hhhmmmm
Sue
Hi, LOL. I am the one who wrote, she reached out to me and said, "we
need to support each other because we are homeschooling". Besides
telling her that I can't sign a statement of faith and I won't
belong to the group, I also told her that I grew up in a crappy home
and my role models my entire school life were my homosexual PE
teachers and they encouraged us girls in sports and kept me out of
trouble so I have nothing against homosexuals. As a Catholic
homeschooler she still opened her heart to me. There is a lot more
to, "we homeschooled and we became friends". Did I sign a statement
of faith that I believed something I didn't? NO. I couldn't hang
with that group. Did she reach out and make the connection because I
was a homeschooler? Yes. Did she have a bunch of girls like me? Yes
(I had one). Did she have an infant die days after it's birth? Yes.
(happened to me just a few years prior to meeting her so the
connection was a gift, that she would share her pain with me and
know mine was even a bigger gift). She was an incredibly gracious
person and I didn't need to believe everything she did nor did I
need to brain wash her into thinking my way. I was desperate for
some connection because I was homeschooling with no one else. When I
first started homeschooling 7 years ago I was just insecure about
all of it. Not anymore!! You all kept me connected too. Will I open
my heart to you because you homeschool? You betcha! Will I open it
so wide to be harmed/fooled/brainwashed? Nah! Sue
need to support each other because we are homeschooling". Besides
telling her that I can't sign a statement of faith and I won't
belong to the group, I also told her that I grew up in a crappy home
and my role models my entire school life were my homosexual PE
teachers and they encouraged us girls in sports and kept me out of
trouble so I have nothing against homosexuals. As a Catholic
homeschooler she still opened her heart to me. There is a lot more
to, "we homeschooled and we became friends". Did I sign a statement
of faith that I believed something I didn't? NO. I couldn't hang
with that group. Did she reach out and make the connection because I
was a homeschooler? Yes. Did she have a bunch of girls like me? Yes
(I had one). Did she have an infant die days after it's birth? Yes.
(happened to me just a few years prior to meeting her so the
connection was a gift, that she would share her pain with me and
know mine was even a bigger gift). She was an incredibly gracious
person and I didn't need to believe everything she did nor did I
need to brain wash her into thinking my way. I was desperate for
some connection because I was homeschooling with no one else. When I
first started homeschooling 7 years ago I was just insecure about
all of it. Not anymore!! You all kept me connected too. Will I open
my heart to you because you homeschool? You betcha! Will I open it
so wide to be harmed/fooled/brainwashed? Nah! Sue
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 7, 2006, at 8:56 PM, Sue wrote:
they're also homeschoolers. They don't owe us anything simply
because we're homeschoolers.
(Substitute "unschooler" in there if you want, and the facts remain
the same.)
Sanrda
> Will I open itThat's not my concern. We don't owe others anything simply because
> so wide to be harmed/fooled/brainwashed? Nah!
they're also homeschoolers. They don't owe us anything simply
because we're homeschoolers.
(Substitute "unschooler" in there if you want, and the facts remain
the same.)
Sanrda
[email protected]
I can certainly relate, that is what I really love about the homeschool
group I am in, we are all types of homeschoolers and religions and we just
relate as homeschoolers and respect each others beliefs. It never comes up anyway
we just like each other for who we are.
Homeschooling is a deep bond. It is great when we all have mutual respect and
do not get judgemental. A real turn off to me is to walk into a situation and
have the first question be
"what church do you go to and buy the way here is a document you must sign to
associate with us"
I enjoyed your letter.
A fellow homeschooler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
group I am in, we are all types of homeschoolers and religions and we just
relate as homeschoolers and respect each others beliefs. It never comes up anyway
we just like each other for who we are.
Homeschooling is a deep bond. It is great when we all have mutual respect and
do not get judgemental. A real turn off to me is to walk into a situation and
have the first question be
"what church do you go to and buy the way here is a document you must sign to
associate with us"
I enjoyed your letter.
A fellow homeschooler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 8, 2006, at 5:29 PM, TheFadels@... wrote:
group must have some homogeneity.
Groups have suffered grief over what kinds of snacks to have, whether
water pistols are okay, wether kids can play-fight, whether Harry
Potters name can be uttered, whether people spank (or won't spank) or
shame (or refuse to "control") or whether kids can have a soda or
whether kids have to wear shoes. Before I was homeschooling but I
was in a mother/toddler field trip co-op called "Moms with Something
Extra," there were tussles over all of the above, and people would
leave, or choose their field trips based on who had organized them
(and so presumably would be "in control").
I don't respect the beliefs of people who spank their children and
tell them they'll go to heaven while other kids burn for eternity,
and they don't respect that I let my kids play video games, watch
South Park and wear t-shirts with "corporate" art on them.
If you have a group where people don't have those problems, cool.
Sandra
> I can certainly relate, that is what I really love about theBut if that's happening and you like each other for who you are, the
> homeschool
> group I am in, we are all types of homeschoolers and religions
> and we just
> relate as homeschoolers and respect each others beliefs. It never
> comes up anyway
> we just like each other for who we are.
group must have some homogeneity.
