[email protected]

My 83 year old Mamaw had been a junk-eating fool when she could get it.
Yes, in the 30's and 40's she ate more non-processed foods, not counting the
addition of SPAM and Vienna Sausage and such canned meats. She canned her own
vegetables and fruit, and honestly... I'd be afraid sometimes. She was
sensitive to wheat in her later years and ate potato bread and rye bread.

Keith's parents will probably pass 90 and they eat very little, and none of
that very good. Pancake mix, and the cheapest possible of whatever they do
get.

My mom died in her 70's though she smoke and drank and hardly ever ate
anything that didn't come out of a can in those later years.

Her parents had a little farm and ate okra, green beans and tomatoes that
they grew themselves, but the okra was always rolled in cornmeal batter and
fried, and for breakfast EVERY day they had homemade biscuits, sausage and eggs.
She smoked, he dipped snuff, they got old.

Spam... Most of them ate a lot of Spam.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kimberly Viducich

So what I hear you saying is "Who the heck knows why
some people live long and some don't". My thinking has
been turning this more and more. My mother in-law is
90 and my father in-law in his mid 80's. THey eat a
variety of foods, some bad, some good. I also, in the
past year moved to a town where it is harder to get
organic fruits and veggies. So I have been eating
everything conventional. I personally feel better when
I eat a certain way. That is my two cents .
Kimberly

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:

> My 83 year old Mamaw had been a junk-eating fool
> when she could get it.
> Yes, in the 30's and 40's she ate more non-processed
> foods, not counting the
> addition of SPAM and Vienna Sausage and such canned
> meats. She canned her own
> vegetables and fruit, and honestly... I'd be
> afraid sometimes. She was
> sensitive to wheat in her later years and ate potato
> bread and rye bread.
>
> Keith's parents will probably pass 90 and they eat
> very little, and none of
> that very good. Pancake mix, and the cheapest
> possible of whatever they do
> get.
>
> My mom died in her 70's though she smoke and drank
> and hardly ever ate
> anything that didn't come out of a can in those
> later years.
>
> Her parents had a little farm and ate okra, green
> beans and tomatoes that
> they grew themselves, but the okra was always rolled
> in cornmeal batter and
> fried, and for breakfast EVERY day they had homemade
> biscuits, sausage and eggs.
> She smoked, he dipped snuff, they got old.
>
> Spam... Most of them ate a lot of Spam.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>




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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/2005 2:24:38 AM Central Standard Time,
kvid@... writes:

So what I hear you saying is "Who the heck knows why
some people live long and some don't". My thinking has
been turning this more and more. My mother in-law is
90 and my father in-law in his mid 80's. THey eat a
variety of foods, some bad, some good. I also, in the
past year moved to a town where it is harder to get
organic fruits and veggies. So I have been eating
everything conventional. I personally feel better when
I eat a certain way. That is my two cents .



~~~
The lastest Geographic has a feature about longevity.

There ARE some similarities between populations who tend to live a long
time--some Okinawans, some Seventh-Day Adventists, etc., all had
similarities...but they had really divergent lifestyles and cultures.

One of the things I thought was most interesting is that they all had very,
very active social lives. They were out of the house every day or they had
people in every single day.

My grandmother just turned 100 and Charles' Aunt Susie did, too, both in the
same week. Maw is in the nursing home, and while she's not exactly a
vegetable, she doesn't know anyone. She came to her party at a far away church.
She can still meet her own needs with help, and has very distinct ideas about
what her needs are and makes them known.

Aunt Susie on the other hand, still lives in her home, by herself, and has a
garden where she tends her collards. I have a picture of her on my fridge,
out there with her walker, watering the collards and something else,
tomatoes, maybe. The garden is gorgeous and lush, but she lives in Florida so that
helps. Aunt Susie dips snuff and chews tobacco. In fact, Beechnut sent her a
year's supply of chewing tobacco when they heard about her 100th birthday!
(I think that's just gross, but she's from another time.) She remembered
almost *everyone* at her birthday party, and lots of us flew in from many
states to attend. She has a wicked sense of humor and is always the life of the
party.

I don't think you can ever tell what leads to longevity or not. Everyone's
circumstances are different.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

deedeanne

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
The lastest Geographic has a feature about longevity.

There ARE some similarities between populations who tend to live a
long
time--some Okinawans, some Seventh-Day Adventists, etc., all had
similarities...but they had really divergent lifestyles and cultures.


Hi Karen!

