What do your kids do?
squeakybiscuit
I have toyed around with unschooling, and relaxed homeschooling and
was curious about a couple of things. My kids aren't the type to
really pursue an interest (other than video games) on their own. I
think there are some things learned through gaming, but there has
got to be more than that.
What exactly do your kids do? Any kids learning Algebra simply
because they want to? Foreign Language?
My kids gets lots of practice reading and writing through their
gaming interests, but we are at a loss for math. We are approaching
high school and right now are enrolled in a cyber charter school.
They are forced to do the higher maths, history etc... I'm not sure
they would do any of this on their own if we dropped the cyber
charter.
How do you get your kids to want to learn algebra, geometry,
calculus? I can't really find any everyday uses for these maths.
My kids aren't the type to just pick up a book and read it. They do
read websites, but that's about it. Do your kids read for the sheer
enjoyment of it?
What are your kids into? What are they learning from it? We kind of
did unschool for a few years but they didn't do much. They are not
behind their peers because of it, but they want to do it again and I
am hesitant now that they are approaching high school.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is does it take a certain KIND of
kid to unschool successfully? The type to find a topic and really
get into it? Mine don't do that. Also, how do you encourage learning
of high school subjects?
Erin
was curious about a couple of things. My kids aren't the type to
really pursue an interest (other than video games) on their own. I
think there are some things learned through gaming, but there has
got to be more than that.
What exactly do your kids do? Any kids learning Algebra simply
because they want to? Foreign Language?
My kids gets lots of practice reading and writing through their
gaming interests, but we are at a loss for math. We are approaching
high school and right now are enrolled in a cyber charter school.
They are forced to do the higher maths, history etc... I'm not sure
they would do any of this on their own if we dropped the cyber
charter.
How do you get your kids to want to learn algebra, geometry,
calculus? I can't really find any everyday uses for these maths.
My kids aren't the type to just pick up a book and read it. They do
read websites, but that's about it. Do your kids read for the sheer
enjoyment of it?
What are your kids into? What are they learning from it? We kind of
did unschool for a few years but they didn't do much. They are not
behind their peers because of it, but they want to do it again and I
am hesitant now that they are approaching high school.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is does it take a certain KIND of
kid to unschool successfully? The type to find a topic and really
get into it? Mine don't do that. Also, how do you encourage learning
of high school subjects?
Erin
Ren Allen
"I guess what I'm trying to get at is does it take a certain KIND of
kid to unschool successfully?"
No, it takes a certain kind of parent to unschool successfully.
"The type to find a topic and really
get into it? Mine don't do that."
Having been told what is important to learn and how to learn it,
doesn't facilitate much joy. Yours haven't had the opportunity to do
that first of all...secondly, why do they have to find a topic and
"get into it"?
Dabbling with lots of different things is ok too.
"Also, how do you encourage learning
of high school subjects?"
Why would you want to do that? Why are high school subjects important
to you? How do they help a person live a balanced, joyful life?
Before you can even consider unschooling, you might want to examine
your reasons and why you think school subjects are necessary.
I didn't learn anything of value in school, everything I learned that
is of value to me today, was learned from pure interest. Unschoolers
trust in real learning, which means that if a person is enjoying an
activity, there is learning happening.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
kid to unschool successfully?"
No, it takes a certain kind of parent to unschool successfully.
"The type to find a topic and really
get into it? Mine don't do that."
Having been told what is important to learn and how to learn it,
doesn't facilitate much joy. Yours haven't had the opportunity to do
that first of all...secondly, why do they have to find a topic and
"get into it"?
Dabbling with lots of different things is ok too.
"Also, how do you encourage learning
of high school subjects?"
Why would you want to do that? Why are high school subjects important
to you? How do they help a person live a balanced, joyful life?
Before you can even consider unschooling, you might want to examine
your reasons and why you think school subjects are necessary.
I didn't learn anything of value in school, everything I learned that
is of value to me today, was learned from pure interest. Unschoolers
trust in real learning, which means that if a person is enjoying an
activity, there is learning happening.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
squeakybiscuit
Ren,
Elementary school subjects are important to me because you have to
be able to read and write and do basic math in order to function in
life. I'm ok with unschooling these years because I think you DO get
enough practice in these areas just by living life.
High school subjects were really useless to me,personally. I never
used anything that I learned in school past the 6th grade. But...I
chose to not go to college and stay home with my family. Aren't high
school subjects necessary for college? Aren't they necessary for
some jobs? One of my children wants to be a veterinarian--won't she
have to study some advanced math to acheive that goal? Right now,
the other two have no desire for college (they are 12 and 13), but
what if they change their minds and find that they can't go to
college because they never learned algebra or geometry?
We tried unschooling for several years, we just didn't do school.
They didn't get into anything but gaming. They didn't "dabble in
alot of things". or pursue any interests other than gaming related
activities. They seem to have learned everything they needed to know
up to this point from this but I was concerned that if they change
their minds about college we will hedge them in, do you know what I
mean? The 13 year old would like to learn programming, and that
takes advanced math--but he doesn't have the motivation to bother to
learn it on his own. He just figures "I don't know that kind of
math, so I can't learn programming", rather than the goal being
enough for him to buckle down and learn it on his own.
Are your kids motivated enough to teach themselves what they need to
know to acheive their goals?
Erin
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Elementary school subjects are important to me because you have to
be able to read and write and do basic math in order to function in
life. I'm ok with unschooling these years because I think you DO get
enough practice in these areas just by living life.
High school subjects were really useless to me,personally. I never
used anything that I learned in school past the 6th grade. But...I
chose to not go to college and stay home with my family. Aren't high
school subjects necessary for college? Aren't they necessary for
some jobs? One of my children wants to be a veterinarian--won't she
have to study some advanced math to acheive that goal? Right now,
the other two have no desire for college (they are 12 and 13), but
what if they change their minds and find that they can't go to
college because they never learned algebra or geometry?
We tried unschooling for several years, we just didn't do school.
They didn't get into anything but gaming. They didn't "dabble in
alot of things". or pursue any interests other than gaming related
activities. They seem to have learned everything they needed to know
up to this point from this but I was concerned that if they change
their minds about college we will hedge them in, do you know what I
mean? The 13 year old would like to learn programming, and that
takes advanced math--but he doesn't have the motivation to bother to
learn it on his own. He just figures "I don't know that kind of
math, so I can't learn programming", rather than the goal being
enough for him to buckle down and learn it on his own.
Are your kids motivated enough to teach themselves what they need to
know to acheive their goals?
Erin
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>of
> "I guess what I'm trying to get at is does it take a certain KIND
> kid to unschool successfully?"do
>
> No, it takes a certain kind of parent to unschool successfully.
>
> "The type to find a topic and really
> get into it? Mine don't do that."
>
> Having been told what is important to learn and how to learn it,
> doesn't facilitate much joy. Yours haven't had the opportunity to
> that first of all...secondly, why do they have to find a topic andimportant
> "get into it"?
> Dabbling with lots of different things is ok too.
>
> "Also, how do you encourage learning
> of high school subjects?"
>
> Why would you want to do that? Why are high school subjects
> to you? How do they help a person live a balanced, joyful life?that
>
> Before you can even consider unschooling, you might want to examine
> your reasons and why you think school subjects are necessary.
> I didn't learn anything of value in school, everything I learned
> is of value to me today, was learned from pure interest.Unschoolers
> trust in real learning, which means that if a person is enjoying an
> activity, there is learning happening.
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 2/5/2006 7:24:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
squeakybiscuit@... writes:
Bingo!
Here's a really great "rant" on just that subject, believe it or not,
written by one of the brothers who has the NPR show, "Car Talk." And he doesn't
even homeschool his kid(s)!
