Teaching and ants
M Walker
Scientists observing how ant colonies learn the path
to a food source have an interesting definition of the
word "teach." Check out this article:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0111_060111_ant_teachers.html
To them, the essence of teaching is that it requires
some sort of sacrifice on the part of the teacher.
- Meg
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to a food source have an interesting definition of the
word "teach." Check out this article:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/01/0111_060111_ant_teachers.html
To them, the essence of teaching is that it requires
some sort of sacrifice on the part of the teacher.
- Meg
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Sandra Dodd
-=-The researchers show that the lead ant in the tandem pair could
reach the food stash four times faster when not slowed by a follower.
-=-But the follower ant finds the food faster than when searching
alone and is ultimately able to quickly run solo errands. The process
likely increases the fitness of the entire ant colony, the
researchers say, by making the ants more efficient.
-=-According to Franks, the lead ant's sacrifice is a hallmark of
teaching that until now has been shown only in humans.-=-
Yeah, but ants are the friggin' BORG (minus the assimilation and the
cool ship). It was no sacrifice for that lead ant. He could get
there faster, but he couldn't carry more. They don't go out and
eat. They go out, get food, and carry it back to the collective.
-=-In addition, the Bristol researchers say that teaching involves a
two-way relationship between the teacher and pupil.-=-
Well that's true. Yet people say "I taught him, but he didn't learn
it." Then the response has to be "If he didn't learn it, you didn't
teach him."
Because teaching is a paid profession here, it's something people do
by showing up and performing behaviors and filing reports. Only very
secondarily do they measure the learning and compare it to
anything. Learning is a distant byproduct sometimes in the minds of
those who say they are teachers.
-=-For example, on the return trip the follower ant often takes a
different, more direct path than the one it was taught.-=-
They could have used "shown" instead of "taught."
-=-Franks and Richardson say the ants acquire knowledge about finding
a food source, as well as gaining more general knowledge about their
environment.-=-
They could have said "learn" instead of "acquire knowledge."
Nowhere in there, I think, did they talk about learning�about the
ants being smart enough to learn, and needing to learn.
Interesting!!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
reach the food stash four times faster when not slowed by a follower.
-=-But the follower ant finds the food faster than when searching
alone and is ultimately able to quickly run solo errands. The process
likely increases the fitness of the entire ant colony, the
researchers say, by making the ants more efficient.
-=-According to Franks, the lead ant's sacrifice is a hallmark of
teaching that until now has been shown only in humans.-=-
Yeah, but ants are the friggin' BORG (minus the assimilation and the
cool ship). It was no sacrifice for that lead ant. He could get
there faster, but he couldn't carry more. They don't go out and
eat. They go out, get food, and carry it back to the collective.
-=-In addition, the Bristol researchers say that teaching involves a
two-way relationship between the teacher and pupil.-=-
Well that's true. Yet people say "I taught him, but he didn't learn
it." Then the response has to be "If he didn't learn it, you didn't
teach him."
Because teaching is a paid profession here, it's something people do
by showing up and performing behaviors and filing reports. Only very
secondarily do they measure the learning and compare it to
anything. Learning is a distant byproduct sometimes in the minds of
those who say they are teachers.
-=-For example, on the return trip the follower ant often takes a
different, more direct path than the one it was taught.-=-
They could have used "shown" instead of "taught."
-=-Franks and Richardson say the ants acquire knowledge about finding
a food source, as well as gaining more general knowledge about their
environment.-=-
They could have said "learn" instead of "acquire knowledge."
Nowhere in there, I think, did they talk about learning�about the
ants being smart enough to learn, and needing to learn.
Interesting!!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
M Walker
<<Nowhere in there, I think, did they talk about
learningabout the
ants being smart enough to learn, and needing to
learn.>>
I googled several articles about this study. The big
argument the scientists seem to be having with each
other is whether the ants KNEW they were teaching and
KNEW they were learning.
And it seems that the scientists think the process has
to be painful or unpleasant on both sides--that's how
they'll KNOW it's intentional, rather than the ants
just working on instinct.
Maybe the leader ant finds it a JOYFUL experience to
go slower and bring the follower ant along. Maybe the
follower ant is having FUN following and feels really
good about the new knowledge it has gained.
It just struck me quite strongly in all the articles I
read that the basic assumption the scientists were
making was flawed. And, of course, it's so ingrained
in them to think "schoolishly" that they aren't even
aware of the assumption they're making.
Of course, I'm being anthropomorphic (had to look that
up to make sure I'm using it correctly) here--I doubt
ants feel Joy or Pride.
The question was, are the ants AWARE that they're
TEACHING. And I think the answer could be that it's
just a part of their lives to be mindful in how they
live and to make it possible for others can learn from
them.
The leader/follower thing was initiated by the
Follower ant. So it could be that the Follower ant saw
some knowledge out there in the colony that it knew it
needed. And it pursued that knowledge.
I think these scientists should talk to some
unschoolers before they design their next study.