Groups have suffered grief over what kinds of snacks to have, whether
water pistols are okay, wether kids can play-fight, whether Harry
Potters name can be uttered, whether people spank (or won't spank) or
shame (or refuse to "control") or whether kids can have a soda or
whether kids have to wear shoes. Before I was homeschooling but I
was in a mother/toddler field trip co-op called "Moms with Something
Extra," there were tussles over all of the above, and people would
leave, or choose their field trips based on who had organized them
(and so presumably would be "in control").
I don't respect the beliefs of people who spank their children and
tell them they'll go to heaven while other kids burn for eternity,
and they don't respect that I let my kids play video games, watch
South Park and wear t-shirts with "corporate" art on them.
If you have a group where people don't have those problems, cool.
Sandra
[email protected]
That is what I was trying to get across. We have exactly that type of group.
We do not make judgments about each other and how we run our lives. I think
we all came together because we did not fit in other groups.
I love people who are secure enough to let others be themselves. To live as
you believe and allow others to do the same is, to me, the mark of a person who
is comfortable in their own skin and not threatened by those who may be
different from them.
To have the privilege of knowing those different from ourselves helps us be
more broad minded an excepting of all people. I have learned from my friends
that each mother seems to know what is best for her particular family and if
you respect the person as an individual you will not try to change them or let
them change you. It is amazing how much we learn from each other because we
all feel safe to be who we are
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We do not make judgments about each other and how we run our lives. I think
we all came together because we did not fit in other groups.
I love people who are secure enough to let others be themselves. To live as
you believe and allow others to do the same is, to me, the mark of a person who
is comfortable in their own skin and not threatened by those who may be
different from them.
To have the privilege of knowing those different from ourselves helps us be
more broad minded an excepting of all people. I have learned from my friends
that each mother seems to know what is best for her particular family and if
you respect the person as an individual you will not try to change them or let
them change you. It is amazing how much we learn from each other because we
all feel safe to be who we are
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sue
Thanks. I will say the journey has made me evolve as a person and
definetly made me "Mature". I do have to say I owe my start to La
Leche League. They grounded me in my self- trusting myself as a
mother and I have never once left that path. Sue
definetly made me "Mature". I do have to say I owe my start to La
Leche League. They grounded me in my self- trusting myself as a
mother and I have never once left that path. Sue
--- In [email protected], TheFadels@... wrote:
>
> I can certainly relate, that is what I really love about the
homeschool
> group I am in, we are all types of homeschoolers and religions
and we just
> relate as homeschoolers and respect each others beliefs. It never
comes up anyway
> we just like each other for who we are.
> Homeschooling is a deep bond. It is great when we all have mutual
respect and
> do not get judgemental. A real turn off to me is to walk into a
situation and
> have the first question be
> "what church do you go to and buy the way here is a document you
must sign to
> associate with us"
>
> I enjoyed your letter.
>
> A fellow homeschooler
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
Many Moms in my group say the same---------La Leche League
Many of our members are former leaders
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Many of our members are former leaders
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 8, 2006, at 8:24 PM, TheFadels@... wrote:
If your philosophy is right, and you can simply accept ANY other
mother's actions, why can't you be in ANY random group?
-=-To live as
you believe and allow others to do the same is, to me, the mark of a
person who
is comfortable in their own skin and not threatened by those who may be
different from them. -=-
So you think the statement of faith groups should drop that
requirement and just let anyone be in their group and not feel
threatened by Harry Potter clubs or discussions of what was on the
Simpsons?
-=-To have the privilege of knowing those different from ourselves
helps us be
more broad minded an excepting of all people.-=-
Are you broadminded enough to be accepting of the statement of faith
people? Do you think mothers who spank know what is best for their
particular families? Do you think mothers who send children to bed
without dinner because they didn't finish their
"schoolwork" (assigned by mom in homeschooling, or by a teacher at
school) knows what is best for her particular family?
-=-. I have learned from my friends
that each mother seems to know what is best for her particular family
and if
you respect the person as an individual you will not try to change
them or let
them change you.-=-
This is disturbing to me, really.
Do you think mothers who drink themselves to unconsciousness a few
times a week and leave the children with a wakeful stepfather or
"mom's boyfriend" know what is best for their particular families?
I don't WANT to be that broadminded, personally.
Do you draw the line at the self selected unschooling group for the
statement about mothers knowing best?
The same way a fundamentalist Christian group wants to protect their
children from what they see as evil influences (which can be no more
satanic than girls wearing shorts or boys with long hair), I want to
protect my children from parents who are cruel to their children and
swat them and make them sit in a hot car while other children are
playing. I didn't even want them to SEE that "godly" behavior when
they were little, and so I couldn't begin to associate our family
with those groups.
"Respecting all people equally" is the same as respecting nobody
whatsoever.
Being "completely nonjudgmental" is the same as not knowing better
from worse.
And I've found many who coo about how wonderful it is to be
nonjudgmental, and turns out they really hate judgmental people. <g>
So those who claim to accept everything are some of the first to get
mad at me for saying "Really? Have you really thought about what
you're saying?" They can't accept that!
