Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] fed-up...
aworthen
Tracy,
How about hiring a mother's helper (or even two). I have a 10yog who comes
to my house once a week and keeps the kids occupied with puzzles, books ,
etc while I clean. Because my house is so small, we usually end up playing
musical room (she'll be in the family room while I do the bedrooms, then
they go in the kitchen and eat while I do the livingroom, etc). She comes
all day on Fri. or Sat. and only charges $5! I don't know if you could find
someone that cheap, but to a 10yo $2/hr would be sufficient and still cheap
for you. It's worked out great for us. In fact I just recently got an offer
from a 12yo boy in our hsing group to come on Mons. and I might do that too.
Amy
How about hiring a mother's helper (or even two). I have a 10yog who comes
to my house once a week and keeps the kids occupied with puzzles, books ,
etc while I clean. Because my house is so small, we usually end up playing
musical room (she'll be in the family room while I do the bedrooms, then
they go in the kitchen and eat while I do the livingroom, etc). She comes
all day on Fri. or Sat. and only charges $5! I don't know if you could find
someone that cheap, but to a 10yo $2/hr would be sufficient and still cheap
for you. It's worked out great for us. In fact I just recently got an offer
from a 12yo boy in our hsing group to come on Mons. and I might do that too.
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Oldfield <tracy.oldfield@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 6:49 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] fed-up...
> Right, this is one of those 'off-topic' things about kids which
> someone saw fit to be so dismissive of. I'm asking here because i
> really need some feedback on the whole emotional/empathetic/
> behavioural thing (basically I'm looking for words of wisdom from
> Susan <g>)
>
> It's Tuesday morning and once again I'm mega-fed-up with the
> whole tidying-up thing. I don't know, what do you all think? I need
> to have one day a week when I get the whole house done. If this
> doesn't happen, it gets overwhelming and it doesn't get done for
> weeks and weeks. This includes the kids' room. So is tidying
> their room their problem, since it's their room, or mine, since I'm
> the one who wants to vac the floor? It doesn't help that I got fed-up
> of them faffing about on a Tuesday morning so now they do it on
> Monday night, and then my Tai Chi class moves from Thurs to Mon
> so dh has the kids, and at the moment there seems a lot of
> negativity from that corner. Last night he told them that the tidying
> up would be done before they played out, (in ultimatum format...)
> so Heather said 'I've changed my mind, I don't want to play out...' I
> can't change how he is with them, but I can change how I am, and
> something needs to give...
>
> Am I expecting too much of a 4&1/2 and 3&1/2yo, ther are capable
> of doing the tidying up, apart from the books, which either me or dh
> do? The other problem is that when dh has the kids, he usually
> has work to do (like last night,) so they do their thing while he does
> his, or he wants peace and quiet to watch tv... Can you tell it's not
> the kids I'm annoyed with???
>
> I don't think this is off-topic, cause I don't see how we can all live
> together (which is surely what home-ed is about) unless we can
> manage these situations well.
>
> Well, I need to go finish that hoovering...
>
> Tracy
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963917375/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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Tracy Oldfield
That would be good, the schools break up this week so I could
have some help for the summer, but that's kind-of not the point,
what I'm wondering is whether I should be insisting that they do
their own room or not. I know yesterday was something of an
exception, grr. Though maybe the 'mother's helper' could help the
kids with the tidying up then I can vac, see i get really frustrated
when I 'help' them cos they don't do anything if I'm there. I'm just
at a loss. I don't want to spend all day doing the house, I want to
be able to whizz round with the vac and be able to do other stuff
after that, like baking, today being a nice day, I could do with
doing some hand-washing. If I have to pick everything up, too, it
takes ages and I'm fed-up and cross and don't want to do anything
else when I've finished.
Thanks for reading my rant <g>
Tracy
have some help for the summer, but that's kind-of not the point,
what I'm wondering is whether I should be insisting that they do
their own room or not. I know yesterday was something of an
exception, grr. Though maybe the 'mother's helper' could help the
kids with the tidying up then I can vac, see i get really frustrated
when I 'help' them cos they don't do anything if I'm there. I'm just
at a loss. I don't want to spend all day doing the house, I want to
be able to whizz round with the vac and be able to do other stuff
after that, like baking, today being a nice day, I could do with
doing some hand-washing. If I have to pick everything up, too, it
takes ages and I'm fed-up and cross and don't want to do anything
else when I've finished.
Thanks for reading my rant <g>
Tracy
On 18 Jul 2000, at 8:15, aworthen wrote:
Tracy,
How about hiring a mother's helper (or even two). I
have a 10yog who comes
to my house once a week and keeps the kids occupied
with puzzles, books ,
etc while I clean. Because my house is so small, we
usually end up playing
musical room (she'll be in the family room while I do
the bedrooms, then
they go in the kitchen and eat while I do the
livingroom, etc). She comes
all day on Fri. or Sat. and only charges $5! I don't
know if you could find
someone that cheap, but to a 10yo $2/hr would be
sufficient and still cheap
for you. It's worked out great for us. In fact I just
recently got an offer
from a 12yo boy in our hsing group to come on Mons. and
I might do that too.
Amy
aworthen
I think they're old enough to pick up after themselves. The problem is (the
same one we all have) kids will be kids. I know this sounds kind of lame,
but you know how they are. They've barely finished one mess and they're onto
the next. Now if we were like my dear mil was we would stuff them in
playpens and let them scream, so we could do our June Cleaver thing. But,
alas we are who we are and we value our kids more than our housework. How do
we get beyond this? :-)
Amy
same one we all have) kids will be kids. I know this sounds kind of lame,
but you know how they are. They've barely finished one mess and they're onto
the next. Now if we were like my dear mil was we would stuff them in
playpens and let them scream, so we could do our June Cleaver thing. But,
alas we are who we are and we value our kids more than our housework. How do
we get beyond this? :-)
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Oldfield <tracy.oldfield@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] fed-up...
> That would be good, the schools break up this week so I could
> have some help for the summer, but that's kind-of not the point,
> what I'm wondering is whether I should be insisting that they do
> their own room or not. I know yesterday was something of an
> exception, grr. Though maybe the 'mother's helper' could help the
> kids with the tidying up then I can vac, see i get really frustrated
> when I 'help' them cos they don't do anything if I'm there. I'm just
> at a loss. I don't want to spend all day doing the house, I want to
> be able to whizz round with the vac and be able to do other stuff
> after that, like baking, today being a nice day, I could do with
> doing some hand-washing. If I have to pick everything up, too, it
> takes ages and I'm fed-up and cross and don't want to do anything
> else when I've finished.
>
> Thanks for reading my rant <g>
> Tracy
>
> On 18 Jul 2000, at 8:15, aworthen wrote:
>
> Tracy,
> How about hiring a mother's helper (or even two). I
> have a 10yog who comes
> to my house once a week and keeps the kids occupied
> with puzzles, books ,
> etc while I clean. Because my house is so small, we
> usually end up playing
> musical room (she'll be in the family room while I do
> the bedrooms, then
> they go in the kitchen and eat while I do the
> livingroom, etc). She comes
> all day on Fri. or Sat. and only charges $5! I don't
> know if you could find
> someone that cheap, but to a 10yo $2/hr would be
> sufficient and still cheap
> for you. It's worked out great for us. In fact I just
> recently got an offer
> from a 12yo boy in our hsing group to come on Mons. and
> I might do that too.
