sarahegraf

My husband and I are expecting our first child and are very excited.
We have plans of sleeping with the baby in our bed for however long
he/she wants, and of trying our best to pay attention to our baby's
schedule in every way instead of setting up a strict routine. I hear
of many ways to unschool your school aged child, but what are ways to
unschool your child from the very beginning? Can you recommend any
good books? Or better yet, share your own experiences as a new
parent? Thanks so much.

Su Penn

I am all in favor of unschooling the unborn :-)

You might want to check out AlwaysUnschooled, also a Yahoo group.
It's for parents of young children...most are not as young as yours,
but you wouldn't be the only one there thinking ahead. At the
AlwaysUnschooled Yahoo site there are links and a book list.

On AlwaysUnschooled, we talk a lot about unschooling's relationship
to parenting, and address topics that come up more regularly for
those of us with really little ones (I think it's been awhile since
there's been a thread here on UnschoolingDiscussion about dealing
with kids grabbing toys away from each other, or not wanting to poop
in the potty). And we do a monthly book chat you might like.

Su

On Feb 5, 2006, at 9:07 PM, sarahegraf wrote:

> I hear
> of many ways to unschool your school aged child, but what are ways to
> unschool your child from the very beginning? Can you recommend any
> good books?

S Drag-teine

Unschooling your infant and toddler is the best part of unschooling. Don't
buy flash cards, don't buy language tapes, don't buy anything!



Okay, buy some stuff, buy different sizes of balls, a couple books but when
it comes down to it you are the best toy your child will ever have at this
age. When it came to unschooling - I got it until it came to kindergarten.
Do what comes naturally. sing, talk and play.



Let your child lead you - as long as she isn't in danger let her crawl,
laugh, play.



My children one boy who is now five and a half was quite and absorbed life
as an infant. He walked at a little over 13 months and was amazed at our
happy response. I talked to him a lot every where we went even if people
thought I was crazy. I never used baby talk. My point of view is why make
children work harder then they need to? Teach one word and stick with it. My
mom still calls medicine - meems. I don't get it.



Anyway, he still usually takes much in stride. I am never sure what he gets
from any activity we participate in, anything he watches or conversations we
have. He always looks like he is paying attention to something only he can
hear. Then days, weeks and sometimes months later he will ask me some
question or tell me something that makes me think to myself, "WOW! He got
it!" It just occurred to me why he doesn't play with the spelling stuff he
has - some how he just gets it and he doesn't need the stuff he has - he
needs something at a higher level. (Okay that was that a really schooly
statement? Anyone want to give me better verbage?)



In short my son is a thinker - then comes his sister who is almost 14
months. She is my doer. She doesn't stop moving even when she is sleeping.
She is surrounded by her brother, and three cousins 6, 7, and 9 and sees all
they are doing and she can't wait to join in. She lifted her head early, sat
up and walked just before a year.



She loves finger songs and books and is amazingly gentle even with paper
books. She loves emptying any container and amazing to me anyway she is
getting the concept that you don't put everything in your mouth. She gets
that crayons put color on paper though I see some wall battles as a
possibility.



Well, sorry to babble on for so long. you sound a lot like me. I was
pregnant and knew I was going to unschool until my son told me he wanted to
go to school. I figure he will probably make that mistake a couple times but
only a couple weeks this time around and we were back to unschooling. If you
have any direct questions or even want someone to talk to - let me know
(dragteine@...). I am full of ideas and I can be your bouncing board
so you don't make the same mistakes I have made - like buying things that
you find out your children will never use or that you really don't need.



Shannon

~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~

I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.

Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of sarahegraf
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] very excited to unschool our unborn child



My husband and I are expecting our first child and are very excited.
We have plans of sleeping with the baby in our bed for however long
he/she wants, and of trying our best to pay attention to our baby's
schedule in every way instead of setting up a strict routine. I hear
of many ways to unschool your school aged child, but what are ways to
unschool your child from the very beginning? Can you recommend any
good books? Or better yet, share your own experiences as a new
parent? Thanks so much.





"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>




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Sandra Dodd

On Feb 7, 2006, at 6:40 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> I never used baby talk. My point of view is why make
> children work harder then they need to? Teach one word and stick
> with it.

Babies learn language without being taught. Parents don't "teach"
them the words.

And English's greatest strength (and most irritating to those who
learn it as adults, I've heard) is that very FEW things have only one
name. Yet we don't have to teach children the other words; they pick
them up naturally and sort them however their brain is organized. I
have associations with words, like where I've heard them, the first
time I remember hearing them (in some cases), whether they're archaic
or recent, often what language they're from, what they sound like...
We can't predict or recommend to our kids how they will learn or
remember words; they have their own ways of learning and remembering
and sorting.

From an article at http://sandradodd.com/words:

==================

One day when Kirby was a toddler, his dad said carefully and clearly,
"Kirby, close the cabinet." Kirby gazed back with no understanding.
Keith tried again sweetly: "Close the cabinet!" Nothing. I saw the
impasse, and said quickly, "Kirby, shut the door." He lit up with
recognition and SLAM, it was done.

