[email protected]

In a message dated 07/17/2000 12:42:04 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
cathen@... writes:

<<
I joined this list to learn something about unschooling, a concept that is
fairly new to me. I do not feel I can direct the conversation that way (as
someone suggested), because I don't even know enough to know what to ask.

Cathy
>>


Cathy --

We are happily unschooling (more or less, some days more, some days less) our
two kids (5 1/2 yo girl, 7 yo boy) in Florida.

Where are you?

We are more structured in math, less in reading, back and forth as needed.

We change things as we come across new activities. Or if something doesn't
click, we scrap it.

My kids take outside lessons for dance, piano and Tae Kwon Do -- and an
online course for math for son.

We have found that school didn't really end this summer -- we slowed down,
other neighbor kids were around more, some outside lessons took a break, but
we still went to the library (we've GOT to get there today -- have some
REALLY overdue ones now), still read a lot, still discovered things in the
back yard and now are in the midst of painting the kids' bedrooms (ugh!).

What are you up to?

Nance

Cathy Henderson

Nance,

I am in Talladega, Alabama.

I have a 14 yo daughter. She was diagnosed ADHD in the first grade and I
spent almost as much time at school as she did. About 2-1/2 years ago I
started homeschooling. We followed a strict curriculum and both of us were
going insane. I believe I was thinking more about what other people would
think than about her needs. Or I was just afraid to trust my instincts. At
the end of the last year I started taking a really good look at what she was
being tested on and ... grew up or something, I guess.

I went to a seminar that included some unschooling information and have been
trying to learn all I can since then. I still have some fear that we won't
"do" this right -- but I think she is so stressed that I don't care. It
can't be any less effective than what we've had.

The one bright spot in her last year was the Saxon math program. It was
such a success for her (especially compared to past math experiences) that
we will continue it this year ... though I have a few changes in mind.

Other than that, I am not really sure what we will do. She desperately
needs to de-school, but she is so used to failure that if I don't give her
some type of academics that make her feel successful, it will just increase
her sense of failure. She will think she is not "schooling" because I've
given up on her or something.

If anyone has any experience unschooling after alot of damage has already
been done, I'd sure like any advice or thoughts you might have.

Cathy



From: <marbleface@...>
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] To Cathy -- was Re: Definitions


> Cathy --
>
> We are happily unschooling (more or less, some days more, some days less)
our
> two kids (5 1/2 yo girl, 7 yo boy) in Florida.
>
> Where are you?
>
> We are more structured in math, less in reading, back and forth as needed.
>
> We change things as we come across new activities. Or if something
doesn't
> click, we scrap it.
>
> My kids take outside lessons for dance, piano and Tae Kwon Do -- and an
> online course for math for son.
>
> We have found that school didn't really end this summer -- we slowed down,
> other neighbor kids were around more, some outside lessons took a break,
but
> we still went to the library (we've GOT to get there today -- have some
> REALLY overdue ones now), still read a lot, still discovered things in the
> back yard and now are in the midst of painting the kids' bedrooms (ugh!).
>
> What are you up to?
>
> Nance
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963839804/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/17/2000 4:27:54 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
cathen@... writes:

<< The one bright spot in her last year was the Saxon math program. It was
such a success for her (especially compared to past math experiences) that
we will continue it this year ... though I have a few changes in mind.

Other than that, I am not really sure what we will do. She desperately
needs to de-school, but she is so used to failure that if I don't give her
some type of academics that make her feel successful, it will just increase
her sense of failure. She will think she is not "schooling" because I've
given up on her or something.

If anyone has any experience unschooling after alot of damage has already
been done, I'd sure like any advice or thoughts you might have.

Cathy
>>


Fortunately we didn't have to go thru this hellishness but . . . it seems to
me, imo, ymmv, etc. . . .

that 14 years old is old enough to participate in the process. You are
trying to make all these decisions and your daughter may (or not) have some
ideas about what to do. And you don't have to do it all at once. Maybe the
two of you could pick a subject and read about it or go to the museum or
library or university or planetarium or zoo and do follow-up "grownup"
research and go more in depth.

Then, when she has had a wonderful time learning about stars, for example
(and NASA has some great free stuff on their sites, fwiw) you could move on
to sewing a dress (do girls still do that?) or studying Spanish or whatever.

Then you could sit down, after giving yourselves a fair chance (6 months, a
year, longer?) and figure out how many topics you "really" covered. Stars --
science, reading, math, etc etc etc.