> Amy
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963923489/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
Tracy Oldfield
That's the question, and I suppose that's why this list does
sometimes get filled with 'OT' stuff about living with kids of all
ages, since at least we know that most people here will
understand the desire to not inflict things on their kids, but still
have a home they can live in. That is the question, how do we
balance what we know about our kids (that they don't like tidying-
up) against what we want, in this case, them to be able to use the
stuff in their room without standing on it, and without coughing
and choking at the amount of dust in there. Without spending a
fortune on wooden flooring that doesn't trap the dust the same,
and getting rid of all the 'friends,' (teddies or soft toys, to other
folk) that is...
Tracy
sometimes get filled with 'OT' stuff about living with kids of all
ages, since at least we know that most people here will
understand the desire to not inflict things on their kids, but still
have a home they can live in. That is the question, how do we
balance what we know about our kids (that they don't like tidying-
up) against what we want, in this case, them to be able to use the
stuff in their room without standing on it, and without coughing
and choking at the amount of dust in there. Without spending a
fortune on wooden flooring that doesn't trap the dust the same,
and getting rid of all the 'friends,' (teddies or soft toys, to other
folk) that is...
Tracy
On 18 Jul 2000, at 8:57, aworthen wrote:
I think they're old enough to pick up after themselves.
The problem is (the
same one we all have) kids will be kids. But,
alas we are who we are and we value our kids more than
our housework. How do
we get beyond this? :-)
Amy
[email protected]
In a message dated 07/18/2000 12:32:26 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< That would be good, the schools break up this week so I could
have some help for the summer, but that's kind-of not the point,
what I'm wondering is whether I should be insisting that they do
their own room or not. I know yesterday was something of an
exception, grr. Though m >>
IMO -- Take it FWIW -- etc.
The kids are too young to be of any real help.
Your husband is not incapable of learning to help a bit -- but I wouldn't
expect miracles.
You need a long walk.
Your house has too much stuff in it.
This last bit I actually know about. We (me) are in the midst of painting
the 2 kids' rooms. Yesterday, we got to my daughter's closet. I do not even
pretend to intend to paint the inside. But some of the clutter had to go in
order to just fix the doors and paint the outside and move the bed, etc.
I now have, in the garage, 4 large trash bags of stuffed animals and assorted
junk. These are from her closet and general floor stuff. They are headed
for the trash!
She still has a fullllllllll toy box, fullllll to overflowing stuffed animal
chest, lots and lots of art supplies (in a new lidded box to keep them in, I
hope) and misc stuff around the room.
My son's room -- we took down a lot of things off the walls and I'm not in
any hurry to put them back. We got rid of (threw away -- my opinion-- yard
sales are nice for other people but I do not have the time or space to save
stuff for a yard sales I will never have) blocks (the broken ones) and misc
junk from the floor and under the bed and the closet. This was only about 3
trash bags of stuff thrown away!
The rooms now are less visually cluttered (not even done in daughter's room
yet) and feel cleaner and more user friendly. And I think I notice, with
less to keep picked up and a cleaner, new environment, that both are
actually, I think, picking up a little bit.
Sorry to be so long-winded. But I think the 2 things that keep me sane in
this department are low standards!!!! and throwing things away.
I too go nuts about being the only one in this entire house who seems to know
how to put a wet towel in the laundry. Etc etc etc. But, I think they (the
kids -- 5 1/2 and 7) are getting a little better. Husband is pretty much a
lost cause. But at least his crap ends up in the same places -- dirty
clothes get tossed here -- maybe he thinks that's where they go -- who
knows?!
You are not alone in this and I think almost all moms go thru all of this.
And I'm no Martha Stewart so I don't have a clue most of the time for handy
little storage ideas or cute shelves. But I think if you can just keep your
standards low (and I mean it -- nothing HAS to match or has to be painted --
reasonably clean and usable -- that's what I aim at) and your trash bags
handy, you might survive.
Good luck.
Nance
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< That would be good, the schools break up this week so I could
have some help for the summer, but that's kind-of not the point,
what I'm wondering is whether I should be insisting that they do
their own room or not. I know yesterday was something of an
exception, grr. Though m >>
IMO -- Take it FWIW -- etc.
The kids are too young to be of any real help.
Your husband is not incapable of learning to help a bit -- but I wouldn't
expect miracles.
You need a long walk.
Your house has too much stuff in it.
This last bit I actually know about. We (me) are in the midst of painting
the 2 kids' rooms. Yesterday, we got to my daughter's closet. I do not even
pretend to intend to paint the inside. But some of the clutter had to go in
order to just fix the doors and paint the outside and move the bed, etc.
I now have, in the garage, 4 large trash bags of stuffed animals and assorted
junk. These are from her closet and general floor stuff. They are headed
for the trash!
She still has a fullllllllll toy box, fullllll to overflowing stuffed animal
chest, lots and lots of art supplies (in a new lidded box to keep them in, I
hope) and misc stuff around the room.
My son's room -- we took down a lot of things off the walls and I'm not in
any hurry to put them back. We got rid of (threw away -- my opinion-- yard
sales are nice for other people but I do not have the time or space to save
stuff for a yard sales I will never have) blocks (the broken ones) and misc
junk from the floor and under the bed and the closet. This was only about 3
trash bags of stuff thrown away!
The rooms now are less visually cluttered (not even done in daughter's room
yet) and feel cleaner and more user friendly. And I think I notice, with
less to keep picked up and a cleaner, new environment, that both are
actually, I think, picking up a little bit.
Sorry to be so long-winded. But I think the 2 things that keep me sane in
this department are low standards!!!! and throwing things away.
I too go nuts about being the only one in this entire house who seems to know
how to put a wet towel in the laundry. Etc etc etc. But, I think they (the
kids -- 5 1/2 and 7) are getting a little better. Husband is pretty much a
lost cause. But at least his crap ends up in the same places -- dirty
clothes get tossed here -- maybe he thinks that's where they go -- who
knows?!
You are not alone in this and I think almost all moms go thru all of this.
And I'm no Martha Stewart so I don't have a clue most of the time for handy
little storage ideas or cute shelves. But I think if you can just keep your
standards low (and I mean it -- nothing HAS to match or has to be painted --
reasonably clean and usable -- that's what I aim at) and your trash bags
handy, you might survive.
Good luck.
Nance
Bonnie Painter
I think that it is probably a little beyond them so far. My 3 yo tends to
empty everything onto her floor and then is sad that she can't find her
things to play with. I know where you are coming from. They both seem to
be able to clean up, but they usually do need assistance. Your dd sounds
like my kids in chosing to 'Not play out' over cleaning.
Good luck and if we find any better solutions I'll let you know.
Bonnie
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
empty everything onto her floor and then is sad that she can't find her
things to play with. I know where you are coming from. They both seem to
be able to clean up, but they usually do need assistance. Your dd sounds
like my kids in chosing to 'Not play out' over cleaning.
Good luck and if we find any better solutions I'll let you know.
Bonnie
>From: "Tracy Oldfield" <tracy.oldfield@...>________________________________________________________________________
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] fed-up...
>Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 11:49:49 +0100
>
>Right, this is one of those 'off-topic' things about kids which
>someone saw fit to be so dismissive of. I'm asking here because i
>really need some feedback on the whole emotional/empathetic/
>behavioural thing (basically I'm looking for words of wisdom from
>Susan <g>)
>
>It's Tuesday morning and once again I'm mega-fed-up with the
>whole tidying-up thing. I don't know, what do you all think? I need
>to have one day a week when I get the whole house done. If this
>doesn't happen, it gets overwhelming and it doesn't get done for
>weeks and weeks. This includes the kids' room. So is tidying
>their room their problem, since it's their room, or mine, since I'm
>the one who wants to vac the floor? It doesn't help that I got fed-up
>of them faffing about on a Tuesday morning so now they do it on
>Monday night, and then my Tai Chi class moves from Thurs to Mon
>so dh has the kids, and at the moment there seems a lot of
>negativity from that corner. Last night he told them that the tidying
>up would be done before they played out, (in ultimatum format...)
>so Heather said 'I've changed my mind, I don't want to play out...' I
>can't change how he is with them, but I can change how I am, and
>something needs to give...
>
>Am I expecting too much of a 4&1/2 and 3&1/2yo, ther are capable
>of doing the tidying up, apart from the books, which either me or dh
>do? The other problem is that when dh has the kids, he usually
>has work to do (like last night,) so they do their thing while he does
>his, or he wants peace and quiet to watch tv... Can you tell it's not
>the kids I'm annoyed with???
>
>I don't think this is off-topic, cause I don't see how we can all live
>together (which is surely what home-ed is about) unless we can
>manage these situations well.
>
>Well, I need to go finish that hoovering...
>
>Tracy
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Tracy Oldfield
Thanks, Nance, but I thought my standards were fairly low
already! but the thing about laundry was the tin-lid this morning,
there's a pile of mostly-folded clean clothes on top of a chest of
drawers in the bedroom. This morning I found a big pile of dirty
clothes (remnant from sorting for the washer) on top of the clean
ones. Now this does get on my wick! but then if it bothered me
that much I'd put the clean stuff away, but then also, it's the kids
clothes... Oh, boy!
Tracy
You are not alone in this and I think almost all moms
go thru all of this.
And I'm no Martha Stewart so I don't have a clue most
of the time for handy
little storage ideas or cute shelves. But I think if
you can just keep your
standards low (and I mean it -- nothing HAS to match or
has to be painted --
reasonably clean and usable -- that's what I aim at)
and your trash bags
handy, you might survive.
Good luck.
Nance
already! but the thing about laundry was the tin-lid this morning,
there's a pile of mostly-folded clean clothes on top of a chest of
drawers in the bedroom. This morning I found a big pile of dirty
clothes (remnant from sorting for the washer) on top of the clean
ones. Now this does get on my wick! but then if it bothered me
that much I'd put the clean stuff away, but then also, it's the kids
clothes... Oh, boy!
Tracy
You are not alone in this and I think almost all moms
go thru all of this.
And I'm no Martha Stewart so I don't have a clue most
of the time for handy
little storage ideas or cute shelves. But I think if
you can just keep your
standards low (and I mean it -- nothing HAS to match or
has to be painted --
reasonably clean and usable -- that's what I aim at)
and your trash bags
handy, you might survive.
Good luck.
Nance
[email protected]
In a message dated 07/18/2000 2:08:20 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< Thanks, Nance, but I thought my standards were fairly low
already! but the thing about laundry was the tin-lid this morning,
the >>
LOL
Oh no -- you can do it --aim low!!!
If anyone complains -- ha -- if anyone notices -- give them the look! You
know the one. Followed by the speech -- if it bothers you, it's your job,
etc.
And I love your expressions -- tin lid -- neat.
I think I hear the swing outside calling me -- I have this book to finish --
maybe the laundry will do itself!
Nance
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< Thanks, Nance, but I thought my standards were fairly low
already! but the thing about laundry was the tin-lid this morning,
the >>
LOL
Oh no -- you can do it --aim low!!!
If anyone complains -- ha -- if anyone notices -- give them the look! You
know the one. Followed by the speech -- if it bothers you, it's your job,
etc.
And I love your expressions -- tin lid -- neat.
I think I hear the swing outside calling me -- I have this book to finish --
maybe the laundry will do itself!
Nance
susan wilson
my opinion, and it's coming from someone who has hit rock bottom in
the 'clean house standards department'-lol
make it fun! whether they help you or not. because if they see YOU
enjoying cleaning they'll want to participate. the nature of the
'beast':)
rene' who will be 5 on 18th /sept. comes and goes w/ cleaning. he's
almost always is in the room that's being cleaned and gets really
excited when he does something which is overtly helpful. and yes he
does spend more time talking about just how helpful he is then he does
actually being helpful:) but hey nothing wrong w/ a little
entertainment while one cleans <G>.
i think everything should be done as a family (including the family
bed:), or as much as humanly possible - given ones particular
temperament and all<G>. cleaning should be play for both the adults
and children. w/ rene' i focus on when he helps (and ignore when he
doesn't) and always give him a choice to help or not. i do make
suggestion and create do-able jobs for him, and make sure he feels
included but i never push him to do it. also all rooms are part of
the house even though one room has all his things in it, so no
separation - one big whole:) i think this echoes the spirit of
family, rather the individual, creating more bonding. i also sit back
after it's all clean and talk about just how great it feels to have a
clean house and how much fun it was to clean w/ him. keep it a
positive thing, not a job but a game.
i grew up with the attitude that cleaning was a drag, my mom hated it
& i grew up to hate it and my house was always disgusting ( and still
is -lol-but i see it very differently now:) this was because cleaning
was a 2nd class job and the person doing it deserved and got no
respect (and i was a professional house cleaner for a time and people
are not respectful! i could tell lots of stories) but then 3 yrs ago
i got sick and lost most of the connective tissues in my shoulders and
now i would love to clean my house - i would happily scrub, dust, wash
everything and i see it as one of the most important jobs in the
world.
i guess what i'm saying is something like 'zen and the art of house
cleaning w/ children' lol -let go of the outcome and enjoy the
process. i would say don't really change anything other then your
attitude. and the truth is that's about the only thing one really
can change or control - certainly not ones children<G>. your house
may or may not be cleaner but from my point of view it's not so much
the outcome but the relationships and atmosphere of the home.
susan,
thad,
rene' (9/18/95)
austin, tx
the 'clean house standards department'-lol
make it fun! whether they help you or not. because if they see YOU
enjoying cleaning they'll want to participate. the nature of the
'beast':)
rene' who will be 5 on 18th /sept. comes and goes w/ cleaning. he's
almost always is in the room that's being cleaned and gets really
excited when he does something which is overtly helpful. and yes he
does spend more time talking about just how helpful he is then he does
actually being helpful:) but hey nothing wrong w/ a little
entertainment while one cleans <G>.
i think everything should be done as a family (including the family
bed:), or as much as humanly possible - given ones particular
temperament and all<G>. cleaning should be play for both the adults
and children. w/ rene' i focus on when he helps (and ignore when he
doesn't) and always give him a choice to help or not. i do make
suggestion and create do-able jobs for him, and make sure he feels
included but i never push him to do it. also all rooms are part of
the house even though one room has all his things in it, so no
separation - one big whole:) i think this echoes the spirit of
family, rather the individual, creating more bonding. i also sit back
after it's all clean and talk about just how great it feels to have a
clean house and how much fun it was to clean w/ him. keep it a
positive thing, not a job but a game.
i grew up with the attitude that cleaning was a drag, my mom hated it
& i grew up to hate it and my house was always disgusting ( and still
is -lol-but i see it very differently now:) this was because cleaning
was a 2nd class job and the person doing it deserved and got no
respect (and i was a professional house cleaner for a time and people
are not respectful! i could tell lots of stories) but then 3 yrs ago
i got sick and lost most of the connective tissues in my shoulders and
now i would love to clean my house - i would happily scrub, dust, wash
everything and i see it as one of the most important jobs in the
world.
i guess what i'm saying is something like 'zen and the art of house
cleaning w/ children' lol -let go of the outcome and enjoy the
process. i would say don't really change anything other then your
attitude. and the truth is that's about the only thing one really
can change or control - certainly not ones children<G>. your house
may or may not be cleaner but from my point of view it's not so much
the outcome but the relationships and atmosphere of the home.
susan,
thad,
rene' (9/18/95)
austin, tx
> That's the question,
>
> Tracy
>
> I think they're old enough to pick up after themselves.
