Ren Allen

"I had an option that some may not have the luxury of to choose not
to work and made what I feel is the better choice. I knew I
couldn't give 100% to being a parent if I wasn't there to do it. "

While I understand what you're saying, and I am a BIG advocate of
parents being with their children, some of us feel that a career
track AND being a parent is the best choice.

Granted, my career is extremely flexible (I wouldn't want to work if
I couldn't make family life the center), I work short hours and make
good money, and mostly work the hours I want, but I CHOOSE to work.

I feel that my work has been a positive thing in all of our lives.
My children have benefited, it's been a shared interest with Sierra
and I get to do something I'm passionate about. I also get to meet
some really interesting people and dip my toe into many different
worlds.

I DO feel I give 100% to being a parent because I am really THERE
when I'm with my kids. The times I'm gone, they have Dad and I know
they're not only safe, but having a good time for the most part. He
isn't as big into messy stuff, but they know this and end up
watching movies with him, or wrestling or playing games. There have
been only a few times over the last few years that I really felt I
was gone more than I wanted to be. And it was short lived (for a
week, or a day).
I CHOOSE to be a working parent, and I feel it's a good choice for
my family.

Ren

Betsy Hill

I'm borrowing something PamS wrote on our California list:

**

I wanted to add something - especially since you were really feeling
so awful about this --- there is NO academic subject that is
important enough to risk harming a parent-child relationship. NOTHING
is more important than your relationship. There is no work - school
work, housework, yard work, or anything else, that is more important
than your relationship. ALWAYS put that first.**

I want to say "Amen" and share a bad example.

At my mom's yesterday we were looking at a birthday card that my son selected (and I sent) for her birthday last week. It had the very sweet message "I know three things about the earth. 1) It's round, 2) The earth revolves around it and 3) You are the best thing on it." (Awwww..... I thought it was adorable that he picked something with such a heartfelt message for her.)

I was trying to emphasize to her that he personally selected this card to express his feelings for her. She managed not to hear me and to *complain about his handwriting* instead. It makes me want to holler.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/24/2005 9:34:35 PM Central Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

I was trying to emphasize to her that he personally selected this card to
express his feelings for her. She managed not to hear me and to *complain
about his handwriting* instead. It makes me want to holler.





~~~

I dunno...I probably would have hollered at her. "MOM, LOOK, HE PICKED IT
OUT JUST FOR YOU AND IT SAYS SOMETHING NICE! Forget about the handwriting."

But I'm just that way. I hope your son didn't hear her say something like
that.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/05 6:03:47 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:


> -=-I dunno...I probably would have hollered at her.  "MOM, LOOK, HE  PICKED
> IT
> OUT JUST FOR YOU AND IT SAYS SOMETHING NICE!  Forget about the 
> handwriting."-=-
>

I probably would too. Her handwriting's probably great, but she's tacky.
And that negated the message in the card. I might've turned the card over
and read the price aloud and made sigh-and-cluck noise about how much I paid to
be insulted by someone who might've been grateful instead.

And the next birthday or whatever: no card.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heather Woodward

I think the difference with your example Ren, is that you or their Dad (or
it could be anyone that they really like...grandma, etc) is with them while
you are working. This is far different than a daycare they hate - or school
then after school care, where you only see them for 2-3 hours per night
while trying to make them do homework and get into bed for the next school
day

We watched this happen with my son's friend. It broke my heart one day, as
he was crying his heart out and his mother was literally pushing him onto
the bus. ( He is in 1st grade) She has since, took a leave of absence from
her very well paying job - with lots of travel. (Her husband travels a lot
with his job too). You can tell that he is happier - I think just having her
around and being able to go home any time he likes becasue she is home helps
a lot.

The difference is, if you were to see that working affected your children
negatively you would probably find another way. There are certainly lots of
things Mom's can do and still be with their children - especially working
shorter/smarter ;-)

Heather

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ren Allen" <starsuncloud@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 4:51 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] working parents; was missing unschooled
teen


> "I had an option that some may not have the luxury of to choose not
> to work and made what I feel is the better choice. I knew I
> couldn't give 100% to being a parent if I wasn't there to do it. "
>
> While I understand what you're saying, and I am a BIG advocate of
> parents being with their children, some of us feel that a career
> track AND being a parent is the best choice.
>
> Granted, my career is extremely flexible (I wouldn't want to work if
> I couldn't make family life the center), I work short hours and make
> good money, and mostly work the hours I want, but I CHOOSE to work.
>
> I feel that my work has been a positive thing in all of our lives.
> My children have benefited, it's been a shared interest with Sierra
> and I get to do something I'm passionate about. I also get to meet
> some really interesting people and dip my toe into many different
> worlds.
>
> I DO feel I give 100% to being a parent because I am really THERE
> when I'm with my kids. The times I'm gone, they have Dad and I know
> they're not only safe, but having a good time for the most part. He
> isn't as big into messy stuff, but they know this and end up
> watching movies with him, or wrestling or playing games. There have
> been only a few times over the last few years that I really felt I
> was gone more than I wanted to be. And it was short lived (for a
> week, or a day).