I was going to mention this article, but you beat me to it. What stood
out to me was that one of the key habits they said all groups studied
had was "put[ting] family first." I think as unschoolers we do a
pretty good job at that one, huh? Maybe we will all live into our 100s
and they'll be studying unschoolers (or at least trying to) to figure
out our secrets someday!<g>

Deanne in FL

Ann

I don't think I realized anybody cooked meat outside of a cast iron skillet or used an oven for anything but biscuits and pie until I was a teenager. Except for when grandma made homemade chicken and noodles, but there was nothing low fat about those, just delicious.:0) My grandparents did garden and can some, more on a hobby type basis though. They would make a relish or a jam just because they liked it better than what they could buy. Some of my relatives smoked, some didn't. They all lived into their 70's and 80's anyway, but the ones who didn't smoke did seem to be healthier and more active.

My mother still eats spam:0) It's one of her favorite meals, spam, eggs and biscutis. I never buy it, had too much of it as a kid.
One interesting thing, they all ate the same stuff, none were obese, some were a bit heavier than others, but weight was of no particular issue. None of them lived on farms or did farm work. Conventional wisdom says they should have died young or fat, but they didn't.
The main difference I notice is portions today are different. I have my grandparents' juice glasses, and they are quite small. The bowls and saucers in the set of dishes I have are smaller than what you would get if you bought new ones. I've often thought that these smaller dishers did cause them to eat less at a time.
Ann

SandraDodd@... wrote:
My 83 year old Mamaw had been a junk-eating fool when she could get it.
Yes, in the 30's and 40's she ate more non-processed foods, not counting the
addition of SPAM and Vienna Sausage and such canned meats. She canned her own
vegetables and fruit, and honestly... I'd be afraid sometimes. She was
sensitive to wheat in her later years and ate potato bread and rye bread.

Keith's parents will probably pass 90 and they eat very little, and none of
that very good. Pancake mix, and the cheapest possible of whatever they do
get.

My mom died in her 70's though she smoke and drank and hardly ever ate
anything that didn't come out of a can in those later years.

Her parents had a little farm and ate okra, green beans and tomatoes that
they grew themselves, but the okra was always rolled in cornmeal batter and
fried, and for breakfast EVERY day they had homemade biscuits, sausage and eggs.
She smoked, he dipped snuff, they got old.

Spam... Most of them ate a lot of Spam.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elainegh8

Then you're lucky and have a set of genes in the family which
probably mean you can eat things like saturated fat and not have any
problems. Most people don't have those genes.

Some have ones that make them prone to things. Most of my partner's
family were dead before 60. His dad has just had a bypass. My
partner has to watch his cholesterol now and make sure he has plenty
of exercise etc

My grandmother died in her 70s but for a long time her quality of
life was not good as she had been a smoker. My aunty ( died at age
63 from lung cancer, my cousin died at age 40 from lung cancer. Mu
ucnle died of brain tumour,he didn't smoke but he breathed their
smoke for years and years. My grandfather although he had a long
life died from cancer of the oesophagus and lung caused by smoking.
Non of them but my aunty and cousin were related by blood as there
are stepfamilies and adoptions in my family.

My ex husband's grandmother died of cancer of the bronchials (can't
remember the right term) caused by smoking. His dad literally
dropped dead at home from a massive coronary at age 56, he smoked
and ate too much saturated and trans fat. My stepfather has liver
disease and a cancer called Waldenstrom's macroglobulin anaemia. He
drank too much and smoked,he didn't even make retirement he had to
be retired on health grounds.

There are people who can get away with smoking, drinking and living
on lard, same as some people get away with not maintaining the
brakes on their car, but most people are not or will not be so lucky.

There are exceptions to the rule but I firmly believe that a healthy
diet and not smoking is best for most people. That doesn't mean a
little of what you fancy now and again is a bad thing. I like the
ocassional icecream, pizza, cheese, chocolate or cake. I don't eat
them all the time though.

My cousin was dead at 40 from lung cancer. I gave up smoking, I'm
glad I did. I'm now 41, I wish my cousin was still here.

BWs Elaine

>
> My 83 year old Mamaw had been a junk-eating fool when she could
get it.
> Yes, in the 30's and 40's she ate more non-processed foods, not
counting the
> addition of SPAM and Vienna Sausage and such canned meats. She
canned her own
> vegetables and fruit, and honestly... I'd be afraid sometimes.
She was
> sensitive to wheat in her later years and ate potato bread and rye
bread.
>
> Keith's parents will probably pass 90 and they eat very little,
and none of
> that very good. Pancake mix, and the cheapest possible of
whatever they do
> get.
>
> My mom died in her 70's though she smoke and drank and hardly ever
ate
> anything that didn't come out of a can in those later years.
>
> Her parents had a little farm and ate okra, green beans and
tomatoes that
> they grew themselves, but the okra was always rolled in cornmeal
batter and
> fried, and for breakfast EVERY day they had homemade biscuits,
sausage and eggs.
> She smoked, he dipped snuff, they got old.