> Amy
Corallyn Berger
> what I'm wondering is whether I should be insistingthat they do their own room or not. I know yesterday
was something of an exception, grr. I'm just at a
loss. I don't want to spend all day doing the house,
I want to be able to whizz round with the vac and be
able to do other stuff after that, like baking, today
being a nice day, I could do with doing some
hand-washing. If I have to pick everything up, too,
it takes ages and I'm fed-up and cross and don't want
to do anything else when I've finished.
>I have kinda the same problem with my 5yos and 3.5yod.
> Thanks for reading my rant <g>
> Tracy
>
DS is good to pick up and pitch in and help when I ask
him to. DD on the other hand is "I will but I will do
it on my own time" type. This has been hard for me to
deal with. What I have realized though is that DS is
somewhat of an exception and that maybe my
expectations are too high for DD. I have also decided
that I am not going to pick up after their messes in
the house. I will sweep everything into a pile and
even go through and sort the pile into smaller piles
so it doesn't seem so overwhelming to them but as far
as actually putting the mess away, they do it.
Sometimes they dilly dally and take much longer than
it has to. During these times I have learned that
although they are doing the job much slower than I
would like for them too, they are still working on it.
Also, I have started telling them which pile each one
has to put away. Usually, DS ends up doing a little
more than DD, but I figure that he is older and can
handle a little more than she can. This has worked out
so far. Now when it comes to cleaning DD's room I have
found that if I use the same technique she does pretty
well. Especially if I appear to be working i.e. busy
in there with her. What I usually do is sweep
everything into a pile and begin sortin it out. While
I am doing this I will give her little jobs to do like
I will say, "Here go put this in your brother's room."
"Go put this in the sink." So she is not just sitting
there while I am working. When she returns from each
assignment I tell her thank you or good job/girl and
then give her something else to go do. In the end she
puts most of the stuff away. I make sure not to show
that I am frustrated with her and give her lots of
praise. This was really hard at first, but has really
paid off. She still isn't able to go in there and do
the job herself but it isn't as unpleasant for either
of us any more. Eventually, I will send her in to pick
up just the clothes then pick up just the books, etc.
This is what I do with 5yos. Also, I will set the
timer for say 30 min and tell them "Let's see if we
can beat the clock." They get excited and start
running around. If they are done before the clock or
if they have been working really hard and don't quite
beat the clock I will give them a treat for their hard
work. I know you wanted to hear that there was some
way to get them to do it all at once right now, but I
have learned that many times they have to work
themselves up to doing the bigger job right now.
__________________________________________________
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In a message dated 07/18/2000 6:57:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
marbleface@... writes:
<<
The kids are too young to be of any real help.
Your husband is not incapable of learning to help a bit -- but I wouldn't
expect miracles.
You need a long walk.
Your house has too much stuff in it. >>
This was my first thought also. I have seen 3 yrs old, 3 times and 4 1/2 2 x
so
far, and they are just not capable of doing very much. They don't have the
maturity or desire. My first born (a girl) has been a little helper since 4.
Putting
away clothes, helping picking up just to get things done so we can get onto
the
more important/fun things. My now 5 yr old boy does not like to clean up, he
mostly hates it. We have had many talks on the subject.
How mom picks up stuff thats not even hers just to help out blah blah blah, it
does seem to help a bit, but its frustrating cus his attitude makes me have
negative feelings towards him (ie I think he is lazy!) when in fact, he's
really just not that
mature, cus sure cleaning up is not really fun compared to other things. My
current three yr old boy will help out when we all get together to do it, but
then again sometimes he'll just do legos while the rest of us do it. It
seems that most of the moms I know have lowered their standards, but even
still we all seem to struggle with it. Picking up seems to be the most
dreaded chore, while getting to clean (rags and spray bottles) isn't so bad.
I regularly go thru the kids room (and they know I am doing it and are right
there and know I don't take anything out that they want, they even check my
bag and the stuff gets donated or goes in the trash. At that age and older I
would say you still have to help them clean up. You can't just say please
pick up your toys so I can vacuum, you will have to go in there sit on the
floor and hand each child a toy to set on the shelf, tell them each and every
piece to pick up and where to put it. Tedious yet, but less frustrating than
expecting them to do more than they are capable of. On a final upbeat note
LOL I gave the kids old dad socks to put on their feet and squirt bottles
with water and a dab of cleaner and told them to go ice skating on the
kitchen floor. They got it pretty darn clean and it was seriously pitiful
looking!!! Hang in there!
Kathy
marbleface@... writes:
<<
The kids are too young to be of any real help.
Your husband is not incapable of learning to help a bit -- but I wouldn't
expect miracles.
You need a long walk.
Your house has too much stuff in it. >>
This was my first thought also. I have seen 3 yrs old, 3 times and 4 1/2 2 x
so
far, and they are just not capable of doing very much. They don't have the
maturity or desire. My first born (a girl) has been a little helper since 4.
Putting
away clothes, helping picking up just to get things done so we can get onto
the
more important/fun things. My now 5 yr old boy does not like to clean up, he
mostly hates it. We have had many talks on the subject.
How mom picks up stuff thats not even hers just to help out blah blah blah, it
does seem to help a bit, but its frustrating cus his attitude makes me have
negative feelings towards him (ie I think he is lazy!) when in fact, he's
really just not that
mature, cus sure cleaning up is not really fun compared to other things. My
current three yr old boy will help out when we all get together to do it, but
then again sometimes he'll just do legos while the rest of us do it. It
seems that most of the moms I know have lowered their standards, but even
still we all seem to struggle with it. Picking up seems to be the most
dreaded chore, while getting to clean (rags and spray bottles) isn't so bad.
I regularly go thru the kids room (and they know I am doing it and are right
there and know I don't take anything out that they want, they even check my
bag and the stuff gets donated or goes in the trash. At that age and older I
would say you still have to help them clean up. You can't just say please
pick up your toys so I can vacuum, you will have to go in there sit on the
floor and hand each child a toy to set on the shelf, tell them each and every
piece to pick up and where to put it. Tedious yet, but less frustrating than
expecting them to do more than they are capable of. On a final upbeat note
LOL I gave the kids old dad socks to put on their feet and squirt bottles
with water and a dab of cleaner and told them to go ice skating on the
kitchen floor. They got it pretty darn clean and it was seriously pitiful
looking!!! Hang in there!