> I CHOOSE to be a working parent, and I feel it's a good choice for
> my family.
>
> Ren
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

janddplus5

> While I understand what you're saying, and I am a BIG advocate of
> parents being with their children, some of us feel that a career
> track AND being a parent is the best choice.
>
> Granted, my career is extremely flexible (I wouldn't want to work
if
> I couldn't make family life the center), I work short hours and
make
> good money, and mostly work the hours I want, but I CHOOSE to work.
>
> I feel that my work has been a positive thing in all of our lives.
> My children have benefited, it's been a shared interest with
Sierra
> and I get to do something I'm passionate about. I also get to meet
> some really interesting people and dip my toe into many different
> worlds.
>
> I DO feel I give 100% to being a parent because I am really THERE
> when I'm with my kids. The times I'm gone, they have Dad and I
know
> they're not only safe, but having a good time for the most part.
He
> isn't as big into messy stuff, but they know this and end up
> watching movies with him, or wrestling or playing games. There
have
> been only a few times over the last few years that I really felt I
> was gone more than I wanted to be. And it was short lived (for a
> week, or a day).
> I CHOOSE to be a working parent, and I feel it's a good choice for
> my family.
>
> Ren
>
******

I just wanted to respond to this. I think that if you can have a
career and still be all you want to be to your kids and all they
need you to be that it is wonderful. It is probably very rewarding
all the way around. If you have family that you trust and will
respect your ideas for your children and can help out with the
children that is even better.

I don't have any famiy around and no friends close enough to even
help out occasionally. We are military and move appx. every 2.5
years. But even if I did have all the help in the world I still
don't think I would choose to work, because I feel that I would not
be able to physically or mentally make myself available to my kids
in the ways that I want to. I have physical limitations now that
drive me crazy <G>

I think that no matter how a person chooses to live their life that
as long as everyone is happy and gaining what they want out of that
life then it is great. I choose my life as it is because it gives
me and my family what we all want. And my own little world is
joyous! I do have to say my own little world though, because my
extended family is pretty crappy. But I try to protect my kids from
their rudeness and hatefulness.

I look at how my father was as my parent and I try to protect my
kids from that kind of life. His wife is just plain wicked! She is
the kind of person that is really mean to you in private but just
fondles all over you in front of others. My kids can't stand her.
I don't know why I even considered going. We should have stayed
home and we would have enjoyed each other.

Anyway our visit with family this holiday pretty much sucked and
left me feeling homicidal<G> and never wanting to visit again and I
mean that not wanting to ever visit again part most sincerely. How
sad...

Dana, who I guess really needed to rant about our lousy visit with
family...should have been wonderful! Oh, well...

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/05 8:52:45 AM, janddplus5@... writes:

> She is
> the kind of person that is really mean to you in private but just
> fondles all over you in front of others. 
>
That kind of behavior scares me. It reminds me of sexual abuse and of
blackmail and other really evil things. And it's why I decided and stated years
ago that I wouldn't cover for anyone who does that. It happened quite a bit
in a club I was involved in, it's happened with a playgroup I was in years
back, and it's happened around lists like this one, that someone will write
something all sugary in public, but then be threatening and insulting, snarky and
sarcastic directly TO people in private. If people do that in one context,
I'm guessing they do it in many. The worst case I'm thinking of is a man who
threatened a couple of women with physical violence and then said nice things
about them in writing. I think his hope was that the original threats would
be kept secret, but they weren't. I got written statements and made them
known to him and some others who could keep an eye on him. Almost every one of
those other men knew of at least one woman who had complained. But if each
complaint is kept quiet, there can be dozens and the person has no reason to
stop.

The guy a couple of weeks ago who came here all a-rant about unschooling
started off sweet and neutral, but was writing to people on the side saying things
that just weren't nice at all. I think he wrote to at least a dozen people.

So about that stepmother... Maybe start documenting some of the statements
and put them in writing to her and your dad. I don't mean in a big
collection blitz, but just maybe one at a time as they unfold, write a note back, and
say "I was uncomfortable when you said [whatever], please don't do that." And
when she is "trained" to trust that you will NOT keep it secret she might
quit. Or she'll get worse, and that should all be documented too. Because if
she's gotten this far in life and people haven't nailed her for it, she might
continue in the same vein with your children for thirty years.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/26/05 8:52:45 AM, janddplus5@b... writes:
>
> > She is
> > the kind of person that is really mean to you in private but just
> > fondles all over you in front of others. 
> >
> That kind of behavior scares me. It reminds me of sexual abuse
and of
> blackmail and other really evil things. And it's why I decided
and stated years
> ago that I wouldn't cover for anyone who does that. It happened
quite a bit
> in a club I was involved in, it's happened with a playgroup I was
in years
> back, and it's happened around lists like this one, that someone
will write
> something all sugary in public, but then be threatening and
insulting, snarky and
> sarcastic directly TO people in private. If people do that in
one context,
> I'm guessing they do it in many. The worst case I'm thinking of
is a man who
> threatened a couple of women with physical violence and then said
nice things
> about them in writing. I think his hope was that the original
threats would
> be kept secret, but they weren't. I got written statements and
made them
> known to him and some others who could keep an eye on him.