>
> Spam... Most of them ate a lot of Spam.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

The following rant is not personal, just about the whole overall topic of how
much we can control life, health and death:

> -=-Some have ones that make them prone to things. Most of my partner's
> family were dead before 60. His dad has just had a bypass.-==-
>

So is it possibly more likely that nothing one eats or does will overcome
genetics?

My whole life, doctors have said that being hopeful and happy and less
stressed is good for health, and yet there is more stress and unhappiness over diet
in some people's lives than anything else.

We've all heard stories of or seen ourselves some mom shrilly and in a panic
snatch a lollipop out of a kid's hand or mouth with an expression of imminent
death that might should be saved for rattlesnakes and explosives. I
personally think that does the child more damage (and the mom too) than half a dozen
lollipops.

-=-My grandmother died in her 70s but for a long time her quality of
life was not good as she had been a smoker.-=-

WHY is long life better? How many people in nursing homes might rather be
healthy, or dead, but not sickly and warehoused?

-=-Mu ucnle died of brain tumour,he didn't smoke but he breathed their
smoke for years and years.-=-

Do you think smoke causes brain tumors? I don't think so, or the days when
people had indoor fires as their only sources of heat and cooking would've
been braintumor seasons for sure.

-=- His dad literally dropped dead at home from a massive coronary at age 56,
he smoked
and ate too much saturated and trans fat.-=-

Or lived with too much stress and negativity from relatives telling him not
to smoke and to eat better. Shame and guilt aren't health-food or
health-air.

-=-There are people who can get away with smoking, drinking and living
on lard, same as some people get away with not maintaining the
brakes on their car, but most people are not or will not be so lucky.-=-

And if luck is a factor, then dispensing with some of the tone of "I KNOW
EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO" would be better for all involved, I think. If it
is possible for someone to know exactly what another person should
think/do/ingest/know, then unschooling does have it wrong.

-=- I like the
ocassional icecream, pizza, cheese, chocolate or cake. I don't eat
them all the time though.-=-

Nor does anyone do anything all the time. And the less pressure or
deprivation, the less likely they are to crave something, as so many of us have seen
with TV and foods and even, from nursing on demand days, to crave breastfeeding
or time with mom. It's the kids who are told no who want it, want it, want
it. From Freud days it's been shown that those who didn't get enough of
something might spend the rest of their lives in pursuit of that thing.

-=-There are exceptions to the rule but I firmly believe that a healthy
diet and not smoking is best for most people.-=-

It's "best" for ALL people, but it's only one factor of many, and in some
people it might not even be a significant factor. Those who die in car wrecks
or are hit by trains or are in airplanes that somehow suddenly fail to be in
the sky---It Did Not MATTER at that point what they ate, or smoked or thought.

Health food concerns can become the most horrible part of some people's
lives, I'm absolutely sure. They can obsess about molecules to the point that
they're living in a frightening twilight world of nightmare and ignorance.

Balance is better than imagined purity, especially if the imagined purity
comes with enough stress to choke a horse.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Beth

Health food concerns can become the most horrible part of some people's
> lives, I'm absolutely sure. They can obsess about molecules to the point
that
> they're living in a frightening twilight world of nightmare and ignorance.

Yes. My sister-in-law is militant about what she allows her two boys to
have. At my older nephew's first birthday party she was completely stressed
out over the fact that my brother gave my nephew a small piece of his own
birthday cake. She reads websites and natural food magazines and is
constantly aware of the 'dangers' of feeding children dairy, soy, sugar,
etc.

She also has an ulcer.

Beth

elainegh8

> -=-Some have ones that make them prone to things. Most of my
partner's> > family were dead before 60. His dad has just had a
bypass.-==-

> So is it possibly more likely that nothing one eats or does will
overcome > genetics?

You can prevent quite a lot of damage even in the susceptible by
having a sensible diet. His diet was awful, with far too much salt,
I mean waaaay to much salt.

> My whole life, doctors have said that being hopeful and happy and
less > stressed is good for health, and yet there is more stress and
unhappiness over diet > in some people's lives than anything else.

I did not say anything about becoming obsessed by diet? I think
people who become obsessed by diet are going to get obsessed about
something whether it's diet or something else. The problem isn't
diet it's their psychology.

> We've all heard stories of or seen ourselves some mom shrilly and
in a panic > snatch a lollipop out of a kid's hand or mouth with an
expression of imminent > death that might should be saved for
rattlesnakes and explosives. I> personally think that does the
child more damage (and the mom too) than half a dozen > lollipops.

I agree. No where did I advocate being a maniac diet monitor.

> -=-My grandmother died in her 70s but for a long time her quality
of life was not good as she had been a smoker.-=-

> WHY is long life better? How many people in nursing homes might
rather be > healthy, or dead, but not sickly and warehoused?

