My son doesn't want to go with us
cookwoodpress
I really need some help. There are five of us in the family, dd8, ds7,
and dd4 and lately every time we want to go on an excursion, all of us
want to go except ds. I'm not sure what to do about it. We wanted to
go to the science museum tomorrow for a special exhibit, and when we
brought it up he said "I'm not going." We wanted to go for a walk
today, and he didn't want to go out. Last week we went to a play, he
didn't want to go. Last night he didn't want to go to dinner at a
friend's house. He just doesn't like to go out to do things. The
problem is that the rest of us do like to go to do things.
We tried to figure out what is the real problem... it seems like he's
not into the driving, but that's not the only thing. But mostly, he
yells, screams and says "you can't make me" and starts throwing things
and making angry faces. If you heard it from the street you'd think,
boy they must always be dragging him around, but actually that's not
the case. In many situations, we split up and either dh or I stay
home. I know he's just not the kind of person who likes to go out a
lot. So mostly we don't make him. We don't sign him up for things, we
don't make him go to things, we respect his need to be alone and/or at
home. We've even experimented with leaving him alone for short periods
of time. But what do we do when all four of us want to go and he
doesn't and he can't stay home alone?
I don't think it's about the particular destination. It's not like
we're making him go grocery shopping or something he really hates. We
don't make him do that. And when we've made him go to something in the
past, he always says he's glad to have gone. We can't let him stay
home alone yet. And there's only one friend's house he'd like to go to
and honestly, I just don't feel right asking them each time we want to
go somewhere if they can take him.
And I admit it hurts my feelings that he doesn't want to come with us.
It makes me feel terrible. I wish he wanted to come.
I don't know what to do. I'd appreciate any advice you all have.
thanks,
Liz
and dd4 and lately every time we want to go on an excursion, all of us
want to go except ds. I'm not sure what to do about it. We wanted to
go to the science museum tomorrow for a special exhibit, and when we
brought it up he said "I'm not going." We wanted to go for a walk
today, and he didn't want to go out. Last week we went to a play, he
didn't want to go. Last night he didn't want to go to dinner at a
friend's house. He just doesn't like to go out to do things. The
problem is that the rest of us do like to go to do things.
We tried to figure out what is the real problem... it seems like he's
not into the driving, but that's not the only thing. But mostly, he
yells, screams and says "you can't make me" and starts throwing things
and making angry faces. If you heard it from the street you'd think,
boy they must always be dragging him around, but actually that's not
the case. In many situations, we split up and either dh or I stay
home. I know he's just not the kind of person who likes to go out a
lot. So mostly we don't make him. We don't sign him up for things, we
don't make him go to things, we respect his need to be alone and/or at
home. We've even experimented with leaving him alone for short periods
of time. But what do we do when all four of us want to go and he
doesn't and he can't stay home alone?
I don't think it's about the particular destination. It's not like
we're making him go grocery shopping or something he really hates. We
don't make him do that. And when we've made him go to something in the
past, he always says he's glad to have gone. We can't let him stay
home alone yet. And there's only one friend's house he'd like to go to
and honestly, I just don't feel right asking them each time we want to
go somewhere if they can take him.
And I admit it hurts my feelings that he doesn't want to come with us.
It makes me feel terrible. I wish he wanted to come.
I don't know what to do. I'd appreciate any advice you all have.
thanks,
Liz
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 22, 2006, at 1:29 PM, cookwoodpress wrote:
You bribe him or you pay a babysitter.
-=-I just don't feel right asking them each time we want to
go somewhere if they can take him.
-=-
Discuss it with her as you did with us. Offer cash. Or offer a
longterm kind of trade, like for every few times they keep yours,
you'll keep theirs for a long entertaining overnighter.
Sandra
> But what do we do when all four of us want to go and he========================================
> doesn't and he can't stay home alone?
You bribe him or you pay a babysitter.
-=-I just don't feel right asking them each time we want to
go somewhere if they can take him.
-=-
Discuss it with her as you did with us. Offer cash. Or offer a
longterm kind of trade, like for every few times they keep yours,
you'll keep theirs for a long entertaining overnighter.
Sandra
Deb Lewis
***I don't know what to do. I'd appreciate any advice you all have.***
Are those times when one of you is out with the other kids the only times
he has one on one time with a parent, alone?
Could he be needing personal, close time with you or his dad, alone? If
you can give him special attention/time during the day, just him, maybe
that will help.
Deb L
Are those times when one of you is out with the other kids the only times
he has one on one time with a parent, alone?
Could he be needing personal, close time with you or his dad, alone? If
you can give him special attention/time during the day, just him, maybe
that will help.
Deb L
cookwoodpress
--- In [email protected], Deb Lewis
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
Dad to play legos or computer with him. And I'd do stuff with him if
he asked me but he rarely does. I offer to play games and read and
stuff, but mostly he wants to either play the computer or play legos,
and doesn't think of me to do either.
It feels to me more of a control thing. That he hates being forced to
do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
doesn't want to do it. But that's not the only part. He really doesn't
like to go out and do stuff as much as others might.
Thanks for your thoughts. (And also for your lists, I love them! We
had a Deb Lewis-inspired bonfire in an igloo the other day. Thanks!)
Liz
<ddzimlew@j...> wrote:
>times
> ***I don't know what to do. I'd appreciate any advice you all have.***
>
> Are those times when one of you is out with the other kids the only
> he has one on one time with a parent, alone?If
>
> Could he be needing personal, close time with you or his dad, alone?
> you can give him special attention/time during the day, just him, maybeNot really. There are lots of times during the day where he asks his
> that will help.
Dad to play legos or computer with him. And I'd do stuff with him if
he asked me but he rarely does. I offer to play games and read and
stuff, but mostly he wants to either play the computer or play legos,
and doesn't think of me to do either.
It feels to me more of a control thing. That he hates being forced to
do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
doesn't want to do it. But that's not the only part. He really doesn't
like to go out and do stuff as much as others might.
Thanks for your thoughts. (And also for your lists, I love them! We
had a Deb Lewis-inspired bonfire in an igloo the other day. Thanks!)
Liz
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 22, 2006, at 3:23 PM, cookwoodpress wrote:
like he's forced to do it and so that makes him even MORE likely to
strongly resist and to get angry when he feels pushed about it, right?
I know a family (maybe still on this list) whose older girls really
wanted to go go go and younger brother really did not. They honored
his desire to stay home by holding a LOT more activities at their own
house and by finding rides with friends for the girls so that mom
could stay home more with the younger brother.
I'd be careful about making him feel he has to fight to live his life
in a way that suits him. Instead, make it an automatic part of life
that you honor his interests.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>And, since he really doesn't like to go out that much, then he feels
> It feels to me more of a control thing. That he hates being forced to
> do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
> doesn't want to do it. But that's not the only part. He really doesn't
> like to go out and do stuff as much as others might.
like he's forced to do it and so that makes him even MORE likely to
strongly resist and to get angry when he feels pushed about it, right?
I know a family (maybe still on this list) whose older girls really
wanted to go go go and younger brother really did not. They honored
his desire to stay home by holding a LOT more activities at their own
house and by finding rides with friends for the girls so that mom
could stay home more with the younger brother.
I'd be careful about making him feel he has to fight to live his life
in a way that suits him. Instead, make it an automatic part of life
that you honor his interests.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 22, 2006, at 4:23 PM, cookwoodpress wrote:
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Let him have his way so much that he's willing to let other people
have their way.
If it feels at ALL like a control thing, he needs more control, not
less.
Don't take it personally. It sounds as though you're expressing your
own hurt feelings about him not wanting to do things with you.
He will be generous with you later on, if you're generous with him
now. If you try for 50/50 now (what seems to you like 50/50) you'll
end up with little to nothing later, I'm thinking, going by the good
and the bad relationships I've seen.
Robyn Coburn wrote this, and it's here (with other good things):
http://sandradodd.com/chore/option
Q:We do alot of things together as a family because it's just what we
do...we don't offer them the choice to not participate with family/
household responsibilites - it's not really questioned, it's just
what we do.
By relinquishing the desire to control, you help your child onto the
path of living mindfully themselves, making choices and decisions
mindfully and deliberately, instead of reactively.
How would you react if the lack of choice *were* to be questioned one
day? Would your subsequent actions be likely to enhance or detract
from your relationship with your children?
You are assuming that given the choice the children would never
choose to help. The lists are full of stories of children
spontaneously helping, doing unasked cleaning or tidying as gifts for
their parents, doing *more* than the children with externally
directed chores ever offer or do.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It feels to me more of a control thing. That he hates being forced tohttp://sandradodd.com/respect
> do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
> doesn't want to do it
http://sandradodd.com/choice
Let him have his way so much that he's willing to let other people
have their way.
If it feels at ALL like a control thing, he needs more control, not
less.
Don't take it personally. It sounds as though you're expressing your
own hurt feelings about him not wanting to do things with you.
He will be generous with you later on, if you're generous with him
now. If you try for 50/50 now (what seems to you like 50/50) you'll
end up with little to nothing later, I'm thinking, going by the good
and the bad relationships I've seen.
Robyn Coburn wrote this, and it's here (with other good things):
http://sandradodd.com/chore/option
Q:We do alot of things together as a family because it's just what we
do...we don't offer them the choice to not participate with family/
household responsibilites - it's not really questioned, it's just
what we do.