Almost every one of
> those other men knew of at least one woman who had complained.
But if each
> complaint is kept quiet, there can be dozens and the person has no
reason to
> stop.
>

****

I had left out some of our visit simply because I didn't feel up to
writing about it. However, Sandra you are more right than you could
ever know about these behaviors. I was raised in a sexually abusive
situation and lived with my stepfather who was exactly like this.
Therefor most people never believed my stories and I lived in that
situation with no help until I turned 16 and I ran away and never
went back.

As far as my stepmother, she is a 64 year old drunk. I have never
seen her quite as bad as I did this Thursday. My father had to
carry her to bed because she was so trashed. She almost lit her
face and hair on fire trying to light a cigarette. Then she got up
from bed because she said the t.v. was too loud and my kids were
bothering her.

My father immediately jumped up and ran for her before she fell over
on one of my kids (it happened really fast)who were laying on an air
mattress in the living room. Then she proceeded to fight with him
over the remote. It was just awful.

Before she even got drunk she was really nasty to my kids. She was
pissed at me for not forcing them to go to bed. At my house there
really isn't a bedtime rule and so they are not used to being forced
to go to sleep. It's not like they weren't laying down and they
weren't talking loud or bothering anyone. She told them that it was
adult time and they needed to go to bed. Whatever!!!

My 6 year old Franki, who my s-mother particularly picked on while
were there wanted to leave in the middle of the night. I packed up
yesterday morning and can't imagine ever going back. Why?, it's not
like any of us enjoyed our visit. All my children detest her and I
don't blame them.

After all the mean and nasty things she said to Franki, she wanted
her to give her a kiss and told her how much she loves her.
Bullshit!!! I didn't make her kiss her -- I wouldn't have kissed
her big fat drunk lips YUCK!!! Besides I felt it was just a way to
manipulate my child. Treat her like crap and then tell her how much
she means to you!?!

The whole visit sucked and I have no intentions of repeating it. No
one protected me from my life of horror...but I will not ever
intentionally place my children in a position for them to be
physically or mentally (which is just as bad in my book). She made
a choice to behave that way, my father made a choice to let it
happen, I am making a choice to never let it happen again.

I am just upset with myself that I even thought that maybe this time
things would be different. She has said some pretty rude things in
the past and I have tried to fanagle situations so that my kids are
never alone with my parents. Well even though that has been
successful, she has now taken to behaving this way even in front of
my husband and children. NO MORE for my kids...no big loss for them
they never liked her anyway cause she always yelled at them about
everything. They couldn't ever do anything right! No more grief
for me or my husband either.

So much more but too hard to write...

Dana

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/05 12:49:00 PM, janddplus5@... writes:


> -=-Before she even got drunk she was really nasty to my kids.  She was
> pissed at me for not forcing them to go to bed.  At my house there
> really isn't a bedtime rule and so they are not used to being forced
> to go to sleep.  It's not like they weren't laying down and they
> weren't talking loud or bothering anyone.  She told them that it was
> adult time and they needed to go to bed.  Whatever!!!-=-
>

Still, at other people's houses there probably is bedtime, and they should
respect that.

-=-
My 6 year old Franki, who my s-mother particularly picked on while
were there wanted to leave in the middle of the night. -=-

I think leaving in the middle of the night is an extremely valuable tactic.


When my sister stopped drinking it was because my mom (who had been sober for
a year or so of nine years eventually sobriety when this happened) and Kirby
and I packed up and left aroung 10:00, I think, when we had been planning to
spend the night. Too many insults, too much drinking, and I didn't want
Kirby around it. He was about two years old. We bailed. I wrote a long
letter. <g> (I've written my sister those two serious letters and no more, lest
it seem I do it all the time!) Both she and her husband quit drinking after
that. I was stunned. Didn't expect THAT to happen. (They didn't totally
stop using drugs, but I'd rather deal with drug users than drunks ANYtime.)

-=-After all the mean and nasty things she said to Franki, she wanted
her to give her a kiss and told her how much she loves her. 
Bullshit!!!  I didn't make her kiss her -- I wouldn't have kissed
her big fat drunk lips YUCK!!!-=-

Well in slight defense of drunks, she probably has NO recollection of having
been mean at all.
That doesn't make them less dangerous or hurtful, it just doesn't do a lot of
good to expect them to be reasonable or to feel remorse.


-=- She made
a choice to behave that way, my father made a choice to let it
happen, I am making a choice to never let it happen again.-=-

That sounds healthy. Maybe you can figure out ways to get with your dad
when she's not around.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Have a Nice Day!

***I think leaving in the middle of the night is an extremely valuable tactic. ***

And not just in a family situation either. There are other situations that can be abusive too.