_Education: The Learning of Skills We Will Never Need?_
(http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/ATC/)
or
_http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/ATC/_
(http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/ATC/)
One other note on foreign language: For years I tried to get my kids to
learn a foreign language, and probably bought every program imaginable to get
them interested in it. Well my (now 22 year old) daughter got a job at the
only Mexican Restaurant in town, and now speaks fluent, and I mean FLUENT
spanish...she never would have learned this from a curriculum. And my son just got
hired there (he's 17, first job) so most likely, he'll learn it also. They
will learn what they want to learn and what they need to learn to be what and
who they want to be! :o)
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
squeakybiscuit@... writes:
>>How do you get your kids to want to learn algebra, geometry,calculus? I can't really find any everyday uses for these maths.<<
Bingo!
Here's a really great "rant" on just that subject, believe it or not,
written by one of the brothers who has the NPR show, "Car Talk." And he doesn't
even homeschool his kid(s)!
_Education: The Learning of Skills We Will Never Need?_
(http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/ATC/)
or
_http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/ATC/_
(http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/ATC/)
One other note on foreign language: For years I tried to get my kids to
learn a foreign language, and probably bought every program imaginable to get
them interested in it. Well my (now 22 year old) daughter got a job at the
only Mexican Restaurant in town, and now speaks fluent, and I mean FLUENT
spanish...she never would have learned this from a curriculum. And my son just got
hired there (he's 17, first job) so most likely, he'll learn it also. They
will learn what they want to learn and what they need to learn to be what and
who they want to be! :o)
Nancy B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:49 PM, squeakybiscuit wrote:
Are you?
Do you ever watch DVDs in other languages, or put the French
subtitles on?
Do you mess with math puzzles and show the kids the fun parts?
(Would you do it if you didn't have kids?)
When you need to figure out something like how much potting soil to
buy or how much cloth, do you figure it out aloud and let the kids
share in your calculations?
-=-I guess what I'm trying to get at is does it take a certain KIND of
kid to unschool successfully?-=-
It takes a certain parental attitude. We can help you find that!
And as you find it, it will change your kids, and it will change
you. It will change the relationship between you and them. It will
change the way you see learning.
-=-We are approaching
high school and right now are enrolled in a cyber charter school.
They are forced to do the higher maths, history etc...-=-
If they're in school, unschooling isn't an issue. If they've been in
school and being taught, they've been learning more than anything
else not to do things they don't "have" to do. Bummer.
School "forces" them to do higher maths?
School "forces" them to "do" history? What would "doing history"
really be?
-=-My kids aren't the type to just pick up a book and read it. They do
read websites, but that's about it.-=-
If you want to read a website, try this one:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Tell me when you think "that's about it." (Oh... follow at least
half of the links, too!)
-=-What are your kids into? What are they learning from it? We kind of
did unschool for a few years but they didn't do much.-=-
Kind of doing unschooling is not unschooling. If it's just not doing
school, it's a vacation, a lull.
Here are some typical days of unschooling families you might benefit
from reading:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Any kids learning Algebra simply======================
> because they want to? Foreign Language?
Are you?
Do you ever watch DVDs in other languages, or put the French
subtitles on?
Do you mess with math puzzles and show the kids the fun parts?
(Would you do it if you didn't have kids?)
When you need to figure out something like how much potting soil to
buy or how much cloth, do you figure it out aloud and let the kids
share in your calculations?
-=-I guess what I'm trying to get at is does it take a certain KIND of
kid to unschool successfully?-=-
It takes a certain parental attitude. We can help you find that!
And as you find it, it will change your kids, and it will change
you. It will change the relationship between you and them. It will
change the way you see learning.
-=-We are approaching
high school and right now are enrolled in a cyber charter school.
They are forced to do the higher maths, history etc...-=-
If they're in school, unschooling isn't an issue. If they've been in
school and being taught, they've been learning more than anything
else not to do things they don't "have" to do. Bummer.
School "forces" them to do higher maths?
School "forces" them to "do" history? What would "doing history"
really be?
-=-My kids aren't the type to just pick up a book and read it. They do
read websites, but that's about it.-=-
If you want to read a website, try this one:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
Tell me when you think "that's about it." (Oh... follow at least
half of the links, too!)
-=-What are your kids into? What are they learning from it? We kind of
did unschool for a few years but they didn't do much.-=-
Kind of doing unschooling is not unschooling. If it's just not doing
school, it's a vacation, a lull.
Here are some typical days of unschooling families you might benefit
from reading:
http://sandradodd.com/typical
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
" He just figures "I don't know that kind of
math, so I can't learn programming", rather than the goal being
enough for him to buckle down and learn it on his own."
You're going about this as backwards as the school system. Telling him
he "needs" to learn higher math in order to do programming isn't true.
One can learn all they need of math by DOING programming.
That's a great way to squelch his joy and interest, that's all.
When my child is interested in learning something new, we go after
information on that topic, we don't pre-learn all the skills you might
need in order to do that thing...we just DO it!
Trevor learned how to build a computer, network, repair and some basic
HTML because he loves technology. When he needed information, we found
a fun person for him to hang out with that was a computer whiz and
through their friendship, Trevor learned all he wanted for that time
in his life.
Mostly he games. That's ok. He doesn't need to worry about college
until college is in his sights. How would an adult go back to school
in their 30's or 40's (or any other age)? The same way anyone goes to
college, by finding out the requirements, fulfilling them (or finding
a community college to start with) and doing some test prep.
You're looking for interest everywhere but where your child actually
HAS interest. Any topic a person loves (including gaming) can lead to
everything in the UNIVERSE. Truly.
If you want unschooling to work for the older ages, you have to trust
it first. Right now, you trust school topics more than the passions
your child has this very moment. That isn't going to help them feel
validated.
The things you labelled as important school topics at elementary ages
are easily picked up by living LIFE. Nothing changes when a person
gets older as far as natural learning goes. Human beings that are
alive and growing are learning. Learning is just part of living and
growing.....
You're worrying about what you're kids aren't doing, and you're
missing all the cool things they ARE doing. Life is short, look away
from school and see them for the interesting human beings they are.
Not broken, not missing anything.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
math, so I can't learn programming", rather than the goal being
enough for him to buckle down and learn it on his own."
You're going about this as backwards as the school system. Telling him
he "needs" to learn higher math in order to do programming isn't true.
One can learn all they need of math by DOING programming.
That's a great way to squelch his joy and interest, that's all.
When my child is interested in learning something new, we go after
information on that topic, we don't pre-learn all the skills you might
need in order to do that thing...we just DO it!
Trevor learned how to build a computer, network, repair and some basic
HTML because he loves technology. When he needed information, we found
a fun person for him to hang out with that was a computer whiz and
through their friendship, Trevor learned all he wanted for that time
in his life.
Mostly he games. That's ok. He doesn't need to worry about college
until college is in his sights. How would an adult go back to school
in their 30's or 40's (or any other age)? The same way anyone goes to
college, by finding out the requirements, fulfilling them (or finding
a community college to start with) and doing some test prep.
You're looking for interest everywhere but where your child actually
HAS interest. Any topic a person loves (including gaming) can lead to
everything in the UNIVERSE. Truly.
If you want unschooling to work for the older ages, you have to trust
it first. Right now, you trust school topics more than the passions
your child has this very moment. That isn't going to help them feel
validated.
The things you labelled as important school topics at elementary ages
are easily picked up by living LIFE. Nothing changes when a person
gets older as far as natural learning goes. Human beings that are
alive and growing are learning. Learning is just part of living and
growing.....
You're worrying about what you're kids aren't doing, and you're
missing all the cool things they ARE doing. Life is short, look away
from school and see them for the interesting human beings they are.
Not broken, not missing anything.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
sarah
"squeakybiscuit" wrote:
I've talked about my husband before, but I think he is a wonderful
example in this situation, so I'm going to bring him up again :) He
left high school at 14. Wow! Good for him. He left so that he
could....play around on the computer! There were other reasons, of
course, but he did play around on computers a lot. He started by
playing games. Then taking computers apart. Then starting to write
basic code.
He left this interest for awhile.
Joined a band.
Followed The Dead.
Got me pregnant:)
Went to college...In computer science.
Now he has a lucrative career managing an engineering team and
writing software for lawyers. He wants to start his own consulting
company. He will, if he wants to, I have no doubt!
