Christine Nigro

Hello Su,

Your neighbor sounds like my family lol!!

We've been unschooling for a little over 5yrs now. I've got 4 kids from
8yo to 11mos. We have a very few unschooled friends. They are as you
described: lefty, organic-food-eating, birkie-wearing friends too and
differ from us in the fact that they place certain limitations on
things like food/drink/snacks and tv/video games/toys. See, I've never
felt like we fit in with any particular group. I'm part of a small
somewhat local unschooling e-group but most of the people are not
unschooling, they are either relaxed homeschoolers or eclectic
unschoolers and none are radical unschoolers. The families we get on
most with still have certain limitations like limited TV viewing or
prescreened TV/movies, limited video game time if any at all, and
limitations on food/snacks/beverages (due to certain sensitivities
though), and are not allowed to play or have certain types of toys.
Then there is us. Going on playdates with meaty subs, regular chips,
caprisun drinks, and oreo cookies or even better yet with McDonald's
remnants on the floor of my car along with each of our traveling
gadgets be it a PSP, DS, iPod, or whatever. And somehow I always end up
feeling weird. I feel like I should hide when we eat so no one sees
that we are not eating organic or vegetarian fare or hide because my
kids are happy just sitting outside playing a video game even though
all the other kids are running around socializing. And it never fails,
the other kids will come around us and kinda stare at us and our
"stuff". My kids will offer out any snacks or food they are willing to
share and even offer to take turns with their hand held gaming stuff or
share earphones for their ipods. I get uncomfortable looks from the
moms and they will either politely remind their kids they have their
own snacks or that right now is time for playing outside and not time
for video games or every now and then the parent will simply thank us
for sharing and allow their children to mingle with us and our "stuff".

We are forever scrutinized for the things we buy our children (or
ourselves). Friends and neighbors constantly like to tell us how we
have too many toys, too many computers and techie gadgets, too many
books, too many varieties or snacks or cereals, too much clothing, too
many shoes, too much of everything. But each of us enjoy all that we
have and all that we set out to own. Whatever ends up not being used or
not being as fun as we thought it might be, we always find new homes
for =P The one I particularly get a kick out of, too many books!! Dh
and I are not too fond of the library, nothing against it, just that we
never return the books on time plus we like to jot notes in the margins
sometimes and also like having certain books on hand for future
reference or rereading. Sooo...we buy the books we all want. What is
the big deal?

We have this neighbor who has similarly aged children. Their family and
ours were friends for a little while until personality clashes surfaced
(between me and the mother) as well as clashes between parenting and
education styles. It was too much for my children and dh/I to witness
the spankings, humiliation, and tongue lashings their kids would
receive in front of us. Now we are just civil but we don't get together
any more. When our kids are outside, they play. When my kids invite
their kids in, all of a sudden they are not allowed in anymore. The
oldest (8yo) told me they are not allowed to come over my house because
they have too much fun and because we have too many toys!!! The dad
told my dh that our lifestyle causes a problem for them. Why? Because
their kids come home saying how much fun they had making real play
dough, they had fun building a russian building out of wooden blocks,
had a blast creating window decorations out of perler beads, were
thrilled that they can use the boys computer to play cartoonnetwork
games, and love that our house is like a video game wonderland!! The
dad said they end up asking to have what our kids have. The mom likes
to yell at them "thou shall not covet thy neighbors TOYS!! Be grateful
you have anything at all!!" They don't like that their kids come home
feeling like home is a fun place if you let it be. Their kids seemed to
have this brainwashed mantra when they used to be allowed to play here.
They'd tell my kids "I dont know why you're not allowed to go to
school. School is where you learn, without school, you'll never know
anything!" My oldest can't stand these comments. He'd tell her
"Actually, that's not true at all. Maybe it's true for you but it's not
true for me and my brother and sisters. We learn almost everything we
know by ourselves. We're like...our own teachers. I bet there's a lot
of times your teacher wants to teach you things that you aren't
interested in right? Well, that doesn't happen at home. We learn what
we want to, when we want to, because it's fun that way and we end up
learning stuff better. That's what I know at least." The girl will
shrug and they'll go on playing. And then the last time they were here,
the oldest girl states to me "OOooh now I get it!! Your kids just have
fun all day every day and do the things they feel like doing and you
help them learn if they need it?? But otherwise they just learn things
like by playing sorta?" So this too is why the parents don't want them
here anymore. Their kids end up wanting to learn how my kids learn,
they see that their parents are wrong when they say that all kids only
will learn by going to school.