Sandra
> That is what I was trying to get across. We have exactly that typeBut why (I'm asking hypothetically) did you not fit in other groups?
> of group.
> We do not make judgments about each other and how we run our lives.
> I think
> we all came together because we did not fit in other groups.
If your philosophy is right, and you can simply accept ANY other
mother's actions, why can't you be in ANY random group?
-=-To live as
you believe and allow others to do the same is, to me, the mark of a
person who
is comfortable in their own skin and not threatened by those who may be
different from them. -=-
So you think the statement of faith groups should drop that
requirement and just let anyone be in their group and not feel
threatened by Harry Potter clubs or discussions of what was on the
Simpsons?
-=-To have the privilege of knowing those different from ourselves
helps us be
more broad minded an excepting of all people.-=-
Are you broadminded enough to be accepting of the statement of faith
people? Do you think mothers who spank know what is best for their
particular families? Do you think mothers who send children to bed
without dinner because they didn't finish their
"schoolwork" (assigned by mom in homeschooling, or by a teacher at
school) knows what is best for her particular family?
-=-. I have learned from my friends
that each mother seems to know what is best for her particular family
and if
you respect the person as an individual you will not try to change
them or let
them change you.-=-
This is disturbing to me, really.
Do you think mothers who drink themselves to unconsciousness a few
times a week and leave the children with a wakeful stepfather or
"mom's boyfriend" know what is best for their particular families?
I don't WANT to be that broadminded, personally.
Do you draw the line at the self selected unschooling group for the
statement about mothers knowing best?
The same way a fundamentalist Christian group wants to protect their
children from what they see as evil influences (which can be no more
satanic than girls wearing shorts or boys with long hair), I want to
protect my children from parents who are cruel to their children and
swat them and make them sit in a hot car while other children are
playing. I didn't even want them to SEE that "godly" behavior when
they were little, and so I couldn't begin to associate our family
with those groups.
"Respecting all people equally" is the same as respecting nobody
whatsoever.
Being "completely nonjudgmental" is the same as not knowing better
from worse.
And I've found many who coo about how wonderful it is to be
nonjudgmental, and turns out they really hate judgmental people. <g>
So those who claim to accept everything are some of the first to get
mad at me for saying "Really? Have you really thought about what
you're saying?" They can't accept that!
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 8, 2006, at 10:58 PM, Sue wrote:
partner" statements. "Kirby knows what he's doing," a leader said,
and it's been true always!
Sandra
> I do have to say I owe my start to LaLa Leche League got me on the path too, mostly with their "be his
> Leche League. They grounded me in my self- trusting myself as a
> mother and I have never once left that path. Sue
partner" statements. "Kirby knows what he's doing," a leader said,
and it's been true always!
Sandra
kazitetalibuse
> And I've found many who coo about how wonderful it is to beI used to have a friend who believed that I would eventually end up in
> nonjudgmental, and turns out they really hate judgmental people. <g>
hell because I was not of the same religion as she was. We had a long
discussion about the fact that she would pray to receive guidance
every time she spoke to me so as to find the right words to turn me on
the right path.
I couldn't wrap my head around it. I felt strongly that tolerating the
beliefs of others is important. On the other hand in this case,
tolerating her beliefs meant tolerating her intolerance and judgment
of my beliefs. If I judged her for it, I would just join her in her
intolerance. Yet I felt disrespected. I felt patronized. I didn't feel
that our relationship was equal.
I didn't figure out how to reconcile my wish to accept her beliefs and
yet feel comfortable and accepted for who I am in that relationship.
Renata
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 9, 2006, at 10:48 AM, kazitetalibuse wrote:
"tolerant," that can be a big problem.
If you make your priority peace for your children, then you will have
to judge what adds more to peace, and what detracts from it. You
won't be able to tolerate dangerous or scary things.
Mindfulness requires judgment. Using good judgment isn't "being
judgmental." Without judgment there can be no mindful thought.
Without choosing what to tolerate and what to reject, you can't make
any choices at all.
Sandra
> I couldn't wrap my head around it. I felt strongly that tolerating theIf your priority and identity are in being "non judgmental" or
> beliefs of others is important. On the other hand in this case,
> tolerating her beliefs meant tolerating her intolerance and judgment
> of my beliefs. If I judged her for it, I would just join her in her
> intolerance.
"tolerant," that can be a big problem.
If you make your priority peace for your children, then you will have
to judge what adds more to peace, and what detracts from it. You
won't be able to tolerate dangerous or scary things.
Mindfulness requires judgment. Using good judgment isn't "being
judgmental." Without judgment there can be no mindful thought.
Without choosing what to tolerate and what to reject, you can't make
any choices at all.
Sandra
kazitetalibuse
>I have read and reread a lot of books on mindfulness. I have attended
> Mindfulness requires judgment. Using good judgment isn't "being
> judgmental." Without judgment there can be no mindful thought.
> Without choosing what to tolerate and what to reject, you can't make
> any choices at all.
>
many talks on mindfulness. I have practiced mindfulness to the best of
my ability in structured and unstructured settings as well as in my
daily life. I have never read or heard this opinion about how
mindfulness functions.
