooling and
learning enough to speak of it in terms of whatever laws are in
effect where they are.
******************** Yes, I'm not sure I understand everything you wanted to say.

When I read the unschooling lists, I see lot of children who don't read at 9 or 10, and I thought it was legal in the US ?

Here it's not at all. Children can show lot of things they know to the inspectors, they can have interests in everything, they can be happy, joyfull, everything, if they don't know how to read at 7 or 8, it's simply not possible.

I thought in several states, you can wait for your children being ready, without pressure ?

And as you said,here, for the moment, it's either "homeschooling" or "truant"..

For the moment, I found the solution for continue our unschooling lives, but I don't know until when...


Sylvie (eliott le Magicien 97 - Tom le Héros 99 - Lilou la fée 02)
http://www.webzinemaker.com/louves-online/
www.yourtes-tipis.com et www.sculpture-rod.com
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/ressourcesparentsjuraetsuisse/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 17, 2006, at 4:40 AM, Sylvie Martin wrote:

> When I read the unschooling lists, I see lot of children who don't
> read at 9 or 10, and I thought it was legal in the US ?


Well it's not illegal not to read; lots of kids that age aren't
reading well in school, and they have the report cards full of "F"
and "D" (or the alternate equivalents) to prove it, but the schools
blame the kids for not working hard, paying attention, etc.

What is illegal, in some states (our laws aren't federal/national,
but are state to state, and I think in Canada are province by
province), is not even starting to teach the kids to read. But when
a parent really understands unschooling and natural learning, or even
knows what schools call "reading readiness," they can see that other
things are parts of learning to read too. Sequencing (readily
available in storytelling, discussing movie plots, playing games) and
knowing letters' names and sounds (which can happen with playing
around, and doesn't need to involve methodical worksheet use or
anything).

-=-I thought in several states, you can wait for your children being
ready, without pressure ? -=-

Some states have no testing requirements.
Some have testing requirements but the scores don't have to be shown
to any officials.
Some have testing requirements but the scores don't affect one's
right to continue to homeschool
I think a couple have a requirement that if a child is below the 15th
percentile or some such (something low) that the child is supposed to
be put into school. Or maybe one state. (anyone know?)

The lack of pressure has to be defended by the family, meaning there
can always be pressure from in-laws or neighbors, but the parents
have to be confident enough to protect the child from pressure with
their own confidence in what they're doing.

Often the pressure comes from the parents themselves and their fear
of what others will say or do.

It helps for them to know other unschoolers in person when possible,
and see kids older than theirs making natural progress. It doesn't
go on a long smooth curve as school pretends learning goes (when they
average it all out and build a curriculum to "support" the curve).
It goes in bursts and starts, with periods of quiet between. So does
the learning of any individual child in school, but it doesn't show
because the report cards come on a schedule, and the semesters and
school years go by the calendar.

The confidence of unschooling parents needs to come from their own
deep understanding of what they want to accomplish and why. It's
harder than buying a curriculum.

Sandra

Robyn Coburn

<<<< "We're unschoolers so we don't have to follow your laws."
Unschoolers need to understand homeschooling, unschooling and
learning enough to speak of it in terms of whatever laws are in
effect where they are.
******************** Yes, I'm not sure I understand everything you wanted to
say.

When I read the unschooling lists, I see lot of children who don't read at 9
or 10, and I thought it was legal in the US ?>>>>

The legality varies in every State here, but generally has to do with "being
enrolled", or the content of courses "offered", and in some States *taking*
(*sitting for* as against passing) standardized tests or portfolio reviews -
rather than an assessment of how much has been learnt at any particular
time. The standard of portfolio assessment is usually "Showing Progress"
rather than an absolute stage of competence. Some states are tougher than
others in terms of how hard ass the assessor (if any) might be about a child
not *yet* reading fluently.

Many people Unschooling in US states that have assessments and testing go
through a kind of split personality double think process around the time of
assessments.

A lot of the time "they" just don't want to take someone to court over an
issue that so many of the public schools are demonstrably failing at also,
such as reading levels.