I've asked him before what his advice is for people who say their
kids have no interest in anything other than gaming. He said, "Do
anything you can to get your kids addicted to the computer,
seriously." He was only kind of kidding.
When he went to college, he had to start at the *very* beginning in
math, but he ended up going far in math...one class short of a
minor. He did incredibly well! He did well because he wanted to
get his CS degree. He did well because he was *ready* to learn.
Learning math was finally applicable in his real life.
Computer interest can lead to so many things: a good career, new
acquaintances, new parts of the world (he's traveled all over as a
consultant), lots of math, and law and sports and.... the list goes
on.
Glenn was lucky he had a Mom that helped him acquire computers when
not every family had them, he was lucky he could leave school to
pursue his interests, and we're all lucky he has a job he loves now!
Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
>My kids aren't the type to
> really pursue an interest (other than video games) on their own. IHi!
> think there are some things learned through gaming, but there has
> got to be more than that.
I've talked about my husband before, but I think he is a wonderful
example in this situation, so I'm going to bring him up again :) He
left high school at 14. Wow! Good for him. He left so that he
could....play around on the computer! There were other reasons, of
course, but he did play around on computers a lot. He started by
playing games. Then taking computers apart. Then starting to write
basic code.
He left this interest for awhile.
Joined a band.
Followed The Dead.
Got me pregnant:)
Went to college...In computer science.
Now he has a lucrative career managing an engineering team and
writing software for lawyers. He wants to start his own consulting
company. He will, if he wants to, I have no doubt!
I've asked him before what his advice is for people who say their
kids have no interest in anything other than gaming. He said, "Do
anything you can to get your kids addicted to the computer,
seriously." He was only kind of kidding.
When he went to college, he had to start at the *very* beginning in
math, but he ended up going far in math...one class short of a
minor. He did incredibly well! He did well because he wanted to
get his CS degree. He did well because he was *ready* to learn.
Learning math was finally applicable in his real life.
Computer interest can lead to so many things: a good career, new
acquaintances, new parts of the world (he's traveled all over as a
consultant), lots of math, and law and sports and.... the list goes
on.
Glenn was lucky he had a Mom that helped him acquire computers when
not every family had them, he was lucky he could leave school to
pursue his interests, and we're all lucky he has a job he loves now!
Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
Pamela Sorooshian
>I have one kid who has a great love of math and says she might want
> On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:49 PM, squeakybiscuit wrote:
>
>> Any kids learning Algebra simply
>> because they want to?
to be an engineer of some kind - and, yes, she is doing math for fun.
Right now, as I type this, she is doing an online math program.
Someone told us about it, she tried it for the three hour trial
period and then asked me to subscribe to it. She's had it a week and
has used it for about 9 or 10 hours this week. This is a kid who used
to stay up at night doing math puzzles - she'd be so sleepy, but kept
wanting to just do a little more.
My oldest daughter did math in college - never really did any as an
unschooler - but she just started from the lowest math class in
college and moved on up, doing fine at each level. She didn't take
very advanced math - but loved statistics and has taken some research
methods courses.
My middle daughter wants to go to a selective college and so she's
decided she needs to study some math in order to do well on the SAT.
Also the school has some minimum requirements in math. So she's doing
the same online math program.
>> Foreign Language?Roxana LOVES to learn foreign languages - she subscribed to a daily
email program for a year and learned a lot of Norwegian that way.
She's learned a lot of foreign language - various languages - by
learning musical theater pieces in other languages. She sometimes
watches French movies, in French, or in English with French
subtitles. She has dabbled like this for years - picked up a lot. A
few weeks ago she bought a Harry Potter book - in Latin - just for
the fun of working some of it out. In college, she took a French
class and did really well and loved it.
My point in telling these things is that, yes, there are kids who
will pursue these "subjects" for fun. But not all kids will do this -
my other kids have no interest in foreign language, for example. Rox
isn't really very interested in algebra or geometry (in a formal
sense) but has chosen to study them because she has a greater goal
that requires it. She's 18.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 5, 2006, at 8:09 PM, Ren Allen wrote:
set up stereo systems with turntables and remote speakers. It scares
me, but I can do it.
I learned a new HTML trick just tonight! Mouseover. I got it wrong
three times, but kept trying. Then it was working, but moved the box
below it around. I figured out how to make that stop.
http://sandradodd.com/houseandyard
If you put the mouse over the photo of the kids, it changes.
The rest of that page isn't great, but look at this one:
http://sandradodd.com/england
The long photo of Holly in the water at Normandy beach... that
involved Adobe photoshop and learning how to put in tables in better
ways than I had done before that point.
Because I learned how, I've helped a couple of my kids do things
(though they pick it up quicker and with less fear).
The question of "what do your kids do?" is what I've been writing
about for twelve years. I can't summarize it all now, but it's not
what my kids do, it's how and why they have the freedom and
encouragement to do what they do.
-=-You're looking for interest everywhere but where your child actually
HAS interest. Any topic a person loves (including gaming) can lead to
everything in the UNIVERSE. Truly.-=-
Some suggestions for starting to believe that claim. Everything is
truly connected.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/connections
Sandra
> Trevor learned how to build a computer, network, repair and some basicI fear hardware, but I have programmed complicated VCRs before, and
> HTML because he loves technology.
set up stereo systems with turntables and remote speakers. It scares
me, but I can do it.
I learned a new HTML trick just tonight! Mouseover. I got it wrong
three times, but kept trying. Then it was working, but moved the box
below it around. I figured out how to make that stop.
http://sandradodd.com/houseandyard
If you put the mouse over the photo of the kids, it changes.
The rest of that page isn't great, but look at this one:
http://sandradodd.com/england
The long photo of Holly in the water at Normandy beach... that
involved Adobe photoshop and learning how to put in tables in better
ways than I had done before that point.
Because I learned how, I've helped a couple of my kids do things
(though they pick it up quicker and with less fear).
The question of "what do your kids do?" is what I've been writing
about for twelve years. I can't summarize it all now, but it's not
what my kids do, it's how and why they have the freedom and
encouragement to do what they do.
-=-You're looking for interest everywhere but where your child actually
HAS interest. Any topic a person loves (including gaming) can lead to
everything in the UNIVERSE. Truly.-=-
Some suggestions for starting to believe that claim. Everything is
truly connected.
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
http://sandradodd.com/connections
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 5, 2006, at 9:35 PM, sarah wrote:
A friend of ours, the dad of the family Holly stayed with in England,
finished high school but didn't go to college. He could already at
that point create a Macintosh computer from scattered Mac parts, and
do any hardware or software thing anyone could request. His dad was
an Apple technician from the early days of Mac, and the son's life
was filled with opportunities.
This is Leon McNeill, of whom I'm speaking. Anyone with a Mac
interest might have heard of him, but you could look him up. No
computer science degree, no math degree, no engineering. Just
obsession and joy. <g>
He's not the Leon McNeill associated with Newman University and
Catholic school grants, nor the one in prison in Oklahoma. (Just
googled his name. <g>) He's this one:
Leon McNeill
Senior Software
Developer Softchaos Ltd
http://www.softchaos.com
and his own company is Lairware.
http://www.lairware.com
Oh...
I think he's in his mid 30's.
Both parents are from Albuquerque. Their 2nd child was just born
when they moved to England temporarily (for the mom to finish a
degree); they're still there six years later, have a third child, mom
got a master's degree, dad has a job that keeps saying "Six more
months, please."
The mom is Heléne McNeill, for those who are in the U.K. and watch
Time Team. She is about to be or has been on two or three times.
You'll recognize her as the frizzy-haired loud American.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Computer interest can lead to so many things: a good career, new-------------------------------------
> acquaintances, new parts of the world (he's traveled all over as a
> consultant), lots of math, and law and sports and.... the list goes
> on.
A friend of ours, the dad of the family Holly stayed with in England,
finished high school but didn't go to college. He could already at
that point create a Macintosh computer from scattered Mac parts, and
do any hardware or software thing anyone could request. His dad was
an Apple technician from the early days of Mac, and the son's life
was filled with opportunities.