This was especially made super clear when the 8yo girl came over to
show off her special award she got from her teacher (for reading). She
told my 8yo that she is an advanced reader and the rest of the kids in
her class are not. She wanted to know what level he was at. He told her
that it was nice she got an award although he didn't really understand
the purpose of the award. He said he had no idea what she was talking
about when she asked what level he was at. She tried to explain it but
he wasn't grasping it. He told her that the only levels he's aware of
are levels of video games. He said that he has no reading level. He
told her he learned how to read on his own (6.5yo) that he reads what
he wants & when he needs to. He told her that there really isn't
anything he can't read but there are things he chooses not to read
because they are not interesting at that given moment. She was shocked
at this. "What do you mean you learned how to read on your own??? You
mean, your mom taught you right?" He told her "What? Like you think a
kid always needs an adult to teach them to read? Not true. No one
taught me anything. If you wanna know my secret, it's this: I decoded
the ways of letters and words by watching a lot of Digimon when I was
2-3yo and then playing and beating as many video games as possible and
finally tv--nickelodeon and cartoon network. That's how I learned
reading ok??!!" This was yet another thing that was completely opposite
to what their parents tell them. [sorry for going off on a tangent]

I had to chuckle at a lot of your points because so much of it
described us =D The little people for example. We've got city loads of
em lol!! This is yet another thing some folks like to poke at me for.
Why do your kids need ten thousand little people and sets? My answer:
why not? My first child received several LP sets, I saved them for the
next kid who also received a few different ones, saved those, so on and
so forth. So we've accumulated a lot. But what my kids DO with them I
always think is so cool!! My oldest is 8.5yo and still can find joy in
setting up a village along with his younger siblings. They take on
different roles and different themes each time. Sometimes they spread
their villages out across different rooms and make roads with wooden
tracks..their play becomes very detailed and elaborate. That's
awesome!! Same goes for their legos, Imaginext, and what not.

Then we'll have those same folks over who tsk tsk at our immense amount
of toys but then will be amazed at what our kids do with them. They'll
compliment the kids and say something nice about having such great
imaginations and then end it with "but you really do have too many
toys". Ugh. We'll have adults here who'll end up playing or building
something with Bonz, hexabits, Geomags, haba blocks, perler beads, what
have you and they'll say how they wished they got to grow up learning
in this way instead of going to school!! And every now and then they'll
get a better understanding of how our kids end up learning. Oh yes, I
forgot to add. Aside from folks thinking we have too many toys, they
think we have too many "adult" art supplies as well. One time on a
gorgeous spring day, I brought out an easel, watercolor paper, and
professional grade watercolor in tubes. I also had the usual kid stuff
like giant chalks and chalk paints. Some neighbors came around to say
hello and could not believe I was letting the kids "waste" expensive
watercolor paint. But I don't see it that way. The type of watercolors
they used are vibrant and give my kids the truer sense of color and
appreciation for watercolors (IMO). One adult actually attempted to
place limitations on my child by telling her she was squeezing out too
much or putting too much color in one spot. Then some of the people
were shocked that I didn't flinch or bat an eye when my toddler was
using the chalk paint as a tattooing medium lol!! She sat on the
driveway, took her shirt off, and began painting her legs, arms, chest,
head, and face. She was so content and peaceful and seemed to really be
in a creative flow. I saw nothing but joy beaming from her while the
other adults saw nothing but mess and waste =(

So I basically just wanted to pop in and say that it's nice to hear
that you have a new outlook on having a lot of toys =D

Christine


Message: 14
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 15:26:08 -0500
From: Su Penn <supenn@...>
Subject: RE: too many toys, was commericalism


I no longer think we have "too many" toys. And I feel free to buy
something new for the kids if I think they'd enjoy it. It's much more
pleasant than looking at my kids' toy shelves and feeling sour
because they have so much stuff by some arbitrary standard.

Su



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Su Penn

On Jan 10, 2006, at 12:54 PM, Christine Nigro wrote:

> Hello Su,
>
> Your neighbor sounds like my family lol!!

Except that this neighbor, sadly, is very controlling--she expects
her daughter to play with things the "right" way. And when I first
met them, I saw the daughter's art work on the wall and thought she
was a prodigy! It was amazing for a 2-year-old!

Then I did some art projects along with them and realized the artwork
on the wall was more the mom's than the kids: "Put the yellow there
now. No, the sun is not purple. Katharine, if you don't do it right
I'm going to take the crayons away. OK, here, let mommy help you...."
Ewww.