And in the end, if someone is being pressured by a State official, they can
move to another State and comply with the Attendance Laws there.

So I wonder if there are statistics available for the French schools about
the ages of reading fluency and comprehension. I just can't believe that
every French schooled child would be reading fluently and fully by 9 if
every American, Australian, English and Canadian child is not.

<<<< Here it's not at all. Children can show lot of things they know to the
inspectors, they can have interests in everything, they can be happy,
joyfull, everything, if they don't know how to read at 7 or 8, it's simply
not possible. >>>

In the US, one of ways laws are changed is through the Judicial process -
the Judges' interpretation become the precedents for the law. Sometimes
legislation passed by the representative governing bodies is challenged in
the courts, and gets overturned because of a higher responsibility to
interpret the Constitution.

What is the worst outcome? Would they have to institute a reading program in
their homeschool? Would they be forced to engage in remedial reading lessons
through a tutor? Would they be forced to send their child to school until he
was able to demonstrate reading ability? Or would their child be removed
from their custody?

Maybe it is worth saying to your child, especially an older one, "We can
keep these folk of our backs and comply with the law if you do a few of
these worksheets. Would you be willing to sit down sometime for a hour and
I'll help you if you want?" I should think saying that would be better than
going to court if the risk was losing your child.

I guess parents might view saying "let's work on your reading" in some way
as compromising one's integrity and ethics. They might see it as
unacceptable, and be willing risk whatever the consequences are. I would
hope that the child involved is mature enough to have a real understanding
of what is being risked, and a real ability to consent to be a heroic figure
in the struggle for Unschooling rights.

Sometimes it is worth moving to another place. Whenever James starts
rumbling about moving somewhere else, the first thing I do is go online and
look up the homeschooling regulations. Some places are going to be vetoed
just on that alone. Although James' pov is that he has enough faith in Jayn,
that he feels we could do whatever was needed to comply with the law and
still Unschool. He has no fears that she would be seen as inadequate in any
way. My fears are more along the lines of how she might be emotionally
harmed by testing etc and how I could mitigate that.

Robyn L. Coburn





I thought in several states, you can wait for your children being ready,
without pressure ?

And as you said,here, for the moment, it's either "homeschooling" or
"truant"..

For the moment, I found the solution for continue our unschooling lives, but
I don't know until when...


Sylvie (eliott le Magicien 97 - Tom le Héros 99 - Lilou la fée 02)
http://www.webzinemaker.com/louves-online/
www.yourtes-tipis.com et www.sculpture-rod.com
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/ressourcesparentsjuraetsuisse/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links







--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.4/283 - Release Date: 3/16/2006


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.2.4/283 - Release Date: 3/16/2006

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 17, 2006, at 5:53 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

> Maybe it is worth saying to your child, especially an older one,
> "We can
> keep these folk of our backs and comply with the law if you do a
> few of
> these worksheets. Would you be willing to sit down sometime for a
> hour and
> I'll help you if you want?" I should think saying that would be
> better than
> going to court if the risk was losing your child.


Years back there was a family (not unschoolers) who went to court
over homeschooling and their children were taken away and (I think)
the mom was put in jail for a while, and they seemed happy about it,
in that they were practicing civil disobedience and making their
point and getting publicity. I can't imagine, for myself, that it
would be worth losing one's children over at all. Not even for a
week. There are other ways to make a point.

-=-I guess parents might view saying "let's work on your reading" in
some way
as compromising one's integrity and ethics. They might see it as
unacceptable, and be willing risk whatever the consequences are. I would
hope that the child involved is mature enough to have a real
understanding
of what is being risked, and a real ability to consent to be a heroic
figure
in the struggle for Unschooling rights. -=-

But that's why integrity and ethics need to include principle and
priorities. My "ethics" take a back seat to my desire for my
children to be safe and happy. So far, I haven't had to make a
choice between those things, but I wouldn't think long if one of my
children was about to be taken away from me. I would compromise the
HECK out of life to keep that child with me. If I had to have my
kids in public school to keep them, they'd be in school today.
Because I DO have a choice, then I make the choice that goes toward
keeping them with me, which is that they don't go to school. And I
make the choice that goes toward natural learning and the maintenance
of their curiosity, which is to help them discover the world in fun
ways.