This is Leon McNeill, of whom I'm speaking. Anyone with a Mac
interest might have heard of him, but you could look him up. No
computer science degree, no math degree, no engineering. Just
obsession and joy. <g>
He's not the Leon McNeill associated with Newman University and
Catholic school grants, nor the one in prison in Oklahoma. (Just
googled his name. <g>) He's this one:
Leon McNeill
Senior Software
Developer Softchaos Ltd
http://www.softchaos.com
and his own company is Lairware.
http://www.lairware.com
Oh...
I think he's in his mid 30's.
Both parents are from Albuquerque. Their 2nd child was just born
when they moved to England temporarily (for the mom to finish a
degree); they're still there six years later, have a third child, mom
got a master's degree, dad has a job that keeps saying "Six more
months, please."
The mom is Heléne McNeill, for those who are in the U.K. and watch
Time Team. She is about to be or has been on two or three times.
You'll recognize her as the frizzy-haired loud American.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi klein
HI Pam,
Could you please tell me which online math your daughter is doing...I have a
daughter that is interested in doing some math too!
Thanks
Heidi
Could you please tell me which online math your daughter is doing...I have a
daughter that is interested in doing some math too!
Thanks
Heidi
On 2/5/06, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> > On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:49 PM, squeakybiscuit wrote:
> >
> >> Any kids learning Algebra simply
> >> because they want to?
>
> I have one kid who has a great love of math and says she might want
> to be an engineer of some kind - and, yes, she is doing math for fun.
> Right now, as I type this, she is doing an online math program.
> Someone told us about it, she tried it for the three hour trial
> period and then asked me to subscribe to it. She's had it a week and
> has used it for about 9 or 10 hours this week. This is a kid who used
> to stay up at night doing math puzzles - she'd be so sleepy, but kept
> wanting to just do a little more.
>
> My oldest daughter did math in college - never really did any as an
> unschooler - but she just started from the lowest math class in
> college and moved on up, doing fine at each level. She didn't take
> very advanced math - but loved statistics and has taken some research
> methods courses.
>
> My middle daughter wants to go to a selective college and so she's
> decided she needs to study some math in order to do well on the SAT.
> Also the school has some minimum requirements in math. So she's doing
> the same online math program.
>
> >> Foreign Language?
>
> Roxana LOVES to learn foreign languages - she subscribed to a daily
> email program for a year and learned a lot of Norwegian that way.
> She's learned a lot of foreign language - various languages - by
> learning musical theater pieces in other languages. She sometimes
> watches French movies, in French, or in English with French
> subtitles. She has dabbled like this for years - picked up a lot. A
> few weeks ago she bought a Harry Potter book - in Latin - just for
> the fun of working some of it out. In college, she took a French
> class and did really well and loved it.
>
> My point in telling these things is that, yes, there are kids who
> will pursue these "subjects" for fun. But not all kids will do this -
> my other kids have no interest in foreign language, for example. Rox
> isn't really very interested in algebra or geometry (in a formal
> sense) but has chosen to study them because she has a greater goal
> that requires it. She's 18.
>
> -pam
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <
> http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelli Traaseth
***My kids aren't the type to
really pursue an interest (other than video games) on their own.***
Don't let them do it on their own, join in. Talk with them about their video games, try and see why they like it so much. There is so much in those games, its not a wonder that they are so intriguing. Keeps your mind working all the time and us humans do like that. ;) You might even enjoy playing too! I do. :D
****I
think there are some things learned through gaming, but there has
got to be more than that.****
My kids do ALOT of gaming, from online multi playing games, computer games, game console games, hand helds to board games and card games.
The thing is, is that gaming is so much, it has so much in it and it can lead to so much more too.
I could list all the things that my kids have learned from those games, but sometimes I think people also miss the point when I do that. The point of understanding unschooling. You have to see that a person will learn what that person needs to learn. And as a parent to an unschooler we have to be ok with what our children want to do. Once you can be ok with that a whole new world will open for you.
Back to my first comment, "don't let them do it on their own" this is where the gaming can just go and go and go. :D
Help them to see more about what they like in the game. One example of my son going on a tangent with gaming is his playing Final Fantasy XI. Final Fantasy XI is a MMORP (massively multiplayer online role playing) game. He played that game for months, and tons of challenges and fun in it. One of his tangents was learning about Samurais. He had to level a character to a high level and then he could unlock Samurai. He loved it. I thought maybe he'd like to learn more about samurais so we borrowed The Last Samurai, he loved it. Watched it 2 or 3 times, watched all the extras.
We then got the mini series Shogun. I thought he might like it. He wasn't sure at first because he didn't like the way it looked. It looked "old" to him. It is dated, but we gave it a try. After the first segment he was hooked as was I, trying to remember it from my childhood <g>. We got them all from Netflix. It was great.
He also was online quite a bit looking up things about them--he especially likes armor and weaponry.
Now, zoom ahead to this past Christmas, 6 months later, and we're having a dinner with my in-laws and a neighbor(who is an English professor) We're all talking and find out that our neighbor spent a few years in Japan researching their history. Cool,,, my son starts asking him about samurai, we start talking about the movie and tv show.
My neighbor can't believe how much he knows about Japan and these ancient warriors.
All from gaming,,,, well and all that it leads to...
My kids are living such a happy life and the learning is sooo happening. The math happens, the reading happens, it really DOES happen.
Kelli Traaseth = gaming mom :D
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really pursue an interest (other than video games) on their own.***
Don't let them do it on their own, join in. Talk with them about their video games, try and see why they like it so much. There is so much in those games, its not a wonder that they are so intriguing. Keeps your mind working all the time and us humans do like that. ;) You might even enjoy playing too! I do. :D
****I
think there are some things learned through gaming, but there has
got to be more than that.****
My kids do ALOT of gaming, from online multi playing games, computer games, game console games, hand helds to board games and card games.
The thing is, is that gaming is so much, it has so much in it and it can lead to so much more too.
I could list all the things that my kids have learned from those games, but sometimes I think people also miss the point when I do that. The point of understanding unschooling. You have to see that a person will learn what that person needs to learn. And as a parent to an unschooler we have to be ok with what our children want to do. Once you can be ok with that a whole new world will open for you.
Back to my first comment, "don't let them do it on their own" this is where the gaming can just go and go and go. :D
Help them to see more about what they like in the game. One example of my son going on a tangent with gaming is his playing Final Fantasy XI. Final Fantasy XI is a MMORP (massively multiplayer online role playing) game. He played that game for months, and tons of challenges and fun in it. One of his tangents was learning about Samurais. He had to level a character to a high level and then he could unlock Samurai. He loved it. I thought maybe he'd like to learn more about samurais so we borrowed The Last Samurai, he loved it. Watched it 2 or 3 times, watched all the extras.
We then got the mini series Shogun. I thought he might like it. He wasn't sure at first because he didn't like the way it looked. It looked "old" to him. It is dated, but we gave it a try. After the first segment he was hooked as was I, trying to remember it from my childhood <g>. We got them all from Netflix. It was great.
He also was online quite a bit looking up things about them--he especially likes armor and weaponry.
Now, zoom ahead to this past Christmas, 6 months later, and we're having a dinner with my in-laws and a neighbor(who is an English professor) We're all talking and find out that our neighbor spent a few years in Japan researching their history. Cool,,, my son starts asking him about samurai, we start talking about the movie and tv show.
My neighbor can't believe how much he knows about Japan and these ancient warriors.
All from gaming,,,, well and all that it leads to...
My kids are living such a happy life and the learning is sooo happening. The math happens, the reading happens, it really DOES happen.
Kelli Traaseth = gaming mom :D
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Kelli Traaseth
***What exactly do your kids do? Any kids learning Algebra simply
because they want to? Foreign Language?****
I also wanted to quick comment on this. This will be shorter, promise! <g>
As far as Algebra,,,why do people worry about Algebra? I've never used my algebra since leaving school. I guess i've figured out things I need when I need them,, kind of algebra, figuring out X. But my kids do that all the time and they've never been taught it. I wouldn't worry about that.