And she's always telling me that her daughter has picked up "bad"
habits from my son. And then she says, "Not that it's a big deal or
anything." And then she tells me how she punished her daughter for
it. Like when her daughter got the idea from my son not to eat the
crusts of his sandwich (not a big deal to me--I cut his sandwiches
into four triangles and he gnaws them to the very verge--I don't care
if he feeds the crusts to the dog!). "I just laughed," she told me,
"it's no big deal. But of course I didn't let her have yogurt or
dessert since she didn't eat her crusts."

Sigh.

So, except for the piles of toys, I don't think you have much in
common with her at all!

I recognized myself in your post, too. I have a homeschool group I
really love, though the families make some different choices than we
do. Like the day we showed up having stopped at McDonald's for lunch,
and walked into a discussion about switching to the raw foods diet!
But I think what makes our group work is that, rather than being
judgmental, when I made a joking comment about our McDonald's trip,
everyone said, "Oh, Su, we don't want to make you uncomfortable at
all!" And it was true.

Su

Ann

Christine Nigro <imtired@...> wrote:

Then there is us. Going on playdates with meaty subs, regular chips,
caprisun drinks, and oreo cookies or even better yet with McDonald's
remnants on the floor of my car along with each of our traveling
gadgets be it a PSP, DS, iPod, or whatever. And somehow I always end up
feeling weird. I feel like I should hide when we eat so no one sees
that we are not eating organic or vegetarian fare or hide because my
kids are happy just sitting outside playing a video game even though
all the other kids are running around socializing.
******
Oh my gosh! I can SO relate to this! This past summer we were having 'park days' and everyone packed lunches. My kids would have meaty sandwiches, chips, oreos, fruit and veggies, not organic because I don't want to pay for organic along with juices and waters etc.... The other kids would gravitate around our table like vultures to see what we brought, and of course then whine to their mom that they want what we have. I was pretty brazen about the whole thing when someone said something to the effect of 'you know, some people don't want their kids to eat that way.' I said I understood and I respect their choice, but this is my choice for my family and that should be respected too. I pointed out that we had a wide variety of foods packed for the children to choose and THAT was my goal. She said something about that not being in their budget. I just basically shrugged my shoulders at this. That's not my fault, not my problem and nor should their budget become my child's
issue. One thing I always did though for the other kids, is I brought something to share, and they could have it as long as their mom said it was OK. My kids enjoyed sharing a treat with their friends, they seem to understand that not all children have the fredom they do.
I'm just so glad to hear we aren't alone in this..wish we could do lunch at the park:0)
BTW otherwise, I have a great group to hang out with lots of unschoolers even though it's not an 'unschooling group' per se. It's just that many of them aren't radical unschoolers so my kids often talk about how 'lucky' they are on the way home. Makes my day:0)
Ann

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nrskay

Su, I understand how you feel. I'm having problems with a friend
regarding new philosiphy on life (unschooling). She is a traditional
Christian homeschooler, like I was before unschooling, but now she is
not allowing her dd to hang out with my dd. They are the best of
friends.

Tonight my dd wanted to have a sleepover with this friend and then
she could go with us to park day tomorrow. Her dad said no.
Why? "Because I let my dd do whatever she wants, when she wants, go
to bed when she wants, sleep late and she doesn't do any school work"

My dd asked me if they think she is or will be stupid or something.
She really took it personally. I tried to explain to dd how this
decision of radical unschooling is our choice and their traditional
homeschooling is their choice and that we can't judge them like we
are being judged.

Last year was a hard year for her. She was attacked in April by a
man who came to put new carpet in our home. He was found guilty and
is serving 6 years. She has been battling depression since.

Thankfully we have met new friends at our Wens parkday, most are
unschoolers, but this friendship is very special to us. Feeling a
sense of lose right now.

Kay

Robyn Coburn

<<<< Last year was a hard year for her. She was attacked in April by a
man who came to put new carpet in our home. He was found guilty and
is serving 6 years. She has been battling depression since. >>>

Just to clarify do you mean your dd or the other mother?

Robyn L. Coburn

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nrskay

> <<<< Last year was a hard year for her. She was attacked in April
by a
> man who came to put new carpet in our home. He was found guilty and
> is serving 6 years. She has been battling depression since. >>>
>
> Just to clarify do you mean your dd or the other mother?
>
> Robyn L. Coburn


My dd was attacked by the carpet guy in our own home and I think you
know what kind of attacked I mean without saying. The guy gave me the
bill for the balance I went down our hallway, we live in a large ranch
style home, I went into the office to write the check. That is when
he did his horrible act on my little one (11 yo). But she came to me,
told me, I called the cops and they arrested him before he had the
chance to leave.