Exactly, as I said her quality of life wasn't good. Poor diet and
smoking can lead to a loss of quality of life and a level of
disability.

> -=-Mu ucnle died of brain tumour,he didn't smoke but he breathed
their> smoke for years and years.-=-

> Do you think smoke causes brain tumors? I don't think so, or the
days when > people had indoor fires as their only sources of heat
and cooking would've > been braintumor seasons for sure.

They had plenty of other things to deal with like black lung, black
lung is still a problem in some societies,it aint nice. The life
expectancy wasn't so high either and epidemiological studies weren't
done either. I think there is a connection between breathing or
consuming carcinogens over a long period of time and getting cancer.

> -=- His dad literally dropped dead at home from a massive coronary
at age 56, > he smoked> and ate too much saturated and trans fat.-=-

> Or lived with too much stress and negativity from relatives
telling him not to smoke and to eat better. Shame and guilt aren't
health-food or health-air.

No-one said a word to him actually. Maybe they should have done.

> -=-There are people who can get away with smoking, drinking and
living> on lard, same as some people get away with not maintaining
the> brakes on their car, but most people are not or will not be so
lucky.-=-

> And if luck is a factor, then dispensing with some of the tone
of "I KNOW > EXACTLY WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO" would be better for all
involved, I think. If it > is possible for someone to know
exactly what another person should> think/do/ingest/know, then
unschooling does have it wrong.

You appeared to be implying that smoking, drinking and eating plenty
of junk food did not affect people negatively. I felt I had to
answer that.

> -=- I like the> ocassional icecream, pizza, cheese, chocolate or
cake. I don't eat> them all the time though.-=-

> Nor does anyone do anything all the time. And the less pressure
or > deprivation, the less likely they are to crave something, as so
many of us have seen > with TV and foods and even, from nursing on
demand days, to crave breastfeeding > or time with mom.

>It's the kids who are told no who want it, want it, want it.

I think you're assuming I'm saying no, I'm not. I am saying
information about diet is important. Witholding information about
probable diet and lifestyle effects is as bad as trying to control
diet.

I am not advocating people going overboard, obsessions are
psychological problems. if someone is obsessed by diet then they
have a problem.

>From Freud days it's been shown that those who didn't get enough of
> something might spend the rest of their lives in pursuit of that
thing.

> -=-There are exceptions to the rule but I firmly believe that a
healthy> diet and not smoking is best for most people.-=-

> It's "best" for ALL people, but it's only one factor of many, and
>in some > people it might not even be a significant factor.
>Those who die in car wrecks > or are hit by trains or are in
>airplanes that somehow suddenly fail to be in > the sky---It Did
>Not MATTER at that point what they ate, or smoked or thought.

This is the same as saying..don't maintain the brakes on your car as
you might get run over, hit by a bus etc so then it won't matter if
you never maintained your brakes. So go ahead and let your brakes
fall apart.

> Health food concerns can become the most horrible part of some
people's > lives, I'm absolutely sure. They can obsess about
molecules to the point that > they're living in a frightening
twilight world of nightmare and ignorance.

That's a bit like blaming movies, music or TV for 'making' kids go
out and kill people. Information itself can't harm it's how people
take it on board. Dont shoot the messenger!

I never advocated 'health' foods anyway it's just another industry
making a living out of gullible people.

> Balance is better than imagined purity, especially if the imagined
>purity > comes with enough stress to choke a horse.

Again the stress and ideas of purity are from within their own
heads. It is their ideas that make the difference and no sensible
information about diet is going to make a bit of difference to them
as they are obsessive and beyond reason.

> Balance is better than imagined purity, especially if the imagined
purity > comes with enough stress to choke a horse
> Sandra

Exactly. I didn't say a word about purity. A balanced healthy diet
is a good thing with plenty of fruit and veggies. It doesn't have to
be organic. Organic is better for the environment but there's only a
small amount of studies done that say it is a small amount healthier
as it 'can' contain more nutrients.

The main thing it appears is a balanced healthy diet and that can
include some junk food, sugar, salt, pizza and cake. It can also be
very cheap, conventional and you don't have to go anywhere near a
health food shop ever if you don't want.

BWs Elaine..who is off to the shop with dd to get some chocolate AND
some crisps so there! ;) :P

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/05 1:24:48 AM, kvid@... writes:


> -=-So what I hear you saying is "Who the heck knows why
> some people live long and some don't". -=-
>
More that people's urgent ideas of what WILL lenghten life and WILL shorten
life are not as powerful as they think.

This comes right back to the whole unschooling and choices area, though.