But as for foreign language, my daughter loves languages. She's wanted to learn different ones for years and she's only 11. We've drawn Chinese characters, Japanese, read Spanish, French, Norwegian, and elvish. :D Now, we aren't fluent in any of those,, yet. But I know if she wants to, it will happen.
Her language interests also get nurtured within gaming, ah huh! In our new game we're playing, WOW, (world of warcraft) there are different races with different languages. :D So, she now is trying to decypher those different languages that she can't speak. We are currently trying to find an ad-on so we can communicate with the different races and just last night she went through our alphabet to me (on another computer) in a different language to see how the whole thing corresponded with English. <g> I never thought of doing that.
Kelli~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
because they want to? Foreign Language?****
I also wanted to quick comment on this. This will be shorter, promise! <g>
As far as Algebra,,,why do people worry about Algebra? I've never used my algebra since leaving school. I guess i've figured out things I need when I need them,, kind of algebra, figuring out X. But my kids do that all the time and they've never been taught it. I wouldn't worry about that.
But as for foreign language, my daughter loves languages. She's wanted to learn different ones for years and she's only 11. We've drawn Chinese characters, Japanese, read Spanish, French, Norwegian, and elvish. :D Now, we aren't fluent in any of those,, yet. But I know if she wants to, it will happen.
Her language interests also get nurtured within gaming, ah huh! In our new game we're playing, WOW, (world of warcraft) there are different races with different languages. :D So, she now is trying to decypher those different languages that she can't speak. We are currently trying to find an ad-on so we can communicate with the different races and just last night she went through our alphabet to me (on another computer) in a different language to see how the whole thing corresponded with English. <g> I never thought of doing that.
Kelli~
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
> I have aLet's not lose sight of unschooling, please, in this discussion.
> daughter that is interested in doing some math too!
Formal study of a course of mathematical concept and notation
shouldn't be (by unschoolers) equated with "doing math." It will
screw up our unschooling thinking if we use school terminology
without disclaimers or qualifiers.
Holly was doing math (real math) yesterday when they decided who owed
what and what the tip should be at IHOP.
Marty was doing math when he decided which paycheck would be best to
pay for his ticket to California (he's paying his own way to a
homeschooling day at Legoland, and going out without the family).
Kirby was doing math yesterday when he used PayPal to buy some gold/
points for an online game he's playing (which Marty says is "just
wrong" and "cheating," but Kirby says is "discouraged"). He was
doing some pretty real math when he was trying to explain to me what
all that would be like in terms of Neopoints, and considering how
many minutes of game play it takes to get how many points (in his
game and mine) and what that time and effort is worth in dollars, in
the reasoning through which he was working.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 6, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
It does kind of miss the point, but on the other hand it IS the point!
That was great, Kelli. I have enshrined it, and when I went to find
a place to put it, I found there was already some good similar stuff!
http://sandradodd.com/game/benefits
Sandra
> I could list all the things that my kids have learned from those======================
> games, but sometimes I think people also miss the point when I do
> that. The point of understanding unschooling. You have to see
> that a person will learn what that person needs to learn. And as a
> parent to an unschooler we have to be ok with what our children
> want to do. Once you can be ok with that a whole new world will
> open for you.
It does kind of miss the point, but on the other hand it IS the point!
That was great, Kelli. I have enshrined it, and when I went to find
a place to put it, I found there was already some good similar stuff!
http://sandradodd.com/game/benefits
Sandra
Deb
--- In [email protected], "squeakybiscuit"
<squeakybiscuit@...> wrote:
facilitate how SHE wants to get there.
have to learn it before they are 17 (or 18 or 62...)
1990, it does NOT take advanced mathematics to understand
programming. It takes orderly thinking (this first, then this) and
creativity (both of which abound in video game players). It's like
creating a recipe almost. My DH learned to design websites (HTML
programming) with just barely a high school diploma (that is, he got
by enough to keep the school off his back but didn't really learn
anything there - he learned by programming on an old TRS-80 era type
computer). Again, your job is to facilitate. So, go out to Borders
or B&N and find some Intro to programming books. Visual Basic is
pretty simple (and is one of the Intro classes one would take in
high school or college anyhow). Java programming can get you a job
without a college degree. Get a Lego Mindstorms set to play with.
walk across the living room? Were your kids motivated enough to
repeat 'mik, mik, mik' enough times until you 'got it' and gave them
milk...and maybe said 'Here's your milk' and next time it got a
little closer to 'milk' than 'mik' because it got them to their goal
sooner.
What it really sounds like is that -you- are worried because you see
learning as something that ends at age 17 or 18 and then life
happens and you have to have everything you need packed in before 18
or you'll never be able to do anything. Try telling that to my DH
who went to college at 27 because he hated school so much he vowed
never to set foot in a classroom again when he graduated high
school. Then he found something HE wanted to do, applied, and took
all the CLEP exams (college level exam for placement - they have
them in math, science, arts, history, etc - pretty much all areas)
and tested out of 1 1/2 semesters of intro coursework - he said the
tests were like playing Jeopardy! Very little was related to stuff
he learned in school, except insofar as there was reading and basic
math involved (and you already said your kids have that covered
anyhow).
--Deb
<squeakybiscuit@...> wrote:
>One of my children wants to be a veterinarian--won't sheYeah - but if that's HER goal, then it's HER choice and you
> have to study some advanced math to acheive that goal?
facilitate how SHE wants to get there.
>Right now,Then they can learn it WHEN they need it. There is no reason they
> the other two have no desire for college (they are 12 and 13), but
> what if they change their minds and find that they can't go to
> college because they never learned algebra or geometry?
have to learn it before they are 17 (or 18 or 62...)
> I was concerned that if they changeFYI as one who has worked in high tech software companies since
> their minds about college we will hedge them in, do you know what
>I
> mean? The 13 year old would like to learn programming, and that
> takes advanced math--but he doesn't have the motivation to bother
>to
> learn it on his own. He just figures "I don't know that kind of
> math, so I can't learn programming", rather than the goal being
> enough for him to buckle down and learn it on his own.
1990, it does NOT take advanced mathematics to understand
programming. It takes orderly thinking (this first, then this) and
creativity (both of which abound in video game players). It's like
creating a recipe almost. My DH learned to design websites (HTML
programming) with just barely a high school diploma (that is, he got
by enough to keep the school off his back but didn't really learn
anything there - he learned by programming on an old TRS-80 era type
computer). Again, your job is to facilitate. So, go out to Borders
or B&N and find some Intro to programming books. Visual Basic is
pretty simple (and is one of the Intro classes one would take in
high school or college anyhow). Java programming can get you a job
without a college degree. Get a Lego Mindstorms set to play with.
> Are your kids motivated enough to teach themselves what they needWere your kids motivated enough to handle repeated falls to finally
>to
> know to acheive their goals?
walk across the living room? Were your kids motivated enough to
repeat 'mik, mik, mik' enough times until you 'got it' and gave them
milk...and maybe said 'Here's your milk' and next time it got a
little closer to 'milk' than 'mik' because it got them to their goal
sooner.
What it really sounds like is that -you- are worried because you see
learning as something that ends at age 17 or 18 and then life
happens and you have to have everything you need packed in before 18
or you'll never be able to do anything. Try telling that to my DH
who went to college at 27 because he hated school so much he vowed
never to set foot in a classroom again when he graduated high
school. Then he found something HE wanted to do, applied, and took
all the CLEP exams (college level exam for placement - they have
them in math, science, arts, history, etc - pretty much all areas)
and tested out of 1 1/2 semesters of intro coursework - he said the
tests were like playing Jeopardy! Very little was related to stuff
he learned in school, except insofar as there was reading and basic
math involved (and you already said your kids have that covered
anyhow).
--Deb
Pamela Sorooshian
<ALEKS.com>
But I'm not particularly recommending it and certainly don't think
parents should try to make their kids do it. It just HAPPENS to
appeal to my 15 year old who has always liked math workbooks and math
games/puzzles. Neither of my other two did formal math like this as
unschoolers.
It isn't good for learning what I consider real math - math
reasoning, math concepts, logic, etc. It is dry computational stuff
only. How to multiply fractions with absolutely NO motivation for why
anyone would want to multiply fractions or what the answer really
means when you get it.