Last night Holly was in the hot tub with me and Keith. That tub has
been good for incidental conversations. Wednesday night it was us
and Marty, talking about college and U.S. Savings Bonds and such.
Thursday it was Holly, telling me how glad she was that I had shown
her "view source" for webpages, because she had found some good
backgrounds and codes, for her My Space page. We talked about the
legalities, courtesies and ethics of using other art and codes, and
how to credit people, and how to lift public domain art onto her own
computer and then upload it from there. We didn't plan that, and
couldn't have, and it was great.

-=-My fears are more along the lines of how she might be emotionally
harmed by testing etc and how I could mitigate that.
-=-

http://sandradodd.com/testing

I stand by that. If Holly gets busted here in her final years and
the state demands she be tested, I'll just recommend that she make a
pattern with the numbers and walk away whistling happily. Kirby is
past the age of compulsory attendance. Marty, at 17, is working full
time, which is a kind of twilight zone. It's one of the requirements
for being allowed to drop out of school, and so I could say he's
finished with school, or I could say he's doing a project on trades
and vocations. I'm just not worried about it. He's reportedly one
of the best workers there, and the lady in charge of the deli section
has been chatting him up, but when she found he wasn't 18 she was
disappointed, he said. She said he was always cheerful, and he
should come and work in the deli when he's older.

Sandra

elizabeth roberts

NY state requires 33% on the standardized tests to continue to homeschool. NC requires testing, but has no minimum :-) I don't know about anywhere else other than MA off-hand, but you can find the laws on NHEN.org if I'm not mistaken, and definitely on HSLDA.org.

Beth

Some have testing requirements but the scores don't affect one's
right to continue to homeschool
I think a couple have a requirement that if a child is below the 15th
percentile or some such (something low) that the child is supposed to
be put into school. Or maybe one state. (anyone know?)



Sing, Dance, Laugh...LOVE!

---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail
Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

wifetovegman2002

--- In [email protected], elizabeth roberts
<joyfullzoo@...> wrote:
>
> NY state requires 33% on the standardized tests to continue to
homeschool. NC requires testing, but has no minimum :-) I don't know
about anywhere else other than MA off-hand, but you can find the laws
on NHEN.org if I'm not mistaken, and definitely on HSLDA.org.
>

A to Z's Home's Cool has the laws for each state, and links to more
info per state as well.
http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/


In Virginia it is 23%, and if they fail to meet that, then there is a
year of probation and retesting.

However, Virginia also offers other options to testing, such as
evaluations, submitting a portfolio for approval (which usually means
meeting the SOLs in english and math), or filing for Religious
Exemption which means you are completely free of all homeschooling
laws once approved, but requires proving to the school board that your
convictions are religiously based and genuine.



Susan M (VA)
http://radicalchristianunschool.homestead.com/index.html

"Real, natural learning is in the living. It's in the observing, the
questioning, the examining, the pondering, the analyzing, the
watching, the reading, the DO-ing, the living, the breathing, the
loving, the Joy. It's in the Joy." ~Anne Ohman

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 17, 2006, at 7:42 AM, wifetovegman2002 wrote:

> In Virginia it is 23%, and if they fail to meet that, then there is a
> year of probation and retesting.
>
> However, Virginia also offers other options to testing, such as
> evaluations, submitting a portfolio for approval (which usually means
> meeting the SOLs in english and math), or filing for Religious
> Exemption which means you are completely free of all homeschooling
> laws once approved, but requires proving to the school board that your
> convictions are religiously based and genuine.


