Sandra Dodd

> On Jan 18, 2006, at 1:49 PM, Liz Castro wrote:
>
>
>> I've always loved thinking about the ways different languages count
>> and how that affects the way we think. For example, there's this
>> whole "tween" thing going on in the US and so much emphasis on
>> "teenagers", but because of the way we count, teenagers are aged
>> 13-19. But big kids in other languages don't have such divisions.


=============

That was in a side conversation about my etymology page, whic now has
the days of the week in Catalan (thanks, Liz)...
And I thought it might be useful here.

Pam Sorooshian and I were talking about there being some problems
because of the language itself. Teacher and teaching and learning
and the problems with sorting all that have to do with English, not
with how cognition really works. On the other hand, cognition works
with language in very many ways and cases, and so if someone has come
to believe something, it can take a lot of words and some conscious
desire and effort to build a new internal model.

Sandra

cookwoodpress

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@S...> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 18, 2006, at 1:49 PM, Liz Castro wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I've always loved thinking about the ways different languages
> >> count and how that affects the way we think. For example, there's
this
> >> whole "tween" thing going on in the US and so much emphasis on
> >> "teenagers", but because of the way we count, teenagers are aged
> >> 13-19. But big kids in other languages don't have such divisions.
>

So, if in Spanish you say:

once, doce, trece, catorce, quince, dieciseis, diecisiete, dieciocho,
diecinueve

basically:

eleven, twelve, threlve, forelve, fifelve, sixteen, seventeen, etc.

There are no "teenagers" until sixteen!

In Catalan and French it goes:

onze, dotze, tretze, catorze, quinze, setze, disset, divuit, dinou
onze, douze, treize, quatorze, quinze, seize, dix-sept, dix-huit, dix-neuf

which means there are no teenagers until seventeen!

At least in Barcelona, they don't have a word for teenager, except for
"adolescent" which is not so age based.

I think I like thinking about this because my mother always said that
"teenagers do this" and "teenagers do that" and when I got to be a
teenager (that magic day when I turned 13, since I was an English
speaker), I refused to do the things my mother said I would do. (Well,
most of them <g>.)


> On the other hand, cognition works
> with language in very many ways and cases, and so if someone has
> come to believe something, it can take a lot of words and some
> conscious desire and effort to build a new internal model.

I remember reading a self-help book about ten years ago (when I was
more into self-help books) and it recommended "Would you do xyz?" over
"Could you do xyz?" since the "could" implied a doubt about the
person's ability and might be offensive. But I lived in Barcelona at
the time and the first thing I thought of was that both could and
would are said the same way in Catalan (and in Spanish and French for
that matter). So, was the problem of getting your needs met just one
that affected English speakers? Or was the solution one that would
only help English speakers? (Or was it all just a bogus theory?)

I think words are really important, but I also think that the ideas
behind them can get lost if we only focus on the words.

I'd be curious to hear more about the teach/teacher question. Teacher
in most Romance languages is "master"...

Liz

Sandra Dodd

> it recommended "Would you do xyz?" over
> "Could you do xyz?" since the "could" implied a doubt about the
> person's ability and might be offensive.

And then "Can you" has other meanings, and 200 years ago, if someone
said "You shall" it was a VERY strong statement which could only be
made by someone who had authority to really tell you what to do. Now
people don't even use it of themselves, though they were still
teaching us to use it, 40 years ago. It's too strong a statement for
most people to want to make.


In English we only have one being, and French has two; the temporary
state, and the permanent beingness are two different verbs. That's
probably part of what has caused us confusion in discussions about
labelling children or whether one *IS* an unschooler or not. If we
had more than one level of isness, that would help.

I've heard stories of multi-lingual societies changing languages for
various purposes. Spanish is good for mushy moments and bedrooms,
I've heard. I wonder if another language than English might be best
for discussing learning.


http://sandradodd.com/wordswords

There's some of the business of teaching/learning.
In the "maestra" languages, just because someone is the master of a
subject doesn't mean that in itself causes learning in anyone else.
In English people are baffled, and blame people for being bad and
wrong and defective, when the presence of a teacher produces no
"teaching," because "teach" seems to imply there is a substance which
can be transferred from one person to another.

Sandra