Good for my daughter who, at 15, has been fascinated with real-life
math, played games involving math, and been interested in and talked
about math concepts all her life. She's filling in stuff she never
happened to learn how to do and she's liking that a lot.
For my older daughter, 18, who wants to do formal algebra and
geometry programs, this seems good because she can do it and IM with
friends at the same time. She's all about multi-tasking! <G>
-pam
But I'm not particularly recommending it and certainly don't think
parents should try to make their kids do it. It just HAPPENS to
appeal to my 15 year old who has always liked math workbooks and math
games/puzzles. Neither of my other two did formal math like this as
unschoolers.
It isn't good for learning what I consider real math - math
reasoning, math concepts, logic, etc. It is dry computational stuff
only. How to multiply fractions with absolutely NO motivation for why
anyone would want to multiply fractions or what the answer really
means when you get it.
Good for my daughter who, at 15, has been fascinated with real-life
math, played games involving math, and been interested in and talked
about math concepts all her life. She's filling in stuff she never
happened to learn how to do and she's liking that a lot.
For my older daughter, 18, who wants to do formal algebra and
geometry programs, this seems good because she can do it and IM with
friends at the same time. She's all about multi-tasking! <G>
-pam
On Feb 6, 2006, at 7:00 AM, Heidi klein wrote:
> HI Pam,
> Could you please tell me which online math your daughter is
> doing...I have a
> daughter that is interested in doing some math too!
> Thanks
> Heidi
>
> On 2/5/06, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 5, 2006, at 4:49 PM, squeakybiscuit wrote:
>>>
>>>> Any kids learning Algebra simply
>>>> because they want to?
>>
>> I have one kid who has a great love of math and says she might want
>> to be an engineer of some kind - and, yes, she is doing math for fun.
>> Right now, as I type this, she is doing an online math program.
>> Someone told us about it, she tried it for the three hour trial
>> period and then asked me to subscribe to it. She's had it a week and
>> has used it for about 9 or 10 hours this week. This is a kid who used
>> to stay up at night doing math puzzles - she'd be so sleepy, but kept
>> wanting to just do a little more.
>>
>> My oldest daughter did math in college - never really did any as an
>> unschooler - but she just started from the lowest math class in
>> college and moved on up, doing fine at each level. She didn't take
>> very advanced math - but loved statistics and has taken some research
>> methods courses.
>>
>> My middle daughter wants to go to a selective college and so she's
>> decided she needs to study some math in order to do well on the SAT.
>> Also the school has some minimum requirements in math. So she's doing
>> the same online math program.
>>
>>>> Foreign Language?
>>
>> Roxana LOVES to learn foreign languages - she subscribed to a daily
>> email program for a year and learned a lot of Norwegian that way.
>> She's learned a lot of foreign language - various languages - by
>> learning musical theater pieces in other languages. She sometimes
>> watches French movies, in French, or in English with French
>> subtitles. She has dabbled like this for years - picked up a lot. A
>> few weeks ago she bought a Harry Potter book - in Latin - just for
>> the fun of working some of it out. In college, she took a French
>> class and did really well and loved it.
>>
>> My point in telling these things is that, yes, there are kids who
>> will pursue these "subjects" for fun. But not all kids will do this -
>> my other kids have no interest in foreign language, for example. Rox
>> isn't really very interested in algebra or geometry (in a formal
>> sense) but has chosen to study them because she has a greater goal
>> that requires it. She's 18.
>>
>> -pam
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>>
>> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <
>> http://www.unschooling.info>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://
> www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
Kelli Traaseth
***It does kind of miss the point, but on the other hand it IS the point!***
lol, exactly. :) And I think that's why its so hard to explain too. The simplicity of it all, yet the complexity. <g>
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
lol, exactly. :) And I think that's why its so hard to explain too. The simplicity of it all, yet the complexity. <g>
Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
On Feb 6, 2006, at 8:17 AM, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
> I could list all the things that my kids have learned from those
> games, but sometimes I think people also miss the point when I do
> that. The point of understanding unschooling. You have to see
> that a person will learn what that person needs to learn. And as a
> parent to an unschooler we have to be ok with what our children
> want to do. Once you can be ok with that a whole new world will
> open for you.
======================
It does kind of miss the point, but on the other hand it IS the point!
That was great, Kelli. I have enshrined it, and when I went to find
a place to put it, I found there was already some good similar stuff!
http://sandradodd.com/game/benefits
Sandra
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 6, 2006, at 7:53 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
this math course as "doing math." It is less than that - it is fun
for her, so that's fine, but if someone (not an unschooler) was
looking for a math curriculum this would NOT be my recommendation. Or
at least it would be the lowest, poorest part of a math program.
Unschoolers get the best and richest math "program" by living their
lives and letting the math bubble up just like everything else
bubbles up.
Kids don't NEED this - they'll learn what they need to learn. Neither
of my other kids needed or wanted anything like this and they're FINE.
If people are thinking they don't have enough math in their
unschooling lives - the first thing I'd suggest is that you probably
do and just don't recognize it and, second, if you want to "strew"
more stuff that encourages mathematical thinking and learning,
perhaps look at Julie Brennan's website, <LivingMath.net> for ideas
that are going to be far better than a mechanical, formal math program.
The ONLY reason I brought it up was because someone asked and, yes, I
have a daughter who, at 15, is as interested in doing formal math as
she is in going to Disneyland or learning to play guitar or playing
soccer. It isn't any more special to her than those other things,
which are ALL important to her.
Kids who love music will gravitate toward music and, at some point,
might very likely want a more formal way to study - lessons,
teachers, books, plans, whatever. Roxana "just sang" until she got
really serious about musical theater and then she wanted to study
with people who could really help her progress. Rosie could stand in
the living room and copy karate moves while watching Bruce Lee
movies, but she wanted systematic instruction by people who knew how
to help her. She's played guitar for a long time, but just decided to
take some lessons recently.
Kids should pursue what they are interested in pursuing and sometimes
that includes formal methods - but I always hate to talk about a kid
who loves things that sound like formal schooling because people jump
all over it, thinking THAT is good for their kid, too.
I do not consider this math program to be any more important (in
fact, it is LESS important if I'm honest) than Rosie getting on the
phone and putting together a group of kids to go together to
Disneyland today - calling people, making arrangements, talking to
their parents and leaving messages and getting back to people with
new information and all that. THAT is a real-life important skill.
AND it involves important mathematical thinking, too.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> I have aExactly. In fact, I don't think of what Rosie is doing online with
>> daughter that is interested in doing some math too!
>
>
> Let's not lose sight of unschooling, please, in this discussion.
>
> Formal study of a course of mathematical concept and notation
> shouldn't be (by unschoolers) equated with "doing math." It will
> screw up our unschooling thinking if we use school terminology
> without disclaimers or qualifiers.
this math course as "doing math." It is less than that - it is fun
for her, so that's fine, but if someone (not an unschooler) was
looking for a math curriculum this would NOT be my recommendation. Or
at least it would be the lowest, poorest part of a math program.
Unschoolers get the best and richest math "program" by living their
lives and letting the math bubble up just like everything else
bubbles up.
Kids don't NEED this - they'll learn what they need to learn. Neither
of my other kids needed or wanted anything like this and they're FINE.
If people are thinking they don't have enough math in their
unschooling lives - the first thing I'd suggest is that you probably
do and just don't recognize it and, second, if you want to "strew"
more stuff that encourages mathematical thinking and learning,
perhaps look at Julie Brennan's website, <LivingMath.net> for ideas
that are going to be far better than a mechanical, formal math program.
The ONLY reason I brought it up was because someone asked and, yes, I
have a daughter who, at 15, is as interested in doing formal math as
she is in going to Disneyland or learning to play guitar or playing
soccer. It isn't any more special to her than those other things,
which are ALL important to her.