Kathy
[email protected]
In a message dated 07/18/2000 9:36:52 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hape2day@... writes:
<< Let's see if we
can beat the clock." They get excited and start
running around. If >>
Oh yes this has worked well for us and they do it without me physically
helping,
but rather than set a timer we just count to 30 or something s-l-o-w-l-y, and
sometimes I forget what I am doing and the kids yell count mom LOL. This
can only be done with quick pick ups and the stuff won't necessarily be
organized
neatly on the shelf, but the floor will be picked up anyhow! Also, if I am
really
frustrated and stressed I will ask my dd if she is willing to pick up their
room
living room and office and I will pay her for doing so much extra work
hape2day@... writes:
<< Let's see if we
can beat the clock." They get excited and start
running around. If >>
Oh yes this has worked well for us and they do it without me physically
helping,
but rather than set a timer we just count to 30 or something s-l-o-w-l-y, and
sometimes I forget what I am doing and the kids yell count mom LOL. This
can only be done with quick pick ups and the stuff won't necessarily be
organized
neatly on the shelf, but the floor will be picked up anyhow! Also, if I am
really
frustrated and stressed I will ask my dd if she is willing to pick up their
room
living room and office and I will pay her for doing so much extra work
[email protected]
whhoop sent that out before I finished. I pay her $1-2 and it is not a
motivator
but a reward, which is why I don't offer the same deal to ds because for him
getting paid would be the only reason he would do it-maybe. It is completely
her
choice and she doesn't mind (plus I help her if I can with some of the
organizing) and feels good to have a big girl thing going on with me.
kathy
motivator
but a reward, which is why I don't offer the same deal to ds because for him
getting paid would be the only reason he would do it-maybe. It is completely
her
choice and she doesn't mind (plus I help her if I can with some of the
organizing) and feels good to have a big girl thing going on with me.
kathy
dawn
i don't think the children your kids' ages are able to do much picking up
if the room is out of control. My 5 yo can NOT do much if the room is
overwhelming, unless I'm right there directing, in which case I might as
well pitch in and do it too. My 7 yo is better able to do this, but only
since this past winter. We have much better success doing "zone" tidying
a couple of times a day....their room in the morning, the living room
between lunch and dinner, the tv/computer/all purpose room in the evening.
Takes about 5-10 minutes. Then I can do cleaning to my heart's content
(NOT) should i desire to do so. Right now, MY room is the one that is so
untidy I can't clean it.
dawn h-s
" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham
if the room is out of control. My 5 yo can NOT do much if the room is
overwhelming, unless I'm right there directing, in which case I might as
well pitch in and do it too. My 7 yo is better able to do this, but only
since this past winter. We have much better success doing "zone" tidying
a couple of times a day....their room in the morning, the living room
between lunch and dinner, the tv/computer/all purpose room in the evening.
Takes about 5-10 minutes. Then I can do cleaning to my heart's content
(NOT) should i desire to do so. Right now, MY room is the one that is so
untidy I can't clean it.
dawn h-s
" "I am a woman here on planet Earth
I have the breath of life in me, a gift given at birth
No one, no body, no powers that be
Can ever, ever, ever take this gift away from me."
--Ruth Pelham
Tracy Oldfield
I'm not sure whether to just get rid of everything and start again,
with whatever they ask for, which just doesn't seem unschool-y to
me, but someone else's kid's psych has recommended for them
(though her kids have separate rooms, so she can do that for one
kid and not the other...) Or to simply say 'ok, the floor is my
problem, since I'm the one who wishes to vac. So I'll take
everything that's on the floor and put it on the bed, and you can
sort it out when u want.' My other problem with the former
suggestion is that I simply do not have space to keep everything in
other places than their room. I'm not helped here by my mum,
where they spend a lot of time, leaving everything until they've
gone and then just shoving it all in boxes, higgledy piggledy, then
wondering why they can't find anything to do when they go. I'd
like life to be 'Montessori-ish,' I suppose. oh, poooh!
Well, off to get folk dressed so we can go to the shops for
something for tea...
Tracy
with whatever they ask for, which just doesn't seem unschool-y to
me, but someone else's kid's psych has recommended for them
(though her kids have separate rooms, so she can do that for one
kid and not the other...) Or to simply say 'ok, the floor is my
problem, since I'm the one who wishes to vac. So I'll take
everything that's on the floor and put it on the bed, and you can
sort it out when u want.' My other problem with the former
suggestion is that I simply do not have space to keep everything in
other places than their room. I'm not helped here by my mum,
where they spend a lot of time, leaving everything until they've
gone and then just shoving it all in boxes, higgledy piggledy, then
wondering why they can't find anything to do when they go. I'd
like life to be 'Montessori-ish,' I suppose. oh, poooh!
Well, off to get folk dressed so we can go to the shops for
something for tea...
Tracy
On 18 Jul 2000, at 10:13, dawn wrote:
i don't think the children your kids' ages are able to
do much picking up
if the room is out of control. My 5 yo can NOT do much
if the room is
overwhelming, unless I'm right there directing, in
which case I might as
well pitch in and do it too. My 7 yo is better able to
do this, but only
since this past winter. We have much better success
doing "zone" tidying
a couple of times a day....their room in the morning,
the living room
between lunch and dinner, the tv/computer/all purpose
room in the evening.
Takes about 5-10 minutes. Then I can do cleaning to my
heart's content
(NOT) should i desire to do so. Right now, MY room is
the one that is so
untidy I can't clean it.
dawn h-s
aworthen
Welcome Lee,
I know you from the huuh-l list. :) I like the system you use with your son.
I must admit I'm not big into discipline, but I think it's important that if
you are going to use punishments that they be balanced with rewards. One of
the systems we tried was similar to yours. We had a reward jar and a
punishment jar. If someone did something (or didn't do something-such as
housework) that I felt constituted a punishment they would reach in the jar
and pull it out. In the jar were slips of paper with things like no t.v.
tonight, no bike for the rest of the day, etc. On the flip side the reward
jar had things like go for an ice cream, extra 1/2 hr of tv, etc. They would
get to go into this jar for things like doing a chore w/o being asked,
helping a hurt sibling, etc. I really liked it and it worked the best out of
all things we tried. It just didn't work for us cuz I felt guilty making
them dig into the punishment jar. Oh well, one of my shortcomings as a
parent I guess.
Amy
I know you from the huuh-l list. :) I like the system you use with your son.
I must admit I'm not big into discipline, but I think it's important that if
you are going to use punishments that they be balanced with rewards. One of
the systems we tried was similar to yours. We had a reward jar and a
punishment jar. If someone did something (or didn't do something-such as
housework) that I felt constituted a punishment they would reach in the jar
and pull it out. In the jar were slips of paper with things like no t.v.
tonight, no bike for the rest of the day, etc. On the flip side the reward
jar had things like go for an ice cream, extra 1/2 hr of tv, etc. They would
get to go into this jar for things like doing a chore w/o being asked,
helping a hurt sibling, etc. I really liked it and it worked the best out of
all things we tried. It just didn't work for us cuz I felt guilty making
them dig into the punishment jar. Oh well, one of my shortcomings as a
parent I guess.
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: M & J Welch <seamus@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 11:12 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] fed-up...
> Hi, I'm new to this list-so this is kind of a response/self-intro
(although
> I recognize a few names here from the huuh list, hem page and unschooling
> page, which I frequent). I'm a homeschooler/unschooler (or learning to be
> one), have 3 boys 7, 3, and 3 months, and live in Escanaba MI. We've been
> homeschooling for about 2 years, and my son has been gradually leading me
> into unschooling, which is the best method for him to learn.