I don't think deschooling means you have to veg out in front of the TV (altho
that can be therapeutic too!) just a change from the school routine and
learning how you and she need to approach things in order to learn.

Just some thoughts.

Good luck.

Nance

Corallyn Berger

> If anyone has any experience unschooling after alot
> of damage has already
> been done, I'd sure like any advice or thoughts you
> might have.
>
> Cathy


I have chosen to start me children's education at
home; however, I have heard a lot from other parents
who have dealt with this. They say that it takes 1-2
years to deschool. They just let their children choose
the activies they want whether it is t.v. reading etc.
After a while though they become interested in more
structured i.e. educational things. You could start by
explaining to your child what you would like to do in
way of homeschooling and see if she thinks it would be
a good idea. Maybe plan some day trips to the zoo,
museum, park, have a picnic. Things that you can do
with your daughter that you would both enjoy and spend
time together just bonding. In the process of these
activities she will be learning about the animals,
nature, and herself. This is the beauty of
unschooling.

Corallyn

__________________________________________________
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Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Cathy Henderson

----- Original Message -----
From: <marbleface@...>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 12:38 PM
>
> that 14 years old is old enough to participate in the process. You are
> trying to make all these decisions and your daughter may (or not) have
some
> ideas about what to do. And you don't have to do it all at once. Maybe
the
> two of you could pick a subject and read about it or go to the museum or
> library or university or planetarium or zoo and do follow-up "grownup"
> research and go more in depth.
>

We have talked at length about unschooling. She is old enough to understand
at least as much of it as I understand. Although it seems like she embraces
the idea, she later says things that shows she doesn't quite "believe" it
yet. Maybe she thinks it is too good to be true <g>. It is going to take
some time. For both of us.

>
> I don't think deschooling means you have to veg out in front of the TV
(altho
> that can be therapeutic too!) just a change from the school routine and
> learning how you and she need to approach things in order to learn.
>

I have never been a big fan of TV. But for the moment she is watching alot
of TV, doing alot of arts and crafts when she chooses. In fact, "she
chooses" seems to me to be the key. Katrina has had alot of pain and has to
heal. She has also been far too controlled, yes by me too. Sometimes I do
fear it is too little too late, but this is where we are and so where we
have to start.

Thanks.

Cathy

Cathy Henderson

Corallyn,

I am hearing the same from others, that if she is allowed to do whatever
interests her, she will eventually return to educational or learning
pursuits. I had a hard time believing it at first, but too many people have
said it.

I just want to see her smiling and happy again. It's been so long I've
almost forgotten what it looks like.

Cathy

----- Original Message -----
From: Corallyn Berger <hape2day@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] To Cathy -- was Re: Definitions


>
> > If anyone has any experience unschooling after alot
> > of damage has already
> > been done, I'd sure like any advice or thoughts you
> > might have.
> >
> > Cathy
>
>
> I have chosen to start me children's education at
> home; however, I have heard a lot from other parents
> who have dealt with this. They say that it takes 1-2
> years to deschool. They just let their children choose
> the activies they want whether it is t.v. reading etc.
> After a while though they become interested in more
> structured i.e. educational things. You could start by
> explaining to your child what you would like to do in
> way of homeschooling and see if she thinks it would be
> a good idea. Maybe plan some day trips to the zoo,
> museum, park, have a picnic. Things that you can do
> with your daughter that you would both enjoy and spend
> time together just bonding. In the process of these
> activities she will be learning about the animals,
> nature, and herself. This is the beauty of
> unschooling.
>
> Corallyn
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963862536/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 07/17/2000 9:34:11 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
cathen@... writes:

<<
We have talked at length about unschooling. She is old enough to understand
at least as much of it as I understand. Although it seems like she embraces
the idea, she later says things that shows she doesn't quite "believe" it
yet. Maybe she thinks it is too good to be true <g>. It is going to take
some time. For both of us.
>>


Well, I don't believe it some days either! :) What good luck I have to be
able to do all of this. Not having to get up and meet the school bus at 7:00
and work on homework all afternoon - etc. after nauseating etc. And I am
constantly checking on non-homeschooling choices -- a new charter school that
is opening near us was the latest thing I looked into (it was not for us --
now! -- see how I cover myself in case I change my mind later!) -- but
that's OK -- questioning if what you are doing is best and realizing that you
have it good is part of it, I think.