Kids who love music will gravitate toward music and, at some point,
might very likely want a more formal way to study - lessons,
teachers, books, plans, whatever. Roxana "just sang" until she got
really serious about musical theater and then she wanted to study
with people who could really help her progress. Rosie could stand in
the living room and copy karate moves while watching Bruce Lee
movies, but she wanted systematic instruction by people who knew how
to help her. She's played guitar for a long time, but just decided to
take some lessons recently.
Kids should pursue what they are interested in pursuing and sometimes
that includes formal methods - but I always hate to talk about a kid
who loves things that sound like formal schooling because people jump
all over it, thinking THAT is good for their kid, too.
I do not consider this math program to be any more important (in
fact, it is LESS important if I'm honest) than Rosie getting on the
phone and putting together a group of kids to go together to
Disneyland today - calling people, making arrangements, talking to
their parents and leaving messages and getting back to people with
new information and all that. THAT is a real-life important skill.
AND it involves important mathematical thinking, too.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
OH SHEESH!! There's ANOTHER page:
http://sandradodd.com/game/tales
http://sandradodd.com/game/tales
On Feb 6, 2006, at 8:32 AM, Kelli Traaseth wrote:
> ***What exactly do your kids do? Any kids learning Algebra simply
> because they want to? Foreign Language?****
>
> I also wanted to quick comment on this. This will be shorter,
> promise! <g>
>
> As far as Algebra,,,why do people worry about Algebra? I've
> never used my algebra since leaving school. I guess i've figured
> out things I need when I need them,, kind of algebra, figuring out
> X. But my kids do that all the time and they've never been taught
> it. I wouldn't worry about that.
>
> But as for foreign language, my daughter loves languages. She's
> wanted to learn different ones for years and she's only 11. We've
> drawn Chinese characters, Japanese, read Spanish, French,
> Norwegian, and elvish. :D Now, we aren't fluent in any of
> those,, yet. But I know if she wants to, it will happen.
>
> Her language interests also get nurtured within gaming, ah huh!
> In our new game we're playing, WOW, (world of warcraft) there are
> different races with different languages. :D So, she now is trying
> to decypher those different languages that she can't speak. We are
> currently trying to find an ad-on so we can communicate with the
> different races and just last night she went through our alphabet
> to me (on another computer) in a different language to see how the
> whole thing corresponded with English. <g> I never thought of
> doing that.
>
> Kelli~
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://
> www.unschooling.info>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 6, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Deb wrote:
I thought that said VEGETARIAN, even when I was halfway through the
response.
I was a vegetarian for a couple of years, and though I did do a lot
of reading, I didn't have to study FIRST before I quit eating
burgers. <g>
-=-FYI as one who has worked in high tech software companies since
1990, it does NOT take advanced mathematics to understand
programming. It takes orderly thinking (this first, then this) and
creativity (both of which abound in video game players). It's like
creating a recipe almost. My DH learned to design websites (HTML
programming) with just barely a high school diploma (that is, he got
by enough to keep the school off his back but didn't really learn
anything there - he learned by programming on an old TRS-80 era type
computer). -=-
I took an easy programming class years ago, and it didn't seem like
math to me. It seemed like rules to a game. Thinks I learned then
helped me just this morning! <g> But I could have learned those
things without the class, too.
I'm very math-nervous, and my first response is to avoid it, but
luckily for me computer coding doesn't seem so mathish, because (I
think) it's not done with numbers and "formulae." Yes, there are
patterns, and you really have to be careful about characters, but
that doesn't bother me.
-=-> Are your kids motivated enough to teach themselves what they
need to
know to acheive their goals?-=-
-=-Were your kids motivated enough to handle repeated falls to finally
walk across the living room? Were your kids motivated enough to
repeat 'mik, mik, mik' enough times until you 'got it' and gave them
milk...and maybe said 'Here's your milk' and next time it got a
little closer to 'milk' than 'mik' because it got them to their goal
sooner.-=-
The real question in cases such as this are:
Is the mother motivated enough to *learn* what she needs to know to
make unschooling work well for her family?
Our company has helped hundreds or thousands of moms Just Like YOU
unschool successfully. (Oh... I mean this list can be really
helpful. <g>) Here are some good starting places:
http://sandradodd/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
> >One of my children wants to be a veterinarian--won't she=============================
> > have to study some advanced math to acheive that goal?
I thought that said VEGETARIAN, even when I was halfway through the
response.
I was a vegetarian for a couple of years, and though I did do a lot
of reading, I didn't have to study FIRST before I quit eating
burgers. <g>
-=-FYI as one who has worked in high tech software companies since
1990, it does NOT take advanced mathematics to understand
programming. It takes orderly thinking (this first, then this) and
creativity (both of which abound in video game players). It's like
creating a recipe almost. My DH learned to design websites (HTML
programming) with just barely a high school diploma (that is, he got
by enough to keep the school off his back but didn't really learn
anything there - he learned by programming on an old TRS-80 era type
computer). -=-
I took an easy programming class years ago, and it didn't seem like
math to me. It seemed like rules to a game. Thinks I learned then
helped me just this morning! <g> But I could have learned those
things without the class, too.
I'm very math-nervous, and my first response is to avoid it, but
luckily for me computer coding doesn't seem so mathish, because (I
think) it's not done with numbers and "formulae." Yes, there are
patterns, and you really have to be careful about characters, but
that doesn't bother me.
-=-> Are your kids motivated enough to teach themselves what they
need to
know to acheive their goals?-=-
-=-Were your kids motivated enough to handle repeated falls to finally
walk across the living room? Were your kids motivated enough to
repeat 'mik, mik, mik' enough times until you 'got it' and gave them
milk...and maybe said 'Here's your milk' and next time it got a
little closer to 'milk' than 'mik' because it got them to their goal
sooner.-=-
The real question in cases such as this are:
Is the mother motivated enough to *learn* what she needs to know to
make unschooling work well for her family?
Our company has helped hundreds or thousands of moms Just Like YOU
unschool successfully. (Oh... I mean this list can be really
helpful. <g>) Here are some good starting places:
http://sandradodd/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
Deb
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
one DS who is 7 and lately he's varied between wanting to be a
fireman and wanting to be someone who builds things and wanting to
be a superhero. (Personally, I think he'd be a great architect but
then again he would also be a really good programmer and a whole
host of other things too numerous to detail).
quality control but also support and programming in various places)
--Deb
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>Just to clarify - that was the O.P. not me (Deb)--I've just got the
>
> On Feb 6, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Deb wrote:
>
> > >One of my children wants to be a veterinarian--won't she
> > > have to study some advanced math to acheive that goal?
>
one DS who is 7 and lately he's varied between wanting to be a
fireman and wanting to be someone who builds things and wanting to
be a superhero. (Personally, I think he'd be a great architect but
then again he would also be a really good programmer and a whole
host of other things too numerous to detail).
>Now this was me, Deb, I have worked in software since 1990 (mostly
>
> -=-FYI as one who has worked in high tech software companies since
> 1990, ...
quality control but also support and programming in various places)
--Deb
Ren Allen
"***What exactly do your kids do? Any kids learning Algebra simply
because they want to? Foreign Language?*"
I had to laugh as I re-read this. Trevor has an interest in German,
because of an online game he plays.
They both have an interest in Japanese because of their passion for
manga and anime. They're content with it being an interest, I've
offered up a language program if they'd like. I really don't think
language is truly learned in any method other than immersion.
We just need to go stay in Japan for a while.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
because they want to? Foreign Language?*"
I had to laugh as I re-read this. Trevor has an interest in German,
because of an online game he plays.
They both have an interest in Japanese because of their passion for
manga and anime. They're content with it being an interest, I've
offered up a language program if they'd like. I really don't think
language is truly learned in any method other than immersion.
We just need to go stay in Japan for a while.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pamela Sorooshian
>> One of my children wants to be a veterinarian--won't sheSure - so when she's ready to get serious about meeting the
>> have to study some advanced math to acheive that goal?
requirements for doing what SHE wants to do - you can help her figure
out how to do that.
