OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
Rosalind Guder
Forwarded from another list...
I know this is off-topic, but if I were in this dad's position, I would want
to get the word out any way possible.
Rosalind
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ron Thompson <ron@...>
www.mike-thompson.org <http://www.mike-thompson.org>
Please keep an eye out for this missing homeschooled teenage boy. He is
possibly in Oregon or California. Last known destination was Portland
Oregon. He does not know Oregon, but does know Northern California. Much
of our family lives in Northern in California. Also if any of you
running web sites could post a link to this URL it would be greatly
appreciated. Mike has never run away before and is not street wise. He
has lived a somewhat sheltered life. We do not know why he ran away, he
told his girlfriend it was not about his family or her. His family and
friends are very worried about him.
Thank you
Mike's Dad
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know this is off-topic, but if I were in this dad's position, I would want
to get the word out any way possible.
Rosalind
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Ron Thompson <ron@...>
www.mike-thompson.org <http://www.mike-thompson.org>
Please keep an eye out for this missing homeschooled teenage boy. He is
possibly in Oregon or California. Last known destination was Portland
Oregon. He does not know Oregon, but does know Northern California. Much
of our family lives in Northern in California. Also if any of you
running web sites could post a link to this URL it would be greatly
appreciated. Mike has never run away before and is not street wise. He
has lived a somewhat sheltered life. We do not know why he ran away, he
told his girlfriend it was not about his family or her. His family and
friends are very worried about him.
Thank you
Mike's Dad
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I thought for a while about whether to let this announcement through to the
list, but after I read the dad's website, I thought I should.
This information can help people understand unschooling better, I think, or
at least to appreciate the value of the kind of parenting we have long promoted
on this list, even in the face of criticism and rejection.
On a day when this boy is missing, I was saying yes to Marty who wanted to go
and do something at 7:00 in the morning (I could have said no, but I said yes
because it wasn't going to hurt anyone for him to stand in line for 18 hours
to try to get an XBox 360). On a day when a 16 year old who has been
sheltered has run away, my 19 year old who has enjoyed huge amounts of freedom chose
to sit down (in the restaurant where he's employed) after his shift ended
with me, his sister, and another unschooling family and talk for nearly an hour,
even though there were cooler people, and friends his age, in the restaurant.
Children cannot choose to be with their families if they have no choice.
The relationships parents have with their children ARE important to the
children's growth, learning and safety. In not keeping my children sheltered, I
have children who voluntarily come home every night. A life of pressure,
nagging, pushing, guilt and sheltering has resulted in a teen who would rather
risk the dangers of traveling alone than to stay home. If running away seems
safer and freer than being at home, perhaps there should have been a safer,
freer way for that family to live.
If I knew where Michael Thompson was and that he was safe, I would just write
to his parents and tell them so. I'd probably send them some unschooling
links, and then get a hateful e-mail, and that would be that. I would not call
the sheriff and help them return them to his parents, who make him work and
make him feel giuilty that they gave up careers and professional success for
him.
Though I do feel for his parent's and their fears, and I hope he's well and
that he contacts them, I hope the situation can be resolved without him being
forced back into the same situation (or worse, as sometimes happens when
runaways return and are then grounded and shamed).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
list, but after I read the dad's website, I thought I should.
This information can help people understand unschooling better, I think, or
at least to appreciate the value of the kind of parenting we have long promoted
on this list, even in the face of criticism and rejection.
On a day when this boy is missing, I was saying yes to Marty who wanted to go
and do something at 7:00 in the morning (I could have said no, but I said yes
because it wasn't going to hurt anyone for him to stand in line for 18 hours
to try to get an XBox 360). On a day when a 16 year old who has been
sheltered has run away, my 19 year old who has enjoyed huge amounts of freedom chose
to sit down (in the restaurant where he's employed) after his shift ended
with me, his sister, and another unschooling family and talk for nearly an hour,
even though there were cooler people, and friends his age, in the restaurant.
Children cannot choose to be with their families if they have no choice.
The relationships parents have with their children ARE important to the
children's growth, learning and safety. In not keeping my children sheltered, I
have children who voluntarily come home every night. A life of pressure,
nagging, pushing, guilt and sheltering has resulted in a teen who would rather
risk the dangers of traveling alone than to stay home. If running away seems
safer and freer than being at home, perhaps there should have been a safer,
freer way for that family to live.
If I knew where Michael Thompson was and that he was safe, I would just write
to his parents and tell them so. I'd probably send them some unschooling
links, and then get a hateful e-mail, and that would be that. I would not call
the sheriff and help them return them to his parents, who make him work and
make him feel giuilty that they gave up careers and professional success for
him.
Though I do feel for his parent's and their fears, and I hope he's well and
that he contacts them, I hope the situation can be resolved without him being
forced back into the same situation (or worse, as sometimes happens when
runaways return and are then grounded and shamed).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> I would not callwork and
> the sheriff and help them return them to his parents, who make him
> make him feel giuilty that they gave up careers and professionalsuccess for
> him.Is there a part of the Dad's website that describes all of this? When
I go to the website I just see the information about him missing,
nothing about his family background (except for the sheltered
comment). Is there a link to something else?
Patti
Deb Lewis
***Is there a part of the Dad's website that describes all of this? ***
If you click on "letter from dad" (or something like that) in the upper
left hand corner you can read what the dad wrote to his son.
I found it very sad. Father acknowledges the son felt pressured and
nagged but then goes on justify that treatment and to say how much they
need him and how much they've given up for him.
Deb L
If you click on "letter from dad" (or something like that) in the upper
left hand corner you can read what the dad wrote to his son.
I found it very sad. Father acknowledges the son felt pressured and
nagged but then goes on justify that treatment and to say how much they
need him and how much they've given up for him.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/05 8:08:33 AM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>The letter from the dad.
> Is there a part of the Dad's website that describes all of this?
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barb Lundgren
Unschoolers:
I know this man personally who is looking for his son and I have just
learned firsthand that this is unfortunately true. Any help folks can offer
to find his son are greatly appreciated.
Barb Lundgren
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: SandraDodd@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:55 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
In a message dated 11/22/05 8:08:33 AM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know this man personally who is looking for his son and I have just
learned firsthand that this is unfortunately true. Any help folks can offer
to find his son are greatly appreciated.
Barb Lundgren
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: SandraDodd@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 12:55:55 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
In a message dated 11/22/05 8:08:33 AM, patti.schmidt2@... writes:
>The letter from the dad.
> Is there a part of the Dad's website that describes all of this?
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/2005 9:20:41 AM Central Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
. Father acknowledges the son felt pressured and
nagged but then goes on justify that treatment and to say how much they
need him and how much they've given up for him.
~~~
I see I'm not the only one who felt the urge to write the dad a letter....
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
. Father acknowledges the son felt pressured and
nagged but then goes on justify that treatment and to say how much they
need him and how much they've given up for him.
~~~
I see I'm not the only one who felt the urge to write the dad a letter....
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/05 11:34:27 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
good thing to set out on the table for a day or two at this list, though, to
remind people that children CAN make their own choices even if you don't "let
them." Parents think they can command their children's presence and attention
and service and gratitude, but it's not doable, and can backfire badly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I see I'm not the only one who felt the urge to write the dad a letter....That's the favor I'll do him. I'll leave him alone. I do think it's a
>
good thing to set out on the table for a day or two at this list, though, to
remind people that children CAN make their own choices even if you don't "let
them." Parents think they can command their children's presence and attention
and service and gratitude, but it's not doable, and can backfire badly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/05 12:22:42 PM, barb.lundgren@... writes:
find runaways in Seattle.
The fact that they know he's going to Seattle shows he's not a "missing
person," but now that authorities are alerted, he will probably hide and be that
much harder to find.
None of our readers in other states or in other countries or on other
continents can help find this boy. Those few in Washington probably won't happen on
him. If I were one of them and if I did I would offer him assistance and I
would suggest he let his parents know he was okay (or I would) but I would not
turn him in to the sheriff's department.
The post came and my option as the first moderator to come upon it was to let
it through or return it to the sender. I let it through because it seemed
cold not to, but in light of unschooling and what the father revealed on his
public website which he ASKED be shared, I feel some sympathy for the son.
This is a list clearly marked and intended for discussing unschooling, and
anything brought to the list is up for discussion in an unschooling light.
That's why the list exists.
-=-4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list.-=-
If one of my sons ran away and left enough information that I knew where he
was going, I wouldn't call the police at the other end and say "I want him
brought back." I would wait for him to contact me; I would leave information
with his friends about places he might be able to get help at his point of
destination. There's no reason, though, for my sons to run away and that's an
important part of this whole package of parenting and unschooling. It's THEIR
HOUSE too.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
That page needs some more work before it's announced to the list of folks who
want site news, but I think the ideas are important to share with any family
interested in having stronger relationships with their children.
Certainly there are millions and millions of parents who think these ideas
are just wrongheaded and that they have the right and duty to be harsh on their
kids, and to nag them and such. They DO have that right. But there are
consequences for people's choices. They have the right to choose other ways,
too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-I know this man personally who is looking for his son and I have justI didn't doubt that it was true, but it's not the purpose of this list to
> learned firsthand that this is unfortunately true.-=-
>
find runaways in Seattle.
The fact that they know he's going to Seattle shows he's not a "missing
person," but now that authorities are alerted, he will probably hide and be that
much harder to find.
None of our readers in other states or in other countries or on other
continents can help find this boy. Those few in Washington probably won't happen on
him. If I were one of them and if I did I would offer him assistance and I
would suggest he let his parents know he was okay (or I would) but I would not
turn him in to the sheriff's department.
The post came and my option as the first moderator to come upon it was to let
it through or return it to the sender. I let it through because it seemed
cold not to, but in light of unschooling and what the father revealed on his
public website which he ASKED be shared, I feel some sympathy for the son.
This is a list clearly marked and intended for discussing unschooling, and
anything brought to the list is up for discussion in an unschooling light.
That's why the list exists.