================

Wouldn't it be cool if they'd start testing kids for happiness, calm,
joy, self esteem, and make parents pull their kids out of school if
they were insufficiently at peace? <bwg>

Deb

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
> Whenever James starts
> rumbling about moving somewhere else, the first thing I do is go
>online and
> look up the homeschooling regulations. Some places are going to be
>vetoed
> just on that alone.
Come on up to CT! There's still ocean nearby, and mountains, and the
homeschooling waters are just fine (homeschooling doesn't even appear
in any statute). And, since we're halfway between Boston and
Manhattan, it's fairly easy to get a dose of 'city' stuff too if you
get the hankering for Broadway plays and such.

--Deb

nellebelle

They didn't hide, one of their children doesn't read at
nine..>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I was quite relieved when my first child learned to read at about 6. People
who knew nothing about the details of our homeschool life, except that we
homeschooled, made comments to me about what a good job I was doing
homeschooling. They assumed that because Lisa could read, I had taught her.

I'm glad my "late" reader came second, and not first. I have more
confidence and knowledge now. I worked to protect her from those who
thought she should be reading and avoided the issue as much as possible with
those who might see me as a "bad" homeschooler because my child didn't read.

She took off with reading at 10 1/2, which is still early compared to some.
<g>

Mary Ellen

rina_groeneveld

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 17, 2006, at 1:52 AM, Sylvie Martin wrote:
>
> > I wanted to say that our website "louves-online" is with
Jeanine
> > Barbé, who is on this list too, not with Catherine.
>
>
> I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to slight Jeanine, who has
translated
> some of the articles too. There are articles there by Danielle
> Conger and Anne Ohman and me.
>

Hi, Sandra

Have any of your articles been translated into German? I've been
looking, but I can't find anything. A lot of the German unschoolers
I know can't understand English well enough to read the articles in
English, and often something will come up in those circles and I'll
think "Oh, Sandra Dodd addressed just that" and have to try and
explain it in my own words in German. That's when I wish I could
just point them to your writing in their own language.

Rina

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 17, 2006, at 12:36 PM, rina_groeneveld wrote:

> Have any of your articles been translated into German? I've been
> looking, but I can't find anything.


No, sorry.
I had a request for permission to translate into Italian, last fall,
but haven't heard back. (When you wrote this, I remembered I should
send them my new address...)

I didn't think there were (or could be) unschoolers in Germany! What
more do you know? I only knew of the Baptist community HSLDA was
making so much international noise about.

Sandra

sandy lubert

<<Wouldn't it be cool if they'd start testing kids for happiness, calm,
joy, self esteem, and make parents pull their kids out of school if
they were insufficiently at peace?>>

Ooooooohhh, I LOVE it!! Can I be one of the "testers"?

Like, "OK, Sweetie, now lie on your back and look at the clouds...can
you do that for me?"

:^)

Wendy S.

On Mar 17, 2006, at 7:53 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
> Although James' pov is that he has enough faith in Jayn,
> that he feels we could do whatever was needed to comply with the
> law and
> still Unschool. He has no fears that she would be seen as
> inadequate in any
> way. My fears are more along the lines of how she might be emotionally
> harmed by testing etc and how I could mitigate that.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn

That sounds just like my dh and me. I'm always worried about the
emotional harm that could be done by testing (we live in Georgia--
kids must be tested every 3 years starting in 3rd grade, but we don't
have to turn the tests in). He says Shelby (7) will be fine. And I
worry about what's going to happen if she's not reading in 2 years
when we're supposed to test. She's *slowly* putting the reading
puzzle together, but it's just not important to her yet. Playing
with Barbies and Fashion Pollies is *much* more deserving of her
time. :-)

Wendy S. in GA
http://www.trustbirth.com

"Motherhood: 24/7 on the frontlines of humanity. Are you man enough
to try it?" Maria Shriver




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rina_groeneveld

Dear Sandra

I've been away for a while so I'm way behind, but I wanted to
respond to this. I didn't realise you didn't know about unschoolers
in Germany, as it was a link from your page that led me to a German
unschooling site (www.unschooling.de). If you look on that page,
you'll see that Clonlara school has started a subsidiary for
unschoolers in Germany, which has been well received. Stefanie
Mohsennia, who runs the site to which I referred, has written the
first book in German about unschooling, which is also on that page.
There is also an organisation, called the Bundesverband Natürlich
Lernen (www.bvnl.de)and the Initiative für Selbstbestimmtes Lernen
(Initiative for self-driven learning is the closest translation I
can think of). Together the BVNL and the Initiative organise
regional and national meetings and an annual summer camp, with the
attendance growing apace.