I understand minfulness as a state of mind that does not judge, just
is aware of what is in the present moment, be it my own judmental
thoughts or reactive feelings.
I am concerned about being judgmental of others.
And I agree that I
need to use my judgment to make choices. But I would want my judgment
to come out of mindfulness - my awareness of my feelings and
reactions; and not the other way around as the quote seems to suggest.
>>Without judgment there can be no mindful thought.<<I would say that mindful thought comes out of awareness of ones
feelings and reactions and out of wisdom. Is wisdom judgment? I don't
see myself as particularly wise, but my hunch is that wisdom goes
beyond judgment to something deeper. Perhaps it's that part of us that
has compassion for others as well as ourselves and doesn't feel the
need to change or persuade others to see things our way.
I can also use my mindful awareness of my reactive judgment to
question these initial reactions and feelings. Do I really need a
friend who agrees with everything I do and with all my views? Or can I
accept a friend whose religious beliefs are not accepting of some
aspects of my life (as long as they do not harm my children, my family
life, my self-acceptance)and remain her friend? Can I generate that
kind of non-resistance and patience and not-knowing (how things will
work out in the long run) and confidence? Or do I need to feel in
control and keep looking for friends that will make me feel safe? Safe
in the sense that my limits and comfort levels are not stretched or
questioned...
>Without choosing what to tolerate and what to reject, you can't makeSometimes I don't make choices on purpose. I purposefully try to stay
> any choices at all.<
on that unsteady ground of not knowing, not making decisions. I have
noticed that my judgment of what to tolerate and what to reject
changes over time as my understanding of myself and others changes. I
am not so sure any more that I have all the answers or that there are
such things as final answers. So I pause and mindfully observe my
judgment and not act. And I wait.I suppose waiting is a choice, too.
So here I go again in spirals of paradoxes, lol.
Renata
[email protected]
I totally agree with " I understand minfulness as a state of mind that does
not judge, just
is aware of what is in the present moment, be it my own judmental
thoughts or reactive feelings." I think the other definition is telling in
that it encourages tolerance------------ when we "tolerate" others different
from ourselves rather than "respect"
the differances between us it is more of a judgemental act. Leading ones own
life and letting others lead theirs is a true "mindful philosophy" in my
opinion. Of course, there is awareness, that is a given.
What an interesting discussion, I am so interested in the opinions of others.
It make me more aware
Knowing that one is "tolerated" is not a warm feeling , being respected
feels good
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
not judge, just
is aware of what is in the present moment, be it my own judmental
thoughts or reactive feelings." I think the other definition is telling in
that it encourages tolerance------------ when we "tolerate" others different
from ourselves rather than "respect"
the differances between us it is more of a judgemental act. Leading ones own
life and letting others lead theirs is a true "mindful philosophy" in my
opinion. Of course, there is awareness, that is a given.
What an interesting discussion, I am so interested in the opinions of others.
It make me more aware
Knowing that one is "tolerated" is not a warm feeling , being respected
feels good
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 9, 2006, at 2:35 PM, kazitetalibuse wrote:
But lots of judgment and decision making got you to the place where
you sat down to meditate.
If all things are equal, you could've shot up and gone to a bar
instead. But you judged one place, time and set of behaviors to be
better for you than the other.
-=-I would say that mindful thought comes out of awareness of ones
feelings and reactions and out of wisdom.-=-
Feelings and reactions involve judgments, don't they? Whether you
are drawn toward something or repulsed doesn't even necessarily take
conscious thought, but it's making choices throughout the day that
gets you where you want to be concerning children's happiness,
availability of food, etc.
-=-Is wisdom judgment? I don't
see myself as particularly wise, but my hunch is that wisdom goes
beyond judgment to something deeper. Perhaps it's that part of us that
has compassion for others as well as ourselves and doesn't feel the
need to change or persuade others to see things our way.-=-
Some of the people who are least involved in trying to change the way
others live are monks—Buddhist monks, or Christian monks. But what
do THEY do? They move into walled compounds and let some other
person tell them how to live. So there's a core of hypocrisy in
that, I think. Once one is safely separated from the people they
wish would change, it's easy to say "Live and let live." Once one is
in an unschooling group full of La Leche League leaders, heck YES
it's easy to say "We all respect one another." You've already
eliminated most of the rest of the world.
The babysitting co-op I was in when Kirby was little had a minor
blowup about one mom who didn't live the way she talked about
living. Her bathroom was full of visible, easily accessible
cleansers and medications on low, open shelves (kind of surprising
that anyone would keep them lower than sink level, or not in a
cabinet) and she swatted her kids if they insisted she pay attention
to them when she was talking to adults. The swat came only after she
would try ignoring them and gesturing them away. One couldn't even
get into that co-op without the approval of the La Leche League based
membership. Still... we didn't all really respect everyone else's
choices. People were worried about leaving their kids at her house.
"Being nonjudgmental" in that case would have been "being a bad mom."