Over the summer I was a camp nurse in another state. There was only one other nurse there and she had been there for a couple of weeks before me.

At first things seemed ok, but after the first week it became apparent that all was not right with her. And there were others there that knew her (they were the ones who encouraged her to come and take the job) and would hint to me that she was taking advantage of me. That in and of itself didn't bother me though. I can do anything for 2 weeks. I had 2 days off/week and I was getting paid. Thats the best camp situation I've ever had!! I didn't mind if she felt the need to take advantage. She'd been the sole nurse for a couple of weeks before I got there, so I gave her the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Unfortunately it went way beyond that. She was very lax and told me she signed meds off whether she gave them or not (these are psychotropic drugs and/or controlled substances like Ritalin). She wasn't "withholding meds" for any noble purpose. She was either just sloppy in her work or she was skimming the meds for herself.

She also told me she was using expensive medication from a counselor to give to her daughter because she "couldn't afford" to take her daughter to the doctor. But she never told the counselor about it or asked if it was ok.

She would tell me that both of us could take off the same day and let the nurse practitioner handle things the two days that the np was there. It didn't feel right but she'd been there longer than me so I said ok the first time, and asked her to call the NP the second time to make sure it was ok.

And then one night she got nasty with me because I had correctly diagnosed a child with pneumonia (sent him to the doctor and it was confirmed) after she insisted she listens to lungs all the time and that his lungs were clear. Later that evening she got nasty again when I gave her daughter a higher than usual dose of tylenol (it was a high dose, but one time wouldn't hurt anything).

It was just a gut feeling, but over the years my gut instincts have evolved to be very accurate. I went to the director and told her what was going on...all of it. She mentioned she thought it was odd that we were both taking the same days off and leaving the np to work alone and I explained that I felt like I was being "set up" to take some sort of fall for something.

The director wanted me to stay but I just knew that something really really bad would happen if I did. This nurse kept her bedroom door locked (I couldn't lock mine). And she said things to me that indicated that she had gone through my personal belongings. This along with all of the above set off red flags that my nursing license might be in jeopardy unless I left. And I was starting to feel like this woman was capable of just about anything.

The director wanted me to stay until morning but I could leave early if I wanted to. I started packing at 11:30 that night and left at 2am. Fortunately my kids were ready to leave too. They were fed up with some of the other aspects of the camp.

I don't regret leaving. I do truly regret that it didn't work out. I really enjoyed that camp, the counselors, and the kids. But there are other camps and other kids and other nurses who aren't whack jobs.

Kristen



----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 26, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: working parents; was missing unschooled teen



In a message dated 11/26/05 12:49:00 PM, janddplus5@... writes:


> -=-Before she even got drunk she was really nasty to my kids. She was
> pissed at me for not forcing them to go to bed. At my house there
> really isn't a bedtime rule and so they are not used to being forced
> to go to sleep. It's not like they weren't laying down and they
> weren't talking loud or bothering anyone. She told them that it was
> adult time and they needed to go to bed. Whatever!!!-=-
>

Still, at other people's houses there probably is bedtime, and they should
respect that.

-=-
My 6 year old Franki, who my s-mother particularly picked on while
were there wanted to leave in the middle of the night. -=-

I think leaving in the middle of the night is an extremely valuable tactic.


When my sister stopped drinking it was because my mom (who had been sober for
a year or so of nine years eventually sobriety when this happened) and Kirby
and I packed up and left aroung 10:00, I think, when we had been planning to
spend the night. Too many insults, too much drinking, and I didn't want
Kirby around it. He was about two years old. We bailed. I wrote a long
letter. <g> (I've written my sister those two serious letters and no more, lest
it seem I do it all the time!) Both she and her husband quit drinking after
that. I was stunned. Didn't expect THAT to happen. (They didn't totally
stop using drugs, but I'd rather deal with drug users than drunks ANYtime.)

-=-After all the mean and nasty things she said to Franki, she wanted
her to give her a kiss and told her how much she loves her.
Bullshit!!! I didn't make her kiss her -- I wouldn't have kissed
her big fat drunk lips YUCK!!!-=-

Well in slight defense of drunks, she probably has NO recollection of having
been mean at all.
That doesn't make them less dangerous or hurtful, it just doesn't do a lot of
good to expect them to be reasonable or to feel remorse.


-=- She made
a choice to behave that way, my father made a choice to let it
happen, I am making a choice to never let it happen again.-=-

That sounds healthy. Maybe you can figure out ways to get with your dad
when she's not around.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.

Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: <http://www.unschooling.info>



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

a.. Visit your group "UnschoolingDiscussion" on the web.

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/26/05 12:49:00 PM, janddplus5@b... writes:
>
>
> > -=-Before she even got drunk she was really nasty to my kids. 
She was
> > pissed at me for not forcing them to go to bed.  At my house
there
> > really isn't a bedtime rule and so they are not used to being
forced
> > to go to sleep.  It's not like they weren't laying down and they
> > weren't talking loud or bothering anyone.  She told them that it
was
> > adult time and they needed to go to bed.  Whatever!!!-=-
> >
>
> Still, at other people's houses there probably is bedtime, and
they should
> respect that.