>
> I'm addressing your question, Tracy, because I just went through this with
> my husband, Mike. He's naturally a coercive parent. He does his best to
> control it, but his childhood upbringing was based on authority and fear,
> and he regresses. We've done a good job treating our kids like people and
> not pets, so they are personality plus-especially our eldest boy. As a
> result, Mike butts heads with our son, Seamus, rather often. He's proud
of
> Seamus' spirit, but frustrated that Seamus hasn't yet figured out how to
> pick his battles. I admit, I get frustrated too, but I'm more patient than
> my husband.
>
> We've had the same problems over house upkeep. We all live in this house
and
> avail of the advantages of living here, so I feel we all need to work
> together in order to "pay" for the "privilege" of living in our home. I
> explained it to my son by using the Little Red Hen story. It seemed to
click
> well in his brain, but his lack of helping didn't change-and I ended up
> witnessing my husband coercing my son again to clean the house.
>
> In order to keep peace in the house, we had to create non-coercive, or at
> least minimally coercive, consequences for my son. Since we consider
living
> in our home a privilege, we decided to make a list of Seamus' favorite
> privileges. We wrote them out on tickets and tacked them to our bulletin
> board. When we find ourselves repeatedly requesting that he perform a
> household duty and he fails to do it he loses a daily privilege-like
> watching t.v., playing with his sega, using the computer, staying up until
> 9:30pm, getting dessert after dinner, and the absolute worst one we pull
> last, playing outside. (This last one is the biggie-he knows he'll really
> have screwed up if we have to pull that one as it's his favorite thing to
> do. The good thing is-we haven't had to pull it yet). I can usually tell
> when it's time to take a ticket because I can feel my frustration level
> increase-I have no set number of requests since every situation is
slightly
> different
>
> We also use the reward system, based on an idea I saw listed on another
> homeschooling board. When he performs each daily duty without being
forced
> to do it, he gets a star on his learning calendar. When he gets 10 stars
he
> gets a ticket which he can use towards special privileges. Right now he's
> working towards getting Nickelodeon magazine-we've placed a ticket value
on
> it based on the subscription price.
>
> I don't think this is true blue non-coercive parenting, but it's a
> compromise that seems to be mutually beneficial. Our son is learning that
> there are expectations that need to be followed when you share your home
> with others, and my husband is learning that children don't have to be
> threatened with ultimatums in order to get them to clean up after
> themselves. Most importantly, we've learned how to talk with one another
> about doing household chores without getting frustrated or angry. And our
> home is staying clean without buildup for the first time since we've had
> kids. It's amazing! I guess some people (like me!) are just slow. ;-)
>
> Anyway-that's an idea-something to chew on.
>
> Best, Lee (Jennifer Lee Welch)
>
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963933280/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
aworthen
I think most of us were brought up with some coersion or
support of this list. I was not home schooled so therefore I feel like I
still need this.
Amy
> other (either reward or punishment or combination of both) andI don't know. I wasn't raised with this kind of system and I need the
> the lucky ones who weren't are probably secure in themselves
> enough to not need the suport of a list like this
support of this list. I was not home schooled so therefore I feel like I
still need this.
Amy
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy Oldfield <tracy.oldfield@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2000 5:36 PM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] fed-up...
> Thanks, Lee. I don't want to start on the reward-system thing,
> cos afaics, it just lends to bigger and bigger rewards, and more
> and more reliance on external motivation, but since the kids have
> no internal motivation to sort their stuff out, I don't know where to
> start. <g> it's something
> to add to the mix, though...
>
> Tracy
>
> On 18 Jul 2000, at 11:12, M & J Welch wrote:
>
>
>
> We also use the reward system, based on an idea I saw
> listed on another
> homeschooling board. When he performs each daily duty
> without being forced
> to do it, he gets a star on his learning calendar.
> When he gets 10 stars he
> gets a ticket which he can use towards special
> privileges. Right now he's
> working towards getting Nickelodeon magazine-we've
> placed a ticket value on
> it based on the subscription price.
>
> I don't think this is true blue non-coercive parenting,
> but it's a
> compromise that seems to be mutually beneficial. Our
> son is learning that
> there are expectations that need to be followed when
> you share your home
> with others, and my husband is learning that children
> don't have to be
> threatened with ultimatums in order to get them to
> clean up after
> themselves. Most importantly, we've learned how to talk
> with one another
> about doing household chores without getting frustrated
> or angry. And our
> home is staying clean without buildup for the first
> time since we've had
> kids. It's amazing! I guess some people (like me!) are
> just slow. ;-)
>
> Anyway-that's an idea-something to chew on.
>
> Best, Lee (Jennifer Lee Welch)
>
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963956159/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>
Tracy Oldfield
thanks, susan. i know your situation is way different to mine, and
I hate to seem like a whinger. I just haven't reached that point of
'zen...' yet i guess. I'm still deschooling from the 'cleaning is
bother' attitude. I do enjoy it, really, but we have a problem that
the kids run and hide when i vac, so i'd love to include them in me
doing this but they're too busy being terrified... Usually while i'm
doing upstairs they will do downstairs, which is good. i guess it
was just me that didn't want to do it today, though i know i need to
cos it's just overwhelming otherwise. their room actually looks
little different (different stuff on the floor) than it did before they
started yesterday. ah well. it's their stuff..
Tracy
I hate to seem like a whinger. I just haven't reached that point of
'zen...' yet i guess. I'm still deschooling from the 'cleaning is
bother' attitude. I do enjoy it, really, but we have a problem that
the kids run and hide when i vac, so i'd love to include them in me
doing this but they're too busy being terrified... Usually while i'm
doing upstairs they will do downstairs, which is good. i guess it
was just me that didn't want to do it today, though i know i need to
cos it's just overwhelming otherwise. their room actually looks
little different (different stuff on the floor) than it did before they
started yesterday. ah well. it's their stuff..
Tracy
On 18 Jul 2000, at 10:20, susan wilson wrote:
my opinion, and it's coming from someone who has hit
rock bottom in
the 'clean house standards department'-lol
make it fun! whether they help you or not. because
if they see YOU
enjoying cleaning they'll want to participate. the
nature of the
'beast':)
Tracy Oldfield
Thanks, corallyn. I'm not really looking for a quick fix, just wanted
some feedback as to whether my expectations of what they do are
too high/low. I suppose part of it is that dd2 tends to do more than
dd1, and i have a problem with that because their early lives were
so different, I can't help thinking that their attitudes are so different
because they were treat so different. I know that's past and if one
subscribes to the theory that we choose our lives, then that's their
choice too. But it can be hard for me to get past. I suppose i need
to read one of those 'spirited child' books, as they are both
challenging in their own sweet ways <g> Splitting it down sounds
like a great idea, but they still just sit and look at it, and I need to
sort the rest of the house, so that's what i used to do. I could do
the whole house and they'd have forgotten that i need their room
done so i can vac. so this is why it's got moved to monday night.
Yesterday may have been an exception since it's our first monday
without going to gym during the day, it's closed for the summer.
and I'm out so it's not me helping them do, so i don't know what's
being done... I do know that i'm more of a sorter than dh, dh is a
pick-up-and-sort-later type, but the sort-later doesn't often get
done. we have drawers full of stuff that's been 'tidied...'
I'll try to remember about sorting into piles first.