By relinquishing the desire to control, you help your child onto the
path of living mindfully themselves, making choices and decisions
mindfully and deliberately, instead of reactively.
How would you react if the lack of choice *were* to be questioned one
day? Would your subsequent actions be likely to enhance or detract
from your relationship with your children?
You are assuming that given the choice the children would never
choose to help. The lists are full of stories of children
spontaneously helping, doing unasked cleaning or tidying as gifts for
their parents, doing *more* than the children with externally
directed chores ever offer or do.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cookwoodpress
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
live his life the way he wants, but it's also true that he doesn't
live alone. There are five of us. We have made a big effort,
especially in the last year or so where it has gotten more clear that
he wants to be home, to really try and accomodate his wanting to stay
home. Dh and I do split up often, we have been experimenting with him
staying home alone for short stretches of time, we try to keep the
dragging along to other people's stuff to a bare minimum. But his
desire to stay home directly bumps up against other people's desire to
go out. If one of us has to stay home with him, that means we don't
get to do what we wanted to do (and the other kids don't get our
company).
Or if there's only one parent available, it can mean that he's
controlling whether dd8 gets to go to her activities or not. That
doesn't seem right to me.
Liz
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
> I'd be careful about making him feel he has to fight to live his lifeI've been thinking about this. I don't want him to have to fight to
> in a way that suits him. Instead, make it an automatic part of life
> that you honor his interests.
>
live his life the way he wants, but it's also true that he doesn't
live alone. There are five of us. We have made a big effort,
especially in the last year or so where it has gotten more clear that
he wants to be home, to really try and accomodate his wanting to stay
home. Dh and I do split up often, we have been experimenting with him
staying home alone for short stretches of time, we try to keep the
dragging along to other people's stuff to a bare minimum. But his
desire to stay home directly bumps up against other people's desire to
go out. If one of us has to stay home with him, that means we don't
get to do what we wanted to do (and the other kids don't get our
company).
Or if there's only one parent available, it can mean that he's
controlling whether dd8 gets to go to her activities or not. That
doesn't seem right to me.
Liz
cookwoodpress
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@S...> wrote:
situation sometimes means they don't get any control. It doesn't seem
fair. They've already conditioned themselves to go along, to some
extent, with what he wants because he's very forceful and demanding.
It's easier for them to go along. That doesn't seem right to me either.
And I wish, I wish we could talk about stuff, but in the moment, it's
almost impossible to talk to him. While I'm trying to figure out if
there's a way to make it more palatable, or trying to figure out if
there's a part that he doesn't like in particular that we could get
rid of, he's yelling "I'm not going. Shut up!" Sometimes I try "you
don't have to go (for real), but could you tell me why you don't want
to go". I still get "shut up" or nothing.
After the moment, he doesn't bring it up. He goes on about his life as
if nothing happened.
If I try to talk about it, we either go right back to the "shut up"
parts, or he'll say "I'm really sorry about what happened", which is
certainly less abrasive, but mostly feels to me like a gentler version
of "I don't want to talk about this". I don't need or want him to say
he's sorry, I just want to know more about the situation and what
bugged him about it. Is it just going out of the house? Is it going to
that particular place? Is it driving there? Is there any way to make
any of the icky parts better so that the rest of us could go?
It also feels sometimes like he speaks a different language. Says
things that he knows aren't true, almost daring me to get into an
argument about those things. ("The car is too cold." "I could put on
the heat." "No, the heat doesn't work." (except it does)) Where it
gets to arguing about a provable fact, I don't say anymore. It feels
like more control stuff.
but right now it feels about 95/5, if that. I can't think of anything
we make him do except go places sometimes (once last week, I think).
Well, we don't let him yell mean stuff at his sisters or hit them or
throw stuff at them. But that's about it. We don't make him do chores,
we don't make him do schooly stuff, we don't make him eat stuff he
doesn't want to, we mostly don't make him go out if he doesn't want
to, we do let him play on the computer and play legos as much as he
wants. We play games with him and read to him when he asks. What else
could he control that we're not letting him?
When is it enough? I feel like he has everything he wants, except for
having to go in the car sometimes (but not all the times) when he
doesn't want to, and that's still not enough. And it doesn't seem fair
to his sisters or to dh and me. It feels like he's taking advantage. I
feel controlled.
Liz
<Sandra@S...> wrote:
>But what about the other kids in the family? His controlling the
> Let him have his way so much that he's willing to let other people
> have their way.
situation sometimes means they don't get any control. It doesn't seem
fair. They've already conditioned themselves to go along, to some
extent, with what he wants because he's very forceful and demanding.
It's easier for them to go along. That doesn't seem right to me either.
And I wish, I wish we could talk about stuff, but in the moment, it's
almost impossible to talk to him. While I'm trying to figure out if
there's a way to make it more palatable, or trying to figure out if
there's a part that he doesn't like in particular that we could get
rid of, he's yelling "I'm not going. Shut up!" Sometimes I try "you
don't have to go (for real), but could you tell me why you don't want
to go". I still get "shut up" or nothing.
After the moment, he doesn't bring it up. He goes on about his life as
if nothing happened.
If I try to talk about it, we either go right back to the "shut up"
parts, or he'll say "I'm really sorry about what happened", which is
certainly less abrasive, but mostly feels to me like a gentler version
of "I don't want to talk about this". I don't need or want him to say
he's sorry, I just want to know more about the situation and what
bugged him about it. Is it just going out of the house? Is it going to
that particular place? Is it driving there? Is there any way to make
any of the icky parts better so that the rest of us could go?
It also feels sometimes like he speaks a different language. Says
things that he knows aren't true, almost daring me to get into an
argument about those things. ("The car is too cold." "I could put on
the heat." "No, the heat doesn't work." (except it does)) Where it
gets to arguing about a provable fact, I don't say anymore. It feels
like more control stuff.
>It does make me feel bad.
> Don't take it personally. It sounds as though you're expressing your
> own hurt feelings about him not wanting to do things with you.
>I think this is an interesting point and want to think about it more,
> He will be generous with you later on, if you're generous with him
> now. If you try for 50/50 now (what seems to you like 50/50) you'll
> end up with little to nothing later, I'm thinking, going by the good
> and the bad relationships I've seen.
but right now it feels about 95/5, if that. I can't think of anything
we make him do except go places sometimes (once last week, I think).
Well, we don't let him yell mean stuff at his sisters or hit them or
throw stuff at them. But that's about it. We don't make him do chores,
we don't make him do schooly stuff, we don't make him eat stuff he
doesn't want to, we mostly don't make him go out if he doesn't want
to, we do let him play on the computer and play legos as much as he
wants. We play games with him and read to him when he asks. What else
could he control that we're not letting him?
When is it enough? I feel like he has everything he wants, except for
having to go in the car sometimes (but not all the times) when he
doesn't want to, and that's still not enough. And it doesn't seem fair
to his sisters or to dh and me. It feels like he's taking advantage. I
feel controlled.
Liz
the bartels
>I know a family (maybe still on this list) whose older girls reallyi just wanted to chime in a bit here. when my son was younger, he was
>wanted to go go go and younger brother really did not. They honored
>his desire to stay home by holding a LOT more activities at their own
>house and by finding rides with friends for the girls so that mom
>could stay home more with the younger brother.
>
>
much more open to having new and different people in our home than he is
now. as much as he is resistant to *going & doing*, he prefers that to
having his home invaded and his things touched by others. adults are
less of a threat to him since he can go off into his own space until
he's ready to interact AND they tend to be less interested in his
belongings. ;)
that having been said, by honoring him most of the time and trying to
find new ways of going about satisfying the rest of our social needs, i
find that he is much more willing to go along with us and trust that it
will be a good time. and when it isn't, we don't feel obligated to
stick with the experience...we just go home!
i also thought it would be a nice idea for my eldest daughter (almost 8)
to be able to go off to friends' homes and play without the rest of us,
but she's been uncomfortable with that idea as well. she prefers to
have the security of me or her father there in case things stop being
fun and she's too embarrassed to ask to call home. so i need to honor
that as well. i'm sure you can imagine the difficulty in honoring the
needs/wants of all the different individuals in our home...it is
definitely a balancing act, to say the least. :)
i'm sure as the kids grow and expand more these issues will be a lot
easier to move around, but right now it is a rough thing to work
through. we are all doing the important work of stretching and growing
and learning how to be generous and compassionate (among other things)
with one another. it's not easy, but it's important.
>I'd be careful about making him feel he has to fight to live his lifeamen! :) and when you do, i think you'll find that open-mindedness and
>in a way that suits him. Instead, make it an automatic part of life
>that you honor his interests.
>
flexibility beget open-mindedness and flexibility. :)
i see expanding my son's world as as much of my responsibility as
honoring his desire to stay home and just *be*. of course, it needs to
happen in ways that i think will be enjoyable for him (based on many
previous experiences), and i myself need to remain open to the fact that
he still may not have a good time and be willing to cut things short,
but i recognize that my son tends (much like myself) to feel stuck and
not know what to do to relieve that feeling. some people do need a
gentle, loving push to get things shaken up a bit...i don't know if that
fits for the OP, but it does in our life. :)
-lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<Not really. There are lots of times during the day where he asks his
Dad to play legos or computer with him. And I'd do stuff with him if
he asked me but he rarely does. I offer to play games and read and
stuff, but mostly he wants to either play the computer or play legos,
and doesn't think of me to do either.It feels to me more of a control thing.