That day, I decided to try to use more than one word when I
communicated with my kids. I knew that in England, after the Norman
conquest, simple legal matters had been be stated in English and
French both, and some of those phrases still exist, like "will and
testament," "aid and abet," "give and bequeath," and "null and void."
So for the sake of my children understanding both my child-of-Texans
self AND my child-of-Bostonians husband (Boston and Michigan and
Canada, but NOT Texas), I began to paraphrase. "Kirby, can you hand
me that blue cup? The plastic mug that's on the counter?" Or "Let's
go to the park, okay? We'll walk down to the swings and picnic tables."

I didn't realize how much I was doing it, and how naturally, until I
started doing it in adult conversations. So I backed off, because by
then my youngest was five anyway.

=================

I love English and I love natural learning, so I couldn't let "Teach
one word" sit on the table here without picking it up and turning it
over.



Sandra









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie

Hello,

I'm a mostly-lurker here, mom to 9mo Dmitri and active over on the Always
Unschooled board.

Shannon wrote:
<<Don't buy flash cards, don't buy language tapes, don't buy anything!>>

Why not? Pre-Dmitri, I couldn't stand the "teachy" agenda of flashcards and
videos like the Baby Einstein series. Post-Dmitri, and in large part thanks
to the folks over at Always Unschooled, I realize that my reaction is my
problem. Dmitri actually likes the set of flashcards that I got for him
because they have textures and colors and are occasionally fun to chew. I
don't sit and try to teach him, but I do try to keep a more open mind about
what might be interesting and stimulating for him. We tried a Baby Einstein
video from Netflix--he didn't like it, but I no longer harbor fears that I
have to shield him from such things.

<<Okay, buy some stuff, buy different sizes of balls, a couple books but
when it comes down to it you are the best toy your child will ever have at
this age.>>

I find this to be true up to a point. Before Dmitri arrived, dh and I
didn't think he would need a lot of material objects. We envisioned a few
"natural" wood and fabric toys, organic cotton teething dolls, you get the
picture. Now each room in our home has a colorful jumble of things to play
with. I agree that dh and I are the best playmates for Dmitri right now,
but it's a lot of fun for us to have a variety of objects (found, donated,
bought, scavenged) to play with together. I think strewing is just as
important for babies as it is for older kids.

Julie B

queenjane555

>I think strewing is just as important for babies as it is for older
>kids.
>
> Julie B

I think the "why" behind the strewing is important. If you have
flashcards in with the puzzles and the blocks and the books and the
cars, with no expectation that one is better than the other, or that
flashcards will "teach" the child something, then they become just
another plaything (or "manipulative")in the house.

The "danger" in strewing schooly things comes when the parent isnt
really all that convinced about unschooling, and when they place a
higher priority on learning that "looks educational" than learning
that is simply fun. If the workbook is right next to the comic book,
and the parent is truly ok with either being chosen, thats great. But
if the parent isnt quite there yet, it might be better to not have the
workbook around, esp if the child really isnt hot for workbooks anyway.

With babies, if there is a limited amount of money in which to buy
toys, i can think of many better choices than flashcards
or "educational" items geared toward "teaching language development"
or "making your baby smarter"..


Katherine

S Drag-teine

We still teach children language by the language we model. If we teach them
baby words like tubby instead of bath it lowers their vocabulary. I am not
talking about giving children more then one word for an object. I am talking
about letting them naturally learn real words instead of having them learn
made up words that don't mean anything, like tubby and drinky and all the
other words that don't mean anything.

Shannon

~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~

I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.

Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 12:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] problems with "teach one word"




On Feb 7, 2006, at 6:40 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> I never used baby talk. My point of view is why make
> children work harder then they need to? Teach one word and stick
> with it.

Babies learn language without being taught. Parents don't "teach"
them the words.

And English's greatest strength (and most irritating to those who
learn it as adults, I've heard) is that very FEW things have only one
name. Yet we don't have to teach children the other words; they pick
them up naturally and sort them however their brain is organized. I
have associations with words, like where I've heard them, the first
time I remember hearing them (in some cases), whether they're archaic
or recent, often what language they're from, what they sound like...
We can't predict or recommend to our kids how they will learn or
remember words; they have their own ways of learning and remembering
and sorting.

From an article at http://sandradodd.com/words:

==================

One day when Kirby was a toddler, his dad said carefully and clearly,
"Kirby, close the cabinet." Kirby gazed back with no understanding.
Keith tried again sweetly: "Close the cabinet!" Nothing. I saw the
impasse, and said quickly, "Kirby, shut the door." He lit up with
recognition and SLAM, it was done.

That day, I decided to try to use more than one word when I
communicated with my kids. I knew that in England, after the Norman
conquest, simple legal matters had been be stated in English and
French both, and some of those phrases still exist, like "will and
testament," "aid and abet," "give and bequeath," and "null and void."
So for the sake of my children understanding both my child-of-Texans
self AND my child-of-Bostonians husband (Boston and Michigan and
Canada, but NOT Texas), I began to paraphrase. "Kirby, can you hand
me that blue cup? The plastic mug that's on the counter?" Or "Let's
go to the park, okay? We'll walk down to the swings and picnic tables."