-=-4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list.-=-
If one of my sons ran away and left enough information that I knew where he
was going, I wouldn't call the police at the other end and say "I want him
brought back." I would wait for him to contact me; I would leave information
with his friends about places he might be able to get help at his point of
destination. There's no reason, though, for my sons to run away and that's an
important part of this whole package of parenting and unschooling. It's THEIR
HOUSE too.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
That page needs some more work before it's announced to the list of folks who
want site news, but I think the ideas are important to share with any family
interested in having stronger relationships with their children.
Certainly there are millions and millions of parents who think these ideas
are just wrongheaded and that they have the right and duty to be harsh on their
kids, and to nag them and such. They DO have that right. But there are
consequences for people's choices. They have the right to choose other ways,
too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/2005 1:42:05 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
If I were one of them and if I did I would offer him assistance and I
would suggest he let his parents know he was okay (or I would) but I would
not
turn him in to the sheriff's department.
~~~
Really? I wonder if you could be charged with holding him or something?
Fifteen is still a minor, and I wouldn't want to be in a position of being
charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor or maybe a trumped up
charge of holding him against his will or whatever. What if he wanted to
stay with me but didn't want me to call his parents? I would give him every
opportunity to make contact himself before I did so, and I'd have a deadline. I
have sympathy for the kid, but I also have sympathy for his parents, who
must be heartsick with worry.
My son's in Iraq and could be killed at any moment and I wouldn't know how
or where for a long time. I would want someone to tell me as soon as
possible, if they knew something about him that I wouldn't otherwise know. He'll be
home for good next month, and then I will finally exhale and won't be
mentioning it again, but for 18 months he has been in the forefront of my mind at
all times. He choose to go and I can email him and call his wife who talks or
IMs with him every day, and he's 23. The dad of this boy who ran away at 15
doesn't have those options, and no matter how mainstream his parenting was, I
think he deserves to know if someone knows where his son is.
But I agree that the letter points up some very sad misunderstandings on the
father's part, and I hope he is so relieved when he gets his son back that
he finally understands.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
If I were one of them and if I did I would offer him assistance and I
would suggest he let his parents know he was okay (or I would) but I would
not
turn him in to the sheriff's department.
~~~
Really? I wonder if you could be charged with holding him or something?
Fifteen is still a minor, and I wouldn't want to be in a position of being
charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor or maybe a trumped up
charge of holding him against his will or whatever. What if he wanted to
stay with me but didn't want me to call his parents? I would give him every
opportunity to make contact himself before I did so, and I'd have a deadline. I
have sympathy for the kid, but I also have sympathy for his parents, who
must be heartsick with worry.
My son's in Iraq and could be killed at any moment and I wouldn't know how
or where for a long time. I would want someone to tell me as soon as
possible, if they knew something about him that I wouldn't otherwise know. He'll be
home for good next month, and then I will finally exhale and won't be
mentioning it again, but for 18 months he has been in the forefront of my mind at
all times. He choose to go and I can email him and call his wife who talks or
IMs with him every day, and he's 23. The dad of this boy who ran away at 15
doesn't have those options, and no matter how mainstream his parenting was, I
think he deserves to know if someone knows where his son is.
But I agree that the letter points up some very sad misunderstandings on the
father's part, and I hope he is so relieved when he gets his son back that
he finally understands.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barb Lundgren
I don't agree that someone who reads this list couldn't find or help find
this boy. I first heard of this on this list and it has caused me to think
of the unschool friends I have in the northwest and email the information to
them, thinking it may be possible that their teens have heard of him and his
plight. I will make phone calls as well.
Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. I might simply
let the father know he was seen (but not say where) and that he is ok or has
a message for his family, or whatever the boy asked for. The fact that you
chose to let the announcement go through to your list in the first place
should now be followed up with a discussion, if one occurs.
I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of folks,
despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows us to
help and comfort one another. The fact that this boy may not have been an
unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.
Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home does not
mean that they never would, nor that other unschool kids wouldn't. Life is
too complex, with too many variables, to make predictions that involve
'never'. I too empathize with the son... but also with the parents. I
agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love, respect for
the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs. top-down
discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a family in
our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?
Barb Lundgren
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: SandraDodd@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:40:37 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
In a message dated 11/22/05 12:22:42 PM, barb.lundgren@... writes:
find runaways in Seattle.
The fact that they know he's going to Seattle shows he's not a "missing
person," but now that authorities are alerted, he will probably hide and be
that
much harder to find.
None of our readers in other states or in other countries or on other
continents can help find this boy. Those few in Washington probably won't
happen on
him. If I were one of them and if I did I would offer him assistance and I
would suggest he let his parents know he was okay (or I would) but I would
not
turn him in to the sheriff's department.
The post came and my option as the first moderator to come upon it was to
let
it through or return it to the sender. I let it through because it seemed
cold not to, but in light of unschooling and what the father revealed on his
public website which he ASKED be shared, I feel some sympathy for the son.
This is a list clearly marked and intended for discussing unschooling, and
anything brought to the list is up for discussion in an unschooling light.
That's why the list exists.
-=-4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list.-=-
If one of my sons ran away and left enough information that I knew where he
was going, I wouldn't call the police at the other end and say "I want him
brought back." I would wait for him to contact me; I would leave
information
with his friends about places he might be able to get help at his point of
destination. There's no reason, though, for my sons to run away and
that's an
important part of this whole package of parenting and unschooling. It's
THEIR
HOUSE too.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
That page needs some more work before it's announced to the list of folks
who
want site news, but I think the ideas are important to share with any family
interested in having stronger relationships with their children.
Certainly there are millions and millions of parents who think these ideas
are just wrongheaded and that they have the right and duty to be harsh on
their
kids, and to nag them and such. They DO have that right. But there are
consequences for people's choices. They have the right to choose other
ways,
too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
this boy. I first heard of this on this list and it has caused me to think
of the unschool friends I have in the northwest and email the information to
them, thinking it may be possible that their teens have heard of him and his
plight. I will make phone calls as well.
Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. I might simply
let the father know he was seen (but not say where) and that he is ok or has
a message for his family, or whatever the boy asked for. The fact that you
chose to let the announcement go through to your list in the first place
should now be followed up with a discussion, if one occurs.
I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of folks,
despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows us to
help and comfort one another. The fact that this boy may not have been an
unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.
Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home does not
mean that they never would, nor that other unschool kids wouldn't. Life is
too complex, with too many variables, to make predictions that involve
'never'. I too empathize with the son... but also with the parents. I
agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love, respect for
the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs. top-down
discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a family in
our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?
Barb Lundgren
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: SandraDodd@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 14:40:37 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
In a message dated 11/22/05 12:22:42 PM, barb.lundgren@... writes:
> -=-I know this man personally who is looking for his son and I have justI didn't doubt that it was true, but it's not the purpose of this list to
> learned firsthand that this is unfortunately true.-=-
>
find runaways in Seattle.
The fact that they know he's going to Seattle shows he's not a "missing
person," but now that authorities are alerted, he will probably hide and be
that
much harder to find.
None of our readers in other states or in other countries or on other
continents can help find this boy. Those few in Washington probably won't
happen on
him. If I were one of them and if I did I would offer him assistance and I
would suggest he let his parents know he was okay (or I would) but I would
not
turn him in to the sheriff's department.
The post came and my option as the first moderator to come upon it was to
let
it through or return it to the sender. I let it through because it seemed
cold not to, but in light of unschooling and what the father revealed on his
public website which he ASKED be shared, I feel some sympathy for the son.
This is a list clearly marked and intended for discussing unschooling, and
anything brought to the list is up for discussion in an unschooling light.
That's why the list exists.
-=-4. If you have a belief or practice that you don't want held up to public
examination, don't post it to the list.-=-
If one of my sons ran away and left enough information that I knew where he
was going, I wouldn't call the police at the other end and say "I want him
brought back." I would wait for him to contact me; I would leave
information
with his friends about places he might be able to get help at his point of
destination. There's no reason, though, for my sons to run away and
that's an
important part of this whole package of parenting and unschooling. It's
THEIR
HOUSE too.
http://sandradodd.com/rebellion
That page needs some more work before it's announced to the list of folks
who
want site news, but I think the ideas are important to share with any family
interested in having stronger relationships with their children.
Certainly there are millions and millions of parents who think these ideas
are just wrongheaded and that they have the right and duty to be harsh on
their
kids, and to nag them and such. They DO have that right. But there are
consequences for people's choices. They have the right to choose other
ways,
too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: tuckervill2@...
Really? I wonder if you could be charged with holding him or something?
--=-=-
We had a neighbor whom we told could come here any time she needed a safe place. Her father called one night and asked that we tell him when she was here. I refused, saying that she needed a safe place. His brother-in-law, the lawyer, got a restraining order against us.
She still came by. <g>
-=-=-=-
Fifteen is still a minor, and I wouldn't want to be in a position of being
charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor or maybe a trumped up
charge of holding him against his will or whatever. What if he wanted to
stay with me but didn't want me to call his parents? I would give him every
opportunity to make contact himself before I did so, and I'd have a deadline.
I have sympathy for the kid, but I also have sympathy for his parents, who
must be heartsick with worry.
-=-=-=-=-
But they made their bed. Seriously. They set up the adversarial relationship. I would also encourage him to let them know he was safe, but I wouldn't turn him in. Basically he's doing to them what's been done to him for 15 years. The tables have simply been turned.
I'd maybe suggest having the letter sent to a different state to be postmarked far away.
-=-=-=-
My son's in Iraq and could be killed at any moment and I wouldn't know how
or where for a long time. I would want someone to tell me as soon as
possible, if they knew something about him that I wouldn't otherwise know.
He'll be home for good next month, and then I will finally exhale and won't be
mentioning it again, but for 18 months he has been in the forefront of my mind
at all times. He choose to go and I can email him and call his wife who talks or
IMs with him every day, and he's 23.
-=-=-=-
I'm glad he'll be home soon! I can't imagine what you've been through.
-=-=-=-
The dad of this boy who ran away at 15
doesn't have those options, and no matter how mainstream his parenting was, I
think he deserves to know if someone knows where his son is.