-=-I can also use my mindful awareness of my reactive judgment to
question these initial reactions and feelings. Do I really need a
friend who agrees with everything I do and with all my views? Or can I
accept a friend whose religious beliefs are not accepting of some
aspects of my life (as long as they do not harm my children, my family
life, my self-acceptance)and remain her friend? Can I generate that
kind of non-resistance and patience and not-knowing (how things will
work out in the long run) and confidence? Or do I need to feel in
control and keep looking for friends that will make me feel safe? Safe
in the sense that my limits and comfort levels are not stretched or
questioned...-=-
Yet you didn't join the statement of faith group. Somewhere in there
you judged something.
People will brag about good judgment and being non-judgmental without
seeing any conflict. <g> Probably because a lot of the talking and
writing people do is done in phrases they lift and rearrange.
Thinking as clearly as possible about word choices changed a lot of
things for me in my life. I could live with a dialog made up of
phrases people have used on me, but I chose, consciously and
meaningfully and intentionally, not to parent Kirby with the voices
of my mom and grandmothers, and everything else in my life was
affected by that choice.
Sandra
> I understand minfulness as a state of mind that does not judge, justDuring meditation, sure.
> is aware of what is in the present moment, be it my own judmental
> thoughts or reactive feelings
But lots of judgment and decision making got you to the place where
you sat down to meditate.
If all things are equal, you could've shot up and gone to a bar
instead. But you judged one place, time and set of behaviors to be
better for you than the other.
-=-I would say that mindful thought comes out of awareness of ones
feelings and reactions and out of wisdom.-=-
Feelings and reactions involve judgments, don't they? Whether you
are drawn toward something or repulsed doesn't even necessarily take
conscious thought, but it's making choices throughout the day that
gets you where you want to be concerning children's happiness,
availability of food, etc.
-=-Is wisdom judgment? I don't
see myself as particularly wise, but my hunch is that wisdom goes
beyond judgment to something deeper. Perhaps it's that part of us that
has compassion for others as well as ourselves and doesn't feel the
need to change or persuade others to see things our way.-=-
Some of the people who are least involved in trying to change the way
others live are monks—Buddhist monks, or Christian monks. But what
do THEY do? They move into walled compounds and let some other
person tell them how to live. So there's a core of hypocrisy in
that, I think. Once one is safely separated from the people they
wish would change, it's easy to say "Live and let live." Once one is
in an unschooling group full of La Leche League leaders, heck YES
it's easy to say "We all respect one another." You've already
eliminated most of the rest of the world.
The babysitting co-op I was in when Kirby was little had a minor
blowup about one mom who didn't live the way she talked about
living. Her bathroom was full of visible, easily accessible
cleansers and medications on low, open shelves (kind of surprising
that anyone would keep them lower than sink level, or not in a
cabinet) and she swatted her kids if they insisted she pay attention
to them when she was talking to adults. The swat came only after she
would try ignoring them and gesturing them away. One couldn't even
get into that co-op without the approval of the La Leche League based
membership. Still... we didn't all really respect everyone else's
choices. People were worried about leaving their kids at her house.
"Being nonjudgmental" in that case would have been "being a bad mom."
-=-I can also use my mindful awareness of my reactive judgment to
question these initial reactions and feelings. Do I really need a
friend who agrees with everything I do and with all my views? Or can I
accept a friend whose religious beliefs are not accepting of some
aspects of my life (as long as they do not harm my children, my family
life, my self-acceptance)and remain her friend? Can I generate that
kind of non-resistance and patience and not-knowing (how things will
work out in the long run) and confidence? Or do I need to feel in
control and keep looking for friends that will make me feel safe? Safe
in the sense that my limits and comfort levels are not stretched or
questioned...-=-
Yet you didn't join the statement of faith group. Somewhere in there
you judged something.
People will brag about good judgment and being non-judgmental without
seeing any conflict. <g> Probably because a lot of the talking and
writing people do is done in phrases they lift and rearrange.
Thinking as clearly as possible about word choices changed a lot of
things for me in my life. I could live with a dialog made up of
phrases people have used on me, but I chose, consciously and
meaningfully and intentionally, not to parent Kirby with the voices
of my mom and grandmothers, and everything else in my life was
affected by that choice.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
> Leading ones ownDoes that mean policemen can never live mindfully?
> life and letting others lead theirs is a true "mindful philosophy"
> in my
> opinion.
If your neighbors are running a meth lab, and their little kids ask
you for food sometimes, do you let them lead their lives?
You know they have kids in the house and are dealing with dangerous
chemicals. Live and let live?
-=-when we "tolerate" others different
from ourselves rather than "respect"
the differances between us it is more of a judgemental act.-=-
Judging and tolerating aren't acts. They're inactions, with values
applied.
Nothing can be valued without making a judgment.
No one can have priorities without making judgments about what's more
and less important.
-=-Knowing that one is "tolerated" is not a warm feeling , being
respected
feels good-=-
Being respected isn't the same as having someone say "I respect your
opinion," when clearly they don't, or when they don't even know what
your opinion IS, or they have a vague idea, and you know they don't
begin to "respect" it but they say "I respect your opinion."
The worst is when someone says "I respect all people equally." WHAT!?
Or "I respect all religions." WHAT!?