That he hates being forced to
do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
doesn't want to do it. But that's not the only part. He really doesn't
like to go out and do stuff as much as others might.>>>>
************************************************************************
This keeps hanging in my mind.... I have four children ages 14 to 22 months.
I think you said your little boy is 4. At age 4 and the youngest (or 2nd to
youngest) brings on new growth and independence. At 3-4 they see the older
siblings going and doing and they come to realize they too want some of that
control also. A stage or passage onto the next gear in their growth.
In smaller families those changes may not be as vocal. In larger families a
toddler will seek to be their own person and if it takes getting vocal about
it so be it until it's clear as mud.
Computer and Lego's can be his way of shutting everyone out/his own thing he
controls.
He's four (still a little guy) and at times it can be difficult to balance
everyone. He will come round in time but he needs to finish his quest to be
heard, understood and his own person. Until then I would consider talking to the
older ones and explaining his feelings. Maybe the older ones can help him
make cookies or shop for Lego's or something that he may ask for or do. The
idea is to get there before he gets upset or feels out of control. If he reaches
that frustration level too many times it will be a much longer span of time
until he feels better about his options.
With the age differences things can turn into "me and them" ..that can be a
challenge to overcome those feelings.
Laura
Southern Maine Unschoolers
Site:http://www.southernmaineunschoolers.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dad to play legos or computer with him. And I'd do stuff with him if
he asked me but he rarely does. I offer to play games and read and
stuff, but mostly he wants to either play the computer or play legos,
and doesn't think of me to do either.It feels to me more of a control thing.
That he hates being forced to
do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
doesn't want to do it. But that's not the only part. He really doesn't
like to go out and do stuff as much as others might.>>>>
************************************************************************
This keeps hanging in my mind.... I have four children ages 14 to 22 months.
I think you said your little boy is 4. At age 4 and the youngest (or 2nd to
youngest) brings on new growth and independence. At 3-4 they see the older
siblings going and doing and they come to realize they too want some of that
control also. A stage or passage onto the next gear in their growth.
In smaller families those changes may not be as vocal. In larger families a
toddler will seek to be their own person and if it takes getting vocal about
it so be it until it's clear as mud.
Computer and Lego's can be his way of shutting everyone out/his own thing he
controls.
He's four (still a little guy) and at times it can be difficult to balance
everyone. He will come round in time but he needs to finish his quest to be
heard, understood and his own person. Until then I would consider talking to the
older ones and explaining his feelings. Maybe the older ones can help him
make cookies or shop for Lego's or something that he may ask for or do. The
idea is to get there before he gets upset or feels out of control. If he reaches
that frustration level too many times it will be a much longer span of time
until he feels better about his options.
With the age differences things can turn into "me and them" ..that can be a
challenge to overcome those feelings.
Laura
Southern Maine Unschoolers
Site:http://www.southernmaineunschoolers.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 7:50 AM, cookwoodpress wrote:
I'm not talking about control, but you are.
-=-It feels like he's taking advantage. I
feel controlled.
-=-
Try to find a way that you don't see it as a win/lose, control/
controlled situation.
It might just make you angry to hear that, as though I'm not reading
what you've written. I am. But as you've cast it all in terms of
control, I have to think you're not seeing that the concept of
control is limiting your thinking about it.
He won't be the age he is forever. People say that and it's simply
true, BUT... if his needs aren't met he WILL stay in that same state
of neediness. So you could extend his "problem" (what you're seeing
as a family-debilitating problem) by not dealing with it where it is,
when it is. And by "dealing with it" I don't mean to try to change it.
If there was something absolutely clearly physically wrong with your
son so that he couldn't go (think extreme... he's on machinery, or in
a full body cast or something) you would make arrangements.
If you find a babysitting situation and give him a choice of that or
going with you, he might want to go with you instead.
If you just go without making a big deal and then tell good stories
about it, he might be more tempted to go the next time. If you're
being negative before you leave he'll be less likely to want to go
with you. If you're negative when you get back (with messages like
"You should've gone" and "I wish you'd been there" and "You really
missed something" he will feel criticized on both ends of the
outing. If you can manage to be sweet and positive before and sweet
after, you'll be a more inviting possibility for him.
Maybe you're just talking about it all too much. Maybe he doesn't
KNOW why he doesn't want to go, and so it's not that he doesn't want
to tell you, it's that he just doesn't KNOW why. That's okay. Let
him not know. Don't press him to explain it.
It seems maybe your fantasy view of the whole family doing something
together is being wounded, and you're taking it personally.
Yesterday Keith invited all of us to go out to a Chinese buffet.
Holly didn't want to go, and so I said I would stay with her. Kirby
didn't want to go. I tried to press him to go and then thought
better of it so gave him the counter arguments that made it a fair
decision again. Keith and Marty went and had a good time. I could
have case the whole thing in a negative light and pressed Kirby and
Holly to go, but that would not have added to the positive tone of
the afternoon. As it was, it cost only 2/5 of what it would have
cost, and everyone who did go ate and had fun.
If it's movies you're talking about, rend more DVDs. If it's food,
bring fancy take-out.
If your husband goes out with the other kids, find the GOOD parts of
that, and be sweet when you stay home, instead of martyrly. Live
through this stage of your lives gracefully and generously.
-=-And it doesn't seem fair to his sisters or to dh and me.-=-
"Fair" isn't a good measure.
Happy is better.
Everyone can be happy at once if you focus on how to be happy.
Everyone can be UNhappy if you shine the spotlight on your frustration.
Sandra
> > Let him have his way so much that he's willing to let other peopleContol, control, control.
> > have their way.
>
> But what about the other kids in the family? His controlling the
> situation sometimes means they don't get any control.
I'm not talking about control, but you are.
-=-It feels like he's taking advantage. I
feel controlled.
-=-
Try to find a way that you don't see it as a win/lose, control/
controlled situation.
It might just make you angry to hear that, as though I'm not reading
what you've written. I am. But as you've cast it all in terms of
control, I have to think you're not seeing that the concept of
control is limiting your thinking about it.
He won't be the age he is forever. People say that and it's simply
true, BUT... if his needs aren't met he WILL stay in that same state
of neediness. So you could extend his "problem" (what you're seeing
as a family-debilitating problem) by not dealing with it where it is,
when it is. And by "dealing with it" I don't mean to try to change it.
If there was something absolutely clearly physically wrong with your
son so that he couldn't go (think extreme... he's on machinery, or in
a full body cast or something) you would make arrangements.
If you find a babysitting situation and give him a choice of that or
going with you, he might want to go with you instead.
If you just go without making a big deal and then tell good stories
about it, he might be more tempted to go the next time. If you're
being negative before you leave he'll be less likely to want to go
with you. If you're negative when you get back (with messages like
"You should've gone" and "I wish you'd been there" and "You really
missed something" he will feel criticized on both ends of the
outing. If you can manage to be sweet and positive before and sweet
after, you'll be a more inviting possibility for him.
Maybe you're just talking about it all too much. Maybe he doesn't
KNOW why he doesn't want to go, and so it's not that he doesn't want
to tell you, it's that he just doesn't KNOW why. That's okay. Let
him not know. Don't press him to explain it.
It seems maybe your fantasy view of the whole family doing something
together is being wounded, and you're taking it personally.
Yesterday Keith invited all of us to go out to a Chinese buffet.
Holly didn't want to go, and so I said I would stay with her. Kirby
didn't want to go. I tried to press him to go and then thought
better of it so gave him the counter arguments that made it a fair
decision again. Keith and Marty went and had a good time. I could
have case the whole thing in a negative light and pressed Kirby and
Holly to go, but that would not have added to the positive tone of
the afternoon. As it was, it cost only 2/5 of what it would have
cost, and everyone who did go ate and had fun.
If it's movies you're talking about, rend more DVDs. If it's food,
bring fancy take-out.
If your husband goes out with the other kids, find the GOOD parts of
that, and be sweet when you stay home, instead of martyrly. Live
through this stage of your lives gracefully and generously.
-=-And it doesn't seem fair to his sisters or to dh and me.-=-
"Fair" isn't a good measure.
Happy is better.
Everyone can be happy at once if you focus on how to be happy.
Everyone can be UNhappy if you shine the spotlight on your frustration.
Sandra
wifetovegman2002
--- In [email protected], "cookwoodpress"
<lcastro@c...> wrote:
My son Andrew has always been like this, but became more-so at about
age 7, due to anxiety and stress from going into unknown/unfamiliar
places, places he hadn't been before or that were loud and confusing
or might be crowded, etc. New experiences would bring on stomach
pains, tantrums, crying, meltdowns.
At first we didn't understand why these things were a problem for him,
and we weren't unschooling at the time, so I am ashamed to say we
tried bribing, forcing, cajoling, teasing, punishing, and nothing
worked. We thought him as being difficult, stubborn, naughty, ugh!
Thank goodness (but not soon enough) we learned about unschooling and
mindful parenting, and gave him complete and total control over when
and where and how long he goes out and about. And it wasn't until
then, and he matured a bit more, that he was able to explain why those
things were so hard for him.