Nance

em 1267

>
>
>I have never been a big fan of TV. But for the moment she is watching alot
>of TV, doing alot of arts and crafts when she chooses. In fact, "she
>chooses" seems to me to be the key. Katrina has had alot of pain and has
to
>heal. She has also been far too controlled, yes by me too. Sometimes I do
>fear it is too little too late, but this is where we are and so where we
>have to start.

And this is a very brave thing to do... to just start. Congratulation. :)

LisaKK

Corallyn Berger

I can relate to this being a graduate (just barely) of
ps. At the time I didn't realize it but now that I
know about homeschooling and unschooling, if I had
been allowed to learn the way I learn naturally and
not had all that useless stuff crammed down my throat
I would have been a much happier child. I look back
now and think how nice it would have been to spend the
day with my mom just doing fun things and exploring
the things that we both enjoyed. I also think this
would have cut down on the years many people, me
included, spend going through the akward stage with
their mothers. You know what I mean? Mom has said to
me since that she regrets not knowing about
homeschooling or she would have done it. Anyway, just
go out and have fun with her. Plan things together
that you both have wanted to do but didn't have time
because she was in school all day. I guess what I am
trying to say is that through the homeschooling
process you can get to know your daughter again and
regain any trust and/or bond that you two have lost
while she was in ps. Corallyn




> Corallyn,
>
> I am hearing the same from others, that if she is
> allowed to do whatever
> interests her, she will eventually return to
> educational or learning
> pursuits. I had a hard time believing it at first,
> but too many people have
> said it.
>
> I just want to see her smiling and happy again.
> It's been so long I've
> almost forgotten what it looks like.
>
> Cathy
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get Yahoo! Mail � Free email you can access from anywhere!
http://mail.yahoo.com/

Cathie _

Hi Cathy. I took my dd out of school after the 7th grade. My girl, Megan was
doubtful about it too, especially unschooling. She really thought that
without assignments and tests and grades, she was not learning. The big
breakthrough for her was old movies.

She had gotten into old movie musicals from the library and was watching
them all the time. One day I said, "Hey, why don't you turn these movies
into school, and really learn something about them?" The next time we went
to the library she came out with a big stack of books on that era of movie
making. I love these movies, too, so it was interesting for me to hear all
that she was learning. She really got into it-stuff about Judy Garland and
how she was mistreated as a child, the things that MGM did to the female
stars was totally appalling. She learned alot about choreographers and
music, followed up on the careers of some of the stars, found pictures and
songs on the net, oh, all kinds of stuff.

This finally convinced her of the value of following her own interests. She
did more work on this project than she had ever done in school, and it was
about a topic she chose, not one that someone else said she needed to learn.

She also spent tons of time on the internet. She has made some really good
friends that way-in fact, she is now in Wisconsin on a campout with a bunch
of these kids. She also learned more social studies than she ever did in
school just by talking to kids from other countries. She did alot with kids
from Holland. She could tell me all about the country, not just dry
statistics, but what they learned in school, how much internet service and
houses and stuff cost, what the weather is like, things people do there,
crime and local news. She knew time zones around the world-she could tell
where someone was by the time on their icq message. It took me pointing out
to her that this was educational-turning it into educational lingo-to show
her that when she was having fun she was doing school.

If your daughter would like to meet her, let me know. She will be back from
Wisconsin in another week, and I'm sure she would be glad to email your
girl.

Cathie

>Other than that, I am not really sure what we will do. She desperately
>needs to de-school, but she is so used to failure that if I don't give her
>some type of academics that make her feel successful, it will just increase
>her sense of failure. She will think she is not "schooling" because I've
>given up on her or something.
>
>If anyone has any experience unschooling after alot of damage has already
>been done, I'd sure like any advice or thoughts you might have.
>
>Cathy

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Tracy Oldfield

Cathy, as someone who has no experience of what you're going
through, all I can say is that it's never too late, though sooner is,
IMO better <g> You both have a lot of pain to heal, and a lot of
de-schooling (I am still de-schooling myself, and I'm 26!) and it
will take time. I wish you the best and hope you find the support
and encouragement you need.

Tracy

On 17 Jul 2000, at 15:48, Cathy Henderson wrote:


I have never been a big fan of TV. But for the moment
she is watching alot
of TV, doing alot of arts and crafts when she chooses.
In fact, "she
chooses" seems to me to be the key. Katrina has had
alot of pain and has to
heal. She has also been far too controlled, yes by me
too. Sometimes I do
fear it is too little too late, but this is where we
are and so where we
have to start.

Thanks.