-=-=-=-
I think it's kind to let him know the child is safe. The *child* obviously felt he was OUT of options. His parents did that.
-=-=-=-
But I agree that the letter points up some very sad misunderstandings on the
father's part, and I hope he is so relieved when he gets his son back that
he finally understands.
-=-=--=
Yeah---that would be nice. But I doubt it'll happen. The letter to his son is very telling. It's sad, and there's no way to go back and change what's happened. But telling the boy that they've sacrificed so much for him is pretty shitty. It would make *me* want to stay away forever.
We only get one chance to make our children's childhoods magical. To shame him into coming home??? Wouldn't work on me. I'd just be more resentful.
Barb, I hope that it all works out well and that he's safe and happy. Maybe give the dad a copy of Rue's book???
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: tuckervill2@...
Really? I wonder if you could be charged with holding him or something?
--=-=-
We had a neighbor whom we told could come here any time she needed a safe place. Her father called one night and asked that we tell him when she was here. I refused, saying that she needed a safe place. His brother-in-law, the lawyer, got a restraining order against us.
She still came by. <g>
-=-=-=-
Fifteen is still a minor, and I wouldn't want to be in a position of being
charged with contributing to the delinquency of a minor or maybe a trumped up
charge of holding him against his will or whatever. What if he wanted to
stay with me but didn't want me to call his parents? I would give him every
opportunity to make contact himself before I did so, and I'd have a deadline.
I have sympathy for the kid, but I also have sympathy for his parents, who
must be heartsick with worry.
-=-=-=-=-
But they made their bed. Seriously. They set up the adversarial relationship. I would also encourage him to let them know he was safe, but I wouldn't turn him in. Basically he's doing to them what's been done to him for 15 years. The tables have simply been turned.
I'd maybe suggest having the letter sent to a different state to be postmarked far away.
-=-=-=-
My son's in Iraq and could be killed at any moment and I wouldn't know how
or where for a long time. I would want someone to tell me as soon as
possible, if they knew something about him that I wouldn't otherwise know.
He'll be home for good next month, and then I will finally exhale and won't be
mentioning it again, but for 18 months he has been in the forefront of my mind
at all times. He choose to go and I can email him and call his wife who talks or
IMs with him every day, and he's 23.
-=-=-=-
I'm glad he'll be home soon! I can't imagine what you've been through.
-=-=-=-
The dad of this boy who ran away at 15
doesn't have those options, and no matter how mainstream his parenting was, I
think he deserves to know if someone knows where his son is.
-=-=-=-
I think it's kind to let him know the child is safe. The *child* obviously felt he was OUT of options. His parents did that.
-=-=-=-
But I agree that the letter points up some very sad misunderstandings on the
father's part, and I hope he is so relieved when he gets his son back that
he finally understands.
-=-=--=
Yeah---that would be nice. But I doubt it'll happen. The letter to his son is very telling. It's sad, and there's no way to go back and change what's happened. But telling the boy that they've sacrificed so much for him is pretty shitty. It would make *me* want to stay away forever.
We only get one chance to make our children's childhoods magical. To shame him into coming home??? Wouldn't work on me. I'd just be more resentful.
Barb, I hope that it all works out well and that he's safe and happy. Maybe give the dad a copy of Rue's book???
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/05 12:59:21 PM, tuckervill2@... writes:
-=-Really? I wonder if you could be charged with holding him or
something?-=-
Really. I wouldn't BE "holding him." There are hundreds of people whose
whereabouts I know. I'm not reponsible for them and I'm not holding them.
If I knew this boy's whereabouts I would reassure the parents without calling
the sheriff. (I don't suppose he's in Albuquerque and I don't know him, so
it's just a hypothetical point.)
-=- I would want someone to tell me as soon as
possible, if they knew something about him that I wouldn't otherwise
know. -=-
That's not the same as turning him in to authorities.
-=-he dad of this boy who ran away at 15
doesn't have those options, and no matter how mainstream his parenting was,
I
think he deserves to know if someone knows where his son is. -=-
Sure.
I never said I wouldn't tell them. I said plainly that I would contact his
dad.
-=-But I agree that the letter points up some very sad misunderstandings on
the
father's part, and I hope he is so relieved when he gets his son back that
he finally understands.-=-
I've not ever yet seen or heard of a case in which a runaway went home and
the parents gave him all the space and respect he needed. (Anyone here
have stories of parents really feeling in the wrong and changing their ways when
a runaway came home or was delivered by the sheriff?)
-=-
We had a neighbor whom we told could come here any time she needed a safe
place. Her father called one night and asked that we tell him when she was here.
I refused, saying that she needed a safe place. His brother-in-law, the
lawyer, got a restraining order against us.-=-
A restraining order saying you couldn't come near the girl!? I wonder that
he could do that on her behalf (as it were) without her consent. A
restraining order against the father, sure. Or the uncle.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-I would give him everyThen he would run away from you too, and would have been better off staying.
> opportunity to make contact himself before I did so, and I'd have a
> deadline. -=-
>
-=-Really? I wonder if you could be charged with holding him or
something?-=-
Really. I wouldn't BE "holding him." There are hundreds of people whose
whereabouts I know. I'm not reponsible for them and I'm not holding them.
If I knew this boy's whereabouts I would reassure the parents without calling
the sheriff. (I don't suppose he's in Albuquerque and I don't know him, so
it's just a hypothetical point.)
-=- I would want someone to tell me as soon as
possible, if they knew something about him that I wouldn't otherwise
know. -=-
That's not the same as turning him in to authorities.
-=-he dad of this boy who ran away at 15
doesn't have those options, and no matter how mainstream his parenting was,
I
think he deserves to know if someone knows where his son is. -=-
Sure.
I never said I wouldn't tell them. I said plainly that I would contact his
dad.
-=-But I agree that the letter points up some very sad misunderstandings on
the
father's part, and I hope he is so relieved when he gets his son back that
he finally understands.-=-
I've not ever yet seen or heard of a case in which a runaway went home and
the parents gave him all the space and respect he needed. (Anyone here
have stories of parents really feeling in the wrong and changing their ways when
a runaway came home or was delivered by the sheriff?)
-=-
We had a neighbor whom we told could come here any time she needed a safe
place. Her father called one night and asked that we tell him when she was here.
I refused, saying that she needed a safe place. His brother-in-law, the
lawyer, got a restraining order against us.-=-
A restraining order saying you couldn't come near the girl!? I wonder that
he could do that on her behalf (as it were) without her consent. A
restraining order against the father, sure. Or the uncle.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> -=-I don't agree that someone who reads this list couldn't find or helpThose in New Zealand, Australia, England, France and Canada won't.
> find
> this boy. -=-
>
He seems to be gone from Florida. Few other parts of the U.S. are affected
one way or another.
The list isn't for local discussion, and the runaway child of someone who's
not an unschooler is thrice removed from the list's purpose.
-=-Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. -=-
We'll, you've forwarded the father's request for people to turn him in, so
you might be contributing to that, as was I by letting the announcement through.
I hope he's not turned in, still.
-=-I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of folks,
despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows us to
help and comfort one another.-=-
It doesn't prevent those who want to help and comfort from doing so, but the
purpose of this list isn't "support" of the parents. It's the discussion
of the benefits of unschooling and how they play out in everyday life.
-=-The fact that this boy may not have been an
unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.-=-
That's fine for you. Each of us makes decisions in different ways. Five
hundred different angles on the idea of community still shouldn't keep this
list from discussing how parenting affects relationships.
-=-Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home does not
mean that they never would-=-
If they do or don't, it won't be because of what I wrote on this list, that's
for sure. They're 19, 16 and 14 and they haven't so much as slammed a door
in anger for years.
If I wanted to frustrate a child to the point of running away, I'm sure I
know how to do it. I've seen others do it my whole life. I wouldn't WANT to
do it, but if I snapped and wanted to, or wanted to win some big bet or
something I can only imagine... here's what I would do: I would attempt to force
the kid to do what I said, eat when and where and how I said (OF COURSE eat WHAT
I said), and stop eating when I said, and not snack between meals. I would
force the child to clean his room to my satisfaction and on my schedule. I
would force him to go to school even if he didn't want to, or just as good,
maybe I would force him to homeschool even though he wanted to go to school. I
would make him help me and then complain about the quality of his work. I
would give him very little money and never help him out financially, but make
him live within his allowance. I would tell him what to wear and how to wear
it. I'd make him be home and in bed at a certain time. I wouldn't let him
listen to music or watch TV to go to sleep, because that would be wasting my
electricity. I would make him fill out college applications, and then
complain about his handwriting. If I let him play video games at all, I would make
him sell his old system and put that money toward a new one. I wouldn't let
him watch R rated movies. If I let him drive the car I would charge him
by the mile and make him pay his own insurance and remind him frequently what a
big favor I was doing by not making him wait until he had enough to buy his
own car. When he turned 18, I would start charging him rent. Happy
birthday.
I doubt the family in question did al those things, but they probably did
some of them.
They're all things I've seen done by families I know or have known.
None of those families has kids happier than mine, nor relationships with
their kids as good as Keith and I have with ours.
-=-I
agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love, respect for
the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs. top-down
discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a family in
our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?-=-
I don't know about "unconditional love"--it's a concept often misused and
abused.
What is relevant about what the list supports is that this list doesn't exist
to help a family in "a broad homeschool community." Even it this were a
Washington State unschooling list, it wouldn't be the purpose of the list.
Support and help come in different ways. We're working through and honing
ideas and ways to express those ideas that have helped MANY families have
better relationships, more peace, more stability and security in their family
lives.
The woman whose husband and church made her homeschool against her will...
(yeah, which one?) , the one who drowned her kids. Was she part of our broad
homeschool community? The mom who killed kids with a rock (was she in Texas
too?) Did we owe her help and support? The family with all the adopted
kids they can't take care of (yeah, which one?) and so they left some in the
house and hungry (still doesn't narrow it down to one family...)--them too?