I didn't realize how much I was doing it, and how naturally, until I
started doing it in adult conversations. So I backed off, because by
then my youngest was five anyway.

=================

I love English and I love natural learning, so I couldn't let "Teach
one word" sit on the table here without picking it up and turning it
over.



Sandra









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Sandra Dodd

I agree with you, Julie!

Kids learn from picking things up and turning them over, feeling
them, seeing what noise they make, being surprised at how heavy or
light they are. That's just as true of teens as of babies though
teens are WAY less likely to taste the objects. <g>

(I have another note below the quote.)


On Feb 8, 2006, at 3:03 PM, Julie wrote:

> <<Okay, buy some stuff, buy different sizes of balls, a couple
> books but
> when it comes down to it you are the best toy your child will ever
> have at
> this age.>>
>
> I find this to be true up to a point. Before Dmitri arrived, dh and I
> didn't think he would need a lot of material objects. We
> envisioned a few
> "natural" wood and fabric toys, organic cotton teething dolls, you
> get the
> picture. Now each room in our home has a colorful jumble of things
> to play
> with. I agree that dh and I are the best playmates for Dmitri
> right now,
> but it's a lot of fun for us to have a variety of objects (found,
> donated,
> bought, scavenged) to play with together. I think strewing is just as
> important for babies as it is for older kids.


An article recently about simplicity had a couple of items at which I
balked strongly, due to changes in my thinking over these parenting
and unschooling years. One was this:

"Don't let any material thing into your home unless you absolutely
love it and want to keep it until it is beyond repair."

Okay... #1, would that include magazines (in which the advice was
published)?

#2, If one's goal is to have the most spartan home of all her
friends, that might be great advice. I'm not living by myself,
though, and my own goal is to have a learning nest.

#3, what if you love and intend to keep it and it will never be
beyond repair in the foreseeable future? We have some great rocks,
and a few wooden toys so sturdy that nothing but fire would be likely
to harm them.

#4, what if you get something, keep it for a few months, and pass it
on to someone else, or give it to a thrift store? I'm thinking of
magazines I've bought for a quarter to read an article in, and passed
back to the charity collection, or of costumes Holly has gotten, worn
once, known she would have grown out of it by the time she might wear
it again, so we basically rented it from the thrift shop; no
problem! What about buying something like a tin with a lid that you
know you will NOT keep, but that you'll use a while and then give
away, full of cookies?

I just thought it was bad advice in light of the way our own lives
are lived.

That was the first item in a list of ten.
The last item was "Practice saying no."

OH HUH! Most parents don't need to practice that! But the point the
author was making was to say no to things outside the family (job
promotions or social activities) in favor of being more attentive to
your family. So it redeemed itself. <g>

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:43 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> If we teach them
> baby words like tubby instead of bath it lowers their vocabulary.


Every day when I make my way to the tub-by
I find a little fellow who's cute and yellow and chub-by
Rub-a-dub-dubby

Rubber Duckie means something, and it uses "tubby."

Teletubbies uses "tubby" and means something completely different.

My kids had no trouble learning all that, and I bet none of yours
will either.

-=-We still teach children language by the language we model. -=-

If you insist on defending ideas about "teaching," that means you see
yourself as a teacher.
This will be detrimental to the flow of unschooling.

http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

-=-I am talking
about letting them naturally learn real words instead of having them
learn
made up words that don't mean anything-=-

I didn't "have my children" learn anything. I helped keep their
world active and swirly, they heard me speak, heard songs, played
with other children, talked with other adults, watched videos, TV
shows, movies, played rhyming games, and they have NO problems with
vocabulary whatsoever.

Limiting to "only real words" is more limiting than I think you
intend to be.

Speaking to children in real, respectful ways and sharing information
with them as you would with a friend is a fantastic idea.
Withholding baby words out of a sense of efficiency, or of not
cluttering them up with too many words, is a step away from
connections, rather than toward.

Sandra

Julie

Katherine wrote:
<<With babies, if there is a limited amount of money in which to buy
toys, i can think of many better choices than flashcards
or "educational" items geared toward "teaching language development"
or "making your baby smarter"..>>

I've been working at prejudices from both ends. On one hand, I'm now open
to TV, electronics, plastic toys--things I thought would be harmful before.
We have all of these things in our home now that we know Dmitri and have a
continually evolving sense of what he likes.

On the other, I noticed that I was immediately overlooking things that I
thought of as "toys with an agenda"--Baby Einstein videos, flashcards, and
the like. Now I realize that some of these toys and materials are genuinely
fun things (at least from Dmitri's point of view) wrapped up in edu-speak to
appeal to parents.

I noticed this the day I picked up a set of colorful blocks in a toy store,
spotted the Baby Einstein label, and had an immediate negative reaction. We
bought them, and Dmitri has taught me that they're fun even if they're
supposed to be good for him. I'm learning to look past words like
"flashcards." Yes, I initially balked at buying them because of the
negative association, but they're really just colorful pieces of cardboard
with neat pictures and textures, kind of like individual board book pages
that Dmitri can easily wave about.