Kay

Christine Nigro

LoL, yup, I often try to bring something we can share even with our
super healthy eating friends =D I'm usually the person that brings
fruit. But then sometimes it backfires as some of our friends even
limit fruit sugar. If I have play dates at my house, I will try to have
some selections that all our guests can enjoy. It's mainly the larger
functions where I end up feeling out of place. And yup, my kids eat a
wide variety of foods. Sure they love snacking on chips and sweet stuff
but at the same time they love ethnic food and really enjoy trying new
flavors and dishes. So it's not that we eat crap all the time, we just
add some crap in with all the other good stuff lol!!

It would be awesome if we could ever hang out with a family who can
just eat anything and it not being a guilt trip or something. That
would be nice. You don't happen to live in NJ to do ya? My sons 8 and 6
also sing the praises of rad. unschooling especially after one beach
date we had this past summer where a friend of ours (the mom) packed a
bag full of curriculums!! One was a curriculum on manners/etiquette and
another was one on home ec?!? The whole time she talked about testing
and how well he scored and he's a genius...aaggh!! They are cool people
but the curriculum talk and her testing stories were kind of killing
the lovely beach day =(

We have two unschooling families that we like to be with but they live
an hour away so we don't see each other that often.

Nice to meet you Ann,
Christine


On Wednesday, January 11, 2006, at 08:56 AM,
[email protected] wrote:

> Message: 13
> Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 15:30:51 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ann <ann_mv05@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: too many toys, was commercialism
>
>
>
> ******
> Oh my gosh! I can SO relate to this! This past summer we were
> having 'park days' and everyone packed lunches. My kids would have
> meaty sandwiches, chips, oreos, fruit and veggies, not organic because
> I don't want to pay for organic along with juices and waters etc....
> The other kids would gravitate around our table like vultures to see
> what we brought, and of course then whine to their mom that they want
> what we have. I was pretty brazen about the whole thing when someone
> said something to the effect of 'you know, some people don't want
> their kids to eat that way.' I said I understood and I respect their
> choice, but this is my choice for my family and that should be
> respected too. I pointed out that we had a wide variety of foods
> packed for the children to choose and THAT was my goal. She said
> something about that not being in their budget. I just basically
> shrugged my shoulders at this. That's not my fault, not my problem
> and nor should their budget become my child's
> issue. One thing I always did though for the other kids, is I
> brought something to share, and they could have it as long as their
> mom said it was OK. My kids enjoyed sharing a treat with their
> friends, they seem to understand that not all children have the fredom
> they do.
> I'm just so glad to hear we aren't alone in this..wish we could do
> lunch at the park:0)
> BTW otherwise, I have a great group to hang out with lots of
> unschoolers even though it's not an 'unschooling group' per se. It's
> just that many of them aren't radical unschoolers so my kids often
> talk about how 'lucky' they are on the way home. Makes my day:0)
> Ann
>

Christine Nigro

Hi Su (nice to meet you by the way),

Um, yes, you're right. That's not like me...the controlling part. The
mom you described sounds like most of the parents on our block.
Controlling is just a nicer way to describe them though. We also get
that too, parents saying their kids pick up bad habits from mine. Like,
asking for a snack while dinner is being cooked--in my household, if
you are hungry before dinner is ready--then you are hungry so nibble on
something. Or find something to eat and if dinner is ready and you are
full, we'll save a plate for ya--it can be eaten the next day for lunch
or breakfast or whenever! If my kids are hungry AFTER dinner, we'll
help them find something to eat if they can't find on their own. Well
our friends/family do not believe in "giving in" and also tell their
kids that after dinner the kitchen is closed so don't even ask. Of
course they blame my kids because their kids want hand held systems and
their own video games or they want to be allowed to play when they want
for however long they need to.

Well have a good day =P Time to get my crew up and out--food shopping
day!!
christine

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 11, 2006, at 9:58 AM, Christine Nigro wrote:

> So it's not that we eat crap all the time, we just
> add some crap in with all the other good stuff lol!


Please don't refer to any food as crap. It impedes thought and
discussion.

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 11, 2006, at 10:07 AM, Christine Nigro wrote:

> Well
> our friends/family do not believe in "giving in" and also tell their
> kids that after dinner the kitchen is closed so don't even ask.


http://sandradodd.com/food

There are lots of things there you'll enjoy, and some you might be
able to slip to your friends and family sometime. <g>

On related matters from the thread:


Commercialism and abundance aren't at all the same thing. When
people say "too many toys" and commercialism at the same time, I
wonder what they're thinking. Holly got lots of gifts for Christmas,
but none were bought because of advertising. None were bought
because she really wanted what the other kids were talking about
wanting. We got her things we thought she her real self would
enjoy. I bought her some old keys (and cleaned the rust off of
them), and an old padlock with a pivoting keyhole cover, from a
catalog/internet company that sells mostly bathroom fixtures and
hardware. Holly likes keys.