If a mom says "TV is bad because before TV people read books, and books are
good," she is simplifying the world AND villifying something that is no more
good or bad than the books are. And so what she will do is to prevent her
children from choosing books OR TV without an added coating of how it will make
mom feel, and a glaze of guilt about having chosen the BAD thing.

If someone says "There is good food that will extend your life and save the
planet, and then there is crap and junk," that doesn't help children decide,
and it injects too much of mom and too much guilt.

If these things are true, that one is clearly and absolutely better than the
other, then a child free to choose should naturally gravitate toward the
clearly better thing.

Moms who declare some books and activities and TV shows educationa and others
"crap" are going to lose out on a joyful relationship with their children,
AND they will embue those programs, books and activities with guilt and
antagonism and fear and doubt when they would otherwise have been just plain open
choices, and the child would have chosen good things instead of choosing what mom
says, or against what mom says, or being sneaky because of what mom *will*
say.

-=-So I have been eating
everything conventional. I personally feel better when
I eat a certain way. That is my two cents .-=-

I feel better when I feel better.
Food alone doesn't make or break life.
Fear of foods probably could; fear can make or break life.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Right at the top of my post I said it wasn't personal, it was about the
topic.

> yet there is more stress and
> unhappiness over diet > in some people's lives than anything else.
>
> -=-I did not say anything about becoming obsessed by diet?-=-
>
It wasn't personal, it wasn't about you or about your post. It was about the
fact that some people stress about diet.


-=-No where did I advocate being a maniac diet monitor.
-=-

It wasn't personal. I said we have all heard stories or seen people who
did X. I didn't say that you did it or advocated it. There are six billion
people on the planet. I'm talking about some of them.

-=-I think there is a connection between breathing or
consuming carcinogens over a long period of time and getting cancer.
-=-

Well yes, but that's because "carcinogen" means "cancer-causing."


-=-You appeared to be implying that smoking, drinking and eating plenty
of junk food did not affect people negatively. I felt I had to
answer that.-=-

No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying that the stress and fear and guilt and
criticism are worse than the "evil substances" themselves. (And I've asked
for a long time for people to try not to use "junk food" in unschooling
discussions, because it's too much like dividing the world into educational and
non-educational. It hampers clear thought to label some things "stupid" or
"worthless" or "junk.")

I've never smoked, I occasionally have one single drink, and when I eat meat
it's usually chicken, white-meat, and never fried. I'm not defending evil
habits of my own at all; I'm questioning the assertions of those who seem to
believe they can control their own and other people's fates in the life-and-death
category. Living in the "when you're 90" future instead of in the moment
is not helpful to good relationships with our children now. In the absence of
good relationships with our children now, unschooling doesn't work as well as
it could.

Living peacefully and fully in the moment is more important than almost any
other factor for learning, health or peace. (I don't know why I said "almost
any other".)

-=-I think you're assuming I'm saying no, I'm not.-=-

I think you missed the "this is not personal" note at the top of my post.

This list is not for exchanges between two people, it's for hundreds of
people to consider and comment on the issues that are brought up.

-=-Witholding information about probable diet and lifestyle effects is as bad
as trying to control
diet.-=-

No one on this list is advocating withholding information.

-=-> It's "best" for ALL people, but it's only one factor of many, and
>in some > people it might not even be a significant factor.   
>Those who die in car wrecks > or are hit by trains or are in
>airplanes that somehow suddenly fail to be in > the sky---It Did
>Not MATTER at that point what they ate, or smoked or thought.

-=-This is the same as saying..don't maintain the brakes on your car as
you might get run over, hit by a bus etc so then it won't matter if
you never maintained your brakes. So go ahead and let your brakes
fall apart.-=-

No, it's saying that getting new brakes on your car every six months won't
prevent you getting broadsided, or dying in your bed of a heart-stopping
nightmare no one will ever know about.

-=-> Health food concerns can become the most horrible part of some
people's > lives, I'm absolutely sure.   They can obsess about
molecules to the point that > they're living in a frightening
twilight world of nightmare and ignorance. 

-=-That's a bit like blaming movies, music or TV for 'making' kids go
out and kill people. Information itself can't harm it's how people
take it on board. Dont shoot the messenger!-=-

I don't see the parallel.
If the messenger is causing fear and strife, the messenger should be reasoned
with.

http://sandradodd.com/food

There's a collection of some of the best things written about food on this
list and related exchanges over the past few years. Mostly, it's about kids
and choices and parents letting go of fears and controls.

It's the same kind of message unschoolers share and benefit from in areas of
TV and music, movies and video games, reading, writing...

-=-The main thing it appears is a balanced healthy diet and that can
include some junk food, sugar, salt, pizza and cake. It can also be
very cheap, conventional and you don't have to go anywhere near a
health food shop ever if you don't want.-=-

Yes. And incrementally better is doable for anyone, no matter how rich or
poor or knowledgeable or nervous. Making the best choice in the moment, being
mindful and present--that's what will help unschooling unfold richly and
fully.