Cathy

Cathy Henderson

Corallyn -- I was a "successful" ps student -- well at least academically.
Good grades, for the most part good relationships with teachers. But
working with Katrina, I realized just how little of it I retained.
Diagramming sentences, which was not a problem for me, but was disaster for
Katrina, almost collapsed us last year, and when I tried to justify all the
time in my mind, I realized just how ridiculous it all was.

I think you're right. My mother died two years ago. We were good friends
later on, but we went through a long period when we were not. Alot of that
came from just not knowing her, from the inside out, if you know what I
mean. And that happens because there is just NO TIME for families when
school becomes the focal point of everything.

Cathy

From: Corallyn Berger <hape2day@...>

> I can relate to this being a graduate (just barely) of
> ps. At the time I didn't realize it but now that I
> know about homeschooling and unschooling, if I had
> been allowed to learn the way I learn naturally and
> not had all that useless stuff crammed down my throat
> I would have been a much happier child.

> now and think how nice it would have been to spend the
> day with my mom just doing fun things and exploring
> the things that we both enjoyed. I also think this
> would have cut down on the years many people, me
> included, spend going through the akward stage with
> their mothers. You know what I mean? Mom has said to
> me since that she regrets not knowing about
> homeschooling or she would have done it. Anyway, just
> go out and have fun with her. Plan things together
> that you both have wanted to do but didn't have time
> because she was in school all day. I guess what I am
> trying to say is that through the homeschooling
> process you can get to know your daughter again and
> regain any trust and/or bond that you two have lost
> while she was in ps. Corallyn

>
>
>
> > Corallyn,
> >
> > I am hearing the same from others, that if she is
> > allowed to do whatever
> > interests her, she will eventually return to
> > educational or learning
> > pursuits. I had a hard time believing it at first,
> > but too many people have
> > said it.
> >
> > I just want to see her smiling and happy again.
> > It's been so long I've
> > almost forgotten what it looks like.
> >
> > Cathy
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get Yahoo! Mail - Free email you can access from anywhere!
> http://mail.yahoo.com/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963890432/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

LisaKK

>I am in Talladega, Alabama.

Hi! I'm north of you in Huntsville.

Or I was just afraid to trust my instincts. At
>the end of the last year I started taking a really good look at what she
was
>being tested on and ... grew up or something, I guess.

No matter what has happened up to this point, the very fact that you kept
searching until you had the tools to use to trust your insticnts is a very
powerful lesson for your daughter.
>
>I went to a seminar that included some unschooling information and have
been
>trying to learn all I can since then. I still have some fear that we won't
>"do" this right -- but I think she is so stressed that I don't care. It
>can't be any less effective than what we've had.

Kind of an aside, have you been talking to Christie Berry? ;)
>
>The one bright spot in her last year was the Saxon math program. It was
>such a success for her (especially compared to past math experiences) that
>we will continue it this year ... though I have a few changes in mind.

This is great. Saxon hasn't worked well for us.. at least not yet, but you
never know.

>Other than that, I am not really sure what we will do. She desperately
>needs to de-school, but she is so used to failure that if I don't give her
>some type of academics that make her feel successful, it will just increase
>her sense of failure. She will think she is not "schooling" because I've
>given up on her or something.

Are you sure of these thoughts? Have you talked with her about this? I
have a child who was molested at 4. At 12 realization of what was done to
her began to dawn and we spent a great deal of time healing. We did not do
anything even remotely connected to learning.. we just lived --survived
together. We cried alot. She spent a huge amount of time alone in her room.
As she began to heal she started asking for *more*.....more to read, more to
do. Success and feeling confident does not have to come from academics,
especially if it's been a source of contention for a long while.

>If anyone has any experience unschooling after alot of damage has already
>been done, I'd sure like any advice or thoughts you might have.

Physical activity helps immensely. Is your child intersted in anything like
karate or gymnastics or some other sport/activity?

LisaKK

Cathy Henderson

Cindy, thanks for the book suggestion. I do want Katrina to participate
more. I think the biggest obstacle there may simply be that she does know
anything BUT textbooks, tests and grades.

She has definitely been under alot of control. Just being "watched" all the
time after the label is control. And that includes my own "watchful" eye.
She doesn't know what to do with freedom -- but I'm betting on her. She'll
get there.