The more we talked to him, the more we realized that for this kid, he
didn't have the ability to take past experiences and project what a
new experience might be like, or even apply it to a similar but
slightly different experience. It was like he was always walking
through a fog bank, with no bearings and no idea what was in front of him.
We told him he didn't have to do anything he wasn't comfortable doing,
and we would invite him to go but never make it mandatory. Often I
would stay home with him because I missed my boy so much.
I would bet it was about a year after we gave him control over that
area of his life before he started saying, "I think I would like to go
to the hobby shop" or "Can I go to the grocery store with you?" And I
would honor that and take him, and bring him right back home again, no
extra errands thrown in. Once he was comfortable with that, it
expanded some more to maybe two or three stops. And then going to
friends' houses.
This past weekend he went to a huge Halo2 party, and a friend spent
the night before at our house. All big changes from the way it was,
because he was allowed to make those decisions himself.
~Susan in VA
wifetovegman
<lcastro@c...> wrote:
>Liz,
> It feels to me more of a control thing. That he hates being forced to
> do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
> doesn't want to do it. But that's not the only part. He really doesn't
> like to go out and do stuff as much as others might.
My son Andrew has always been like this, but became more-so at about
age 7, due to anxiety and stress from going into unknown/unfamiliar
places, places he hadn't been before or that were loud and confusing
or might be crowded, etc. New experiences would bring on stomach
pains, tantrums, crying, meltdowns.
At first we didn't understand why these things were a problem for him,
and we weren't unschooling at the time, so I am ashamed to say we
tried bribing, forcing, cajoling, teasing, punishing, and nothing
worked. We thought him as being difficult, stubborn, naughty, ugh!
Thank goodness (but not soon enough) we learned about unschooling and
mindful parenting, and gave him complete and total control over when
and where and how long he goes out and about. And it wasn't until
then, and he matured a bit more, that he was able to explain why those
things were so hard for him.
The more we talked to him, the more we realized that for this kid, he
didn't have the ability to take past experiences and project what a
new experience might be like, or even apply it to a similar but
slightly different experience. It was like he was always walking
through a fog bank, with no bearings and no idea what was in front of him.
We told him he didn't have to do anything he wasn't comfortable doing,
and we would invite him to go but never make it mandatory. Often I
would stay home with him because I missed my boy so much.
I would bet it was about a year after we gave him control over that
area of his life before he started saying, "I think I would like to go
to the hobby shop" or "Can I go to the grocery store with you?" And I
would honor that and take him, and bring him right back home again, no
extra errands thrown in. Once he was comfortable with that, it
expanded some more to maybe two or three stops. And then going to
friends' houses.
This past weekend he went to a huge Halo2 party, and a friend spent
the night before at our house. All big changes from the way it was,
because he was allowed to make those decisions himself.
~Susan in VA
wifetovegman
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 7:50 AM, cookwoodpress wrote:
nothing, but it might be the thing that will change your point of view.
The paragraph above is about you and your husband.
We don't
we don't
we don't
we mostly don't
we do
we play
we, we, we...
And it closes up with "What else could he control...?
You don't really see your son as controlling anything, but it does
seem like maybe you see yourselves as trying to control and him not
cooperating with all the things that YOU are and aren't doing.
You didn't even say "he plays games and plays lego," you said "We let
him play."
So control is big in your families though you're trying to get away
from it. It's still in your voice and your thoughts, though. The
words of control are still being used.
As an analogy, if it were the 70's and your social focus was women's
rights and your husband claimed to be all in favor of women's rights,
but he said "I let my wife wear what she wants, I let her get a job,
I help her with her housework, and she's as free a girl as could be,"
would it be "just semantics" for someone to point out that he was
still calling you a girl instead of a woman, and still seeing
everything you did as something HE LET you do?
In a context like that, the job and wardrobe and housework are not as
important as the attitude and beliefs that show through the words.
Sandra
> We don't make him do chores,This is not just semantics. This will probably seem like a fluff of
> we don't make him do schooly stuff, we don't make him eat stuff he
> doesn't want to, we mostly don't make him go out if he doesn't want
> to, we do let him play on the computer and play legos as much as he
> wants. We play games with him and read to him when he asks. What else
> could he control that we're not letting him?
nothing, but it might be the thing that will change your point of view.
The paragraph above is about you and your husband.
We don't
we don't
we don't
we mostly don't
we do
we play
we, we, we...
And it closes up with "What else could he control...?
You don't really see your son as controlling anything, but it does
seem like maybe you see yourselves as trying to control and him not
cooperating with all the things that YOU are and aren't doing.
You didn't even say "he plays games and plays lego," you said "We let
him play."
So control is big in your families though you're trying to get away
from it. It's still in your voice and your thoughts, though. The
words of control are still being used.
As an analogy, if it were the 70's and your social focus was women's
rights and your husband claimed to be all in favor of women's rights,
but he said "I let my wife wear what she wants, I let her get a job,
I help her with her housework, and she's as free a girl as could be,"
would it be "just semantics" for someone to point out that he was
still calling you a girl instead of a woman, and still seeing
everything you did as something HE LET you do?
In a context like that, the job and wardrobe and housework are not as
important as the attitude and beliefs that show through the words.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 7:50 AM, cookwoodpress wrote:
nothing, but it might be the thing that will change your point of view.
The paragraph above is about you and your husband.
We don't
we don't
we don't
we mostly don't
we do
we play
we, we, we...
And it closes up with "What else could he control...?
You don't really see your son as controlling anything, but it does
seem like maybe you see yourselves as trying to control and him not
cooperating with all the things that YOU are and aren't doing.
You didn't even say "he plays games and plays lego," you said "We let
him play."
So control is big in your families though you're trying to get away
from it. It's still in your voice and your thoughts, though. The
words of control are still being used.
As an analogy, if it were the 70's and your social focus was women's
rights and your husband claimed to be all in favor of women's rights,
but he said "I let my wife wear what she wants, I let her get a job,
I help her with her housework, and she's as free a girl as could be,"
would it be "just semantics" for someone to point out that he was
still calling you a girl instead of a woman, and still seeing
everything you did as something HE LET you do?
In a context like that, the job and wardrobe and housework are not as
important as the attitude and beliefs that show through the words.
Sandra
> We don't make him do chores,This is not just semantics. This will probably seem like a fluff of
> we don't make him do schooly stuff, we don't make him eat stuff he
> doesn't want to, we mostly don't make him go out if he doesn't want
> to, we do let him play on the computer and play legos as much as he
> wants. We play games with him and read to him when he asks. What else
> could he control that we're not letting him?
nothing, but it might be the thing that will change your point of view.
The paragraph above is about you and your husband.
We don't
we don't
we don't
we mostly don't
we do
we play
we, we, we...
And it closes up with "What else could he control...?
You don't really see your son as controlling anything, but it does
seem like maybe you see yourselves as trying to control and him not
cooperating with all the things that YOU are and aren't doing.
You didn't even say "he plays games and plays lego," you said "We let
him play."
So control is big in your families though you're trying to get away
from it. It's still in your voice and your thoughts, though. The
words of control are still being used.
As an analogy, if it were the 70's and your social focus was women's
rights and your husband claimed to be all in favor of women's rights,
but he said "I let my wife wear what she wants, I let her get a job,
I help her with her housework, and she's as free a girl as could be,"
would it be "just semantics" for someone to point out that he was
still calling you a girl instead of a woman, and still seeing
everything you did as something HE LET you do?
In a context like that, the job and wardrobe and housework are not as
important as the attitude and beliefs that show through the words.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 7:50 AM, cookwoodpress wrote:
different aspects.
Talking in the moment is no good.
If a child is saying "shut up" or saying nothing, the mom has said
too much.
Talk to him between times, and when you're not emotional or needy
about his responses. Or maybe even see if there's someone else he
will talk to about it--your husband or one of the siblings.
A way to ask him might be to say "Is there a way you would like to go
to... "?
-=-Is there any way to make any of the icky parts better so that the
rest of us could go?-=-
Ask him what would make HIM comfortable. Don't remind him (again)
that he needs to make the rest of you happy.
It seems your attention isn't on what will help him have a happier
life, but on the ways in which his happiness is an unfair burden on
the rest of you. You've cast him as a bad guy. He probably doesn't
want to be a bad guy at all, but being told he is he's more likely to
act that way.
Most kids go through a stage of saying no. Try not to do things
that will prolong that need to say no.
Sandra
> And I wish, I wish we could talk about stuff, but in the moment, it'sI'm answering this post in parts because it was about lots of
> almost impossible to talk to him. While I'm trying to figure out if
> there's a way to make it more palatable, or trying to figure out if
> there's a part that he doesn't like in particular that we could get
> rid of, he's yelling "I'm not going. Shut up!" Sometimes I try "you
> don't have to go (for real), but could you tell me why you don't want
> to go". I still get "shut up" or nothing.
different aspects.
Talking in the moment is no good.
If a child is saying "shut up" or saying nothing, the mom has said
too much.
Talk to him between times, and when you're not emotional or needy
about his responses. Or maybe even see if there's someone else he
will talk to about it--your husband or one of the siblings.
A way to ask him might be to say "Is there a way you would like to go
to... "?