Julie B
Dmitri, 9 months

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:43 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> I am not
> talking about giving children more then one word for an object.


Yes you were. You wrote the following very clearly, and voluntarily,
and then posted it:

-=-Teach one word and stick with it. -=-


Stand by what you write.
Writing more carefully in the first place might be a good idea, and
check your sigline before you send too, please.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 7, 2006, at 6:40 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> I am never sure what he gets
> from any activity we participate in, anything he watches or
> conversations we
> have. He always looks like he is paying attention to something only
> he can
> hear. Then days, weeks and sometimes months later he will ask me some
> question or tell me something that makes me think to myself, "WOW!
> He got
> it!" It just occurred to me why he doesn't play with the spelling
> stuff he
> has - some how he just gets it and he doesn't need the stuff he has
> - he
> needs something at a higher level. (Okay that was that a really
> schooly
> statement? Anyone want to give me better verbage?)


If unschooling parents make sure there are lots of materials and
inputs, kids will learn what they need, what grabs their interest,
etc., in ways we don't need to understand. Don't think of it as
"higher." Just more, different, new.

Cally Brown

Yeah .....

> I am talking
>about letting them naturally learn real words instead of having them learn
>made up words that don't mean anything, like tubby and drinky and all the
>other words that don't mean anything.
>
A neighbour once said it was easier for them - but I couldn't figure out
how horsey and drinky were easier than horse and dog!

Yesterday my 15 year old said that a cd that was playing was like a
lettuce. I was like, ?huh? and he laughed saying, you know, soporific. A
word he learned and used before he was 3, listening to Beatrice Potter's
Peter rRbbit stories. I guess he was right or I would have caught the
reference! Needless to say, he has never called rabbits 'bunnies'.

Cally

Debi

"Limiting to "only real words" is more limiting than I think you
intend to be.

"Speaking to children in real, respectful ways and sharing information
with them as you would with a friend is a fantastic idea.
Withholding baby words out of a sense of efficiency, or of not
cluttering them up with too many words, is a step away from
connections, rather than toward."

Sandra


Not to mention the shared intimacy of "family words" -- hambagurger;
taterpillar, miffins.

When we use these words safely within the context of our family, and not
in a "put down" kind of way, it celebrates the beautiful babies that
they were and how far they have come. Even my gallumphing great 13 year
old likes to hear words he used as a tiny child.

By using these words in quiet times, it helps bring us even closer.
Don't "miffins" sound much cozier and more comfortable than "mittens"?
I would certainly never ask my son if he wanted mashed "taboes" in front
of his friends, but when I do it in private, he knows I am remembering
the adorable lad he was and missing that toddler a little, as much as I
appreciate the fine young man he is.

Sometimes, listening to them wonder aloud why they thought "geeleeup"
was a good word for car, or "go gos" meant their little plastic Fisher
Price people, we look at each other and smile. It usually starts a
spate of "Remember .... remember..." and I get to see their perceptions
of our early days together.

I have always used proper terms and no "baby talk" around my children,
and I never corrected my children's pronounciation unless they asked --
I knew that too soon they would leave behind their lisps and other
childish ways. And they have. I did honor their attempts by using some
of "their" words, though -- it was only fair; they were trying to use
mine.

I taught English as a Second Language for years, and it never failed to
bring a smile to the lips of a struggling student when I could use a
word or two of their language. It showed them I respected the language
and culture they already had. How could I do less for my own children?

My "baby" turned six on Monday -- every day her vocabulary becomes a
little more "adult". Already miffins and taterpillars are a thing of
the past as we explore whether Shakespeare's fairy queen is
"Tie-TAY-nee-ah" or Tih-TAW-nee-ya" (does anybody know for sure?).
Maybe I am just feeling a touch sentimental today. All I know is, when
I use a "family" word, it becomes an allusion to their childhood, a
shorthand for "I love you and all you are and all you were and all you
are yet to be".

Debi, off to heed a summons to "Snuggle and huggle"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

"If we teach them
baby words like tubby instead of bath it lowers their vocabulary. "

I disagree strongly. That's a myth I've heard bandied about by
some...but it hasn't held up in our lives.

I don't like it when people talk down to children in silly voices. But
we've used all sorts of not-real-except-in-our-family words and it
hasn't seemed to hinder my children's natural desire to learn lots of
words and new ones every year of their lives.

We love our silly words that mean things to us....in fact, I think
those made-up words can be a very real way to validate a child that
can't say the "correct" name anyway. None of my children have limited
vocabularies...and one of them didn't talk until 3 years old.
He just turned five and tells me that "we breathe in oxygen and plants
breath out oxygen"....pretty good vocabulary for only talking the last
two years.:) He called nursing "na-na's" and still has some funny
words for stuff that we use right along with him.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com

Cally Brown

yeah, well, sometimes it's good to have one of those words....