Sandra










[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/05 9:55:08 AM, saremca@... writes:


> My sister-in-law is militant about what she allows her two boys to
> have.  At my older nephew's first birthday party she was completely stressed
> out over the fact that my brother gave my nephew a small piece of his own
> birthday cake.
>

My boys went to a 6th birthday party once which was mostly adult-conversation
centered, and the kids were put at the little-kid table, not the real table
(like little plastic picnic table), and with the cake ON the table, they were
told they had to eat carrot sticks and celery sticks before they could have
cake.

At a party, ceremonial "clean your plate or you can't have dessert."

That wasn't about health. That was about control.

But sometimes what's called health is really about control.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> -=-The main difference I notice is portions today are different.  I have my
> grandparents' juice glasses, and they are quite small.  The bowls and
> saucers in the set of dishes I have are smaller than what you would get if you
> bought new ones.  I've often thought that these smaller dishers did cause them to
> eat less at a time.-=-
>

This morning on one of the news shows they talked about a study done on
people who shop at Costco and Sam's Club. They're eating more food than they
meant to because they HAVE more food.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/2005 9:36:43 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

So is it possibly more likely that nothing one eats or does will overcome
genetics?



~~~

I think smoking is bad no matter what your genetics. Constricts the blood
vessels which can make you more susceptible to all kinds of problems, from
leathery skin to colon cancer.

I don't know if dipping and chewing tobacco has the same effects, but I knew
a 22 yo former relative got mouth cancer from dipping.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/2005 9:36:43 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

Health food concerns can become the most horrible part of some people's
lives, I'm absolutely sure. They can obsess about molecules to the point
that
they're living in a frightening twilight world of nightmare and ignorance.





~~~

This is so great. I wish some people I know could read it.

Karen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

> At a party, ceremonial "clean your plate or you can't have
dessert."
>


A few weeks ago, Seamus and i went to Uno to get fancy pizza. They
have the best cheesecake there, really huge piece. I knew the pizza
would take awhile, and knew we wanted to share a piece of
cheesecake, so i asked the waiter to bring it first. I figured if we
got full, we could always take the pizza home.

There is the quote "Life is short, eat dessert first!" but yet
parents don't like to apply that to kids. Maybe they think kids have
all the time in the world. I think they should remember there is no
guarantee that they'll grow up.

Which brings me to something else i've been thinking about. Why does
it bother me so much when newbies come here and want assurances that
their child WILL go to college, WILL be "successful", WILL get a
good job? I think its because, for us, we just dont live in the
future so much anymore. I rarely ask my son anymore what he wants to
be when he grows up. It seems rather silly to decide on that now, or
to worry about it now. Even if i knew that unschooling would make it
*more* difficult for my child in the future, i would still unschool,
because that is what is causing him maximum happiness right now. Why
ruin the present for a future that isnt guaranteed? That's why i
couldnt wrap my mind around the need for scientific proof that
unschooling works, or why anyone would need more proof than just
looking at their kid and seeing how happy they are.


Katherine

Deb

--- In [email protected], Ann <ann_mv05@y...>
wrote:
> My mother still eats spam:0) It's one of her favorite meals,
>spam, eggs and biscutis.
> Ann
>
Oh now I've got the MOnty Python Spam and Eggs skit stuck in my head!
--Deb

frozenandcold

<<<Is it possible not to use the word "crap" in reference to food,
please?
It's a cheap and easy way for parents to condemn foods and make their
kids
feel, well... like crap.>>>>>


Okay, I have to admit that I thought this was a little nit picky BUT
it has caused me to turn over in my mind some of my attitudes about
food and how that DOES effect my kids.

My mom died a few years ago, from cancer. It was a sad and ugly way
to die. Since then I have read countless books on health, sickness,
nutrition deficiency, toxicity, etc. I actually became a vegetarian
when my mom was first diagnosed with metasticized cancer ten years
ago. I was realizing this morning, after reading all of Sandras great
posts, that I do push my paranoia of disease and sickness on my kids,
sometimes in subtle ways and sometimes in not so subtle ways. And
shame is definitely a factor sometimes.

I guess I just wanted to say thank you to all of you at these e-lists
that make us think about our choices and help make us all more mindful
of how we live. Unschooling is about living in the moment in a
joyful, peaceful way and I realize I still have some work to do!! I
think I spend far too much time worrying about the future and not
living in the moment. I am going to stop right now, this very
minute. I don't have a guarantee of tomorrow so today my kids and
myself are going to live JOYFULLY and I am going to sip on my triple
shot latte and enjoy every minute of it without an ounce of guilt (I
drink them everyday but worry all the time about what it is doing to
my body).