She put a photo she took of that lock and some of the keys on her
myspace page, and got some commentaries back about it.

I got her a pair of pants from a thrift store, because the pattern of
them was very unusual and artistic.

Marty got her a copy of Adventures in Babysitting, because she likes
some of the actors, and likes the story (we had rented it on VHS
before and Marty got her a DVD. Marty got her a pocketknife too.

I got her a CD of The Four Seasons (not Vivaldi, but Franki-Valli-and-
the-) and one of Herman's Hermits.

She got more gifts than anyone else in our family (which is fine,
she's the youngest and easily pleased, so it's fun to give her things).

That was "too many toys" by some people's measure, I'm sure, but it
wasn't commercialism in any way. She has plenty. Without a feeling
of plenty, people are needy and unsettled and unlikely to explore
higher thoughts or to practice compassion. They'll be too busy
trying to get more things/attention/food/whatever so that they don't
feel needy.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/11/2006 12:17:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:

>>>Commercialism and abundance aren't at all the same thing. When
people say "too many toys" and commercialism at the same time, I
wonder what they're thinking. Holly got lots of gifts for Christmas,
but none were bought because of advertising. None were bought
because she really wanted what the other kids were talking about
wanting. <<<

I think that's a plus to homeschooling/unschooling, there's not as much
pressure to have whatever the latest fad is. Our kids buy according to what
REALLY interests them. Christmas was really different here this year, as we went
to Florida, only had a couple of gifts at home, but they each had a couple
of hundred dollars to spend on whatever they wanted. At first it felt like a
bit of a downer on Christmas, but all the kids said afterwards that they
liked being able to get their own stuff better. They had a blast.

I think it can also be a case of values or needs for each individual person.
I don't WANT a bunch of candy, flowers, perfume, jewelry, fancy bath
soaps...it's just not me, and often in the past it's what I ended up with. I
*honest to God* would rather have the kids make me something, or do something for
me (2 of the boys planted $1 Christmas trees outside and another made a goat
stand...my daughter helped me totally declutter the house (which was actually
a very fun time together.) In the past my husband has said that he doesn't
like wish lists, because gift giving is supposed to be a surprise, a gift.
But what's the point of buying stuff the kid doesn't want it and it will be
thrown away later? I can remember many moons ago only wanting to get my kids
educational type stuff...ugh.

People often not only make themselves feel guilty for buying too much, they
make their kids guilty for asking for what they really want.

Nancy B.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I would just like to point out that there may be good reasons for limits. For example, there are health issues in my family that *require* limits (or total restrictions) on some foods/sugars. Older kids can understand through discussions why certain things will put them in the hospital, but the younger ones simply don't understand at all and don't connect the food with the resulting illness. Allowing them to basically put themselves into the ICU for learning purposes would be dangerous.


*********************************
often try to bring something we can share even with our
super healthy eating friends =D I'm usually the person that brings
fruit. But then sometimes it backfires as some of our friends even
limit fruit sugar.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christine Nigro

There are lots of things there you'll enjoy, and some you might be
able to slip to your friends and family sometime. <g>

Sandra, I've already got your page on food bookmarked ;-P I refer to if
often! The excerpts of food stories are similar to ours. We often have
large containers of ice cream sitting in the freezer for months, same
goes for ice pops and other frozen treats. Sometimes a box can
disappear minutes after I get home from the market. Other times, they
just kind of sit there. Same for candy/chocolate. Same for soda
although, if the kids don't drink it, dh will chug it so soda doesn't
last long here. My kids don't drink water, neither does dh. I mostly
drink iced water but don't make my kids drink it. Every now and then
they'll opt for a bottle of cold water instead of juice but this is
rare. Dh never was a water drinker. I grew up having no choices over
food/drink. By the time I was a teen, I'd use my money (that I earned)
to buy soda and chips when I wasn't at home or if I were at a friends
house, I go nuts stuffing my face with all their yummy snacks and
bubbly beverages. Two weeks ago, my kids and I went to Stop N Shop. It
was a bad time to go food shopping because we were all starving, we
should have eaten lunch first. While I was waiting to order cold cuts,
my kids were asking me if they could go off and say hi to the lobsters.
Off they went, a few minutes later they came back all giggly and
excited jumping up and down. A woman nearby noticed and said "Ah! I bet
they discovered the candy bins and forgot about those lobsters!" My
oldest came to me and asked "Mommy, we see something we really really
want...only the one I want is kind of expensive, can we get it??" The
woman was so curious hanging on every word that came out of Aiden's
mouth. I asked what it was that's gotten them so excited and they start
doing a little dance and chant "SUSHI SUSHI..." The woman was shocked
and told me that she had never ever heard kids asking for SUSHI!! Aiden
wanted some kind of octopus box that was about $10, my other kids
wanted california rolls. "Okey dokey then, sushi it is!" So although
our family can enjoy fast food and frozen meals like Hot Pockets, they
also enjoy healthy or ethnic choices too.