I have more in common with others who grew up in Northern New Mexico than I
have in common with the people in the paragraph above. I have more in common
with other folksinging guitar players, even those who are childless or send
their kids to school, than I will ever have in common with a family whose
children are dressed for school each morning by 8:00 and report to their in-house
schoolroom or kitchen table.
Joyce, one of the listowners, wrote this:
-=-Everyone who is interested in unschooling or finding out more about it is
welcome to join. But be aware that the list is for those who are seeking a
deeper understanding of unschooling, a more respectful relationship with their
children, to move out of their comfort zone to reach for something better. That
means, though we recognize how hard the journey is and how far people come to
just let go of one schoolish thing, this list can't offer on line support for
people who are pausing at some comfortable spot on their journey towards
unschooling. We are here to support those who are actively pushing beyond their
comfort zones.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:59 AM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
Sandra (and I) are in agreement. We wouldn't automatically "turn in"
a 16 year old who has left home. He could have really good reasons,
we just don't know. I would let parents know that I knew he was okay,
too.
I DID call a runaway kid's parents, once, because I read some of his
email and he appeared to be suicidal. I KNEW his parents and I knew
what the problem was - he was gay and he didn't think they could
accept that. HE was wrong - as hard as it was for them, I knew they'd
find a way because I knew they loved him through and through.
I called his dad and read him some of his son's email and told him
where he was. They got help for him and for themselves and they are
all doing fine, today. Dad and son have both thanked us.
But - in that case, I knew the child and the parents and I knew what
the problem was, exactly. And I was very certain that the son was
wrong about what his parents' reaction was going to be.
We don't know why this 16 year old has left home. We don't know what
his relationship with his parents is really like. We don't know much
of anything, except he isn't a young child and it isn't obvious to me
that a 16 year old young man should automatically be returned against
his will to parents he's run away from.
Barb, if you know them, them maybe you have some insight that the
rest of us do not have. That might make a difference in how you feel
about it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. INot sure what you're complaining about, Barb. Sounds like you and
> might simply
> let the father know he was seen (but not say where) and that he is
> ok or has
> a message for his family, or whatever the boy asked for. The fact
> that you
> chose to let the announcement go through to your list in the first
> place
> should now be followed up with a discussion, if one occurs.
>
> I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of
> folks,
> despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows
> us to
> help and comfort one another. The fact that this boy may not have
> been an
> unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.
>
> Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home
> does not
> mean that they never would, nor that other unschool kids wouldn't.
> Life is
> too complex, with too many variables, to make predictions that involve
> 'never'. I too empathize with the son... but also with the
> parents. I
> agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love,
> respect for
> the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs.
> top-down
> discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a
> family in
> our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?
Sandra (and I) are in agreement. We wouldn't automatically "turn in"
a 16 year old who has left home. He could have really good reasons,
we just don't know. I would let parents know that I knew he was okay,
too.
I DID call a runaway kid's parents, once, because I read some of his
email and he appeared to be suicidal. I KNEW his parents and I knew
what the problem was - he was gay and he didn't think they could
accept that. HE was wrong - as hard as it was for them, I knew they'd
find a way because I knew they loved him through and through.
I called his dad and read him some of his son's email and told him
where he was. They got help for him and for themselves and they are
all doing fine, today. Dad and son have both thanked us.
But - in that case, I knew the child and the parents and I knew what
the problem was, exactly. And I was very certain that the son was
wrong about what his parents' reaction was going to be.
We don't know why this 16 year old has left home. We don't know what
his relationship with his parents is really like. We don't know much
of anything, except he isn't a young child and it isn't obvious to me
that a 16 year old young man should automatically be returned against
his will to parents he's run away from.
Barb, if you know them, them maybe you have some insight that the
rest of us do not have. That might make a difference in how you feel
about it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
know what
his relationship with his parents is really like. We don't know much
of anything, except he isn't a young child and it isn't obvious to me
that a 16 year old young man should automatically be returned against
his will to parents he's run away from.
******************************8
We also don't know that the dad didn't write what he did out of an exagerrated sense of guilt. Parents who have things like this happen many times will put more blame on themselves than maybe they deserve. I agree his letter is telling, but I don't think we should jump to conclusions. These parents are both distraught. There may be much more to this story than anyone really knows.
Having said that, I hope they find him and work it out for the better.
Kristen
his relationship with his parents is really like. We don't know much
of anything, except he isn't a young child and it isn't obvious to me
that a 16 year old young man should automatically be returned against
his will to parents he's run away from.
******************************8
We also don't know that the dad didn't write what he did out of an exagerrated sense of guilt. Parents who have things like this happen many times will put more blame on themselves than maybe they deserve. I agree his letter is telling, but I don't think we should jump to conclusions. These parents are both distraught. There may be much more to this story than anyone really knows.
Having said that, I hope they find him and work it out for the better.
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:59 AM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
> Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. I
> might simply
> let the father know he was seen (but not say where) and that he is
> ok or has
> a message for his family, or whatever the boy asked for. The fact
> that you
> chose to let the announcement go through to your list in the first
> place
> should now be followed up with a discussion, if one occurs.
>
> I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of
> folks,
> despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows
> us to
> help and comfort one another. The fact that this boy may not have
> been an
> unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.
>
> Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home
> does not
> mean that they never would, nor that other unschool kids wouldn't.
> Life is
> too complex, with too many variables, to make predictions that involve
> 'never'. I too empathize with the son... but also with the
> parents. I
> agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love,
> respect for
> the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs.
> top-down
> discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a
> family in
> our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?
Not sure what you're complaining about, Barb. Sounds like you and
Sandra (and I) are in agreement. We wouldn't automatically "turn in"
a 16 year old who has left home. He could have really good reasons,
we just don't know. I would let parents know that I knew he was okay,
too.
I DID call a runaway kid's parents, once, because I read some of his
email and he appeared to be suicidal. I KNEW his parents and I knew
what the problem was - he was gay and he didn't think they could
accept that. HE was wrong - as hard as it was for them, I knew they'd
find a way because I knew they loved him through and through.
I called his dad and read him some of his son's email and told him
where he was. They got help for him and for themselves and they are
all doing fine, today. Dad and son have both thanked us.
But - in that case, I knew the child and the parents and I knew what
the problem was, exactly. And I was very certain that the son was
wrong about what his parents' reaction was going to be.
We don't know why this 16 year old has left home. We don't know what
his relationship with his parents is really like. We don't know much
of anything, except he isn't a young child and it isn't obvious to me
that a 16 year old young man should automatically be returned against
his will to parents he's run away from.
Barb, if you know them, them maybe you have some insight that the
rest of us do not have. That might make a difference in how you feel
about it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barb Lundgren
I was voicing a counter opinion, I thought, to what I read was Sandra's
opposition to help this father find his son. It is entirely possible I
misread her intentions.. this is only email afterall, and a far cry from
person-so-person communication. I totally understand if this discussion is
not appropriate for this list, although since the announcement was allowed,
I think a discussion should follow.
Insight on the family: I know the father professionally and somewhat
personally. He and his wife gave up their NYC jobs and moved to lower key
Florida, starting a home business (home school related) so they could spend
more time with their young teen... about 3 years ago. They are admittedly
not unschoolers and we have had discussions about the difference. They
definitely have had more of a plan to "produce the well educated child".
So, while we all have our opinions about that, and we have seen a taste
through this family of a possible outcome of this approach which we are all
sensitive to and certainly empathetic, the fact remains that a child is
missing. Even though parents believe he is in the northwest, they don't
know and don't know how he got there, why or where he is, nor what condition
he is in. All this is as troubling as it gets for a parent, and I am deeply
concerned for them.
I would love to see this unschool list jump at any opportunity to help
locate the boy, if for no other reason to come to his aid and help him get
what he is after.
Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:28:30 -0800
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
opposition to help this father find his son. It is entirely possible I
misread her intentions.. this is only email afterall, and a far cry from
person-so-person communication. I totally understand if this discussion is
not appropriate for this list, although since the announcement was allowed,
I think a discussion should follow.
Insight on the family: I know the father professionally and somewhat
personally. He and his wife gave up their NYC jobs and moved to lower key
Florida, starting a home business (home school related) so they could spend
more time with their young teen... about 3 years ago. They are admittedly
not unschoolers and we have had discussions about the difference. They
definitely have had more of a plan to "produce the well educated child".
So, while we all have our opinions about that, and we have seen a taste
through this family of a possible outcome of this approach which we are all
sensitive to and certainly empathetic, the fact remains that a child is
missing. Even though parents believe he is in the northwest, they don't
know and don't know how he got there, why or where he is, nor what condition
he is in. All this is as troubling as it gets for a parent, and I am deeply
concerned for them.
I would love to see this unschool list jump at any opportunity to help
locate the boy, if for no other reason to come to his aid and help him get
what he is after.
Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:28:30 -0800
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
On Nov 22, 2005, at 11:59 AM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
> Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. I
> might simply
> let the father know he was seen (but not say where) and that he is
> ok or has
> a message for his family, or whatever the boy asked for. The fact
> that you
> chose to let the announcement go through to your list in the first
> place
> should now be followed up with a discussion, if one occurs.
>
> I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of
> folks,
> despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows
> us to
> help and comfort one another. The fact that this boy may not have
> been an
> unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.
>
> Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home
> does not
> mean that they never would, nor that other unschool kids wouldn't.
> Life is
> too complex, with too many variables, to make predictions that involve
> 'never'. I too empathize with the son... but also with the
> parents. I
> agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love,
> respect for
> the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs.
> top-down
> discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a
> family in
> our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?
Not sure what you're complaining about, Barb. Sounds like you and
Sandra (and I) are in agreement. We wouldn't automatically "turn in"
a 16 year old who has left home. He could have really good reasons,
we just don't know. I would let parents know that I knew he was okay,
too.
I DID call a runaway kid's parents, once, because I read some of his
email and he appeared to be suicidal. I KNEW his parents and I knew
what the problem was - he was gay and he didn't think they could
accept that. HE was wrong - as hard as it was for them, I knew they'd
find a way because I knew they loved him through and through.