Heidi

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/18/05 1:26:01 PM, fivefreebirds@... writes:


> -=-Okay, I have to admit that I thought this was a little nit picky BUT
> it has caused me to turn over in my mind some of my attitudes about
> food and how that DOES effect my kids. -=-
>
Thanks for understanding, and for thinking about it.

I still tell Marty sometimes that rap music leads to a life of crime, as does
wearing pants really low. He listens to the music, but he doesn't wear his
pants low, so he's only MAYBE on a path to prison (by my stated estimations).
I say it as a joke, but he knows I don't like rap, and so he makes a joke in
return and arranges for different music when the song's over, or whatever, as
appropriate.

He knows I'm just expressing "I don't like that music much" in a light-ish
way.

My cousin, who grew up with me, did exactly to her kids what was done to us.
She condemned their music, and them and said "That's not music." It puts a
giant wedge between parents and children at best, and a stake in the heart of
the child's joy at worst. Somewhere in there, though, big chunks of
metaphorical wood are being stuck where they don't need to be. <g>

-=-My mom died a few years ago, from cancer.  It was a sad and ugly way
to die.  Since then I have read countless books on health, sickness,
nutrition deficiency, toxicity, etc.  I actually became a vegetarian
when my mom was first diagnosed with metasticized cancer ten years
ago.-=-

If anyone knows more details of this case, which is maybe too old to find,
I'd be interested. But in a psychology class long ago we were told, in the
area of any substance being dangerous in sufficient amounts, that a young woman's
father died, and she started drinking water. She drank and drank until she
died a few days later. Her kidneys weren't working and there was water in
her lungs. She drowned herself from the inside, overloaded her system--even
water, we were told, can kill you if you don't balance things out.

Reactions to death and disease are interesting, but the attempted magic
doesn't bring the people back. There's a movie--I would not have been able to
watch it if I still had very young children, so beware--but it involves a young
boy trying to bring some people back from death or exile during the German
occupation of Poland. Only the strong of heart (and no nursing mothers, I think)
should watch it, but it's called Edges of the Lord and is on DVD. IMBD says
right up top: " Powerful, haunting, emotionally draining." It has Haley Joel
Osment, Willem Dafoe, Liam Hess (a little boy who's on TV in the U.K. but
unknown outside of that, I think) and lots of Poles. Another review said "as
powerful and memorable as Schindler's List or the Pianist, and is certainly not
for young children."

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Another review said "as
> powerful and memorable as Schindler's List or the Pianist, and is
>certainly not
> for young children."
>
> Sandra
Oh dear - I'll have to skip it probably then...I bawled the rest of
the night after seeing Schindler's List...doesn't help that both my
paternal grandparents were Eastern European Jews who still had family
in that area when WWII hit (Papoo and Grandma came to the US
individually as young adults before WWI and met up here in the US).

--Deb

Betsy Hill

**and she started drinking water. She drank and drank until she
died a few days later.**

There's a fraternity hazing case from Chico State that's going to trial
right now (?), at least I glimpsed it on the news recently. Pushing a
person to drink too much water can kill them, and did in this case, by
lowering sodium levels so much that some kind of systemic failure occured.

Betsy

PS There's a funny internet email about anhydrous dioxide (?) and how
many criminals drink it every day and even bathe in it.

frozenandcold

<<<<Reactions to death and disease are interesting, but the attempted
magic
doesn't bring the people back. >>>>>


So true!! And neither does making my kids feel bad about non-
nutritious food choices make them eat more nutritious food!!
Something else I am coming to realize is that emotional and
psychological health is just as or more important than physical
health!!

A couple years ago when Ren and I were having a discussion on health
and my coffee habit she mentioned that there IS something to emotional
health and that if I enjoyed coffee that much and it made me feel good
then I shouldn't feel bad about drinking it because it was possibly
good for my emotional health. I think she is very right and it is all
part of the process of getting rid of black and white thinking!!

Heidi

frozenandcold

<<<<<<She drank and drank until she
died a few days later. Her kidneys weren't working and there was water
in
her lungs. She drowned herself from the inside, overloaded her system--
even
water, we were told, can kill you if you don't balance things out.>>c>>


This just made me think of our societies general thinking on how
certain actions bring certain results. Kind of like what we have been
discussing, "If you do _____, then _______will happen." Consequently
people start thinking well if _______will happen when I do ______ well
then A LOT of _______will happen when I do A LOT of______.

It got me thinking about traditional parenting thinking.....If you do
______, then ______will happen, as if kids are computers or
something.