As for commercialism and abundance: that is how I see it as well.
Everything we buy for our kids are things we know they would enjoy. If
it's within our budget, we don't see why we shouldn't buy these things.
Granted, we have had some fortunate times and have been able to buy our
kids toys or gadgets that are rather costly. Here is an example, our
soon to be 6yo has an iPod. People always tell us that it's ridiculous
that a little boy has one of these mp3 players. But what they don't see
is that this child loves music. He loves to make his own playlists on
iTunes and burn his own cd's or burn ones to give away. His being into
music and having an iPod and using iTunes has been helping him learn
some parts of reading. He'll call me into his room and tell me "I love
this song, this is the Ramones--I know that it starts with R and I know
the shape of the word so that's why I know it says Ramones. Oh and I
know all the bands that start with the word 'The'" He never asked for
an iPod because of all the commercials, he asked for one because he
took over his dad's iPod and realized how much he would enjoy having
his own. Now, these adults who balk at our purchases are amazed at how
Max knows his way around the music software and the menu on the
iPod...well how else would he get to learn this if he didn't have it
and have the freedom to use it!?!

Without a feeling of plenty, people are needy and unsettled and
unlikely to explore higher thoughts or to practice compassion. They'll
be too busy trying to get more things/attention/food/whatever so that
they don't feel needy.

I see this all time in the children of some friends and family. Have
seen it in myself growing up.

Christine



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Ann

Christine Nigro <imtired@...> wrote:
It would be awesome if we could ever hang out with a family who can
just eat anything and it not being a guilt trip or something.

****
Christine,

Now I really wish we could do it! I live in KS so a day at the beach is a HUGE treat for us. We just got back from an afternoon at the local rec center. It seems that their are definately two distinct camps in our group with regard to food. The ones who allow themselves to eat what they want (a minority in my group) and those who are strict vegan, vegetarian, only organic or something. I do like learning about health issues from these people though, just would never be willing to deprive myself to follow in their footsteps:0)Sometimes I think they wonder how on earth my children survive.:0) Now the whole group knows that I don't monitor my kids' eating so a spirit of tolerance pretty much abounds.
Nobody in our group brings curriculum, thankfully, but I am being asked to expain how unschooing works more and more often. I find it sort of hard to describe. What I really love is when they ask me about unschooing and then launch into a description of how they school at home. I have trouble even pretending to be interested. I find my eyes glazing over and I keep telling myself I need to be more patient with people who don't 'get it'. Thank goodness their are some other RU's in the group.

Ann


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Deb

--- In [email protected], Ann <ann_mv05@y...>
wrote:
> Nobody in our group brings curriculum, thankfully, but I am being
>asked to expain how unschooing works more and more often. I find it
>sort of hard to describe. Thank goodness their are some other
>RU's in the group.
>
> Ann
http://www.freechild.info/ Get a couple copies to pass around when
people ask. Rue's book is broken down into easily readable Q&A type
sections which makes it very un-intimidating reading. Which reminds
me, I loaned my copy out and now I forget where it is. I guess maybe
I'll just go ahead and get a couple more copies (and mark one "doesn't
leave the house" so that I at least have one copy handy).

--Deb

Christine Nigro

> What I really love is when they ask me about unschooing and then
> launch into a description of how they school at home. I have trouble
> even pretending to be interested. I find my eyes glazing over and I
> keep telling myself I need to be more patient with people who don't
> 'get it'. Thank goodness their are some other RU's in the group.
>
> Ann
>
>

I hope the above is in blue.

I like the advice someone gave about having copies on hand to
distribute to people who ask questions. Do you have the book she was
talking about? I just ordered a copy =D Looking forward to reading it!
There was a time when I was constantly being questioned about
unschooling. Family, friends, neighbors, strangers all wanted to know
if it's legal, if I have a degree in teaching, how do I know the kids
are learning, if you don't use a curriculum how do they learn, if you
don't teach how will they learn, etc. I had printed some info that I
got off of Sandra's site, Unschooling Undefined by Eric Anderson and
other tidbits of info from other sites. Well, a few people actually
decided to pass on taking a copy!! Some thought I was hysterical and
took it. Others thought I was trying to convert them. Maybe two people
emailed me after actually reading the copies and told me that they
appreciated the information and now have a different perspective on
what unschooling isn't. I haven't given out copies in about two years
probably because I haven't been questioned as frequently anymore.