>num num = nurse as in breastfeed. My younger one used that term, my
>older son just said "newse".
>
when my son asked for milk at a homeschool lunch and I put him off
because he was nearly 4 and everyone else needed feeding.... some kind
mother handed him a glass of cold cow's milk out of a tetrapac! Yikes!
He threw it on the floor and burst into tears. Guess it wouldn't have
happenned if I'd taught him to ask for num num!

Cally

Dawn Adams

Shannon wrote:
>We still teach children language by the >language we model. If we teach them
>baby words like tubby instead of bath it >lowers their vocabulary. I am not
>talking about giving children more then >one word for an object. I am talking
>about letting them naturally learn real >words instead of having them learn
>made up words that don't mean anything, >like tubby and drinky and all the
>other words that don't mean anything.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Of course the words mean something, that's why kids use them. Language isn't about using specific words, it's about communicating. If a child is using tubby and getting across what tubby means to those she talks to, she using language well.
I'm not a fan of baby words either and didn't use them but can't for the life of me see the harm in them if they work for a child.

Dawn




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Liz in AZ

What does "lowers their vocabulary" mean?

My 4yo calls rabbits by any of these names based on the context of
the conversation:
rabbit
bunbun
bunrab
bunny
cottontail/jackrabbit (as appropriate)

Would her vocabulary be "higher" if she only used "rabbit" or the
species names?

Is it possible you are parroting something you have heard without
giving it critical consideration?

I'm all for talking naturally around children and using "real
words", but there's absolutely no need to "limit yourself". Thank
heavens Dr. Seuss didn't!

Liz

--- In [email protected], "S Drag-teine"
<dragteine@...> wrote:
>
> We still teach children language by the language we model. If we
teach them
> baby words like tubby instead of bath it lowers their vocabulary.

Betsy Hill

** He just turned five and tells me that "we breathe in oxygen and plants
breath out oxygen"....pretty good vocabulary for only talking the last
two years.:)**


You COULD make him stay after school until he is trained to say
"inspiration" and "expiration" instead of "breathing in" and "breathing
out" -- but I doubt that he would find that experience very inspiring!

Obscure words from Latin are bound to be on the SAT!

(Just yanking your chain. <eg>)


Betsy

Jason Holm

--- In [email protected], "Julie"
<julesmiel@...> wrote:
> Why not? Pre-Dmitri, I couldn't stand the "teachy" agenda of
flashcards and
> videos like the Baby Einstein series. Post-Dmitri, and in large
part thanks
> to the folks over at Always Unschooled, I realize that my reaction
is my
> problem. Dmitri actually likes the set of flashcards that I got
for him
> because they have textures and colors and are occasionally fun to
chew. I
> don't sit and try to teach him, but I do try to keep a more open
mind about
> what might be interesting and stimulating for him. We tried a
Baby Einstein
> video from Netflix--he didn't like it, but I no longer harbor
fears that I
> have to shield him from such things.

Something I've picked up from listening to unschooling parents from
very different backgrounds is that it isn't so much the *methods* of
school that are the problem, but the *implementation*. If you look
at things like Multiple Intelligences and Myers-Briggs personality
types (in a general sense), they say what unschoolers all say - not
everyone works, thinks, or learns the same.

Even in an environment from birth with total freedom, lack of
prejudice, access to info of all types... there will still be a
percentage of children who learn best by listening to an "expert"
explain a topic, then being allowed to "quiz" themselves on the
knowledge they have gained. The key is really comprehending what are
the strengths and weaknesses of a child, adressing them, and giving
them freedom to adapt the best they can. Some kids may actually
learn best in a school environment, and to truly unschool is to give
the child that freedom to explore that possibility. To shield them
from a certain type of learning, because we see it as "traditional"
or "forced" might be just as harmful as forcing a child into it (if
the parents take care to explain to them what they see as
detrimental aspects of school, and that the child has no obligation
to stay there if they no longer feel it is for them).

Katherine mentioned this:
>The "danger" in strewing schooly things comes when the parent isnt
>really all that convinced about unschooling, and when they place a
>higher priority on learning that "looks educational" than learning
>that is simply fun. If the workbook is right next to the comic
book,
>and the parent is truly ok with either being chosen, thats great.
But
>if the parent isnt quite there yet, it might be better to not have
the
>workbook around, esp if the child really isnt hot for workbooks
anyway.

I think there is an equal danger in the alternative - in our hope to
expose kids to fun activities and avoid "schooly"-type elements, we
may hold back kids whose natural tendencies are to focus on
structured, logical resources.

Being attentive to our childrens' interests and personalities is
more important than what they have to play with. If unschooling is
to be believed, it will be impossible for an attentive parent not to
notice a child gravitating towards their interests, be it calculus
or coloring books.

Just my opinion. :)

-Jason

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 8, 2006, at 5:43 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> We still teach children language by the language we model. If we
> teach them
> baby words like tubby instead of bath it lowers their vocabulary. I
> am not
> talking about giving children more then one word for an object. I
> am talking
> about letting them naturally learn real words instead of having
> them learn
> made up words that don't mean anything, like tubby and drinky and
> all the
> other words that don't mean anything.