-=-Is there any way to make any of the icky parts better so that the
rest of us could go?-=-
Ask him what would make HIM comfortable. Don't remind him (again)
that he needs to make the rest of you happy.
It seems your attention isn't on what will help him have a happier
life, but on the ways in which his happiness is an unfair burden on
the rest of you. You've cast him as a bad guy. He probably doesn't
want to be a bad guy at all, but being told he is he's more likely to
act that way.
Most kids go through a stage of saying no. Try not to do things
that will prolong that need to say no.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 7:50 AM, cookwoodpress wrote:
People who sit in the front of the car where the heat is really warm
sometimes haven't been in the back for years, and heaters rarely work
as well in the back. That heat passes through cold from the engine
to the back seat. If he has ever said once that the car is cold for
him, then take a blanket and when he gets in, give him the blanket
nicely, generously, and say "Here, in case it's cold today." Give
him the option to be warmer in such a way that it's not another
struggle between you and him.
If it seems he speaks a different language, learn to speak his
language.
Maybe what you claim he knows isn't true is him trying to communicate
with you that his feelings are NOT your feelings.
Many times when I was a kid and told my mom that I was hungry, she
said "You're not hungry," or "You've never been hungry a day in your
life" or "You can't be hungry, you just had lunch two hours ago."
I wasn't saying something I knew wasn't true. I wasn't daring her to
get into an argument with me. She just wanted life to be fair, and
she had been a kid during the depression and so she wanted to remind
me (born in the 50's) that my life was better than hers, and that
wasn't fair. She wanted to "win" in the "will you feed me?" moment
and say "No, I won't." But it wasn't just that she didn't want me
to have food. She wanted me to feel bad for asking.
If anything you're doing with your son is even the SHADOW of what my
mom did, please cease and desist. Back away, far away, and try to
come at the relationship from a whole different angle.
The CD of the talk Ren and I did at Live and Learn might be helpful.
Sandra
> It also feels sometimes like he speaks a different language. SaysMaybe he means the heat doesn't warm him up. If so, it's true.
> things that he knows aren't true, almost daring me to get into an
> argument about those things. ("The car is too cold." "I could put on
> the heat." "No, the heat doesn't work." (except it does))
People who sit in the front of the car where the heat is really warm
sometimes haven't been in the back for years, and heaters rarely work
as well in the back. That heat passes through cold from the engine
to the back seat. If he has ever said once that the car is cold for
him, then take a blanket and when he gets in, give him the blanket
nicely, generously, and say "Here, in case it's cold today." Give
him the option to be warmer in such a way that it's not another
struggle between you and him.
If it seems he speaks a different language, learn to speak his
language.
Maybe what you claim he knows isn't true is him trying to communicate
with you that his feelings are NOT your feelings.
Many times when I was a kid and told my mom that I was hungry, she
said "You're not hungry," or "You've never been hungry a day in your
life" or "You can't be hungry, you just had lunch two hours ago."
I wasn't saying something I knew wasn't true. I wasn't daring her to
get into an argument with me. She just wanted life to be fair, and
she had been a kid during the depression and so she wanted to remind
me (born in the 50's) that my life was better than hers, and that
wasn't fair. She wanted to "win" in the "will you feed me?" moment
and say "No, I won't." But it wasn't just that she didn't want me
to have food. She wanted me to feel bad for asking.
If anything you're doing with your son is even the SHADOW of what my
mom did, please cease and desist. Back away, far away, and try to
come at the relationship from a whole different angle.
The CD of the talk Ren and I did at Live and Learn might be helpful.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
Be your child's partner!
Don't measure.
space, time, comfort, money, sleep.
At what point should the toddler or youngster or child or teen be
giving 100% to the parent?
N-E-V-E-R.
Never even 50/50.
But if you stop counting, if you stop measuring, if you stop feeling
like you're losing... if you start seeing you and your child as
partners, as a dyad, then you win every time your child wins. Your
team wins.
Sandra
Don't measure.
> -=-> He will be generous with you later on, if you're generous withWhen an infant is born, a parent is 100% the one who sacrifices
> him
> > now. If you try for 50/50 now (what seems to you like 50/50) you'll
> > end up with little to nothing later, I'm thinking, going by the good
> > and the bad relationships I've seen.-=-
>
> -=-I think this is an interesting point and want to think about it
> more,
> but right now it feels about 95/5, if that.-=-
space, time, comfort, money, sleep.
At what point should the toddler or youngster or child or teen be
giving 100% to the parent?
N-E-V-E-R.
Never even 50/50.
But if you stop counting, if you stop measuring, if you stop feeling
like you're losing... if you start seeing you and your child as
partners, as a dyad, then you win every time your child wins. Your
team wins.
Sandra
Betsy Hill
**
Or if there's only one parent available, it can mean that he's
controlling whether dd8 gets to go to her activities or not. That
doesn't seem right to me.**
Hi, Liz --
Does more warning help? (For example if he needs to come to the end of
his lego project or finish a level in his computer game.)
What about making the waiting time during sister's activity really,
really fun. Have you already been doing that?
Some parents buy the "trailing" kid a Gameboy for playing during
sister's dance lessons (for example). But if you have 5 kids, that's a
lot of dollars. But borrowing one for a couple of weeks from someone
who doesn't use theirs much might fly.
I have a husband and a son who really really like to stay home. Since
he doesn't have any siblings (my son, I mean) we just stay home a lot.
Now that he's 11, he stays home when I do nearby errands and short
outings. And yeah, sometimes I wish he would come with me. Now that he
has a choice, the percentage of times he wants to come to the grocery
store is about zero. Sometimes I wish he thought coming to the store
with me would be a thrill, but he doesn't.
**("The car is too cold." "I could put on
the heat." "No, the heat doesn't work." (except it does))**
The heat on my car doesn't work the first couple of minutes when the
engine is cold. Could that be what he means? Or is it really colder in
the backseat than in the front?
**It feels like he's taking advantage.**
Were you forced to do a lot of things as a kid? Does it seem like he
has a sweet deal (compared to you) and does that make you feel some
rivalry or jealousy?
Best wishes,
Betsy
Or if there's only one parent available, it can mean that he's
controlling whether dd8 gets to go to her activities or not. That
doesn't seem right to me.**
Hi, Liz --
Does more warning help? (For example if he needs to come to the end of
his lego project or finish a level in his computer game.)
What about making the waiting time during sister's activity really,
really fun. Have you already been doing that?
Some parents buy the "trailing" kid a Gameboy for playing during
sister's dance lessons (for example). But if you have 5 kids, that's a
lot of dollars. But borrowing one for a couple of weeks from someone
who doesn't use theirs much might fly.
I have a husband and a son who really really like to stay home. Since
he doesn't have any siblings (my son, I mean) we just stay home a lot.
Now that he's 11, he stays home when I do nearby errands and short
outings. And yeah, sometimes I wish he would come with me. Now that he
has a choice, the percentage of times he wants to come to the grocery
store is about zero. Sometimes I wish he thought coming to the store
with me would be a thrill, but he doesn't.
**("The car is too cold." "I could put on
the heat." "No, the heat doesn't work." (except it does))**
The heat on my car doesn't work the first couple of minutes when the
engine is cold. Could that be what he means? Or is it really colder in
the backseat than in the front?
**It feels like he's taking advantage.**
Were you forced to do a lot of things as a kid? Does it seem like he
has a sweet deal (compared to you) and does that make you feel some
rivalry or jealousy?
Best wishes,
Betsy
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 9:49 AM, wifetovegman2002 wrote:
help in such cases too.
If both parents go but one is willing to walk the kid out or to a
quiet corner, or on the other side of a window or wall, it's a KIND
of being there, without full-on involvement.
Some kids really just want to watch, and maybe for just a short time.
Sandra
> We told him he didn't have to do anything he wasn't comfortable doing,Being willing to just sit with him on the side, or in the car, might
> and we would invite him to go but never make it mandatory. Often I
> would stay home with him because I missed my boy so much.
help in such cases too.
If both parents go but one is willing to walk the kid out or to a
quiet corner, or on the other side of a window or wall, it's a KIND
of being there, without full-on involvement.
Some kids really just want to watch, and maybe for just a short time.
Sandra
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 23, 2006, at 6:50 AM, cookwoodpress wrote:
places. He wanted to stay home with his things - his lego, computer
games, bike, skateboard, etc. THAT was his interest and he had almost
no interest in anything outside the house.
She did everything she could to honor that desire on his part. It DID
restrict her ability to go out. She made arrangements - she WORKED at
it because it seemed important.
He is an outgoing VERY sociable 16 year old, today. He is most
definitely not even remotely a "homebody" - not by any stretch of the
imagination.
If a child wants to stay home 99 percent of the time, but mom makes
him go 20 percent of the time, that is going to feel, to HIM, like
his needs don't count, like he is being coerced, like his needs and
wants are being discounted in favor of his siblings'. And it is going
to feel like he is at risk of being coerced into going at any time -
on his mother's whim. AND it is going to seem, to him, like he hasn't
made a big enough deal out of it - hasn't communicated how MUCH he
REALLY doesn't want to be forced to go.