I suppose that because of the HSLDA, the German-Russian Baptists
were well publicised, but there are a horde of other homeschoolers
across the whole continuum. So far the unofficial figures that I
have heard of range up to about 1000 homeschooled children.

In the last two years, the BVNL has organised a meeting for
homeschooling experts (which includes parents, lawyers, philosophers
and anyone interested in the issue of freedom in education). As you
can imagine, with such a wide range, from those homeschooling mainly
for religious reasons to children's rights activists who are
skeptical about homeschooling and rather want to make all schools
democratic, a la Summerhill, there were many heated discussions.

Homeschoolers of all ilks continue to be persecuted (and prosecuted)
by the authorities, although many are able to slide under the radar,
like us at present. I expect that to change soon, as there is a new
law that all immigrant children who are due to start school in the
following year must have their level of German tested and sent to
German classes. This means that our five year old will soon be
coming to the notice of the local school, who gave us problems 2
years ago about our daughter (which stopped when we said we were
moving away, but we didn't tell them when dh's contract was
exteended). I was at the court case of a fellow unschooling mother a
few weeks back and the judge was quite sympathetic but had now
choice but to impose a fine, given the current state of the law.

Oh, and the Teenage Liberation Handbook is going to be published in
German, hopefully by winter. Now that is something I would love to
get into every library in Germany.

Rina



--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 17, 2006, at 12:36 PM, rina_groeneveld wrote:
>
> > Have any of your articles been translated into German? I've been
> > looking, but I can't find anything.
>
>
> No, sorry.
> I had a request for permission to translate into Italian, last
fall,
> but haven't heard back. (When you wrote this, I remembered I
should
> send them my new address...)
>
> I didn't think there were (or could be) unschoolers in Germany!
What
> more do you know? I only knew of the Baptist community HSLDA
was
> making so much international noise about.
>
> Sandra
>

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 28, 2006, at 1:43 PM, rina_groeneveld wrote:

> I didn't realise you didn't know about unschoolers
> in Germany, as it was a link from your page that led me to a German
> unschooling site (www.unschooling.de). If you look on that page,
> you'll see that Clonlara school has started a subsidiary for
> unschoolers in Germany, which has been well received. Stefanie
> Mohsennia, who runs the site to which I referred, has written the
> first book in German about unschooling, which is also on that page.


I put up links I haven't thoroughly read through pretty often. <g>

I vaguely knew there were people interested in unschooling there, but
didn't know to what extent they might be legally pulling it off.

Sandra

rina_groeneveld

> I put up links I haven't thoroughly read through pretty often. <g>
>
> I vaguely knew there were people interested in unschooling there,
but
> didn't know to what extent they might be legally pulling it off.
>
> Sandra
>

Well not to any extent, really, most of the unschoolers are legally in
the same position as the religious ones. Actually, it's worse I think,
because the authorities will have more sympathy for a family that is
strictly following the state curriculum than for one that is following
the interests of the children (that was one of the things that counted
against my friend in her court case the other day.)

Rina

Sandra Dodd

On Mar 28, 2006, at 9:43 PM, rina_groeneveld wrote:

> Well not to any extent, really, most of the unschoolers are legally in
> the same position as the religious ones. Actually, it's worse I think,
> because the authorities will have more sympathy for a family that is
> strictly following the state curriculum than for one that is following
> the interests of the children (that was one of the things that counted
> against my friend in her court case the other day.)


Here there's an added level of acceptance, legally, if people are
homeschooling for religious reasons. The government will accept
"God told me to" before they'll accept "I did a lot of research and
am making logical, conscious decisions." That's kind of anti-
democratic and anti... cultural. People are respected for accepting
direction, for going with the flow. Either do what God tells you or
what the state tells you. That should be choice enough, some think.

Sandra