That's not possible. The only way it's nearly possible is if the
person really means to say "I'm afraid to form or state an opinion,
so I will attempt to be equally ignorant of all things."
Sandra
kazitetalibuse
>Not so. My husband was a buddhist monk in a secluded jungle monastery
> Some of the people who are least involved in trying to change the way
> others live are monksBuddhist monks, or Christian monks. But what
> do THEY do? They move into walled compounds and let some other
> person tell them how to live. So there's a core of hypocrisy in
> that, I think. Once one is safely separated from the people they
> wish would change, it's easy to say "Live and let live."
in Thailand. He was there in order to examine and change his life not
to change others. There is no hypocrisy in that, just a personal
decision to follow a certain path with faith and awareness. This path
consisted of other people telling him how to live while he was there.
Not how to live in the sense of what life is all about, but in the
sense of what tools and methods were used in this monastery and for
what purposes. There was no wish that other people would change. And
there was also no safe separation. The community of monks still
afforded plenty of interaction of variety of characters. Daily visits
from villagers and daily walks to beg for food offered other
interactions. And as anyone who has ever been on an extended retreat
knows, separation from other people and the usual activities of life,
are not "safe". They actually put you face to face with yourself. It
is not about "letting live", it is about honesty, courage to truly see
what's going on, patience and faith that you can handle it and really
to see yourself instead of hiding behind other people and activites.
No hypocrisy in this at all.
>Oh I never said I don't judge. I said I am concerned about judging
> Yet you didn't join the statement of faith group. Somewhere in there
> you judged something.
others and that I attempt to question my feelings, reactions, and
judgments.
I was never invited to "join the statement of faith group." I think
you might have me mixed up with another person here.
>I agree. As I said, I prefer mindful awareness of my feelings and
> People will brag about good judgment and being non-judgmental without
> seeing any conflict. <g> Probably because a lot of the talking and
> writing people do is done in phrases they lift and rearrange.
reactions and judgments together with careful questioning of these to
judging habitually and reactively. I never said that I am
non-judgmental. I am more realistic about myself than that :)
> Thinking as clearly as possible about word choices changed a lot ofMay be examining the words minfulness, good judgment, non-judgmental,
> things for me in my life.
tolerance, respect would be helpful here. As someone here mentioned,
the term "being tolerated" does not feel as good as "being respected."
I think that I was using these as if they were the same thing. I can
see now that there is a difference.
Renata
kazitetalibuse
>Sure he can. He can minfully do his job of enforcing the law and
>
> > Leading ones own
> > life and letting others lead theirs is a true "mindful philosophy"
> > in my
> > opinion.
>
>
> Does that mean policemen can never live mindfully?
protecting citizens.
> If your neighbors are running a meth lab, and their little kids askLivig my life would in this instance mean feeling compassion for these
> you for food sometimes, do you let them lead their lives?
> You know they have kids in the house and are dealing with dangerous
> chemicals. Live and let live?
kids and doing something about protecting them (such as making a phone
call to the appropriate people).
>Actually, these are mental or verbal acts. The inaction is in this
> -=-when we "tolerate" others different
> from ourselves rather than "respect"
> the differances between us it is more of a judgemental act.-=-
>
> Judging and tolerating aren't acts. They're inactions, with values
> applied.
case a physical inaction. The mental and verbal act might have
something to do with values, reflection, decision making etc. or they
might just be habitual, instant reactions of the mind without any
awareness of what is going on.
> Nothing can be valued without making a judgment.I value my relationships with my kids. I don't need to make a judgment
to value these relationships. I am simply aware of this in my heart
and mind.
>My kids are my priority. This "knowing" comes from my instincts as a
> No one can have priorities without making judgments about what's more
> and less important.
mother, and from my awareness of my feelings from moment to moment. I
did not deliberate to make a judgment about this.
>I have opinions about my friends, yet I respect where they are coming
> -=-Knowing that one is "tolerated" is not a warm feeling , being
> respected
> feels good-=-
>
> Being respected isn't the same as having someone say "I respect your
> opinion," when clearly they don't, or when they don't even know what
> your opinion IS, or they have a vague idea, and you know they don't
> begin to "respect" it but they say "I respect your opinion."
>
> The worst is when someone says "I respect all people equally." WHAT!?
> Or "I respect all religions." WHAT!?
>
> That's not possible. The only way it's nearly possible is if the
> person really means to say "I'm afraid to form or state an opinion,
> so I will attempt to be equally ignorant of all things."
from. I fully respect their sovereignty, their lives and opinions that
are different from mine. My opinions have nothing to do with my
respect for them as separate and different from me.
Renata
Ren Allen
" There is no hypocrisy in that, just a personal
decision to follow a certain path with faith and awareness."
I bet your dh is an interesting guy! I know of monasteries that exist
in cities, and people come for sit-in's or learning of some kind.
Monks are usually interacting with all sorts of people. Even the very
secluded monks in "winter, spring, summer, fall" (fabulous movie)
shared their herbal knowledge with visitors.
There is a place called "Great Tree Zen Temple" up here in the
mountains that I've been wanting to visit:
http://www.greattreetemple.org/
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
decision to follow a certain path with faith and awareness."