>
> -=-

****The problem wasn't that the kids were running around or sitting
with us or any other such thing that she could have considered
bothersome. They were laying on the air mattress watching the t.v.
and it was around 10pm. Her problem was that she was looking for
something else to have a problem with. If they were sitting
somewhere being quiet then they would be accused of being too still
and too quiet...if they were running around they shouldn't do that
either. It just didn't matter what they did something about it was
wrong. I guess I have learned that you can't please someone who
wants to be miserable and thrives on trying to make others
unreasonable.

For instance, my parents belong to the clean plate club. We had a
talk with the children on the way down. We would help them to serve
their plates. Don't put anything on your plate you are not willing
to eat all of. If you want to try something you've not had before
then take a tiny bite sized portion in case you don't like it. You
can always go back for more if you find you like it.

The meal went okay for the most part and s-mother only made a couple
negative comments about things that the kids didn't put on their
plates. However, once again with Franki we had a problem. She
apparently (according to dh)kind of coerced Franki in to putting
green beans on her plate, along with fruit salad, mac and cheese and
turkey. Well, I walked over to the table just in time to hear her
tell Franki that she couldn't have any more candy that night.

I asked her if it was because Franki hadn't eaten the green beans
(with bacon and almonds in them) and she said yes that all she eats
is candy. I said that it wasn't true pointing that the green beans
were the only things she hadn't eaten and that the rest of her plate
was clean. Well that didn't go over well either. I ended up giving
Franki snacks out of the car when she got hungry later. All the
other kids also politely refused candy when offered to them. They
didn't like the way Franki was treated! I was proud of their little
boycott on their sister's behalf, especially of candy considering
that they really like candy!!!
****

> Well in slight defense of drunks, she probably has NO recollection
of having
> been mean at all.
> That doesn't make them less dangerous or hurtful, it just doesn't
do a lot of
> good to expect them to be reasonable or to feel remorse.

****
I have a hard time defending "her". Not all people who consume too
much alcohol are nasty(mean). Some aren't at all. Some just act
silly or stupid and some are nasty before they even take the first
drink and with her this is the case. The alcohol just compounds the
problem.
****
>
> -=- She made
> a choice to behave that way, my father made a choice to let it
> happen, I am making a choice to never let it happen again.-=-
>
> That sounds healthy. Maybe you can figure out ways to get with
your dad
> when she's not around.
>
> Sandra

****
There are gonna be many things that I can't protect my kids from,
some things I don't need to protect them from, but in cases like
this it is because I love them that I will not let another person(s)
treat them in ways that are disrespectful, hurtful and possibly even
manipulative and borderline abusive. My father is welcome to see my
children so long as he doesn't try to make them feel guilty over why
I won't let her visit them. The second he tries to insinuate that
my children somehow caused that and how awful it is for her when she
loves them so much, well then his name will go under hers in the no
visit list!!!
****

Dana

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/05 1:48:57 PM, janddplus5@... writes:


> For instance, my parents belong to the clean plate club.  We had a
> talk with the children on the way down.  We would help them to serve
> their plates. Don't put anything on your plate you are not willing
> to eat all of. 
>

Now I don't mind telling my kids "You need to go to sleep because grandma and
grandpa are going to sleep," but even then we'd leave the TV on for them if
they wanted it. But I have never let her tell them how much to eat. When
she told Marty once that he couldn't have dessert unless he finished, I just
slid mine over and told him he could have mine. (and then later I had his <g>)

Bedtime can be a condition of people staying at a house. I don't think
eating food should be a condition. But too many conditions creates the
condition of people leaving in the middle of the night. <g>

Sandra

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/26/05 1:48:57 PM, janddplus5@b... writes:
>
>
> > For instance, my parents belong to the clean plate club.  We had
a
> > talk with the children on the way down.  We would help them to
serve
> > their plates. Don't put anything on your plate you are not
willing
> > to eat all of. 
> >
>
> Now I don't mind telling my kids "You need to go to sleep because
grandma and
> grandpa are going to sleep," but even then we'd leave the TV on
for them if
> they wanted it. But I have never let her tell them how much to
eat. When
> she told Marty once that he couldn't have dessert unless he
finished, I just
> slid mine over and told him he could have mine. (and then later
I had his <g>)
>
> Bedtime can be a condition of people staying at a house. I
don't think
> eating food should be a condition. But too many conditions
creates the
> condition of people leaving in the middle of the night. <g>
>
> Sandra
>
****
The truly saddest part of this whole thing is that they only see the
kids about 2x a year. Who gives a damn if they eat all their food.
What ever happened to grandparents that were only in it for spoiling
the kids. My husband's mother spoils em rotten, spends all her time
with them when she's here cause she only sees them once a year. She
would never get mad at them for not eating something. If anything
she would probably sneak them a treat if I ever said no. <g>

Dh's mom has never threatened to spank my kids as s-mom did this
trip. Even if we spanked (we don't), where does a relative get off
thinking they have a right to or even to threaten? Don't people just
know where the line is without crossing it to figure out when to
back off?