Tracy
some feedback as to whether my expectations of what they do are
too high/low. I suppose part of it is that dd2 tends to do more than
dd1, and i have a problem with that because their early lives were
so different, I can't help thinking that their attitudes are so different
because they were treat so different. I know that's past and if one
subscribes to the theory that we choose our lives, then that's their
choice too. But it can be hard for me to get past. I suppose i need
to read one of those 'spirited child' books, as they are both
challenging in their own sweet ways <g> Splitting it down sounds
like a great idea, but they still just sit and look at it, and I need to
sort the rest of the house, so that's what i used to do. I could do
the whole house and they'd have forgotten that i need their room
done so i can vac. so this is why it's got moved to monday night.
Yesterday may have been an exception since it's our first monday
without going to gym during the day, it's closed for the summer.
and I'm out so it's not me helping them do, so i don't know what's
being done... I do know that i'm more of a sorter than dh, dh is a
pick-up-and-sort-later type, but the sort-later doesn't often get
done. we have drawers full of stuff that's been 'tidied...'
I'll try to remember about sorting into piles first.
Tracy
On 18 Jul 2000, at 9:36, Corallyn Berger wrote:
What I usually do is sweep
> everything into a pile and begin sortin it out. While
> I am doing this I will give her little jobs to do like
> I will say, "Here go put this in your brother's room."
> "Go put this in the sink." So she is not just sitting
> there while I am working. When she returns from each
> assignment I tell her thank you or good job/girl and
> then give her something else to go do. In the end she
> puts most of the stuff away. I make sure not to show
> that I am frustrated with her and give her lots of
> praise. This was really hard at first, but has really
> paid off. She still isn't able to go in there and do
> the job herself but it isn't as unpleasant for either
> of us any more. Eventually, I will send her in to pick
> up just the clothes then pick up just the books, etc.
> This is what I do with 5yos. Also, I will set the
> timer for say 30 min and tell them "Let's see if we
> can beat the clock." They get excited and start
> running around. If they are done before the clock or
> if they have been working really hard and don't quite
> beat the clock I will give them a treat for their hard
> work. I know you wanted to hear that there was some
> way to get them to do it all at once right now, but I
> have learned that many times they have to work
> themselves up to doing the bigger job right now.
>
Tracy Oldfield
Thanks Kathy. Thing is i know, have seen them, do this well
enough without being prompted, and if i go and prompt, it actually
takes longer. particularly one, she sits and sits and sits and sits....
I can say 'this needs to go there,' and hand it to her and she does
not move. which is very frustrating. yet one day, after doing
upstairs, i came down and opened the living-room door to find
they'd picked everything up and put it all on the sofas so i could
vac! I cried happy tears that day!!!
Tracy
enough without being prompted, and if i go and prompt, it actually
takes longer. particularly one, she sits and sits and sits and sits....
I can say 'this needs to go there,' and hand it to her and she does
not move. which is very frustrating. yet one day, after doing
upstairs, i came down and opened the living-room door to find
they'd picked everything up and put it all on the sofas so i could
vac! I cried happy tears that day!!!
Tracy
Tracy Oldfield
I was semi-joking with this comment... you, at least, have a head-
start on those of us who wish to become less coersive. My
biggest problems as a child were being belittled, and having
expectations placed on me, both low (as in housework and
finishing what i start) and high (academically) this is apart from
the bullying at school...
How many unschoolers does it take to change a lightbulb? Just
one, but you might have to wait until they really, really see when
it's dark...
Tracy
start on those of us who wish to become less coersive. My
biggest problems as a child were being belittled, and having
expectations placed on me, both low (as in housework and
finishing what i start) and high (academically) this is apart from
the bullying at school...
How many unschoolers does it take to change a lightbulb? Just
one, but you might have to wait until they really, really see when
it's dark...
Tracy
On 18 Jul 2000, at 17:43, aworthen wrote:
I think most of us were brought up with some coersion or
> other (either reward or punishment or combination of
both) and
> the lucky ones who weren't are probably secure in
themselves
> enough to not need the suport of a list like this
I don't know. I wasn't raised with this kind of system
and I need the
support of this list. I was not home schooled so
therefore I feel like I
still need this.
Amy
Corallyn Berger
--- Tracy Oldfield wrote:
trained my children, I would give them a piece of
candy when they used the toilet. I did this for a day
or two. Then quit offering the candy after that. If
they asked for it I would give it to them but I didn't
make an issue after they were used to using the
toilet. When I ran out of candy I just told them that
I was out and the next time I went to the store I
would get some more. They continued to use the toilet
and I always gave a verbal praise and made a big deal
of it verbally, but they forgot about the candy by the
time I got to the store and never asked for it again.
When I am trying to get them to pick up and they don't
want to I will make a treat and tell them that they
can have it when they are done and praise them all the
way while they are cleaning. When they are done we sit
together and enjoy the treat in our clean house and
have a family time and talk about how nice it is to
work together and then when the work is done we can
all play together. That way it isn't like a bribe or a
reward but rather time we are using to learn and bond.
Also, I don't do this every time so they don't get
used to having a treat for doing something they should
do anyway. Corallyn
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> Thanks, Lee. I don't want to start on theThat isn't necessarily true. I know when I potty
> reward-system thing,
> cos afaics, it just lends to bigger and bigger
> rewards, and more
> and more reliance on external motivation, but since
> the kids have
> no internal motivation to sort their stuff out, I
> don't know where to
> start.
trained my children, I would give them a piece of
candy when they used the toilet. I did this for a day
or two. Then quit offering the candy after that. If
they asked for it I would give it to them but I didn't
make an issue after they were used to using the
toilet. When I ran out of candy I just told them that
I was out and the next time I went to the store I
would get some more. They continued to use the toilet
and I always gave a verbal praise and made a big deal
of it verbally, but they forgot about the candy by the
time I got to the store and never asked for it again.
When I am trying to get them to pick up and they don't
want to I will make a treat and tell them that they
can have it when they are done and praise them all the
way while they are cleaning. When they are done we sit
together and enjoy the treat in our clean house and
have a family time and talk about how nice it is to
work together and then when the work is done we can
all play together. That way it isn't like a bribe or a
reward but rather time we are using to learn and bond.
Also, I don't do this every time so they don't get
used to having a treat for doing something they should
do anyway. Corallyn
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Cathie _
>Tracy, I didn't realize your kids were so little. Mine would never be able
>Am I expecting too much of a 4&1/2 and 3&1/2yo, ther are capable
>of doing the tidying up, apart from the books, which either me or dh
>do? The other problem is that when dh has the kids, he usually
>has work to do (like last night,) so they do their thing while he does
>his, or he wants peace and quiet to watch tv... Can you tell it's not
>the kids I'm annoyed with???
to clean up their room at that age. I think it gets to overwhelming. I would
always have to be there with them to say, "Ok, now you pick up the legos",
and " now get all the dirty clothes to the laundry room".
As far as husband training, in 18 years I have gotten nowhere with mine,
someone else will have to take that subject.
Cathie
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Cathie _
>Your house has too much stuff in it.I totally agree. I am also taking out trash bags full of stuff. My older
boys realise how much this helps and will do it on their own now. But Jenny,
my 3, can't do that, so I got rid of 2 trash bags of stuff while she was
asleep and she hasn't even missed it. She also loved having all her Barbie
stuff in a bag and put it all away by herself yesterday.
It does get better as they get older-sort of. They can do more work, but
they fight with each other all the time. Looking back on it, I enjoyed the
years when they were young and nice much more even if I did have to do more
cleaning-constant fighting is worse than a messy house.
Now doesn't that give you something to look forward to!!