I called his dad and read him some of his son's email and told him
where he was. They got help for him and for themselves and they are
all doing fine, today. Dad and son have both thanked us.
But - in that case, I knew the child and the parents and I knew what
the problem was, exactly. And I was very certain that the son was
wrong about what his parents' reaction was going to be.
We don't know why this 16 year old has left home. We don't know what
his relationship with his parents is really like. We don't know much
of anything, except he isn't a young child and it isn't obvious to me
that a 16 year old young man should automatically be returned against
his will to parents he's run away from.
Barb, if you know them, them maybe you have some insight that the
rest of us do not have. That might make a difference in how you feel
about it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barb Lundgren
I couldn't agree with you more. You admittedly accepted the initial email
that prompted this however. If you had refused to put it through, this
would not be an issue. Since you did however, and later seemed to suggest
that his pain was less important because he was a homeschooler vs. an
unschooler, is your opinion. Mine is different.
Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: SandraDodd@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:22:53 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
He seems to be gone from Florida. Few other parts of the U.S. are affected
one way or another.
The list isn't for local discussion, and the runaway child of someone who's
not an unschooler is thrice removed from the list's purpose.
-=-Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. -=-
We'll, you've forwarded the father's request for people to turn him in, so
you might be contributing to that, as was I by letting the announcement
through.
I hope he's not turned in, still.
-=-I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of folks,
despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows us to
help and comfort one another.-=-
It doesn't prevent those who want to help and comfort from doing so, but the
purpose of this list isn't "support" of the parents. It's the discussion
of the benefits of unschooling and how they play out in everyday life.
-=-The fact that this boy may not have been an
unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.-=-
That's fine for you. Each of us makes decisions in different ways. Five
hundred different angles on the idea of community still shouldn't keep this
list from discussing how parenting affects relationships.
-=-Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home does not
mean that they never would-=-
If they do or don't, it won't be because of what I wrote on this list,
that's
for sure. They're 19, 16 and 14 and they haven't so much as slammed a door
in anger for years.
If I wanted to frustrate a child to the point of running away, I'm sure I
know how to do it. I've seen others do it my whole life. I wouldn't WANT
to
do it, but if I snapped and wanted to, or wanted to win some big bet or
something I can only imagine... here's what I would do: I would attempt to
force
the kid to do what I said, eat when and where and how I said (OF COURSE eat
WHAT
I said), and stop eating when I said, and not snack between meals. I would
force the child to clean his room to my satisfaction and on my schedule. I
would force him to go to school even if he didn't want to, or just as good,
maybe I would force him to homeschool even though he wanted to go to school.
I
would make him help me and then complain about the quality of his work. I
would give him very little money and never help him out financially, but
make
him live within his allowance. I would tell him what to wear and how to
wear
it. I'd make him be home and in bed at a certain time. I wouldn't let
him
listen to music or watch TV to go to sleep, because that would be wasting my
electricity. I would make him fill out college applications, and then
complain about his handwriting. If I let him play video games at all, I
would make
him sell his old system and put that money toward a new one. I wouldn't
let
him watch R rated movies. If I let him drive the car I would charge him
by the mile and make him pay his own insurance and remind him frequently
what a
big favor I was doing by not making him wait until he had enough to buy his
own car. When he turned 18, I would start charging him rent. Happy
birthday.
I doubt the family in question did al those things, but they probably did
some of them.
They're all things I've seen done by families I know or have known.
None of those families has kids happier than mine, nor relationships with
their kids as good as Keith and I have with ours.
-=-I
agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love, respect for
the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs. top-down
discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a family in
our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?-=-
I don't know about "unconditional love"--it's a concept often misused and
abused.
What is relevant about what the list supports is that this list doesn't
exist
to help a family in "a broad homeschool community." Even it this were a
Washington State unschooling list, it wouldn't be the purpose of the list.
Support and help come in different ways. We're working through and honing
ideas and ways to express those ideas that have helped MANY families have
better relationships, more peace, more stability and security in their
family
lives.
The woman whose husband and church made her homeschool against her will...
(yeah, which one?) , the one who drowned her kids. Was she part of our
broad
homeschool community? The mom who killed kids with a rock (was she in
Texas
too?) Did we owe her help and support? The family with all the adopted
kids they can't take care of (yeah, which one?) and so they left some in the
house and hungry (still doesn't narrow it down to one family...)--them too?
I have more in common with others who grew up in Northern New Mexico than I
have in common with the people in the paragraph above. I have more in
common
with other folksinging guitar players, even those who are childless or send
their kids to school, than I will ever have in common with a family whose
children are dressed for school each morning by 8:00 and report to their
in-house
schoolroom or kitchen table.
Joyce, one of the listowners, wrote this:
-=-Everyone who is interested in unschooling or finding out more about it is
welcome to join. But be aware that the list is for those who are seeking a
deeper understanding of unschooling, a more respectful relationship with
their
children, to move out of their comfort zone to reach for something better.
That
means, though we recognize how hard the journey is and how far people come
to
just let go of one schoolish thing, this list can't offer on line support
for
people who are pausing at some comfortable spot on their journey towards
unschooling. We are here to support those who are actively pushing beyond
their
comfort zones.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that prompted this however. If you had refused to put it through, this
would not be an issue. Since you did however, and later seemed to suggest
that his pain was less important because he was a homeschooler vs. an
unschooler, is your opinion. Mine is different.
Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: SandraDodd@...
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:22:53 EST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
> -=-I don't agree that someone who reads this list couldn't find or helpThose in New Zealand, Australia, England, France and Canada won't.
> find
> this boy. -=-
>
He seems to be gone from Florida. Few other parts of the U.S. are affected
one way or another.
The list isn't for local discussion, and the runaway child of someone who's
not an unschooler is thrice removed from the list's purpose.
-=-Like Sandra, I would not turn him in either if I found him. -=-
We'll, you've forwarded the father's request for people to turn him in, so
you might be contributing to that, as was I by letting the announcement
through.
I hope he's not turned in, still.
-=-I like to think that unschoolers make up some sort of community of folks,
despite whatever geographic distance exists between us, that allows us to
help and comfort one another.-=-
It doesn't prevent those who want to help and comfort from doing so, but the
purpose of this list isn't "support" of the parents. It's the discussion
of the benefits of unschooling and how they play out in everyday life.
-=-The fact that this boy may not have been an
unschooler, but rather a homeschooler, is an irrelevant point to me.-=-
That's fine for you. Each of us makes decisions in different ways. Five
hundred different angles on the idea of community still shouldn't keep this
list from discussing how parenting affects relationships.
-=-Just because Sandra says her kids would never run away from home does not
mean that they never would-=-
If they do or don't, it won't be because of what I wrote on this list,
that's
for sure. They're 19, 16 and 14 and they haven't so much as slammed a door
in anger for years.
If I wanted to frustrate a child to the point of running away, I'm sure I
know how to do it. I've seen others do it my whole life. I wouldn't WANT
to
do it, but if I snapped and wanted to, or wanted to win some big bet or
something I can only imagine... here's what I would do: I would attempt to
force
the kid to do what I said, eat when and where and how I said (OF COURSE eat
WHAT
I said), and stop eating when I said, and not snack between meals. I would
force the child to clean his room to my satisfaction and on my schedule. I
would force him to go to school even if he didn't want to, or just as good,
maybe I would force him to homeschool even though he wanted to go to school.
I
would make him help me and then complain about the quality of his work. I
would give him very little money and never help him out financially, but
make
him live within his allowance. I would tell him what to wear and how to
wear
it. I'd make him be home and in bed at a certain time. I wouldn't let
him
listen to music or watch TV to go to sleep, because that would be wasting my
electricity. I would make him fill out college applications, and then
complain about his handwriting. If I let him play video games at all, I
would make
him sell his old system and put that money toward a new one. I wouldn't
let
him watch R rated movies. If I let him drive the car I would charge him
by the mile and make him pay his own insurance and remind him frequently
what a
big favor I was doing by not making him wait until he had enough to buy his
own car. When he turned 18, I would start charging him rent. Happy
birthday.
I doubt the family in question did al those things, but they probably did
some of them.
They're all things I've seen done by families I know or have known.
None of those families has kids happier than mine, nor relationships with
their kids as good as Keith and I have with ours.
-=-I
agree that this list supports such tenets as unconditional love, respect for
the unique learning styles of each child, good communication vs. top-down
discipline, etc. How is this relevant however to the fact that a family in
our broad homeschool community is in crisis and needs help?-=-
I don't know about "unconditional love"--it's a concept often misused and
abused.
What is relevant about what the list supports is that this list doesn't
exist
to help a family in "a broad homeschool community." Even it this were a
Washington State unschooling list, it wouldn't be the purpose of the list.
Support and help come in different ways. We're working through and honing
ideas and ways to express those ideas that have helped MANY families have
better relationships, more peace, more stability and security in their
family
lives.
The woman whose husband and church made her homeschool against her will...
(yeah, which one?) , the one who drowned her kids. Was she part of our
broad
homeschool community? The mom who killed kids with a rock (was she in
Texas
too?) Did we owe her help and support? The family with all the adopted
kids they can't take care of (yeah, which one?) and so they left some in the
house and hungry (still doesn't narrow it down to one family...)--them too?
I have more in common with others who grew up in Northern New Mexico than I
have in common with the people in the paragraph above. I have more in
common
with other folksinging guitar players, even those who are childless or send
their kids to school, than I will ever have in common with a family whose
children are dressed for school each morning by 8:00 and report to their
in-house
schoolroom or kitchen table.
Joyce, one of the listowners, wrote this:
-=-Everyone who is interested in unschooling or finding out more about it is
welcome to join. But be aware that the list is for those who are seeking a
deeper understanding of unschooling, a more respectful relationship with
their
children, to move out of their comfort zone to reach for something better.
That
means, though we recognize how hard the journey is and how far people come
to
just let go of one schoolish thing, this list can't offer on line support
for
people who are pausing at some comfortable spot on their journey towards
unschooling. We are here to support those who are actively pushing beyond
their
comfort zones.-=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/05 5:29:31 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
resolve.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-I agree his letter is telling, but I don't think we should jump toThere are no conclusions, just observations. The situation isn't ours to
> conclusions.-=-
>
resolve.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Barb Lundgren barb.lundgren@...