From Mom's point of view it is going to seem like she's "letting
him" stay home 80 percent of the time - way more than meeting him
halfway. When he doesn't see it her way, and pitches fits - actively
resists - she can feel taken advantage of and controlled, or she can
choose to see that this is TRULY important to him and she can see the
fits and resistance as his "only" way of communicating how important
this is to him.
There are options - it isn't a matter of everyone has to be stuck at
home because one young child doesn't want to go. But, yes, it might
very well mean that the vision the mother has of the whole family
going out to do things together has to be scrapped. It is MOM's
vision, not the son's. I know how annoying it can be when our own
visions, which would be SO wonderful if everybody else would just
recognize it and go along with the program, are not shared by our kids.
I suggest making a LONG list of options - brainstorm with the whole
family. NO idea is too outlandish, no censoring of ideas, no saying
anything is too expensive or not workable. Just list EVERY possible
idea - try to get a hundred of them down on paper. One will lead to
another. Then pick your top 10 or 20. Keep that list on the
refrigerator and when he says he doesn't want to go - together you
can look at the options and together decide which one to pick.
Remember that some options will include him going, but getting
something in return. Other options will include nobody going. There
will be some options where only he will stay home - give him this in
fantasy, at least. And many will include some people going and some
staying home.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I felt like that on behalf of my friend whose son resisted going
> When is it enough? I feel like he has everything he wants, except for
> having to go in the car sometimes (but not all the times) when he
> doesn't want to, and that's still not enough. And it doesn't seem fair
> to his sisters or to dh and me. It feels like he's taking advantage. I
> feel controlled.
places. He wanted to stay home with his things - his lego, computer
games, bike, skateboard, etc. THAT was his interest and he had almost
no interest in anything outside the house.
She did everything she could to honor that desire on his part. It DID
restrict her ability to go out. She made arrangements - she WORKED at
it because it seemed important.
He is an outgoing VERY sociable 16 year old, today. He is most
definitely not even remotely a "homebody" - not by any stretch of the
imagination.
If a child wants to stay home 99 percent of the time, but mom makes
him go 20 percent of the time, that is going to feel, to HIM, like
his needs don't count, like he is being coerced, like his needs and
wants are being discounted in favor of his siblings'. And it is going
to feel like he is at risk of being coerced into going at any time -
on his mother's whim. AND it is going to seem, to him, like he hasn't
made a big enough deal out of it - hasn't communicated how MUCH he
REALLY doesn't want to be forced to go.
From Mom's point of view it is going to seem like she's "letting
him" stay home 80 percent of the time - way more than meeting him
halfway. When he doesn't see it her way, and pitches fits - actively
resists - she can feel taken advantage of and controlled, or she can
choose to see that this is TRULY important to him and she can see the
fits and resistance as his "only" way of communicating how important
this is to him.
There are options - it isn't a matter of everyone has to be stuck at
home because one young child doesn't want to go. But, yes, it might
very well mean that the vision the mother has of the whole family
going out to do things together has to be scrapped. It is MOM's
vision, not the son's. I know how annoying it can be when our own
visions, which would be SO wonderful if everybody else would just
recognize it and go along with the program, are not shared by our kids.
I suggest making a LONG list of options - brainstorm with the whole
family. NO idea is too outlandish, no censoring of ideas, no saying
anything is too expensive or not workable. Just list EVERY possible
idea - try to get a hundred of them down on paper. One will lead to
another. Then pick your top 10 or 20. Keep that list on the
refrigerator and when he says he doesn't want to go - together you
can look at the options and together decide which one to pick.
Remember that some options will include him going, but getting
something in return. Other options will include nobody going. There
will be some options where only he will stay home - give him this in
fantasy, at least. And many will include some people going and some
staying home.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 23, 2006, at 5:39 AM, cookwoodpress wrote:
another child, so you ARE getting that.
away from HIS activities. Just because his activities are at home and
not externally scheduled, they shouldn't get lower priority.
I'm not saying it is easy - I'm saying that there is an underlying
attitude that he is trying to take advantage of you. But kids do not
think that way - you're attributing motive to him that is not there.
He is trying to get his needs met.
I have three kids and I KNOW about how the youngest does get dragged
away from at-home activities to take older kids to their scheduled
activities. Been there; done that. I'm not discounting the
difficulty. But you can't appeal to his sense of fairness - that
isn't developed enough AND it comes with feeling fairly treated.
You told us about his behavior and it sounds like he's "speaking"
loud and clear - but you don't want to hear what he's saying because
it is too hard. You have my sympathy about the "hardness" of it.
You can make him go in spite of his resistance. You can tell him,
over and over, that you're being fair to only ask him to go some of
the time. You KNOW how to do that. Or you can take a deep breath and
remember that you brought the issue here and you're getting ideas and
responses from people who have experience, aren't currently stuck in
the situation and so can possibly think more clearly, with more
detached perspective. You can ignore the ideas or you can take a leap
of faith and try them out. Watch for a little success - do more of
what seems to work for you.
If you're looking for people here to say that he's not being fair and
you're right to feel he is trying to take advantage of you -- I don't
think that would be useful in helping you better meet your family's
needs.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But hisYou don't get to do what you want to do? What you chose was to have
> desire to stay home directly bumps up against other people's desire to
> go out. If one of us has to stay home with him, that means we don't
> get to do what we wanted to do (and the other kids don't get our
> company).
another child, so you ARE getting that.
>And when you drag him out for dd8's activities, you are dragging him
> Or if there's only one parent available, it can mean that he's
> controlling whether dd8 gets to go to her activities or not. That
> doesn't seem right to me.
away from HIS activities. Just because his activities are at home and
not externally scheduled, they shouldn't get lower priority.
I'm not saying it is easy - I'm saying that there is an underlying
attitude that he is trying to take advantage of you. But kids do not
think that way - you're attributing motive to him that is not there.
He is trying to get his needs met.
I have three kids and I KNOW about how the youngest does get dragged
away from at-home activities to take older kids to their scheduled
activities. Been there; done that. I'm not discounting the
difficulty. But you can't appeal to his sense of fairness - that
isn't developed enough AND it comes with feeling fairly treated.
You told us about his behavior and it sounds like he's "speaking"
loud and clear - but you don't want to hear what he's saying because
it is too hard. You have my sympathy about the "hardness" of it.
You can make him go in spite of his resistance. You can tell him,
over and over, that you're being fair to only ask him to go some of
the time. You KNOW how to do that. Or you can take a deep breath and
remember that you brought the issue here and you're getting ideas and
responses from people who have experience, aren't currently stuck in
the situation and so can possibly think more clearly, with more
detached perspective. You can ignore the ideas or you can take a leap
of faith and try them out. Watch for a little success - do more of
what seems to work for you.
If you're looking for people here to say that he's not being fair and
you're right to feel he is trying to take advantage of you -- I don't
think that would be useful in helping you better meet your family's
needs.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
O. Kay Mardesich
My 11yo dd is a homebody too. She has never done well in unfamiliar places and like your son I tried courcing her to go places before I became a unschooling mom. Now, if she doesn't want to go, depending who needs to run the errand, either me or dh goes.
I give her complete control on any exhibits, museums or other places to go around town. I'm always offering, but often she says no and I respect that. We are going to the Live and Learn conference in Sept as a family. dd has already said she will spend her time in the hotel room on the computer or in the pool with her dad. We said fine, do what you feel most comfortable doing.
We have been only unschooling since April 05, so she still have controll issues and I will honor that.
wifetovegman2002 <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "cookwoodpress"
<lcastro@c...> wrote:
My son Andrew has always been like this, but became more-so at about
age 7, due to anxiety and stress from going into unknown/unfamiliar
places, places he hadn't been before or that were loud and confusing
or might be crowded, etc. New experiences would bring on stomach
pains, tantrums, crying, meltdowns.
At first we didn't understand why these things were a problem for him,
and we weren't unschooling at the time, so I am ashamed to say we
tried bribing, forcing, cajoling, teasing, punishing, and nothing
worked. We thought him as being difficult, stubborn, naughty, ugh!
Thank goodness (but not soon enough) we learned about unschooling and
mindful parenting, and gave him complete and total control over when
and where and how long he goes out and about. And it wasn't until
then, and he matured a bit more, that he was able to explain why those
things were so hard for him.
The more we talked to him, the more we realized that for this kid, he
didn't have the ability to take past experiences and project what a
new experience might be like, or even apply it to a similar but
slightly different experience. It was like he was always walking
through a fog bank, with no bearings and no idea what was in front of him.
We told him he didn't have to do anything he wasn't comfortable doing,
and we would invite him to go but never make it mandatory. Often I
would stay home with him because I missed my boy so much.
I would bet it was about a year after we gave him control over that
area of his life before he started saying, "I think I would like to go
to the hobby shop" or "Can I go to the grocery store with you?" And I
would honor that and take him, and bring him right back home again, no
extra errands thrown in. Once he was comfortable with that, it
expanded some more to maybe two or three stops. And then going to
friends' houses.
This past weekend he went to a huge Halo2 party, and a friend spent
the night before at our house. All big changes from the way it was,
because he was allowed to make those decisions himself.
~Susan in VA
wifetovegman
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I give her complete control on any exhibits, museums or other places to go around town. I'm always offering, but often she says no and I respect that. We are going to the Live and Learn conference in Sept as a family. dd has already said she will spend her time in the hotel room on the computer or in the pool with her dad. We said fine, do what you feel most comfortable doing.