Some of those sweet made-up words are part of our family's vocabulary
forever, though. My kids are smart enough to know which words are
going to be understood outside the family and which aren't. Linguists
write about vocabulary circles or communities. There are words that
we can't use with other English speaking people who live in different
states. There are words that we older people (I'm 54 this month)
can't use with 25 year olds. Yesterday at our park day someone told
about a bumper sticker she'd seen that said, "Where are we going and
how did we get into this handbasket." I was surprised how many people
didn't get it and, turned out, had never heard the expression, "Going
to hell in a handbasket." We have the interesting situation, too, of
my kids knowing a lot of "baby words" in Farsi, not English. They
call their father "Baba" - with the accent more on the second 'ba."
They know Farsi words for many of the things that are usually babies'
"first words" - like for milk they know "shir" and for water they
know 'ab' and so on.

Those are real words in another language. But some of the words they
"know" were combinations of English and Farsi and those are very
precious to us - my oldest used to have a "khirs-bear" - khirs is
bear in Farsi, so that's really saying "bear bear."

-pam





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

S Drag-teine

"Just more, different, new."



Well, I could buy more and more of different new materials but unless they
take it to the next level he is going to continue to be bored with it and it
will go unsed and he will continue to ask for letters or numbers or whatever
because more of the new different materials still are challenging enough to
keep his attention.



Shannon

~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 9:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] better verbiage




On Feb 7, 2006, at 6:40 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> I am never sure what he gets
> from any activity we participate in, anything he watches or
> conversations we
> have. He always looks like he is paying attention to something only
> he can
> hear. Then days, weeks and sometimes months later he will ask me some
> question or tell me something that makes me think to myself, "WOW!
> He got
> it!" It just occurred to me why he doesn't play with the spelling
> stuff he
> has - some how he just gets it and he doesn't need the stuff he has
> - he
> needs something at a higher level. (Okay that was that a really
> schooly
> statement? Anyone want to give me better verbage?)


If unschooling parents make sure there are lots of materials and
inputs, kids will learn what they need, what grabs their interest,
etc., in ways we don't need to understand. Don't think of it as
"higher." Just more, different, new.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

S Drag-teine

"Stand by what you write."



Yes, what I am talking about is when children are babies, infants, toddlers,
preschooler age 0 to about five whichever terminology makes you comfortable.



They do not need two or three labels for an object thrown at them. It is
difficult enough for a child under the age of five to learn (learn also
means to discover something for one's self and that is what everyone on this
list does or is here to learn about and I don't think of myself as a
teacher. I think of myself as a fellow learner and guide as does my son
because when he discovers something that I don't know he loves to share his
discovery with me.)



Children (under the age of five) are like scientists from an alien world.
Not only have they never seen, touched or experienced anything in our world
- they also have no way of communicating thoughts, feelings or desires with
anything more then frustrated cries, screams and babbling. You can called
the Bath a "tubby" if you like but you still use that word over and over
until they get the idea of that tubby means getting in the tub and taking a
bath.



While I did mention that I don't use baby words, my point was that while I
don't see the use for baby words, I still think you should use one word when
trying to communicate with our little scientists.



That is not to say that once children have a foundation of language they
will discover new words for old objects.



Shannon

~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Sandra Dodd
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 9:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] problems with "teach one word"




On Feb 8, 2006, at 6:43 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> I am not
> talking about giving children more then one word for an object.


Yes you were. You wrote the following very clearly, and voluntarily,
and then posted it:

-=-Teach one word and stick with it. -=-


Stand by what you write.
Writing more carefully in the first place might be a good idea, and
check your sigline before you send too, please.

Sandra




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

S Drag-teine

"Limiting to "only real words" is more limiting than I think you
intend to be."



No, I think it sped up my son's communication skills. Now at five being that
he is into Dr. Seuss and creates his own stories with made up creatures. I
don't think I limited him at all. We have wobbwhos and trodilles and other
that are too long to type here. He also has other words he makes up and some
days we spend all day speaking gibberish.



Shannon

~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Debi
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 10:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] problems with "teach one word"




"Limiting to "only real words" is more limiting than I think you
intend to be.

"Speaking to children in real, respectful ways and sharing information
with them as you would with a friend is a fantastic idea.
Withholding baby words out of a sense of efficiency, or of not
cluttering them up with too many words, is a step away from
connections, rather than toward."

Sandra


Not to mention the shared intimacy of "family words" -- hambagurger;
taterpillar, miffins.

When we use these words safely within the context of our family, and not
in a "put down" kind of way, it celebrates the beautiful babies that
they were and how far they have come. Even my gallumphing great 13 year
old likes to hear words he used as a tiny child.

By using these words in quiet times, it helps bring us even closer.
Don't "miffins" sound much cozier and more comfortable than "mittens"?
I would certainly never ask my son if he wanted mashed "taboes" in front
of his friends, but when I do it in private, he knows I am remembering
the adorable lad he was and missing that toddler a little, as much as I
appreciate the fine young man he is.

Sometimes, listening to them wonder aloud why they thought "geeleeup"
was a good word for car, or "go gos" meant their little plastic Fisher
Price people, we look at each other and smile. It usually starts a
spate of "Remember .... remember..." and I get to see their perceptions
of our early days together.