I would love to see this unschool list jump at any opportunity to help
locate the boy, if for no other reason to come to his aid and help him get
what he is after.
-=-=-
I don't think ANYONE here would hesitate to help this child. ANYONE. But I *do* think that the reasons for his leaving are fodder for discussing unschooling (and parenting philosophy) and its benefits.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Barb Lundgren barb.lundgren@...
I would love to see this unschool list jump at any opportunity to help
locate the boy, if for no other reason to come to his aid and help him get
what he is after.
-=-=-
I don't think ANYONE here would hesitate to help this child. ANYONE. But I *do* think that the reasons for his leaving are fodder for discussing unschooling (and parenting philosophy) and its benefits.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/22/05 7:08:34 PM, barb.lundgren@... writes:
There should be no issue outside of discussion on how the situation applies
to unschooling, and as that family isn't unschooling the situation turns
quickly to the relationships we ARE involved in.
-=-Since you did however, and later seemed to suggest
that his pain was less important because he was a homeschooler vs. an
unschooler, is your opinion. -=-
"His" pain the dad's? Or his-pain the son's?
In such cases I personally am more concerned with the child's feelings than
the parent's. Your choice can certainly be different. But the discussion
shouldn't be about a particular family or person, it's about the ideas and how
they apply to this list. Even if it were an unschooling family, even if they
were on the list, we're here to discuss ideas and philosophies.
-=-I would love to see this unschool list jump at any opportunity to help
locate the boy, if for no other reason to come to his aid and help him get
what he is after.-=-
I like to see this unschooling list discuss unschooling.
This list can't locate a boy. I doubt he left home in order to garner
the help of other parents. If he trusted parents better, he might have stayed
with his own. Maybe he has gone to some adults he does trust. I hope so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-I couldn't agree with you more. You admittedly accepted the initialAgreeing with me, I'm guessing, as I let the mail through.
> that prompted this however. If you had refused to put it through, this
> would not be an issue. -=-
>
There should be no issue outside of discussion on how the situation applies
to unschooling, and as that family isn't unschooling the situation turns
quickly to the relationships we ARE involved in.
-=-Since you did however, and later seemed to suggest
that his pain was less important because he was a homeschooler vs. an
unschooler, is your opinion. -=-
"His" pain the dad's? Or his-pain the son's?
In such cases I personally am more concerned with the child's feelings than
the parent's. Your choice can certainly be different. But the discussion
shouldn't be about a particular family or person, it's about the ideas and how
they apply to this list. Even if it were an unschooling family, even if they
were on the list, we're here to discuss ideas and philosophies.
-=-I would love to see this unschool list jump at any opportunity to help
locate the boy, if for no other reason to come to his aid and help him get
what he is after.-=-
I like to see this unschooling list discuss unschooling.
This list can't locate a boy. I doubt he left home in order to garner
the help of other parents. If he trusted parents better, he might have stayed
with his own. Maybe he has gone to some adults he does trust. I hope so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Have a Nice Day!
I agree it isn't ours to resolve, except where we might see similarities in our own families. I wasn't speaking of anyone in particular jumping to conclusions, just putting a general caution out there.
Kristen
Kristen
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
In a message dated 11/22/05 5:29:31 PM, litlrooh@... writes:
> -=-I agree his letter is telling, but I don't think we should jump to
> conclusions.-=-
>
There are no conclusions, just observations. The situation isn't ours to
resolve.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 22, 2005, at 7:17 PM, Barb Lundgren wrote:
we make our family's lives better? And it has pointed to the fact
that if we create a home they want to run away from, they can.
So how can we create homes they don't want to run away from?
How can we get rid of the boxes we might be confining them in so they
don't feel like they have to escape?
It's not saying to kids "Go do whatever you want." If it were we
could just put that on the list description and shut it down ;-)
is not as important as how an unschoolers life turns out. His child
didn't run away because he was unschooling and practicing respectful
parenting so *for the purposes of this list* we should stick to
discussions that help us make better lives for our families.
People in this world make all sorts of decisions that create
unpleasant situations for themselves. *The purpose of the list* is
not to express the hurt we feel for those people. Individuals on the
list can feel how ever they wish, discuss whatever they wish. They
just need to express it elsewhere so this list can be what the list
discription says its purpose is: discussing unschooling.
I know once people find a place where others they like gather, the
list can start to feel like a comfy place to come chit-chat about our
lives and hopes and fears. But that's not its purpose. The purpose is
to discuss unschooling -- which *can be* our lives and hopes and (how
to get past our) fears about unschooling ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I couldn't agree with you more. You admittedly accepted theThe "this" it should prompt is discussion about unschooling. How can
> initial email
> that prompted this however. If you had refused to put it through, this
> would not be an issue.
we make our family's lives better? And it has pointed to the fact
that if we create a home they want to run away from, they can.
So how can we create homes they don't want to run away from?
How can we get rid of the boxes we might be confining them in so they
don't feel like they have to escape?
It's not saying to kids "Go do whatever you want." If it were we
could just put that on the list description and shut it down ;-)
> Since you did however, and later seemed to suggestNo. *For the purposes of the list*, how this father's life turned out
> that his pain was less important because he was a homeschooler vs. an
> unschooler, is your opinion. Mine is different.
is not as important as how an unschoolers life turns out. His child
didn't run away because he was unschooling and practicing respectful
parenting so *for the purposes of this list* we should stick to
discussions that help us make better lives for our families.
People in this world make all sorts of decisions that create
unpleasant situations for themselves. *The purpose of the list* is
not to express the hurt we feel for those people. Individuals on the
list can feel how ever they wish, discuss whatever they wish. They
just need to express it elsewhere so this list can be what the list
discription says its purpose is: discussing unschooling.
I know once people find a place where others they like gather, the
list can start to feel like a comfy place to come chit-chat about our
lives and hopes and fears. But that's not its purpose. The purpose is
to discuss unschooling -- which *can be* our lives and hopes and (how
to get past our) fears about unschooling ;-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
elainegh8
From a personal perspective the father is using emotional blackmail in
his letter to try and get his son back. It might work this time but
eventually it won't. Using emotional blackmail such "see what I've
done for you" and "see what I've given up for you" does not make
people want to be with you or do things for you.
I've had this kind of thing from my mother most of my life. Not as
overtly as the dad has done, it was much more subtle, but it doesn't
make you feel loved it just makes you feel permanently disapproved of.
Both me and my brother had left home by the age of 18.
BWs Elaine
his letter to try and get his son back. It might work this time but
eventually it won't. Using emotional blackmail such "see what I've
done for you" and "see what I've given up for you" does not make
people want to be with you or do things for you.
I've had this kind of thing from my mother most of my life. Not as
overtly as the dad has done, it was much more subtle, but it doesn't
make you feel loved it just makes you feel permanently disapproved of.
Both me and my brother had left home by the age of 18.
BWs Elaine
Barb Lundgren
Frankly, from what I have seen, 99% of kids are basically kicked out at age
18 by being given one of three options: go to college, join the military or
get a job and an apartment. The kids know this too, ahead of time, and get
to stress out over it for years before it happens. The dad in this runaway
family may have been giving his son the same message but because the son
chose to leave on his own terms (if he did and we don't know he did), he is
freaked. The fact that he doesn't know where he is or what condition he is
in would concern any parent obviously. It would be interesting to see what
happens to the boy if and when he is found.
Any person's greatest mistake is thinking they have control over anyone but
themselves. Parents most commonly fall victim to this way of thinking, but
they have learned it and been conditioned to it themselves all their lives
so they think it's natural, right and unquestionable. I often wonder how
and why things lined up magically for me such that I consciously chose to
abandon all I had learned and move in a complete and total opposite
direction from how I was raised. It's good we can find support for
alternative ways of parenting among our unschool support networks.
Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: "elainegh8" <elainegh8@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:34:33 -0000
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
From a personal perspective the father is using emotional blackmail in
his letter to try and get his son back. It might work this time but
eventually it won't. Using emotional blackmail such "see what I've
done for you" and "see what I've given up for you" does not make
people want to be with you or do things for you.
I've had this kind of thing from my mother most of my life. Not as
overtly as the dad has done, it was much more subtle, but it doesn't
make you feel loved it just makes you feel permanently disapproved of.
Both me and my brother had left home by the age of 18.
BWs Elaine
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
18 by being given one of three options: go to college, join the military or
get a job and an apartment. The kids know this too, ahead of time, and get
to stress out over it for years before it happens. The dad in this runaway
family may have been giving his son the same message but because the son
chose to leave on his own terms (if he did and we don't know he did), he is
freaked. The fact that he doesn't know where he is or what condition he is
in would concern any parent obviously. It would be interesting to see what
happens to the boy if and when he is found.
Any person's greatest mistake is thinking they have control over anyone but
themselves. Parents most commonly fall victim to this way of thinking, but
they have learned it and been conditioned to it themselves all their lives
so they think it's natural, right and unquestionable. I often wonder how
and why things lined up magically for me such that I consciously chose to
abandon all I had learned and move in a complete and total opposite
direction from how I was raised. It's good we can find support for
alternative ways of parenting among our unschool support networks.
Barb
E-mail: barb.lundgren@...
"Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness
has genius, power, and magic in it." Goethe
From: "elainegh8" <elainegh8@...>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 14:34:33 -0000
To: [email protected]
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: OT: Missing Homeschooled Teenager
From a personal perspective the father is using emotional blackmail in
his letter to try and get his son back. It might work this time but
eventually it won't. Using emotional blackmail such "see what I've
done for you" and "see what I've given up for you" does not make
people want to be with you or do things for you.
I've had this kind of thing from my mother most of my life. Not as
overtly as the dad has done, it was much more subtle, but it doesn't
make you feel loved it just makes you feel permanently disapproved of.
Both me and my brother had left home by the age of 18.