****

Dana

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/26/05 2:25:49 PM, janddplus5@... writes:


>
> Dh's mom has never threatened to spank my kids as s-mom did this
> trip.  Even if we spanked (we don't), where does a relative get off
> thinking they have a right to or even to threaten?
>

Especially not a step-grandmother. That's QUITE removed, for my tastes.

-=-Don't people just
know where the line is without crossing it to figure out when to
back off?-=-

Interpersonal intellligence. Some have lots of it, some have little.
With drunks, no matter how much they had sober, they have less when they're
drunk.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<< I had left out some of our visit simply because I didn't feel up to
writing about it. >>>>

Writing about it is a good idea a lot of the time, whatever the "it" is -
even if no-one else ever reads it. That process has helped me often,
especially to see patterns that were not noticeable before.

Robyn L. Coburn

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 11/25/2005

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
>
> <<<< I had left out some of our visit simply because I didn't feel
up to
> writing about it. >>>>
>
> Writing about it is a good idea a lot of the time, whatever
the "it" is -
> even if no-one else ever reads it. That process has helped me
often,
> especially to see patterns that were not noticeable before.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn

****
I have since written about some of the awful visit on the list.
Sandra gave some really helpful feedback. I am at this time
considering her idea of writing things down from this incident. I
am trying to see the visit and each incident from their point of
view to try and understand why things happened but am struggling
with it a bit well more like a lot. My father called and tried to
feel me out the night I got home but I just wasn't emotionally ready
to talk to him about it. I didn't want to say things I would regret
and/or leave things that were important out of the conversation.

I think writing all of what I can remember down, how I felt and how
the children and my husband conveyed they felt is a very good idea.
So when it is discussed (probably soon) I will be less likely to
leave things out. It will probably help me to not be quite so
emotional and more matter of fact. I tend to get panicky and shakey
during confrontation then I forget half of what I wanted to say. I
just want everyone to be happy and it just doesn't seem to work out
that way.

My father is the type of person that when he gets angry with you he
holds a grudge and will go years without speaking to you. I watched
him go 7 years without speaking to my brother then things seemed to
resolve until he got mad about something else and now it has been
almost 5 years again since he spoke to my brother. Honestly I am not
so sure that it is my father, but his wife that causes these rifts
to be more than they should be. Who knows, regardless it is
ridiculous.

Life is too short to be pissed off and nasty to people over things
that are of no consequence to you. For instance who cares what my
kids eat as long as they are healthy. Is it something to freak out
over and cause a rift in a relationship (make your grandchildren
never want to see you)? I don't think so, but it seems to me that I
am the only person on my side of the family that feels this way.

My husbands family is very verbal. If you make them mad they tell
you and then it is over. Never holding grudges there!!! Just get
it out and go on, the relationships are great in that family.

Dana

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/27/05 8:46:46 AM, janddplus5@... writes:


>
> My father is the type of person that when he gets angry with you he
> holds a grudge and will go years without speaking to you. 
>

I have a friend who was angry with me for eight years once, because I said
something true but something about which he was in denial. Eight years later
he came around and said sorry, I was right. He got angry with me again a
year ago because he pressed me to edit something he had written, with me saying
no, can't; no, not a good time; really, no. But with flattery and pleading he
asked me to at least do one pass, PLEASE, because my opinion was so
important. I fell for it. Then some of my suggestions made him that dangerous
combination of embarrassed and frustrated, and now he's not speaking to me. I'm
just taking it in stride, because in a few years he'll probably be back if he
lives that long, and if not that's okay too. We've been friends (not counting
the eight years and the one year) since we were fourteen years old, and we're
both 52 now. I've had the benefit of his friendship and he of mine, and I
don't need it every day or every month or every year.

A parent can be alive or dead, helpful or a total financial and emotional
siphon, can be honest and wise or irritatingly clueless. Not having a really
great parent because she's dead is a burden many of my friends bear.
Unfortunately, many more have less great parents still bugging and costing them one
way or another, STILL not being respectful of them, STILL not trusting them.
You don't need that every day or every month or every year.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elainegh8

If there wasn't a bedtime for adults only a bedtime for children I
wouldn't go there in the first place. I doubt we'd go to stay in most
peoples houses though, too many illogical rules.

BWs Elaine

> Still, at other people's houses there probably is bedtime, and they
should
> respect that.

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 11/27/05 8:46:46 AM, janddplus5@b... writes:
>
>
> >
> > My father is the type of person that when he gets angry with you
he
> > holds a grudge and will go years without speaking to you. 