I have always used proper terms and no "baby talk" around my children,
and I never corrected my children's pronounciation unless they asked --
I knew that too soon they would leave behind their lisps and other
childish ways. And they have. I did honor their attempts by using some
of "their" words, though -- it was only fair; they were trying to use
mine.

I taught English as a Second Language for years, and it never failed to
bring a smile to the lips of a struggling student when I could use a
word or two of their language. It showed them I respected the language
and culture they already had. How could I do less for my own children?

My "baby" turned six on Monday -- every day her vocabulary becomes a
little more "adult". Already miffins and taterpillars are a thing of
the past as we explore whether Shakespeare's fairy queen is
"Tie-TAY-nee-ah" or Tih-TAW-nee-ya" (does anybody know for sure?).
Maybe I am just feeling a touch sentimental today. All I know is, when
I use a "family" word, it becomes an allusion to their childhood, a
shorthand for "I love you and all you are and all you were and all you
are yet to be".

Debi, off to heed a summons to "Snuggle and huggle"




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

S Drag-teine

If there is ever anyone who can put into perspective it is Ren. Yes, I guess
I see your point. I still do get some baby words like meems for medicine or
how tubby is easier then tub or bath. We do use some family words like
ninnies for breastfeeding. I have always called what you do on the toilet
going potty even before my son was born but I guess that is a baby word.



My aunt's oldest son couldn't say tantrum and so we still call it a
tol-drum. while I don't see the need for some baby words that are often
longer then the word it is supposed to mean. You have broken my biggest
concern with is that of their vocabulary.



Pronunciation errors are cute. my son used to call a cookie - tookie and I
will always remember that. The ones I am glad he got over was his
pronunciation sounded of peach sounded like bitch at about the same time as
his favorite movie was James and the Giant Peach.

Shannon

~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~

_____

From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2006 12:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] problems with "teach one word"



"If we teach them
baby words like tubby instead of bath it lowers their vocabulary. "

I disagree strongly. That's a myth I've heard bandied about by
some...but it hasn't held up in our lives.

I don't like it when people talk down to children in silly voices. But
we've used all sorts of not-real-except-in-our-family words and it
hasn't seemed to hinder my children's natural desire to learn lots of
words and new ones every year of their lives.

We love our silly words that mean things to us....in fact, I think
those made-up words can be a very real way to validate a child that
can't say the "correct" name anyway. None of my children have limited
vocabularies...and one of them didn't talk until 3 years old.
He just turned five and tells me that "we breathe in oxygen and plants
breath out oxygen"....pretty good vocabulary for only talking the last
two years.:) He called nursing "na-na's" and still has some funny
words for stuff that we use right along with him.

Ren
learninginfreedom.com





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 9, 2006, at 10:15 AM, Jason Holm wrote:

> Something I've picked up from listening to unschooling parents from
> very different backgrounds is that it isn't so much the *methods* of
> school that are the problem, but the *implementation*.

Implementation and method are not easy to separate, unless you mean
to say implementation would be forcing a child, or setting the
schedule for the child.

-=-If you look
at things like Multiple Intelligences and Myers-Briggs personality
types (in a general sense), they say what unschoolers all say - not
everyone works, thinks, or learns the same.-=-

There's not an intelligence in the multiple intelligences list that
requires listening to an expert and being quizzed.

-=-Even in an environment from birth with total freedom, lack of
prejudice, access to info of all types... there will still be a
percentage of children who learn best by listening to an "expert"
explain a topic, then being allowed to "quiz" themselves on the
knowledge they have gained.-=-

Not according to any research in cognition with which I'm familiar or
have ever heard. Those methods have to do with convenience to the
experts, and with uniformity of presentation so that the quiz results
are more mathematically valid.

-=-Some kids may actually
learn best in a school environment, and to truly unschool is to give
the child that freedom to explore that possibility. -=-

Some kids might, but that would mean their alternative wasn't very
inspiring, rich or imaginative.

-=-Being attentive to our childrens' interests and personalities is
more important than what they have to play with. -=-

Absolutely true, but would you have them discouraged from "just
playing with" schooly materials? Would you press them to "do them
right"?


If unschooling is
to be believed, it will be impossible for an attentive parent not to
notice a child gravitating towards their interests, be it calculus
or coloring books.-=-

"If unschooling is to be believed"?
Do you have children you are unschooling?

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 9, 2006, at 10:59 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> They do not need two or three labels for an object thrown at them.
> It is
> difficult enough for a child under the age of five to learn


It is not in the LEAST bit difficult for a child under the age of
five to learn, and in fact those in fully bilingual situations pick
up two different languages, including more than one word for objects
in both languages, and they sort out the grammar and all, naturally.

-=-Children (under the age of five) are like scientists from an alien
world.-=-

No, they are natural parts of their OWN world.