BWs Elaine
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
janddplus5
I don't think we ever need to tell our children "all" we have given
up for them. Mostly my children know what choices I have made to
give my life to them. It is not giving something up from my
perspective it is just making a better choice of what to do with my
life.
There is a line in the movie Cheaper By the Dozen where Steve Martin
quits his new job that is taking so much time from his family and
his boss asks "Are you giving up the dream?" and he replies "No,
just going with a different one!".
That is how I feel about my life. I had many ideas about my life
before I had children. Now my dream is to make as many of my
children's dreams come true as I can. I don't deny myself
everything either but I do make choices in how I spend the time in
my life. If I wanted it to be all about me then I should have
remained childless.
My kids know what I "gave up" if we have to say it that way, because
they ask "Mommy what did you used to do before you had kids? Did
you like it? Will you ever do it again? What will you do when we
grow up?" And so forth. I chose to have 5 wonderful children and
my children, I hope, will always feel that I have no regrets in they
way I chose to spend my life staying home and raising them.
My kids have one childhood and I intend to make it magical as much
as I can. I missed out on childhood and realized it after I was an
adult. I was a runaway teen at 16 and NEVER went back. I have
never lived at home again and I just turned 33 two weeks ago.
"I" didn't want anyone turning me in. If I had I wouldn't have
looked for an escape route. My mother was smart though and began to
try and work on our relationship. She didn't force me to come home
when she found me. She flew to where I was and talked with me and
left me there and told me she would always be there if I wanted to
come home. When I came back to town I had my own apartment and a
job! She supported me in those choices because she realized her
mistakes and loved me so much that she wasn't willing to lose me or
my love. I love her for it to this day.
This pretty much alienated her from my family, but my relationship
with her was better for it and we were closer than ever and remained
that way until she died at 44 years old. I am grateful for the time
that I had in the relationship with her in the years that followed.
It didn't make up for or I should say take away the years of
pressure and disappointment in me, but it did enable me to have a
closer relationship with her than I had ever had and learn from her
decision to respect me. It taught me alot in how I parent my
children and how I treat my friends for that matter.
I hope that things will work out with this family, but I know that
for me it wouldn't have if my mother had chased me down and made me
feel guilty over all she had given up for an ungrateful child like
me. Some relatives reacted just like this and to this day the
relationships are strained at best if there is even a relationship
at all. Being a military family we always look for orders as far
away as possible because I feel strangled by family and always
disapproved of even to this day. We just put in for Hawaii, nope no
family there! It's sad but I really hope we get those orders.
Dana
up for them. Mostly my children know what choices I have made to
give my life to them. It is not giving something up from my
perspective it is just making a better choice of what to do with my
life.
There is a line in the movie Cheaper By the Dozen where Steve Martin
quits his new job that is taking so much time from his family and
his boss asks "Are you giving up the dream?" and he replies "No,
just going with a different one!".
That is how I feel about my life. I had many ideas about my life
before I had children. Now my dream is to make as many of my
children's dreams come true as I can. I don't deny myself
everything either but I do make choices in how I spend the time in
my life. If I wanted it to be all about me then I should have
remained childless.
My kids know what I "gave up" if we have to say it that way, because
they ask "Mommy what did you used to do before you had kids? Did
you like it? Will you ever do it again? What will you do when we
grow up?" And so forth. I chose to have 5 wonderful children and
my children, I hope, will always feel that I have no regrets in they
way I chose to spend my life staying home and raising them.
My kids have one childhood and I intend to make it magical as much
as I can. I missed out on childhood and realized it after I was an
adult. I was a runaway teen at 16 and NEVER went back. I have
never lived at home again and I just turned 33 two weeks ago.
"I" didn't want anyone turning me in. If I had I wouldn't have
looked for an escape route. My mother was smart though and began to
try and work on our relationship. She didn't force me to come home
when she found me. She flew to where I was and talked with me and
left me there and told me she would always be there if I wanted to
come home. When I came back to town I had my own apartment and a
job! She supported me in those choices because she realized her
mistakes and loved me so much that she wasn't willing to lose me or
my love. I love her for it to this day.
This pretty much alienated her from my family, but my relationship
with her was better for it and we were closer than ever and remained
that way until she died at 44 years old. I am grateful for the time
that I had in the relationship with her in the years that followed.
It didn't make up for or I should say take away the years of
pressure and disappointment in me, but it did enable me to have a
closer relationship with her than I had ever had and learn from her
decision to respect me. It taught me alot in how I parent my
children and how I treat my friends for that matter.
I hope that things will work out with this family, but I know that
for me it wouldn't have if my mother had chased me down and made me
feel guilty over all she had given up for an ungrateful child like
me. Some relatives reacted just like this and to this day the
relationships are strained at best if there is even a relationship
at all. Being a military family we always look for orders as far
away as possible because I feel strangled by family and always
disapproved of even to this day. We just put in for Hawaii, nope no
family there! It's sad but I really hope we get those orders.
Dana
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/05 8:34:36 AM, janddplus5@... writes:
-=- Now my dream is to make as many of my
children's dreams come true as I can.-=-
That's beautiful, but...
-=- It is not giving something up from my
perspective it is just making a better choice of what to do with my
life. -=-
Those two lines, right next to each other, seem contradictory. This isn't
something parents have much time to really contemplate, because babies and
toddlers overwhelm us, but to keep the perspective that we ARE living our lives
is good.
When I get frustrated when having to do things for my kids sometimes, maybe
laundry or taking care of one who's sick or has had dental surgery (liquid diet
and painkillers for three days or so after Kirby's wisdom teeth came out), I
give myself an internally stern reminder to STOP IT. Every one of my
children is strong and whole. I have no wheelchair bound child. I have children
who can see, hear, and speak. I have no child whose ass I have to wipe as a
teenager; many parents do and I'm grateful and happy that mine will likely move
out of our house by choice, carry their own boxes, and not have to have
government subsidized health attendants to do it.
It's not off topic for me and myself, in my mind. My role as a mother
hasn't been all that hard. I could have made it more difficult by making a bunch
of rules my kids would have failed to follow, and by setting a hurdles of my
own creation that they might have failed to jump.
-=-My kids know what I "gave up" if we have to say it that way-=-
We don't have to say it that way. <g>
If we choose how to think and choose our words, we don't "have to" do
anything.
I could leave my family today, but I'm choosing to stay. I don't "have to"
be here. I WANT to be here.
-=- I was a runaway teen at 16 and NEVER went back. I have
never lived at home again and I just turned 33 two weeks ago.-=-
-=-
"I" didn't want anyone turning me in. If I had I wouldn't have
looked for an escape route. My mother was smart though and began to
try and work on our relationship. She didn't force me to come home
when she found me. She flew to where I was and talked with me and
left me there and told me she would always be there if I wanted to
come home.-=-
That is very cool. That's one of the best outcome stories I've ever seen.
Keith says one friend of his who ran away had a better life when he got back
in that his parents gave him the privacy of his room, and less grief about
going out with friends, but they also immediately formed his "exit plan" so that
he was scheduled to be OUT when he turned eighteen. They gave him a
kind-of-nicer last couple of years in their home before they booted him. Not as
nice as your mom's response.
My mom was nicer to me after I was grown, and for a few years she stopped
drinking and we hung out more (before she started again because she said simply
that drinking was more fun than being sober). She apologized for some things
she had done, and she was supportive of my parenting, but I accepted it pretty
neutrally. It didn't change my childhood for her to change her mind years
later. It was "nice" (wanly nice, better than nothing) but not thrilling or
lifechanging. It was easy for her, after she was living alone, to claim she
wished she had done better. It was a "whatever" situation for me, though.
She generally chose not to do better when it mattered and when she had the
chance.
We all have the chance to learn from others' mistakes (and our own) and make
better choices today, and tomorrow. That's why this list exists and has
survived, because it has helped and is helping real children's lives be better
now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- Now my dream is to make as many of my
children's dreams come true as I can.-=-
That's beautiful, but...
> -=-Mostly my children know what choices I have made to... that wording implies that you've lost your life and no longer have one.
> give my life to them. -=-
>
-=- It is not giving something up from my
perspective it is just making a better choice of what to do with my
life. -=-
Those two lines, right next to each other, seem contradictory. This isn't
something parents have much time to really contemplate, because babies and
toddlers overwhelm us, but to keep the perspective that we ARE living our lives
is good.
When I get frustrated when having to do things for my kids sometimes, maybe
laundry or taking care of one who's sick or has had dental surgery (liquid diet
and painkillers for three days or so after Kirby's wisdom teeth came out), I
give myself an internally stern reminder to STOP IT. Every one of my
children is strong and whole. I have no wheelchair bound child. I have children
who can see, hear, and speak. I have no child whose ass I have to wipe as a
teenager; many parents do and I'm grateful and happy that mine will likely move
out of our house by choice, carry their own boxes, and not have to have
government subsidized health attendants to do it.
It's not off topic for me and myself, in my mind. My role as a mother
hasn't been all that hard. I could have made it more difficult by making a bunch
of rules my kids would have failed to follow, and by setting a hurdles of my
own creation that they might have failed to jump.
-=-My kids know what I "gave up" if we have to say it that way-=-
We don't have to say it that way. <g>
If we choose how to think and choose our words, we don't "have to" do
anything.
I could leave my family today, but I'm choosing to stay. I don't "have to"
be here. I WANT to be here.
-=- I was a runaway teen at 16 and NEVER went back. I have
never lived at home again and I just turned 33 two weeks ago.-=-
-=-
"I" didn't want anyone turning me in. If I had I wouldn't have
looked for an escape route. My mother was smart though and began to
try and work on our relationship. She didn't force me to come home
when she found me. She flew to where I was and talked with me and
left me there and told me she would always be there if I wanted to
come home.-=-
That is very cool. That's one of the best outcome stories I've ever seen.
Keith says one friend of his who ran away had a better life when he got back
in that his parents gave him the privacy of his room, and less grief about
going out with friends, but they also immediately formed his "exit plan" so that
he was scheduled to be OUT when he turned eighteen. They gave him a
kind-of-nicer last couple of years in their home before they booted him. Not as
nice as your mom's response.