> >
>
> I have a friend who was angry with me for eight years once,
because I said
> something true but something about which he was in denial. Eight
years later
> he came around and said sorry, I was right. He got angry with
me again a
> year ago because he pressed me to edit something he had written,
with me saying
> no, can't; no, not a good time; really, no. But with flattery
and pleading he
> asked me to at least do one pass, PLEASE, because my opinion was
so
> important. I fell for it. Then some of my suggestions made him
that dangerous
> combination of embarrassed and frustrated, and now he's not
speaking to me. I'm
> just taking it in stride, because in a few years he'll probably be
back if he
> lives that long, and if not that's okay too. We've been friends
(not counting
> the eight years and the one year) since we were fourteen years
old, and we're
> both 52 now. I've had the benefit of his friendship and he of
mine, and I
> don't need it every day or every month or every year.
>
> A parent can be alive or dead, helpful or a total financial and
emotional
> siphon, can be honest and wise or irritatingly clueless. Not
having a really
> great parent because she's dead is a burden many of my friends
bear.
> Unfortunately, many more have less great parents still bugging and
costing them one
> way or another, STILL not being respectful of them, STILL not
trusting them.
> You don't need that every day or every month or every year.
>
> Sandra
****
Thank you for this reply Sandra,

I really do fit this description with the parents. My mother really
stunk when I was little but was amazing when I was older and now she
is gone. She died two months after my second child was born. I
miss her terribly. My father and his wife are a nightmare and I am
sick of tip toeing on eggshells to maintain a relationship that
pretty much sucks anyway. I don't know why I do it or maybe again I
do. If I am honest it is because I long for a closeness that will
never be there. My father will never be the Daddy I wanted and felt
I needed him to be. Now, I am 33 and not so needy anymore and I
guess that is why I am less likely to continue trying to nurture a
miserable relationship. If I have to live my life to his standards
and ideals in order to make him like/love me...it just ain't gonna
happen any more. It still makes me sad that I never will have that
closeness that children should have with their parents, but I guess
it is time to get over it and go on with my life and let my children
live in peace without placing the same eggshells in their lives. At
least through this life experience I am learning about how I DON'T
want to be.

Dana

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], "elainegh8"
<elainegh8@h...> wrote:
>
> If there wasn't a bedtime for adults only a bedtime for children I
> wouldn't go there in the first place. I doubt we'd go to stay in
most
> peoples houses though, too many illogical rules.
>
> BWs Elaine
>
> > Still, at other people's houses there probably is bedtime, and
they
> should
> > respect that.
>


****
Maybe there is something to that as well. Maybe we should try to
limit our overnight visiting to families who can more relate with
our philosophy of parenting. Then again we don't really visit much
with anyone due to our never being close to family and our family
size makes it difficult for some people. Some family and friends
have a hard time opening their doors to 7 people for an overnight.

I think it must be overwhelming to them to think of boarding/feeding
all of us. We offer food and stuff and bring pillows and sleeping
bags but then some take it in kind of an insulted way. We know we
are alot and that is why we offer. A dozen eggs sure don't go very
far and neither does a loaf of bread (VBG). We are probably better
getting a hotel, but sometimes it is not financially an option.
Hmmm food for thought and future planning.

Dana

[email protected]

-=-
> It still makes me sad that I never will have that
> closeness that children should have with their parents, but I guess
> it is time to get over it and go on with my life and let my children
> live in peace without placing the same eggshells in their lives.-=-
>

Another way to view this, maybe, is to give your children the closeness you
wish you had. When you decide how to be, you can have the thought that it
would have felt good to have someone do that for you when you were (whatever age
the child is). Don't do it with grumpy resentment, but with a soothing
thought for the child inside you. Then when you give your child a cookie, you're
giving your young self a cookie. When you hold her in your lap and rock
just a little longer, you're rocking your childhood self.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> -=-
> > It still makes me sad that I never will have that
> > closeness that children should have with their parents, but I
guess
> > it is time to get over it and go on with my life and let my
children
> > live in peace without placing the same eggshells in their lives.-
=-
> >
>
> Another way to view this, maybe, is to give your children the
closeness you
> wish you had. When you decide how to be, you can have the
thought that it
> would have felt good to have someone do that for you when you were
(whatever age
> the child is). Don't do it with grumpy resentment, but with a
soothing
> thought for the child inside you. Then when you give your child
a cookie, you're
> giving your young self a cookie. When you hold her in your lap
and rock
> just a little longer, you're rocking your childhood self.
>
> Sandra
****
This is wonderful advice. I do some of this now, but never looked
at it this way. I have friends who are in similar boats as me and I
am gonna share this advice with them. It seems like all the time I
am doing things with my kids because I think it is fun and most of
the time they think (whatever it is)it's fun too.

The reward I get is them snuggling with me because they love me and
are grateful each in their own way for all the things that are good
in their lives. The smiles on their faces are amazing. When I
think of how I missed out on my childhood it makes me sad, but I
know that I have the opportunity to do my best to make all my kids
dreams come true.

I have fun with my kids probably because they unknowingly allow me
to be a kid again. Not so much through them but with them. Also I
like the idea of doing things for my kids with the heart of giving
that happiness to myself at the same times.

This makes me cry...I am so sentimental. I am so sad for my
childhood, but I have the rest of my life ahead of me to be happy.
I am also learning that I don't need others approval to be happy.