-=-Not only have they never seen, touched or experienced anything in
our world
- they also have no way of communicating thoughts, feelings or
desires with
anything more then frustrated cries, screams and babbling.-=-

There is touch. There is gaze. Have you never just looked into the
eyes of your child, communicating? Have you not touched them
soothingly, and felt them touch you back sometimes? They can tell
the difference between an angry look and a gentle look.

-=-While I did mention that I don't use baby words, my point was that
while I
don't see the use for baby words, I still think you should use one
word when
trying to communicate with our little scientists.-=-

Right. Then you said you hadn't said that.
But English has MANY words for things. A sandwich can be a sandwich,
a snack, dinner, a tuna sandwich or a grilled cheese. A dog can be
a puppy or a guard dog or a pet or a beagle or a poodle. A flower
might be a tulip or a gift. A gift might be a present, or a birthday
present.

-=-That is not to say that once children have a foundation of
language they
will discover new words for old objects.
-=-

When will you decide that they have a foundation of language?
Because honestly, they have a foundation before they ever utter a
word. They are starting to understand speech they hear before they
use it intelligibly.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 9, 2006, at 10:37 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:

> "Just more, different, new."
>
>
>
> Well, I could buy more and more of different new materials but
> unless they
> take it to the next level he is going to continue to be bored with
> it and it
> will go unsed and he will continue to ask for letters or numbers or
> whatever
> because more of the new different materials still are challenging
> enough to
> keep his attention.


Here is some information about levels:

http://sandradodd.com/stages

When parents look to see children moving through levels, unschooling
will stall out. Seeing learning as swirling all directions, as
children figure out what they need without the overlay of a linear
model, helps one get nearer to trusting natural learning.

Sandra

Joyce Fetteroll

Sandra:
> They are starting to understand speech they hear before they
> use it intelligibly.

Yup. I remember carrying Kathryn around when she a week shy of 1
nattering on about what I was doing. As I was looking all over for
her hat I said "Where's you're hat?" not really expecting her to
understand what I was saying but she not only understood but had
watched someone put it up on the mantle at some point during the day
and she pointed right at it.

Shannon:
> They do not need two or three labels for an object thrown at them.

I think that sounds totally sensible. If an adult were learning a
foreign language they'd be irritated to have several names thrown at
them for things they were trying to learn.

And yet it just doesn't hold up against reality for babies. They
aren't consciously thinking about making a connection between a sound
(word) they hear and an object the way adults try to when learning a
language. They just absorb it all and connections get made in the
background as the brain does whatever it does.

It doesn't make sense that multiple words for a single thing wouldn't
confuse them, but the brain seems to take it in stride as though
that's a given. We don't really understand how the brain manages to
organize the input it gets so perhaps the brain *is* set up
specifically to accept multiple names for things because we need to
categorize things.

Even without baby talk a cat isn't just a cat it's an animal, pet,
cat, kitty, Allie, warm, fuzzy, nice .... and so on. The brain
manages to sort out -- because we *do* use multiple names for things
-- that each word is a set that includes 1 or more objects. It's the
key to our ability to categorize things. For Kathryn, the word Allie
was a set of 1. The word kitty may have been a set of 2 until she
realized it applied to all creatures that had a resemblance to Allie
and Zoomer. She may have thought pets also meant only Allie and
Zoomer but as she encountered more uses of the word, she expanded and
refined her meaning. (Interestingly it took a while for Kathryn to
figure out how to say Zoomer so she called both cats Allie and yet if
asked "Where's Allie?" she'd never point at Zoomer and she would
point at Zoomer when asked "Where's Zoomer?"

Related to the categorizing thought, some kids go through a stage of
thinking Daddy means man so all men are called Daddy. But through use
and context they shortly get it sorted it out.

So adding another baby talk word on top of all the words kids hear
for a single object really isn't a problem at all for them.

Joyce
Answers to common unschooling questions:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
Blog of writing prompts for speculative fiction writers:
http://dragonwritingprompts.blogsome.com/




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Drew & Tami

>>> Yesterday at our park day someone told
about a bumper sticker she'd seen that said, "Where are we going and
how did we get into this handbasket." I was surprised how many people
didn't get it and, turned out, had never heard the expression, "Going
to hell in a handbasket." <<<

Dang! All of a sudden-- or maybe I just missed it-- I've gone from being
one of the hip, young kids in a group to one of those "older folks" who
knows what the h*** a handbasket is! How did that happen?!?


>>>We have the interesting situation, too, of
my kids knowing a lot of "baby words" in Farsi, not English. They
call their father "Baba" - with the accent more on the second 'ba." <<<

We have "Baba" too-- because my daughter babbled "baba" instead of
"dada"-- and when she could see her dad, the "baba" got so much louder and
happier, that he just became "Baba" and it stuck. It's great in a
crowd...all the other kids are yelling "Daddy" or "Mama"-- we can always
hear "Baba"! (I think it's "Baba" in Mandarin Chinsese as well-- at least
it is on "Sagwa".)

We also have some odd combinations of english and japanese, which native
speakers of either language don't get. We can't help it...our japanese
pronunciation is just bad, but we try, and our linguistic constructs work
for us!

Tami, whose children order "Ba-Ni-Rah" milkshakes at McDonalds.


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