It amazes me that RU's have other RU's in their group!! I wish. We are
the minority of minorities!! I cannot find any RU'ers to hang out with!!

christine

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 11, 2006, at 10:45 AM, CelticFrau@... wrote:

> In the past my husband has said that he doesn't
> like wish lists, because gift giving is supposed to be a surprise,
> a gift.
> But what's the point of buying stuff the kid doesn't want it and
> it will be
> thrown away later? I can remember many moons ago only wanting to
> get my kids
> educational type stuff...ugh.

==================

I don't like wish lists because I'm afraid I won't be able to get the
most desired thing there, and if you get EVERYthing on a list, the
whole surprise is gone.

I still only want to get my kids educational stuff, but my definition
of educational stuff has expanded to include every conceivable thing
except clothes (not counting historical clothes; Marty got a 19th C-
style shirt for Christmas because I know of his interest).

People who hang out with their kids all the time come to know what
they desire or would enjoy, and if they're willing to "get
gifts" (provide things) between holidays, then birthdays and
Christmas/Hanukkah/whatever are not the super-charged opportunities
for total failure then can be if parents make kids wait. "Maybe on
your birthday," "wait for Christmas" (for months and months).

My kids express desires all year, so their "wish list" is part of our
everyday conversations, I guess. But often when they're asked what
they want, they have no particular desires. That would be
interpretted by some of my meaner relatives (dead or alive) as "being
spoiled." Marty turns 17 this week and has no gift request. He
wants friends over and is afraid the word didn't get out well, so
I've worked on that some. I'll make a cake and food. We got him a
couple of small things and Holly found a good card. If he thinks of
something a month later that he wants, we won't say "Wait til
Christmas." Maybe that helps too, being willing (because of
unschooling, in part) to get them things throughout the year.

Part of living in a way that's respectful of children is seeing their
desires as needs. I talked with Pam Sorooshian about that the other
day, about people who say "He doesn't NEED that." Maybe he wants
it though, and one of the needs people have is to get some things
they want. So it is a "need." Defining need as only what sustains
life might work in dire situations, but unschooling isn't a dire
situation.


Sandra

Deb

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd
<Sandra@S...> wrote:
>>
> I don't like wish lists because I'm afraid I won't be able to get
>the
> most desired thing there, and if you get EVERYthing on a list,
>the
> whole surprise is gone.
Generally, we build a wish list to assist extended family (like my
parents who live 3 hrs away) in selecting gifts for gift occasions
(birthdays, holidays). It's sort of a range of items - things 'like'
this or that. For example, this year, 'piratey' things were popular
with DS - the specifics were all sorts of different things from a
pirate ship with a little cannon that shoots little plastic
cannonballs and has little pirates and such to a pirate themed
target shooting game - 4 metal/plastic cans with skull and
crossbones sit on a plastic log and you shoot at them with a laser
pirate pistol. If you hit the target, it makes a bullet
whine/ricochet/ping type sound and the can pops up in the air and
falls off the log. Pretty cool - and we found out (accidentally)
that the TV remote works almost as well to 'shoot' the cans.

> People who hang out with their kids all the time come to know
>what
> they desire or would enjoy, and if they're willing to "get
> gifts" (provide things) between holidays, then birthdays and
> Christmas/Hanukkah/whatever are not the super-charged
>opportunities
> for total failure then can be if parents make kids wait. "Maybe
>on
> your birthday," "wait for Christmas" (for months and months).
>
> My kids express desires all year, so their "wish list" is part of
>our
> everyday conversations, I guess.
Yup. That's something that is really important to DH - being able to
just go out and get something when it's wanted (within typical
budgetary constraints and store hours and such). He got the 'wait
for your birthday/Christmas/' or 'earn it - do chores, get high
grades, etc' for things he wanted as a kid. Part of his own healing
is being able to do for DS what he wished had been done for him.
And, for gift occasions, we tend to leave the wish lists for the
relatives and pick up some things that he may have mentioned at some
point but didn't anticipate getting.