Thanks so much Sandra for the time and thought you have put into
your responses to me. You are amazingly insightful. I never
actually intended for this topic to get this far, but I am thankful
now that it has.
Dana

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: janddplus5 janddplus5@...

At least through this life experience I am learning about how I DON'T
want to be.

-=-=-=-

That's a HUGE step in the right direction!

Sometimes it's really hard to know what TO DO, but knowing what NOT to do is a good first step!


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/27/05 11:56:59 AM, sandrewmama@... writes:


> I love this way of looking at it!  Now I want to figure a way to 
> extend this kind of treatment to my brother who
> suffers so as an adult for what he never had as a child -- 
> unconditional love.
>

Send him a card once in a while or some CDs. Don't focus on trying to fix
someone else's childhood. That will take away from your own children's.

Maybe write him letters and ask what he thinks about this or that so he has a
chance to exercise his intellect and wisdom and knows someone's on the other
end of the correspondence.

If you help him financially or administratively (if your mom can't) that's
nice, but don't attach your happiness to his, unless maybe after your kids are
much older.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

** I really do fit this description with the parents. My mother really
stunk when I was little but was amazing when I was older and now she
is gone. She died two months after my second child was born. I
miss her terribly. My father and his wife are a nightmare and I am
sick of tip toeing on eggshells to maintain a relationship that
pretty much sucks anyway. I don't know why I do it or maybe again I
do. If I am honest it is because I long for a closeness that will
never be there.**

Hi, Dana --

I've got a very similar family dyanmic (father, stepmother, alcohol,
icky visits, and guilt) going on in my life. Feel free to email me
privately if you want a sympathetic ear.

Betsy

janddplus5

--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
>
> ** I really do fit this description with the parents. My mother
really
> stunk when I was little but was amazing when I was older and now
she
> is gone. She died two months after my second child was born. I
> miss her terribly. My father and his wife are a nightmare and I am
> sick of tip toeing on eggshells to maintain a relationship that
> pretty much sucks anyway. I don't know why I do it or maybe again
I
> do. If I am honest it is because I long for a closeness that will
> never be there.**
>
> Hi, Dana --
>
> I've got a very similar family dyanmic (father, stepmother,
alcohol,
> icky visits, and guilt) going on in my life. Feel free to email
me
> privately if you want a sympathetic ear.
>
> Betsy
>****

Hi Betsy,

I would love to email you off here but don't see your email. Mine
is janddplus5@... if you want to email me first and I will
email back.
Dana

k

True. Some people who do that are in denial and don't realize how
they're coming off, but if you point out how it affects you, they may
wake up and realize "hey... ew, that's bad" but if they get more
aggressive it's important not to back off the truth. I remember as a
kid, we were taught to NEVER backsass adults and the truth never got
aired about the hidden uglies until well into the kid's adult lives.
:(
Then we compared notes and it's not surprising how similar all the
kids' experiences were with certain people.

Kathe



SandraDodd@... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/26/05 8:52:45 AM, janddplus5@...
writes:
>
>
>>She is
>>the kind of person that is really mean to you in private but just
>>fondles all over you in front of others.
>>
>
> That kind of behavior scares me. It reminds me of sexual abuse and
of
> blackmail and other really evil things. And it's why I decided and
stated years
> ago that I wouldn't cover for anyone who does that. It happened
quite a bit
> in a club I was involved in, it's happened with a playgroup I was in
years
> back, and it's happened around lists like this one, that someone will
write
> something all sugary in public, but then be threatening and
insulting, snarky and
> sarcastic directly TO people in private. If people do that in one
context,
> I'm guessing they do it in many. The worst case I'm thinking of is
a man who
> threatened a couple of women with physical violence and then said
nice things
> about them in writing. I think his hope was that the original
threats would
> be kept secret, but they weren't. I got written statements and made
them
> known to him and some others who could keep an eye on him. Almost
every one of
> those other men knew of at least one woman who had complained. But
if each
> complaint is kept quiet, there can be dozens and the person has no
reason to
> stop.
>
> The guy a couple of weeks ago who came here all a-rant about
unschooling
> started off sweet and neutral, but was writing to people on the side
saying things
> that just weren't nice at all. I think he wrote to at least a dozen
people.
>
> So about that stepmother... Maybe start documenting some of the
statements
> and put them in writing to her and your dad. I don't mean in a big
> collection blitz, but just maybe one at a time as they unfold, write
a not back, and
> say "I was uncomfortable when you said [whatever], please don't do
that." And
> when she is "trained" to trust that you will NOT keep it secret she
might
> quit. Or she'll get worse, and that should all be documented too.
Because if
> she's gotten this far in life and people haven't nailed her for it,
she might
> continue in the same vein with your children for thirty years.
>
> Sandra

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

jessi koons

test




---------------------------------
Yahoo! Shopping
Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

----Original Message-----
From: jessi koons indefinite_studies@...

test


-=-=-=-=-

No, thank you. We're unschoolers! <g>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]