Cathie
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[email protected]
Hi all,
I just wanted to add my thoughts here. My dd (3) is a big mess maker, like
most 3 yr olds. I have started say "Mommy is going to take a shower and when
I get done we have to ............(whatever) then we will
do.........."(something she really enjoys, like reading tons of new books,
playing imagination games, going to park, pool or anything else she would
love to do. Several times (more often than not) by the time I finished with
my shower she has finished the chore by herself almost to my satisfaction.
If it is not, I just say " I see............, here let me help you" and then
I finish up. I try to avoid this though so I don't dampen her self-estem for
doing a job that she took the motivation to do herself. My mother, always
did this to me and drove me crazy. If she didn't like how I did it, I always
felt she should have just done it herself. This seems to be working for us
now.....yipppy!
I hope this helps
Julie
I just wanted to add my thoughts here. My dd (3) is a big mess maker, like
most 3 yr olds. I have started say "Mommy is going to take a shower and when
I get done we have to ............(whatever) then we will
do.........."(something she really enjoys, like reading tons of new books,
playing imagination games, going to park, pool or anything else she would
love to do. Several times (more often than not) by the time I finished with
my shower she has finished the chore by herself almost to my satisfaction.
If it is not, I just say " I see............, here let me help you" and then
I finish up. I try to avoid this though so I don't dampen her self-estem for
doing a job that she took the motivation to do herself. My mother, always
did this to me and drove me crazy. If she didn't like how I did it, I always
felt she should have just done it herself. This seems to be working for us
now.....yipppy!
I hope this helps
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/00 7:20:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< i came down and opened the living-room door to find
they'd picked everything up and put it all on the sofas so i could
vac! I cried happy tears that day!!!
Tracy
Tooo cute! How clever your little ones are! I hope you wrote this down in
their baby books to remember when they have kids of their own.
Julie
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< i came down and opened the living-room door to find
they'd picked everything up and put it all on the sofas so i could
vac! I cried happy tears that day!!!
Tracy
>>Tracy,
Tooo cute! How clever your little ones are! I hope you wrote this down in
their baby books to remember when they have kids of their own.
Julie
Tracy Oldfield
right. yeah, that seems sensible. i just don't keep stuff like that in
the house, it gets eaten before we can use it for that! and the
whole thing takes too long for me to be able to say that we can do
something together after, they usually have lost interest/ found
something else to do. though i could use that... it's kind-of not my
problem now, since i'm not there on a mon night for a few weeks,
but then again i don't want dh being heavy-handed about it, makes
problems the day after then...
your set-up isn't the star-chart thing though, is it? it's more like
positive reinforcement training than that.
Thanks for the thoughts
Tracy
the house, it gets eaten before we can use it for that! and the
whole thing takes too long for me to be able to say that we can do
something together after, they usually have lost interest/ found
something else to do. though i could use that... it's kind-of not my
problem now, since i'm not there on a mon night for a few weeks,
but then again i don't want dh being heavy-handed about it, makes
problems the day after then...
your set-up isn't the star-chart thing though, is it? it's more like
positive reinforcement training than that.
Thanks for the thoughts
Tracy
On 18 Jul 2000, at 21:04, Corallyn Berger wrote:
> That isn't necessarily true. I know when I potty
> trained my children, I would give them a piece of
> candy when they used the toilet. I did this for a day
> or two. Then quit offering the candy after that. If
> they asked for it I would give it to them but I didn't
> make an issue after they were used to using the
> toilet. When I ran out of candy I just told them that
> I was out and the next time I went to the store I
> would get some more. They continued to use the toilet
> and I always gave a verbal praise and made a big deal
> of it verbally, but they forgot about the candy by the
> time I got to the store and never asked for it again.
> When I am trying to get them to pick up and they don't
> want to I will make a treat and tell them that they
> can have it when they are done and praise them all the
> way while they are cleaning. When they are done we sit
> together and enjoy the treat in our clean house and
> have a family time and talk about how nice it is to
> work together and then when the work is done we can
> all play together. That way it isn't like a bribe or a
> reward but rather time we are using to learn and bond.
> Also, I don't do this every time so they don't get
> used to having a treat for doing something they should
> do anyway. Corallyn
>
Tracy Oldfield
Julie, is she an only? i sometimes think it's tons easier to
organise to do this kind of thing with an only. I get tired just from
dealing with both of them, and as someone pointed out, the older
one is a very insistent person (lovely child, but just has a way of
getting in your face...) I am making more effort to do stuff like
games with them. This is only this week, so i don't really know
whether it's making a difference or not. Ah, well, I'll keep on
keeping on. There was a programme on the telly earlier about
problem kids. Made me realise i'm doing pretty well, really <g>
Tracy
organise to do this kind of thing with an only. I get tired just from
dealing with both of them, and as someone pointed out, the older
one is a very insistent person (lovely child, but just has a way of
getting in your face...) I am making more effort to do stuff like
games with them. This is only this week, so i don't really know
whether it's making a difference or not. Ah, well, I'll keep on
keeping on. There was a programme on the telly earlier about
problem kids. Made me realise i'm doing pretty well, really <g>
Tracy
On 19 Jul 2000, at 8:41, Jaam1224@... wrote:
Hi all,
I just wanted to add my thoughts here. My dd (3) is a big mess
maker, like
most 3 yr olds. I have started say "Mommy is going to take a
shower and when
I get done we have to ............(whatever) then we will
do.........."(something she really enjoys, like reading tons of new
books,
playing imagination games, going to park, pool or anything else
she would
love to do. Several times (more often than not) by the time I
finished with
my shower she has finished the chore by herself almost to my
satisfaction.
If it is not, I just say " I see............, here let me help you" and then
I finish up. I try to avoid this though so I don't dampen her self-
estem for
doing a job that she took the motivation to do herself. My mother,
always
did this to me and drove me crazy. If she didn't like how I did it, I
always
felt she should have just done it herself. This seems to be working
for us
now.....yipppy!
I hope this helps
Julie
Tracy Oldfield
no, but i'll tell them, just like i tell them about when heather got in
with the donkeys at the show-farm we visit...
Tracy
with the donkeys at the show-farm we visit...
Tracy
On 19 Jul 2000, at 8:43, Jaam1224@... wrote:
Tracy,
Tooo cute! How clever your little ones are! I hope
you wrote this down in
their baby books to remember when they have kids of
their own.
Julie
Corallyn Berger
--- Tracy Oldfield <tracy.oldfield@...>
wrote:
only used that for potty training, but I bake and
While the kids are tidying up I will put something in
the oven and tell them that if they are finished
before the treat is then they can have the treat. This
isn't something I use all the time. Depends on the
situation. Also, sometimes instead of a treat I will
tell them they can't go play until they are finished.
This works just as well. Other times they don't get
either just knowing that they helped mommy clean up
and then they are off to do what they want. It just
depends on the situation and everyones mood. Corallyn
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wrote:
> right. yeah, that seems sensible. i just don'tI don't usually keep candies in the house either. I
> keep stuff like that in
> the house, it gets eaten before we can use it for
> that!
only used that for potty training, but I bake and
While the kids are tidying up I will put something in
the oven and tell them that if they are finished
before the treat is then they can have the treat. This
isn't something I use all the time. Depends on the
situation. Also, sometimes instead of a treat I will
tell them they can't go play until they are finished.
This works just as well. Other times they don't get
either just knowing that they helped mommy clean up
and then they are off to do what they want. It just
depends on the situation and everyones mood. Corallyn
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