My mom was nicer to me after I was grown, and for a few years she stopped
drinking and we hung out more (before she started again because she said simply
that drinking was more fun than being sober). She apologized for some things
she had done, and she was supportive of my parenting, but I accepted it pretty
neutrally. It didn't change my childhood for her to change her mind years
later. It was "nice" (wanly nice, better than nothing) but not thrilling or
lifechanging. It was easy for her, after she was living alone, to claim she
wished she had done better. It was a "whatever" situation for me, though.
She generally chose not to do better when it mattered and when she had the
chance.
We all have the chance to learn from others' mistakes (and our own) and make
better choices today, and tomorrow. That's why this list exists and has
survived, because it has helped and is helping real children's lives be better
now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/23/05 9:14:43 AM, barb.lundgren@... writes:
assume that he chose to leave on his own terms, as thousands of kids do every
year.
-=- The fact that he doesn't know where he is or what condition he is
in would concern any parent obviously.-=-
The concerns of any parents aren't the topic of this list.
The boy probably knows where he is, and it's the boy's life I'm more
concerned with. His parents knew about unschooling, I presume, and decided it wasn't
what they wanted. There's where the topic touches this list.
-=-It would be interesting to see what happens to the boy if and when he is
found.-=-
We all know stories of runaways being found, don't we? The details of a
life of someone not on this list aren't the business of this list.
-=-Any person's greatest mistake is thinking they have control over anyone
but
themselves. Parents most commonly fall victim to this way of thinking,-=-
Control over decisions and thoughts we don't have, but control over affecting
the environment of others we absolutely DO have.
I have three children all still in bed. The house was cold, so I turned up
the heat and lit the oven to make cake. They will awaken to warmth and a
good smell.
I *could* (legally, and it is within my power) turn music on really loud, and
slam doors and run the vacuum cleaner and bitch at them about being lazy when
they do wake up. I am choosing not to do that. That is within my
control.
What my kids will think about me is not in my control, but it is within my
sphere of influence. I make choices every moment of my life, and those choices
matter.
-=-It's good we can find support for
alternative ways of parenting among our unschool support networks.
-=-
This list isn't a support group.
One thing a person needs to feel supported is information and ideas, and this
list does try to help people have ideas they need to change their thinking so
that unschooling can thrive, but this list isn't intended to be the be-all,
end-all for any unschooling family's life. We're not going to call to remind
people of dentist's appointments or bring casseroles if someone's injured.
It's an international all-spread-out list for the discussion of unschooling.
That's a lot already, and we don't need to feel bad about what we're NOT
providing people. No sense going to the sporting goods store and complaining
that you really needed eggnog and some earrings.
There are lists for discussing missing persons, right?
-=- Frankly, from what I have seen, 99% of kids are basically kicked out at
age
18 by being given one of three options: go to college, join the military or
get a job and an apartment. -=-
We've all lived in the same world, and many of those on this list are trying
to live differently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-The dad in this runawayHe told people where he was going. He wasn't kidnapped. I'm going to
> family may have been giving his son the same message but because the son
> chose to leave on his own terms (if he did and we don't know he did),-=-
>
assume that he chose to leave on his own terms, as thousands of kids do every
year.
-=- The fact that he doesn't know where he is or what condition he is
in would concern any parent obviously.-=-
The concerns of any parents aren't the topic of this list.
The boy probably knows where he is, and it's the boy's life I'm more
concerned with. His parents knew about unschooling, I presume, and decided it wasn't
what they wanted. There's where the topic touches this list.
-=-It would be interesting to see what happens to the boy if and when he is
found.-=-
We all know stories of runaways being found, don't we? The details of a
life of someone not on this list aren't the business of this list.
-=-Any person's greatest mistake is thinking they have control over anyone
but
themselves. Parents most commonly fall victim to this way of thinking,-=-
Control over decisions and thoughts we don't have, but control over affecting
the environment of others we absolutely DO have.
I have three children all still in bed. The house was cold, so I turned up
the heat and lit the oven to make cake. They will awaken to warmth and a
good smell.
I *could* (legally, and it is within my power) turn music on really loud, and
slam doors and run the vacuum cleaner and bitch at them about being lazy when
they do wake up. I am choosing not to do that. That is within my
control.
What my kids will think about me is not in my control, but it is within my
sphere of influence. I make choices every moment of my life, and those choices
matter.
-=-It's good we can find support for
alternative ways of parenting among our unschool support networks.
-=-
This list isn't a support group.
One thing a person needs to feel supported is information and ideas, and this
list does try to help people have ideas they need to change their thinking so
that unschooling can thrive, but this list isn't intended to be the be-all,
end-all for any unschooling family's life. We're not going to call to remind
people of dentist's appointments or bring casseroles if someone's injured.
It's an international all-spread-out list for the discussion of unschooling.
That's a lot already, and we don't need to feel bad about what we're NOT
providing people. No sense going to the sporting goods store and complaining
that you really needed eggnog and some earrings.
There are lists for discussing missing persons, right?
-=- Frankly, from what I have seen, 99% of kids are basically kicked out at
age
18 by being given one of three options: go to college, join the military or
get a job and an apartment. -=-
We've all lived in the same world, and many of those on this list are trying
to live differently.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
janddplus5
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
avenues set before me (by me), one being a career and the other to
stay home and live with my kids and spend my life being with them, I
picked to stay home. Not because I felt obligated because at 21
years old I didn't "feel" obligated. But I found that I really
liked my kids on top of loving them. I liked being with them and
watching them grow. I liked to play with them. I liked it so much
that I had 5 (never really thought I liked kids that much <g>)
I had an option that some may not have the luxury of to choose not
to work and made what I feel is the better choice. I knew I
couldn't give 100% to being a parent if I wasn't there to do it. I
love my life and can't even begin to imagine all I would have missed
with my kids if I had chosen the career. That list would be
endless...
I left the newly started career and never looked back. It has been
11 and a half years and what a fun ride it has been. I look forward
to having teenagers that are happy and confident and free to think
and be who they want to be.
My life is more wonderful than I ever knew life could be, even with
my health issues, I never imagined it could be like this. I
certainly didn't grow up this way. My children have shown me how
happy I can be by showing me how to be free from some ridiculous
expectations that someone else feels the need to impose on me.
As I sit and type this my 6 yr old is sitting on the arm of the
chair singing "sweet, sweet Mooommmyyy, sweet, sweet mooommmyyy to
the the tune of Sweet Sweet Nightengale from Cinderella. My life is
so wonderful.
Dana
>have one.
>
> In a message dated 11/23/05 8:34:36 AM, janddplus5@b... writes:
> -=- Now my dream is to make as many of my
> children's dreams come true as I can.-=-
>
> That's beautiful, but...
>
> > -=-Mostly my children know what choices I have made to
> > give my life to them. -=-
> >
>
> ... that wording implies that you've lost your life and no longer
>This isn't
>
> -=- It is not giving something up from my
> perspective it is just making a better choice of what to do with my
> life. -=-
>
> Those two lines, right next to each other, seem contradictory.
> something parents have much time to really contemplate, becausebabies and
> toddlers overwhelm us, but to keep the perspective that we AREliving our lives
> is good.*** I agree, what I meant to clarify was that between two specific
avenues set before me (by me), one being a career and the other to
stay home and live with my kids and spend my life being with them, I
picked to stay home. Not because I felt obligated because at 21
years old I didn't "feel" obligated. But I found that I really
liked my kids on top of loving them. I liked being with them and
watching them grow. I liked to play with them. I liked it so much
that I had 5 (never really thought I liked kids that much <g>)
I had an option that some may not have the luxury of to choose not
to work and made what I feel is the better choice. I knew I
couldn't give 100% to being a parent if I wasn't there to do it. I
love my life and can't even begin to imagine all I would have missed
with my kids if I had chosen the career. That list would be
endless...
I left the newly started career and never looked back. It has been
11 and a half years and what a fun ride it has been. I look forward
to having teenagers that are happy and confident and free to think
and be who they want to be.
My life is more wonderful than I ever knew life could be, even with
my health issues, I never imagined it could be like this. I
certainly didn't grow up this way. My children have shown me how
happy I can be by showing me how to be free from some ridiculous
expectations that someone else feels the need to impose on me.
As I sit and type this my 6 yr old is sitting on the arm of the
chair singing "sweet, sweet Mooommmyyy, sweet, sweet mooommmyyy to
the the tune of Sweet Sweet Nightengale from Cinderella. My life is
so wonderful.
Dana
Honor
--- In [email protected], Barb Lundgren
<barb.lundgren@c...> wrote:
attitude that at 18 "YOU ARE AN ADULT". My sister was abused and
neglected, I was just a late bloomer. She has finally stabilized her
life, and is happily married, after years of floating, moving and
many, many jobs. I don't think I was ready for "ADULT" life untill a
few years ago (I'm 30 now); right out of high school, I went to
college, and then got married. I was well educated and intelligent,
but I really had no common sense or maturity. The biggest problem I
had/have is no one will help some one that they think should "know
all of this by now" or is "just a loser". So then, when I figure it
out by myself, I want to turn and be angry with them. I just wish I
had a mentor now. This is hard on my kids too!
<barb.lundgren@c...> wrote:
>out at age
> Frankly, from what I have seen, 99% of kids are basically kicked
> 18 by being given one of three options: go to college, join themilitary or
> get a job and an apartment. The kids know this too,My sister and I struggled for years to "catch up" because of this
>
attitude that at 18 "YOU ARE AN ADULT". My sister was abused and
neglected, I was just a late bloomer. She has finally stabilized her
life, and is happily married, after years of floating, moving and
many, many jobs. I don't think I was ready for "ADULT" life untill a
few years ago (I'm 30 now); right out of high school, I went to
college, and then got married. I was well educated and intelligent,
but I really had no common sense or maturity. The biggest problem I
had/have is no one will help some one that they think should "know
all of this by now" or is "just a loser". So then, when I figure it
out by myself, I want to turn and be angry with them. I just wish I
had a mentor now. This is hard on my kids too!