We have been only unschooling since April 05, so she still have controll issues and I will honor that.
wifetovegman2002 <wifetovegman2002@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "cookwoodpress"
<lcastro@c...> wrote:
>Liz,
> It feels to me more of a control thing. That he hates being forced to
> do things and that if there is any whiff of forcing, he immediately
> doesn't want to do it. But that's not the only part. He really doesn't
> like to go out and do stuff as much as others might.
My son Andrew has always been like this, but became more-so at about
age 7, due to anxiety and stress from going into unknown/unfamiliar
places, places he hadn't been before or that were loud and confusing
or might be crowded, etc. New experiences would bring on stomach
pains, tantrums, crying, meltdowns.
At first we didn't understand why these things were a problem for him,
and we weren't unschooling at the time, so I am ashamed to say we
tried bribing, forcing, cajoling, teasing, punishing, and nothing
worked. We thought him as being difficult, stubborn, naughty, ugh!
Thank goodness (but not soon enough) we learned about unschooling and
mindful parenting, and gave him complete and total control over when
and where and how long he goes out and about. And it wasn't until
then, and he matured a bit more, that he was able to explain why those
things were so hard for him.
The more we talked to him, the more we realized that for this kid, he
didn't have the ability to take past experiences and project what a
new experience might be like, or even apply it to a similar but
slightly different experience. It was like he was always walking
through a fog bank, with no bearings and no idea what was in front of him.
We told him he didn't have to do anything he wasn't comfortable doing,
and we would invite him to go but never make it mandatory. Often I
would stay home with him because I missed my boy so much.
I would bet it was about a year after we gave him control over that
area of his life before he started saying, "I think I would like to go
to the hobby shop" or "Can I go to the grocery store with you?" And I
would honor that and take him, and bring him right back home again, no
extra errands thrown in. Once he was comfortable with that, it
expanded some more to maybe two or three stops. And then going to
friends' houses.
This past weekend he went to a huge Halo2 party, and a friend spent
the night before at our house. All big changes from the way it was,
because he was allowed to make those decisions himself.
~Susan in VA
wifetovegman
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>
SPONSORED LINKS
Graduate school education High school education Home school education Middle school education New york school education School education in california
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "UnschoolingDiscussion" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Kay
http://www.freewebs.com/kiwiandkay
---------------------------------
What are the most popular cars? Find out at Yahoo! Autos
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandalmom
--- In [email protected], Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@j...>
wrote:
about him when I read the original post.
Something that has helped when we need him to come with us is finding a
way to work his intersts into whatever trip we make.
Sometimes its asking him to bring in his Foxtrot books to read to me in
the car, or telling him that we'll pretend medieval stuff or Star Wars
stuff on our outing. He makes up characters for me and I play them
while we're out. If we ask him to come on a hike, he says "No way!"
If we ask him to go come play Star Wars on the rocks at the beach, he
grins and comes along.
What is he into? Ask him how you could make it fun for him, or at
least tolerable.
HTH!
Christa
wrote:
>My 9yo son is very much like this. In fact, it seemed I was reading
> ***I don't know what to do. I'd appreciate any advice you all have.***
about him when I read the original post.
Something that has helped when we need him to come with us is finding a
way to work his intersts into whatever trip we make.
Sometimes its asking him to bring in his Foxtrot books to read to me in
the car, or telling him that we'll pretend medieval stuff or Star Wars
stuff on our outing. He makes up characters for me and I play them
while we're out. If we ask him to come on a hike, he says "No way!"
If we ask him to go come play Star Wars on the rocks at the beach, he
grins and comes along.
What is he into? Ask him how you could make it fun for him, or at
least tolerable.
HTH!
Christa
Betsy Hill
** My son Andrew has always been like this, but became more-so at about
age 7, due to anxiety and stress from going into unknown/unfamiliar
places, places he hadn't been before or that were loud and confusing
or might be crowded, etc. New experiences would bring on stomach
pains, tantrums, crying, meltdowns.**
I think I remember reading in The Mother's Almanac that around age 7
kids experience some new waves of hormones and that age 7 can be kind of
a preview of adolescence. I haven't researched it, so I can't prove
that it's scientifically valid. What do the "Your 7 Year Old" books say?
Betsy
age 7, due to anxiety and stress from going into unknown/unfamiliar
places, places he hadn't been before or that were loud and confusing
or might be crowded, etc. New experiences would bring on stomach
pains, tantrums, crying, meltdowns.**
I think I remember reading in The Mother's Almanac that around age 7
kids experience some new waves of hormones and that age 7 can be kind of
a preview of adolescence. I haven't researched it, so I can't prove
that it's scientifically valid. What do the "Your 7 Year Old" books say?
Betsy
sandalmom
--- In [email protected], "sandalmom"
<christa.mente@g...> wrote:
me in
really is. But sometimes the reality is that we have to get somewhere
and he doesn't like staying home alone. We've talked about this many
times, and I think he trusts me.
I think he knows my intention is not to be devious but to help him. I
just wanted to clarify that.
~Christa
<christa.mente@g...> wrote:
>****Sometimes its asking him to bring in his Foxtrot books to read to
me in
> the car, or telling him that we'll pretend medieval stuff or StarWars
> stuff on our outing. He makes up characters for me and I play themI was reading my post over and realized how coercive it sounds. It
> while we're out. If we ask him to come on a hike, he says "No way!"
> If we ask him to go come play Star Wars on the rocks at the beach, he
> grins and comes along*******
>
really is. But sometimes the reality is that we have to get somewhere
and he doesn't like staying home alone. We've talked about this many
times, and I think he trusts me.
I think he knows my intention is not to be devious but to help him. I
just wanted to clarify that.
~Christa
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 23, 2006, at 1:12 PM, sandalmom wrote:
That's not coercive.
If persuasion is coersion, no one can morally ask another person to
go on a date, or make cookies, or share the couch.
If you make him an offer and he understands what's going on and he
accepts the offer, that's not coercion.
If you disguise force as choice, or if you give him two really ugly
choices and it's not really a choice, that might be coercion.
-=-We've talked about this many
times, and I think he trusts me.
-=-
Trust is what's doing it, not the offer of playing.
Every kid should get a chance to play, and every unschooling parent
should play with kids.
Doesn't sound devious to me. Sounds accommodating.
Sandra
> >===================
> ****Sometimes its asking him to bring in his Foxtrot books to read to
> me in
> > the car, or telling him that we'll pretend medieval stuff or Star
> Wars
> > stuff on our outing. He makes up characters for me and I play them
> > while we're out. If we ask him to come on a hike, he says "No way!"
> > If we ask him to go come play Star Wars on the rocks at the
> beach, he
> > grins and comes along*******
> >
> I was reading my post over and realized how coercive it sounds. It
> really is.
That's not coercive.
If persuasion is coersion, no one can morally ask another person to
go on a date, or make cookies, or share the couch.
If you make him an offer and he understands what's going on and he
accepts the offer, that's not coercion.
If you disguise force as choice, or if you give him two really ugly
choices and it's not really a choice, that might be coercion.
-=-We've talked about this many
times, and I think he trusts me.
-=-
Trust is what's doing it, not the offer of playing.
Every kid should get a chance to play, and every unschooling parent
should play with kids.
Doesn't sound devious to me. Sounds accommodating.
Sandra
[email protected]
Does he have fun once you all get to where you're going? I use to get this a
lot from my middle daughter who is now 13 and at times she'll still be less
interested in going places. She gets car sick really easy. We live in Houston
and well traffic can be bad at all times of the day. The stopping and going
gives her a headache and nausea and other times even if where we're going is
15 to 20 minutes away she many times doesn't want to go. Now I make sure that
she sits up front most of the time and it helps but not completely. When she
was little I moved her booster seat to the middle of the backseat so she
could see where we were going. Now we try to plan a lot of things either here
or close to the house. It also helps the keep her mind occupied while driving
like telling jokes & stories, people watching ( in my 10 yr old case making
faces at them), or playing games.
Hope this helps, Phyllis
In a message dated 1/23/2006 11:28:17 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
If I try to talk about it, we either go right back to the "shut up"
parts, or he'll say "I'm really sorry about what happened", which is
certainly less abrasive, but mostly feels to me like a gentler version
of "I don't want to talk about this". I don't need or want him to say
he's sorry, I just want to know more about the situation and what
bugged him about it. Is it just going out of the house? Is it going to
that particular place? Is it driving there? Is there any way to make
any of the icky parts better so that the rest of us could go?
It also feels sometimes like he speaks a different language. Says
things that he knows aren't true, almost daring me to get into an
argument about those things. ("The car is too cold." "I could put on
the heat." "No, the heat doesn't work." (except it does)) Where it
gets to arguing about a provable fact, I don't say anymore. It feels
like more control stuff.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lot from my middle daughter who is now 13 and at times she'll still be less
interested in going places. She gets car sick really easy. We live in Houston
and well traffic can be bad at all times of the day. The stopping and going
gives her a headache and nausea and other times even if where we're going is
15 to 20 minutes away she many times doesn't want to go. Now I make sure that
she sits up front most of the time and it helps but not completely. When she
was little I moved her booster seat to the middle of the backseat so she
could see where we were going. Now we try to plan a lot of things either here
or close to the house. It also helps the keep her mind occupied while driving
like telling jokes & stories, people watching ( in my 10 yr old case making
faces at them), or playing games.