I bet your dh is an interesting guy! I know of monasteries that exist
in cities, and people come for sit-in's or learning of some kind.
Monks are usually interacting with all sorts of people. Even the very
secluded monks in "winter, spring, summer, fall" (fabulous movie)
shared their herbal knowledge with visitors.
There is a place called "Great Tree Zen Temple" up here in the
mountains that I've been wanting to visit:
http://www.greattreetemple.org/
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Angela S.
<<My kids are my priority. This "knowing" comes from my instincts as a
mother, and from my awareness of my feelings from moment to moment. I
did not deliberate to make a judgment about this.>>
I know plenty of mothers who seem to lack this instinct. It can't be
instinct alone.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
mother, and from my awareness of my feelings from moment to moment. I
did not deliberate to make a judgment about this.>>
I know plenty of mothers who seem to lack this instinct. It can't be
instinct alone.
Angela
game-enthusiast@...
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 9, 2006, at 12:48 PM, kazitetalibuse wrote:
at some time in the future and people in the building were blithely
going on about their business, the compassionate thing would be to
try to get them to understand and get out of the building. Would it
be compassionate to tolerate their different beliefs ;-) That's what
your friend was trying to do. She doesn't just believe you will go to
hell, she knows it, and she was trying to get you out of the
collapsing building.
There's other psychology at work for many people though. It's hard
growing in the understanding of a belief surrounded by people who are
certain a different belief is right.
(New unschoolers living in School-At-Homer (D'Oh!) Land understand
that!)
It can result it angry and fearful behavior as people try to hold
tight to what they're certain is right, and keep other ideas out that
might confuse. It's like building a fortress in hostile territory. It
also accounts for the anger and fear school-at-schoolers sometimes
display towards unschoolers. At the root is "If you're right, then
I'm wrong and I'm torturing myself (and my children) and making all
these sacrifices for nothing."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> she would pray to receive guidanceThink of it this way: If you knew the building were going to collapse
> every time she spoke to me so as to find the right words to turn me on
> the right path.
> I couldn't wrap my head around it.
at some time in the future and people in the building were blithely
going on about their business, the compassionate thing would be to
try to get them to understand and get out of the building. Would it
be compassionate to tolerate their different beliefs ;-) That's what
your friend was trying to do. She doesn't just believe you will go to
hell, she knows it, and she was trying to get you out of the
collapsing building.
There's other psychology at work for many people though. It's hard
growing in the understanding of a belief surrounded by people who are
certain a different belief is right.
(New unschoolers living in School-At-Homer (D'Oh!) Land understand
that!)
It can result it angry and fearful behavior as people try to hold
tight to what they're certain is right, and keep other ideas out that
might confuse. It's like building a fortress in hostile territory. It
also accounts for the anger and fear school-at-schoolers sometimes
display towards unschoolers. At the root is "If you're right, then
I'm wrong and I'm torturing myself (and my children) and making all
these sacrifices for nothing."
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 10, 2006, at 5:49 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
"never" and "always," in part because of all that. I didn't badmouth
school when they were little, except to answer their questions, and I
always tried to say "Some kids like [whatever it was] and some kids
don't," and some kids find lots of friends at school, but others
don't. Like that.
Around me, though, were parents making all kinds of dire predictions
and threats about how vital school was and that homeschoolers would
never get a job, or that homeschooling was the only way and school
was out to destroy children so the kids HAD to do the 'schoolwork'
the parents were assigning, or else they'd have to go back to school,
or that the kids HAD to do the reading lessons the parents were
assigning, or they would turn out like Holly Dodd, unable to read at
the age of ten.
In those cases, tensions were high, and the tensions were created by
the parents making such narrow and absolute (and ultimately
threatening) statements.
Had they balanced a little more lightly in their stance so that
motion one way or the other hadn't toppled them (or more literally,
made them look like liars or indecisive parents), they could have
more easily accepted it when Holly read so well so quickly once she
did read.
It took conscious thought for me to make my children my priority. It
would have been simple, from examples all around me in real life,
media, political chit-chat, for me to focus on career, or money, or
house-as-investment, any of which would have made the kids small
parts of MY life, heirs in the wings who needed to be persuaded not
to mar my investment property, not to need me during business hours,
and ALL those things that are commonly accepted by some-to-many others.
I can't really help that others are using my kids as good examples or
bad examples, but I can continue to examine my own statements and
messages to them and try to make sure I'm not using other people's
kids as good or bad examples, but rather helping them see the range
of life with its upsides and downsides. It's not as easy as it
might seem, and for me it does take conscious decision-making
thought. Sometimes I get into a flow and don't consciously think for
a while, but it's moments or hours, not days.
Sandra
> -=-It can result it angry and fearful behavior as people try to holdI've tried not to make big definite statements to my kids about
> tight to what they're certain is right, and keep other ideas out that
> might confuse. It's like building a fortress in hostile territory. It
> also accounts for the anger and fear school-at-schoolers sometimes
> display towards unschoolers. At the root is "If you're right, then
> I'm wrong and I'm torturing myself (and my children) and making all
> these sacrifices for nothing." -=-
"never" and "always," in part because of all that. I didn't badmouth
school when they were little, except to answer their questions, and I
always tried to say "Some kids like [whatever it was] and some kids
don't," and some kids find lots of friends at school, but others
don't. Like that.