There is a fine line between taking a kids' interests seriously
versus locking them into any interest they've expressed and goading
them into doing things based on having expressed those interests.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heidi klein
ummmm,
Sorry if I said anything wrong...we are unschoolers, we dont use text books,
workbooks or "do school" My daughter asked me the other day if I knew of any
math sites, she said she was interested in "doing" some math thats why I
asked. Just like if someone talked about a great movie but left the name
off, I just wanted to know the site of the math. I didnt think I did
anything wrong with trying to help my daughter. I have looked for math sites
for her and didnt like the ones that I found so when I read about Pams
daughter liking this online math I thought "hey this could be the one" thats
all...
sorry,
heidi
Sorry if I said anything wrong...we are unschoolers, we dont use text books,
workbooks or "do school" My daughter asked me the other day if I knew of any
math sites, she said she was interested in "doing" some math thats why I
asked. Just like if someone talked about a great movie but left the name
off, I just wanted to know the site of the math. I didnt think I did
anything wrong with trying to help my daughter. I have looked for math sites
for her and didnt like the ones that I found so when I read about Pams
daughter liking this online math I thought "hey this could be the one" thats
all...
sorry,
heidi
On 2/6/06, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 6, 2006, at 7:53 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
>
> >> I have a
> >> daughter that is interested in doing some math too!
> >
> >
> > Let's not lose sight of unschooling, please, in this discussion.
> >
> > Formal study of a course of mathematical concept and notation
> > shouldn't be (by unschoolers) equated with "doing math." It will
> > screw up our unschooling thinking if we use school terminology
> > without disclaimers or qualifiers.
>
> Exactly. In fact, I don't think of what Rosie is doing online with
> this math course as "doing math." It is less than that - it is fun
> for her, so that's fine, but if someone (not an unschooler) was
> looking for a math curriculum this would NOT be my recommendation. Or
> at least it would be the lowest, poorest part of a math program.
> Unschoolers get the best and richest math "program" by living their
> lives and letting the math bubble up just like everything else
> bubbles up.
>
> Kids don't NEED this - they'll learn what they need to learn. Neither
> of my other kids needed or wanted anything like this and they're FINE.
>
> If people are thinking they don't have enough math in their
> unschooling lives - the first thing I'd suggest is that you probably
> do and just don't recognize it and, second, if you want to "strew"
> more stuff that encourages mathematical thinking and learning,
> perhaps look at Julie Brennan's website, <LivingMath.net> for ideas
> that are going to be far better than a mechanical, formal math program.
>
> The ONLY reason I brought it up was because someone asked and, yes, I
> have a daughter who, at 15, is as interested in doing formal math as
> she is in going to Disneyland or learning to play guitar or playing
> soccer. It isn't any more special to her than those other things,
> which are ALL important to her.
>
> Kids who love music will gravitate toward music and, at some point,
> might very likely want a more formal way to study - lessons,
> teachers, books, plans, whatever. Roxana "just sang" until she got
> really serious about musical theater and then she wanted to study
> with people who could really help her progress. Rosie could stand in
> the living room and copy karate moves while watching Bruce Lee
> movies, but she wanted systematic instruction by people who knew how
> to help her. She's played guitar for a long time, but just decided to
> take some lessons recently.
>
> Kids should pursue what they are interested in pursuing and sometimes
> that includes formal methods - but I always hate to talk about a kid
> who loves things that sound like formal schooling because people jump
> all over it, thinking THAT is good for their kid, too.
>
> I do not consider this math program to be any more important (in
> fact, it is LESS important if I'm honest) than Rosie getting on the
> phone and putting together a group of kids to go together to
> Disneyland today - calling people, making arrangements, talking to
> their parents and leaving messages and getting back to people with
> new information and all that. THAT is a real-life important skill.
> AND it involves important mathematical thinking, too.
>
> -pam
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <
> http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jenstarc4
> They both have an interest in Japanese because of their passion forMy daughter is really passionate about these things too. Just
> manga and anime. >
>
> Ren
> learninginfreedom.com
curious, do your kids like Inuyasha? Inuyasha has sparked an
interest in learning how to draw anime. I've put some books on hold
at the library that are specifically about how to draw anime.
Does anyone else have suggestions for resources to use for this.
Currently she is downloading and printing out pictures, then she
uses tracing paper to trace them. I thought that was a great way to
start.
Anyhow, it is all about anime here at our house, especially
Inuyasha, and anything Miyazaki.
Jenny
Ren Allen
" Just
curious, do your kids like Inuyasha? "
YES! I got discouraged when they kept starting the series over on
Adult Swim and stopped watching regularly....so I'm all goofed up now.
You all might enjoy the newer series Avatar (not anime, but really
great).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
curious, do your kids like Inuyasha? "
YES! I got discouraged when they kept starting the series over on
Adult Swim and stopped watching regularly....so I'm all goofed up now.
You all might enjoy the newer series Avatar (not anime, but really
great).
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 6, 2006, at 8:01 PM, jenstarc4 wrote:
Hedgehog, she's looked through a lot of Japanese stuff too. A few
years back, last time I talked to her, she was doing the original in
ink and then scanning and using a computer paint program to color
sometimes, or doing the character in color on paper and then setting
it in a computer-generated background. There's an example on one of
my pages and might still link to her stuff.
We got some postcards with art she did for Christmas, and a magnet.
I guess they're from a online place that puts your artwork on things.
http://sandradodd.com/videogames
halfway down the page, Gina Trujillo.
Sandra
> Does anyone else have suggestions for resources to use for this.My niece does art and though her initial interest was Sonic the
> Currently she is downloading and printing out pictures, then she
> uses tracing paper to trace them. I thought that was a great way to
> start.
Hedgehog, she's looked through a lot of Japanese stuff too. A few
years back, last time I talked to her, she was doing the original in
ink and then scanning and using a computer paint program to color
sometimes, or doing the character in color on paper and then setting
it in a computer-generated background. There's an example on one of
my pages and might still link to her stuff.
We got some postcards with art she did for Christmas, and a magnet.
I guess they're from a online place that puts your artwork on things.
http://sandradodd.com/videogames
halfway down the page, Gina Trujillo.
Sandra
jenstarc4
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@...> wrote:
been wanting to write out a walk through for a game that she's been
playing.
Are there any rules for walk throughs? I thought this would be a
great idea for her to do, since we had a hard time finding walk
throughs for this particular game, and the ones we found were
incomplete and lacking the specific info that she was looking for.
Anyone out there have experience helping their child write up a walk
through?
<Sandra@...> wrote:
>I checked out your link and it just reminded me that my dd has also
>
>>
> http://sandradodd.com/videogames
> halfway down the page, Gina Trujillo.
>
>
> Sandra
>
been wanting to write out a walk through for a game that she's been
playing.
Are there any rules for walk throughs? I thought this would be a
great idea for her to do, since we had a hard time finding walk
throughs for this particular game, and the ones we found were
incomplete and lacking the specific info that she was looking for.
Anyone out there have experience helping their child write up a walk
through?
Sandra Dodd
On Feb 7, 2006, at 12:57 PM, jenstarc4 wrote:
<g>
I think there are principles. <g>
Admit when you're not sure, tell why you know or think something if
it seems important (cite player's guide maybe, I mean).
Be clear, don't just say "get that coin" if there's more than one.
-=-Anyone out there have experience helping their child write up a walk
through?-=-
I have experience helping them read them, years back, and much
experience hearing them be thrilled when the walkthrough was great or
cranky if it got them lost or stuck.
For those wondering what the heck a "walkthrough" is, it's a textual
guide to playing a video game, or at least a part of a game—a
narrative that another gamer can follow.
Sandra
> Are there any rules for walk throughs?Where would the governing body be who would have made this rule!?
<g>
I think there are principles. <g>
Admit when you're not sure, tell why you know or think something if
it seems important (cite player's guide maybe, I mean).
Be clear, don't just say "get that coin" if there's more than one.
-=-Anyone out there have experience helping their child write up a walk
through?-=-
I have experience helping them read them, years back, and much
experience hearing them be thrilled when the walkthrough was great or
cranky if it got them lost or stuck.
For those wondering what the heck a "walkthrough" is, it's a textual
guide to playing a video game, or at least a part of a game—a
narrative that another gamer can follow.
Sandra