Cathy

From: The White's <jwwjr@...>


> I'm a bit behind, as usual, on the list....I can't offer any personal
> stories about my children since they are still young, but I think that the
> more you ask Katrina to participate in the decision making process about
> school, the better she will feel about herself. I think kids labelled LD
or
> gifted in ps loose even more control over their lives and their learning.
> Not only do they have to satisfy teacher & parent, now they have an ISP to
> fulfill.
>
> I remember being 14, it's hard enough without all that other "stuff".
Give
> her back a lot more control of her learning and I think, I hope, things
will
> get easier.
>
> Also, I can't believe no one has suggested yet, please read & ask her to
> read (or read to her) The Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Llewellyn.
>
> Good luck!
> Cindy
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Visit www.ibelieve.com today and get a FREE book by Chuck Swindoll!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/6182/14/_/448294/_/963964652/
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> Addresses:
> Post message: [email protected]
> Unsubscribe: [email protected]
> List owner: [email protected]
> List settings page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
>

Cathy Henderson

From: LisaKK <LisaBugg@...>


> >I am in Talladega, Alabama.
>
> Hi! I'm north of you in Huntsville.

Gee, that area seems to have a healthy group of unschoolers. I envy you.

> >I went to a seminar that included some unschooling information and have
> been
> >trying to learn all I can since then. I still have some fear that we
won't
> >"do" this right -- but I think she is so stressed that I don't care. It
> >can't be any less effective than what we've had.

> Kind of an aside, have you been talking to Christie Berry? ;)

Yes! Christie is lucky she is out of reach -- several times I would have
hugged her breathless.

> >The one bright spot in her last year was the Saxon math program. It was
>
> This is great. Saxon hasn't worked well for us.. at least not yet, but
you
> never know.

I am actually not sure whether Saxon is that great for her, or just great in
comparison. In contast to her other academics, the repetition gave her some
success every day. I know I did see alot of improvement in her math skills,
but I attribute some of that to the "success" issue. Having the structured
math also offers some comfort to my husband, who is still a little leery of
unschooling (which is better than when he thought I'd lost my mind).

> >needs to de-school, but she is so used to failure that if I don't give
her
> >some type of academics that make her feel successful, it will just
increase
> >her sense of failure. She will think she is not "schooling" because I've
> >given up on her or something.
>
> Are you sure of these thoughts? Have you talked with her about this? I
> have a child who was molested at 4. At 12 realization of what was done to
> her began to dawn and we spent a great deal of time healing. We did not
do
> anything even remotely connected to learning.. we just lived --survived
> together. We cried alot. She spent a huge amount of time alone in her
room.
> As she began to heal she started asking for *more*.....more to read, more
to
> do. Success and feeling confident does not have to come from academics,
> especially if it's been a source of contention for a long while.
>

(Did you hear my gasp?)
No I am not sure of those thoughts. And I have not addressed that with her
specifically. I know she feels like a failure but it is in all areas, or at
least it carries over to all areas. She was labeled severely ADHD in the
first grade and it has been a long road, with some of the most ridiculous
nightmares that were entirely unnecessary. I withdrew her from public
school in April of her 5th grade year and then recreated the school at home
for 2-1/2 years.

But the reason for the gasp -- Katrina was molested before she was six.
After years of not remembering, she inadvertently learned of this a few
months ago. Her anger was frightening to behold. She is more accepting now
but is also starting to have some memories. I became so aware of the stress
that she was under that I began to really question and look at all the areas
of her life, especially the academics. At that time, they were taking so
much time that they WERE her life.

Knowing how much pain she was in, I tried to stop "school" at that point.
She absolutely insisted that we finish each and every textbook. Well, we
did, but I stayed up nights to find shortcuts. That's when I realized how
ridiculous the questions were on her tests. Sheesh. But I had to be really
inventive to skip anything. She would almost cry if she thought I was
purposely trying to make something easier for her. Maybe this was just
temporary, maybe she was just afraid to have anything else unfamiliar to
deal with.

I apologize that this is so long. This may not be appropriate for a list,
and if so I am sorry. I know that I have to follow my heart with Katrina,
but sometimes my heart feels very confused.

> >If anyone has any experience unschooling after alot of damage has already
> >been done, I'd sure like any advice or thoughts you might have.
>
> Physical activity helps immensely. Is your child intersted in anything
like
> karate or gymnastics or some other sport/activity?

She is very good at basketball, but only if she plays alone. Katrina's
"social failures" make her so anxious around others that team efforts don't
work well right now. It is just so HOT right now, but I do want to give her
more opportunities in that area.

Cathy

Tracy Oldfield

me, imo, ymmv, etc. . . .

OK, I've been internetting for about 2 years now, and
this is a new one on me!!! ymmv???

I can't even begin to think what this means!!!
Help!

Tracy <g>