Around me, though, were parents making all kinds of dire predictions
and threats about how vital school was and that homeschoolers would
never get a job, or that homeschooling was the only way and school
was out to destroy children so the kids HAD to do the 'schoolwork'
the parents were assigning, or else they'd have to go back to school,
or that the kids HAD to do the reading lessons the parents were
assigning, or they would turn out like Holly Dodd, unable to read at
the age of ten.
In those cases, tensions were high, and the tensions were created by
the parents making such narrow and absolute (and ultimately
threatening) statements.
Had they balanced a little more lightly in their stance so that
motion one way or the other hadn't toppled them (or more literally,
made them look like liars or indecisive parents), they could have
more easily accepted it when Holly read so well so quickly once she
did read.
It took conscious thought for me to make my children my priority. It
would have been simple, from examples all around me in real life,
media, political chit-chat, for me to focus on career, or money, or
house-as-investment, any of which would have made the kids small
parts of MY life, heirs in the wings who needed to be persuaded not
to mar my investment property, not to need me during business hours,
and ALL those things that are commonly accepted by some-to-many others.
I can't really help that others are using my kids as good examples or
bad examples, but I can continue to examine my own statements and
messages to them and try to make sure I'm not using other people's
kids as good or bad examples, but rather helping them see the range
of life with its upsides and downsides. It's not as easy as it
might seem, and for me it does take conscious decision-making
thought. Sometimes I get into a flow and don't consciously think for
a while, but it's moments or hours, not days.
Sandra
[email protected]
In my responces and opinions I guess i made the assumtion that we were, for conversation sake ,assuming legal behavior. I agree that when we see illegal acts or witness dangerous or abusive behavior we all have a moral obligation to step in. When I say moral, I am not speaking from a religious point of view. I am speaking about common sense. I love the discussion and other responces.
-----Original Message-----
From: kazitetalibuse <acudoc@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:27:09 -0000
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: hhhmmmm
protecting citizens.
kids and doing something about protecting them (such as making a phone
call to the appropriate people).
case a physical inaction. The mental and verbal act might have
something to do with values, reflection, decision making etc. or they
might just be habitual, instant reactions of the mind without any
awareness of what is going on.
to value these relationships. I am simply aware of this in my heart
and mind.
mother, and from my awareness of my feelings from moment to moment. I
did not deliberate to make a judgment about this.
from. I fully respect their sovereignty, their lives and opinions that
are different from mine. My opinions have nothing to do with my
respect for them as separate and different from me.
Renata
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-----Original Message-----
From: kazitetalibuse <acudoc@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 00:27:09 -0000
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: hhhmmmm
>Sure he can. He can minfully do his job of enforcing the law and
>
> > Leading ones own
> > life and letting others lead theirs is a true "mindful philosophy"
> > in my
> > opinion.
>
>
> Does that mean policemen can never live mindfully?
protecting citizens.
> If your neighbors are running a meth lab, and their little kids askLivig my life would in this instance mean feeling compassion for these
> you for food sometimes, do you let them lead their lives?
> You know they have kids in the house and are dealing with dangerous
> chemicals. Live and let live?
kids and doing something about protecting them (such as making a phone
call to the appropriate people).
>Actually, these are mental or verbal acts. The inaction is in this
> -=-when we "tolerate" others different
> from ourselves rather than "respect"
> the differances between us it is more of a judgemental act.-=-
>
> Judging and tolerating aren't acts. They're inactions, with values
> applied.
case a physical inaction. The mental and verbal act might have
something to do with values, reflection, decision making etc. or they
might just be habitual, instant reactions of the mind without any
awareness of what is going on.
> Nothing can be valued without making a judgment.I value my relationships with my kids. I don't need to make a judgment
to value these relationships. I am simply aware of this in my heart
and mind.
>My kids are my priority. This "knowing" comes from my instincts as a
> No one can have priorities without making judgments about what's more
> and less important.
mother, and from my awareness of my feelings from moment to moment. I
did not deliberate to make a judgment about this.
>I have opinions about my friends, yet I respect where they are coming
> -=-Knowing that one is "tolerated" is not a warm feeling , being
> respected
> feels good-=-
>
> Being respected isn't the same as having someone say "I respect your
> opinion," when clearly they don't, or when they don't even know what
> your opinion IS, or they have a vague idea, and you know they don't
> begin to "respect" it but they say "I respect your opinion."
>
> The worst is when someone says "I respect all people equally." WHAT!?
> Or "I respect all religions." WHAT!?
>
> That's not possible. The only way it's nearly possible is if the
> person really means to say "I'm afraid to form or state an opinion,
> so I will attempt to be equally ignorant of all things."
from. I fully respect their sovereignty, their lives and opinions that
are different from mine. My opinions have nothing to do with my
respect for them as separate and different from me.
Renata
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]