--Deb

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/13/2006 8:54:44 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Sandra@... writes:

>>if they're willing to "get
gifts" (provide things) between holidays, then birthdays and
Christmas/Hanukkah/whatever are not the super-charged opportunities
for total failure then can be if parents make kids wait. "Maybe on
your birthday," "wait for Christmas" (for months and months).<<

We give our kids money, a fair amount, and I think that them being able to
buy their "wants and needs" anytime helps too.

But there is something special about getting a gift for no reason...it's
probably why I've never been able to buy stuff all year and hide it for
Christmas, I want to give it to them right away. I am always a last minute shopper.

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:49:16 -0700
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re:too many toys, was commercialism



On Jan 11, 2006, at 10:45 AM, CelticFrau@... wrote:

> In the past my husband has said that he doesn't
> like wish lists, because gift giving is supposed to be a surprise,
> a gift.
> But what's the point of buying stuff the kid doesn't want it and
> it will be
> thrown away later? I can remember many moons ago only wanting to
> get my kids
> educational type stuff...ugh.

==================

I don't like wish lists because I'm afraid I won't be able to get the
most desired thing there, and if you get EVERYthing on a list, the
whole surprise is gone.

I still only want to get my kids educational stuff, but my definition
of educational stuff has expanded to include every conceivable thing
except clothes (not counting historical clothes; Marty got a 19th C-
style shirt for Christmas because I know of his interest).

People who hang out with their kids all the time come to know what
they desire or would enjoy, and if they're willing to "get
gifts" (provide things) between holidays, then birthdays and
Christmas/Hanukkah/whatever are not the super-charged opportunities
for total failure then can be if parents make kids wait. "Maybe on
your birthday," "wait for Christmas" (for months and months).

My kids express desires all year, so their "wish list" is part of our
everyday conversations, I guess. But often when they're asked what
they want, they have no particular desires. That would be
interpretted by some of my meaner relatives (dead or alive) as "being
spoiled." Marty turns 17 this week and has no gift request. He
wants friends over and is afraid the word didn't get out well, so
I've worked on that some. I'll make a cake and food. We got him a
couple of small things and Holly found a good card. If he thinks of
something a month later that he wants, we won't say "Wait til
Christmas." Maybe that helps too, being willing (because of
unschooling, in part) to get them things throughout the year.

Part of living in a way that's respectful of children is seeing their
desires as needs. I talked with Pam Sorooshian about that the other
day, about people who say "He doesn't NEED that." Maybe he wants
it though, and one of the needs people have is to get some things
they want. So it is a "need." Defining need as only what sustains
life might work in dire situations, but unschooling isn't a dire
situation.


Sandra



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>People who hang out with their kids all the time come to know what
they desire or would enjoy, and if they're willing to "get
gifts" (provide things) between holidays, then birthdays and
Christmas/Hanukkah/whatever are not the super-charged opportunities
for total failure then can be if parents make kids wait. "Maybe on
your birthday," "wait for Christmas" (for months and months).
<<

I hang out with my kid all the time and I know what he desires and enjoys and he gets what he needs and desires even when it's not xmas or birthday, and we still use wish lists.

I might say on occasion in the week before his birthday or xmas that I can't buy what he's looking at in the catalog right now because it's too close to his birthday. He knows when I've already done some shopping for him and he understands.

I have a hard time getting my kids and husband to even MAKE wish lists though. They all know they can have anything they want within the boundaries that they know our family has. They don't have big dreams, but on the wish lists I encourage them to dream really big and really small. I do the same on mine. We all kind of operate on the idea that all of us say we "want" things idly sometimes, but lots of times we just think it's cool and don't care if we really have it or not.

So we use lists. They work for us. Not since the kids were really really little (and never with my always unschooled kid) did anybody get disappointed that they didn't get everything they put on the lists. The lists are usually long and the circles in the catalogs are many. It works.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Jan 11, 2006, at 3:15 PM, leobellalace@... wrote:

> I would just like to point out that there may be good reasons for
> limits.

----------------

Okay.
There are good reasons for some people to go to school. We all know
that.

-=-Allowing them to basically put themselves into the ICU for
learning purposes would be dangerous.-=-

Yes, that's true.

-=-Older kids can understand through discussions why certain things
will put them in the hospital, but the younger ones simply don't
understand at all and don't connect the food with the resulting
illness. -=-

Well then you keep those foods and those kids separate.

But in cases in which there's not life-threatening need, parents very
often cause future life-threat by arbitrary and punitive and baseless
and superstitious limits for the sale of control and power. And
THAT doesn't help people learn about food or themselves.

If a child has a life-threatening condition, maybe going to park
groups is too dangerous a situation.

Just because there are sometimes good reasons doesn't mean all
reasons are good.

Sandra