Hope this helps, Phyllis
In a message dated 1/23/2006 11:28:17 A.M. Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
If I try to talk about it, we either go right back to the "shut up"
parts, or he'll say "I'm really sorry about what happened", which is
certainly less abrasive, but mostly feels to me like a gentler version
of "I don't want to talk about this". I don't need or want him to say
he's sorry, I just want to know more about the situation and what
bugged him about it. Is it just going out of the house? Is it going to
that particular place? Is it driving there? Is there any way to make
any of the icky parts better so that the rest of us could go?
It also feels sometimes like he speaks a different language. Says
things that he knows aren't true, almost daring me to get into an
argument about those things. ("The car is too cold." "I could put on
the heat." "No, the heat doesn't work." (except it does)) Where it
gets to arguing about a provable fact, I don't say anymore. It feels
like more control stuff.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Tellew
My youngest boy, almost 7, is like this right now (right now, I say,
hopefully...)
I'm thinking about the idea of him needing more control, not less. And
just in thinking about that, not even really doing anything, things were
better with our outing yesterday. I think just having the attitude that
I'm not in a power struggle with him helps so much. He senses it.
Sandra said:
or drained, it's so hard to not revert to a little whiny "oh poor me"
refrain. Betsy said something helpful to me the other day when I was
whining about this on another list, that I should probably recognize that
I'm depleted right now and need to find ways to nourish myself and then
I'll be able to be more giving to my kids.
I think so many of us grew up being told we were asking for too much that
it's hard for us to recognize our own needs. And then we wind up short and
impatient with our kids because we're annoyed that our own needs aren't
being met - and not because they're in direct contradiction to our
children's needs. That's too narrow a way to look at it.
I know I've gone through this before where I'm thinking it's this big
contest as to who gets what they want - me or the kids or even me or my
husband. But every time, it's really about me needing to take a little
more care of myself. Not that that's easy, but the shift in perspective
does wonders for family dynamics!
Maybe that rings true for you, Liz?
Pam
hopefully...)
I'm thinking about the idea of him needing more control, not less. And
just in thinking about that, not even really doing anything, things were
better with our outing yesterday. I think just having the attitude that
I'm not in a power struggle with him helps so much. He senses it.
Sandra said:
>Be your child's partner!BUT... here's where I run up against myself a lot. When I'm feel stressed
>Don't measure
or drained, it's so hard to not revert to a little whiny "oh poor me"
refrain. Betsy said something helpful to me the other day when I was
whining about this on another list, that I should probably recognize that
I'm depleted right now and need to find ways to nourish myself and then
I'll be able to be more giving to my kids.
I think so many of us grew up being told we were asking for too much that
it's hard for us to recognize our own needs. And then we wind up short and
impatient with our kids because we're annoyed that our own needs aren't
being met - and not because they're in direct contradiction to our
children's needs. That's too narrow a way to look at it.
I know I've gone through this before where I'm thinking it's this big
contest as to who gets what they want - me or the kids or even me or my
husband. But every time, it's really about me needing to take a little
more care of myself. Not that that's easy, but the shift in perspective
does wonders for family dynamics!
Maybe that rings true for you, Liz?
Pam
Sandra Dodd
On Jan 24, 2006, at 9:06 AM, Pam Tellew wrote:
Oh, me too. Just this week there was a moment when I told Marty and
Holly I was feeling unappreciated and maybe they needed to figure out
when I wasn't in the mood to be made fun of. But I just hit that
point, said so, and didn't dwell there.
It's possible for people to just start identifying themselves as
"unappreciated" and looking for evidence that they're "right" that
they're being abused by evil others, and that feeling starts to feed
on itself.
For me, saying "Sheesh, I'm feeling whiny" and then taking a few deep
breaths, starting the washing machine (and thinking of how much
better it will be when people have their favorite clothes ready) and
starting the dishwasher (and thinking of how much better it will be
when Kirby has his favorite cup and the cheese grater is clean and
there's room for people to make sandwiches) is way more helpful than
thinking bad thoughts about other people and feeling that I'm not
only whiny, but I SHOULD be whiny, and they should do their own
laundry and dishes.
-=-I think so many of us grew up being told we were asking for too
much that
it's hard for us to recognize our own needs.-=-
One of my mom's insults that I forgot to include when Ren and I were
exchanging mom messages in the talk in St. Louis was this:
You have expensive tastes.
That insult didn't start until I was fourteen or so and commented on
having the cheapest of all socks, clothes, shampoo... My mom
could've spent more on everyday things if she didn't need to spend so
much on cigarettes, coffee and beer. So she chose to blame me for
"having expensive tastes."
I was thinking about that this morning, and it might be worth turning
into an article. A kid who's never seen a Dorling Kindersley book
might be more impressed with Little Golden Books. Once someone has
tasted Godiva chocolate, they might be more unhappy with those cheap
little things in foil at Easter. Should we deprive kids of quality
things so they'll be happier with the bottom of the range?
-=-I know I've gone through this before where I'm thinking it's this big
contest as to who gets what they want - me or the kids or even me or my
husband. But every time, it's really about me needing to take a little
more care of myself. Not that that's easy, but the shift in perspective
does wonders for family dynamics!-=-
I have that feeling about my husband sometimes, and now when I do I
do something really nice for him (whether he knows it or not) and
remind myself that we're partners, and his happiness is going to add
to my happiness. It doesn't work in every single case but it's
generally better than the alternative.
Sandra
> BUT... here's where I run up against myself a lot. When I'm feel==============
> stressed
> or drained, it's so hard to not revert to a little whiny "oh poor me"
> refrain.
Oh, me too. Just this week there was a moment when I told Marty and
Holly I was feeling unappreciated and maybe they needed to figure out
when I wasn't in the mood to be made fun of. But I just hit that
point, said so, and didn't dwell there.
It's possible for people to just start identifying themselves as
"unappreciated" and looking for evidence that they're "right" that
they're being abused by evil others, and that feeling starts to feed
on itself.
For me, saying "Sheesh, I'm feeling whiny" and then taking a few deep
breaths, starting the washing machine (and thinking of how much
better it will be when people have their favorite clothes ready) and
starting the dishwasher (and thinking of how much better it will be
when Kirby has his favorite cup and the cheese grater is clean and
there's room for people to make sandwiches) is way more helpful than
thinking bad thoughts about other people and feeling that I'm not
only whiny, but I SHOULD be whiny, and they should do their own
laundry and dishes.
-=-I think so many of us grew up being told we were asking for too
much that
it's hard for us to recognize our own needs.-=-
One of my mom's insults that I forgot to include when Ren and I were
exchanging mom messages in the talk in St. Louis was this:
You have expensive tastes.
That insult didn't start until I was fourteen or so and commented on
having the cheapest of all socks, clothes, shampoo... My mom
could've spent more on everyday things if she didn't need to spend so
much on cigarettes, coffee and beer. So she chose to blame me for
"having expensive tastes."
I was thinking about that this morning, and it might be worth turning
into an article. A kid who's never seen a Dorling Kindersley book
might be more impressed with Little Golden Books. Once someone has
tasted Godiva chocolate, they might be more unhappy with those cheap
little things in foil at Easter. Should we deprive kids of quality
things so they'll be happier with the bottom of the range?
-=-I know I've gone through this before where I'm thinking it's this big
contest as to who gets what they want - me or the kids or even me or my
husband. But every time, it's really about me needing to take a little
more care of myself. Not that that's easy, but the shift in perspective
does wonders for family dynamics!-=-
I have that feeling about my husband sometimes, and now when I do I
do something really nice for him (whether he knows it or not) and
remind myself that we're partners, and his happiness is going to add
to my happiness. It doesn't work in every single case but it's
generally better than the alternative.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
AHA!
A Beneful commercial on TV just now (Beneful is a kind of dry dog
food) has the guy being all sweet with his puppy, and the voice says
"You just *think* you're getting spoiled."
What would THAT mean!?
You just think I'm giving you something especially good?
You just THINK you're better than other dogs?
You just THINK you wouldn't like other dogfood now?
And... would dogs even think about "being spoiled"? <bwg>
Sandra
A Beneful commercial on TV just now (Beneful is a kind of dry dog
food) has the guy being all sweet with his puppy, and the voice says
"You just *think* you're getting spoiled."
What would THAT mean!?
You just think I'm giving you something especially good?
You just THINK you're better than other dogs?
You just THINK you wouldn't like other dogfood now?
And... would dogs even think about "being spoiled"? <bwg>
Sandra
On Jan 24, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
> That insult didn't start until I was fourteen or so and commented on
> having the cheapest of all socks, clothes, shampoo... My mom
> could've spent more on everyday things if she didn't need to spend so
> much on cigarettes, coffee and beer. So she chose to blame me for
> "having expensive tastes."
>
> I was thinking about that this morning, and it might be worth turning
> into an article. A kid who's never seen a Dorling Kindersley book
> might be more impressed with Little Golden Books. Once someone has
> tasted Godiva chocolate, they might be more unhappy with those cheap
> little things in foil at Easter. Should we deprive kids of quality
> things so they'll be happier with the bottom of the range?