- Meg
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learningabout the
ants being smart enough to learn, and needing to
learn.>>
I googled several articles about this study. The big
argument the scientists seem to be having with each
other is whether the ants KNEW they were teaching and
KNEW they were learning.
And it seems that the scientists think the process has
to be painful or unpleasant on both sides--that's how
they'll KNOW it's intentional, rather than the ants
just working on instinct.
Maybe the leader ant finds it a JOYFUL experience to
go slower and bring the follower ant along. Maybe the
follower ant is having FUN following and feels really
good about the new knowledge it has gained.
It just struck me quite strongly in all the articles I
read that the basic assumption the scientists were
making was flawed. And, of course, it's so ingrained
in them to think "schoolishly" that they aren't even
aware of the assumption they're making.
Of course, I'm being anthropomorphic (had to look that
up to make sure I'm using it correctly) here--I doubt
ants feel Joy or Pride.
The question was, are the ants AWARE that they're
TEACHING. And I think the answer could be that it's
just a part of their lives to be mindful in how they
live and to make it possible for others can learn from
them.
The leader/follower thing was initiated by the
Follower ant. So it could be that the Follower ant saw
some knowledge out there in the colony that it knew it
needed. And it pursued that knowledge.
I think these scientists should talk to some
unschoolers before they design their next study.
- Meg
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Schuyler Waynforth
> <<Nowhere in there, I think, did they talk aboutI think the language is stymied because it is jargon. Probably (not
> learningabout the
> ants being smart enough to learn, and needing to
> learn.>>
>
> I googled several articles about this study. The big
> argument the scientists seem to be having with each
> other is whether the ants KNEW they were teaching and
> KNEW they were learning.
>
> And it seems that the scientists think the process has
> to be painful or unpleasant on both sides--that's how
> they'll KNOW it's intentional, rather than the ants
> just working on instinct.
having read the articles, so entirely supposition on my part) the
researchers are arguing that there is a cost to teaching. The lead
ant needing to slow up being the cost to her (right, workers are
female in ants?) efficiency at foraging. The cost isn't a massive
energetic cost, the second ant having to keep tapping being more
energetically expensive than the lead ant slowing down. But, if a
cost is incurred it argues that this is an altruistic act. And
altruism is a happy buzzword in evolutionary biology. But, Sandra's
right, ants are Borgs.
>Nah, it's about getting enough food to make it through and to get
> The question was, are the ants AWARE that they're
> TEACHING. And I think the answer could be that it's
> just a part of their lives to be mindful in how they
> live and to make it possible for others can learn from
> them.
Queen to make more babies. Not mindfulness.
Schuyler
Sandra Dodd
On Mar 2, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Schuyler Waynforth wrote:
She's not being paid by the load. She's not gathering her own
personal food. She/he/it is gathering for the common store. So it's
probably more efficient to get help.
When I was little I watched ants a lot. I also dug them up to look
at their rooms (not realizing until I was older that I was destroying
many weeks of hard ant labor). I especially liked to see the trails
that were some distance from the antbed, where the ants would do a
kissy-face thing with the ants they were meeting on the trail. They
would touch antennae at least, and then keep going. I always figured
they were just confirming that it was the right trail, and there was
still some food over there or something.
A friend showed me that if you camp near and ant bed, they won't
bother you if you just give them so much food close to them that they
would never leave for the whole weekend. Makes sense!
Maybe if a particular ant isn't helpful the other ants will ignore
it, or run it off or eat it. Maybe it's self-preservation to be
cooperative and not altruism. Maybe even aphids don't like to be
ignored. Or maybe they don't care. <g>
Sandra
> The leadBut that "efficiency" argument, they seemed to forget, doesn't hold.
> ant needing to slow up being the cost to her (right, workers are
> female in ants?) efficiency at foraging.
She's not being paid by the load. She's not gathering her own
personal food. She/he/it is gathering for the common store. So it's
probably more efficient to get help.
When I was little I watched ants a lot. I also dug them up to look
at their rooms (not realizing until I was older that I was destroying
many weeks of hard ant labor). I especially liked to see the trails
that were some distance from the antbed, where the ants would do a
kissy-face thing with the ants they were meeting on the trail. They
would touch antennae at least, and then keep going. I always figured
they were just confirming that it was the right trail, and there was
still some food over there or something.
A friend showed me that if you camp near and ant bed, they won't
bother you if you just give them so much food close to them that they
would never leave for the whole weekend. Makes sense!
Maybe if a particular ant isn't helpful the other ants will ignore
it, or run it off or eat it. Maybe it's self-preservation to be
cooperative and not altruism. Maybe even aphids don't like to be
ignored. Or maybe they don't care. <g>
Sandra
elainegh8
>snipped< But, Sandra's> right, ants are Borgs.> SchuylerRead somewhere today that ants are descended from wasps (not 100% sure
that's correct). I know that lots of wasps reproduce by laying their
eggs in the eggs of other species. The wasp larvae eat the other
specie's larvae from the inside out. Ants are even more like the Borg
now!
BWs Elaine