I don't know why this got me thinking about the following but.....in
our newspaper yesterday there was a picture of a girl standing out by
the highway holding a big sign that said "I don't do my homework and I
act up in school, so my parents are preparing me for my future." It
happened in Oklahoma somewhere.

I was so sickened by it but I was glad that some people had called in
to social services and reported psychological abuse, troopers
responded and made her leave (her mom was with her too). One woman
said "The parents of that girl need more education than she does if
they can't see that the worst scenario in this case is to kill their
daughter psychologically." A psychologist made the comment that such
punishment could do extreme emotional damage, he thought maybe they
should try and catch her when she was being good!

I guess I thought this was another case of extreme thinking on the
action/results thing.

Heidi

[email protected]

> It got me thinking about traditional parenting thinking.....If you do
> ______, then ______will happen, as if kids are computers or
> something. 
>
-=- One woman
said "The parents of that girl need more education than she does if
they can't see that the worst scenario in this case is to kill their
daughter psychologically." -=-

Whether it's worse than psychological death or not, another scenario is
suicide.
Charles Montoya and Alice Law killed themselves at 14 and 15, when we were
kids--one in 8th grade and the other in 9th.

I didn't judge myself harshly when my mom said her stupid things, I just
decide early on that SHE wasn't very nice or very smart, and not worth me worrying
so hard about. I didn't trust her opinion a bit. But when she would say
"If you do that, you'll get hurt," she said it with such an edge that I started
to know she WANTED me to get hurt so she could say "I told you so." Her
warnings were more like threats, or curses. She didn't intend it, but her
emotions were so raw and wrong it just came out that way. She was a wad of
jealousy and resentment and vague confusion. I don't want to do things that my
kids will carry around and take out on their kids. Casual cruelty and weird
little threats needed to end with me.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler Waynforth

--- In [email protected], tuckervill2@a... wrote:
>
>
> I think smoking is bad no matter what your genetics. Constricts the
blood
> vessels which can make you more susceptible to all kinds of
problems, from
> leathery skin to colon cancer.
>
> I don't know if dipping and chewing tobacco has the same effects,
but I knew
> a 22 yo former relative got mouth cancer from dipping.
>
> Karen
>
Here is a site discussing the benefits of smoking:
http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm . It is a Virginia not
for profit group that describes itself as "The scientific Archive
that debunks 50 years of superstitions on smoking". Here is another
site, with less of a political bias:
http://www.quit.org.au/quit/FandI/fandi/c03s14.htm (it is an
Australian quit smoking site).

I also can vaguely, hauntingly, remember something talking about an
immediate health boost to smoking such that if you started smoking at
80 you would have greater longevity than those who were 80 and never
smoked. Something about the sssociated increase in blood pressure,
but, I can't find anything to back that vague memory up.

Not that I'm arguing that people should start smoking to avoid
Alzheimers, but there is some evidence that even smoking isn't
completely devoid of positive effects.

Schuyler

Joyce Fetteroll

On Nov 18, 2005, at 4:11 PM, SandraDodd@... wrote:

> She drank and drank until she
> died a few days later.

It's becoming more common with marathon runners. They've been told
repeatedly to keep themselves hydrated and some have gone to such an
extreme that they drink too much.

Here's something from the New York Road Runners site:

http://www.nyrrc.org/training/heattips.html

> Don�t drink too much. Overhydrating before and during exercise can
> cause a dangerous condition known as hyponatremia (water
> intoxication). This drop in the body�s sodium levels can cause
> nausea, fatigue, vomiting, weakness, and in the most severe cases,
> seizures, coma, and death. To avoid hyponatremia, do not overdrink,
> include pretzels or a salted bagel in your pre-run meal, and use a
> sports drink that contains sodium. During exercise, drink no more
> than a cup of fluid every 15 to 20 minutes.
The big problem for the runners is that the medical people don't
recognize hyponatremia and think from the symptoms its dehydration so
they tell them to drink water. Ironically they say no one has died in
a race from dehydration but there have been several deaths from
hyponatremia.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elainegh8

Why do some people do that? Have a party supposedly for the children
but in reality it's for themselves? It just seems so dishonest.

BWs Elaine

> My boys went to a 6th birthday party once which was mostly adult-
conversation > centered, and the kids were put at the little-kid
table, not the real table > (like little plastic picnic table), and
with the cake ON the table, they were > told they had to eat carrot
sticks and celery sticks before they could have > cake.
>
> At a party, ceremonial "clean your plate or you can't have
dessert."> That wasn't about health. That was about control.
>
> But sometimes what's called health is really about control.
>
> Sandra

elainegh8

Hi
I've heard of chewing tobbaco but what's dipping tobbaco.

BWs Elaine, confused Brit


> I don't know if dipping and chewing tobacco has the same effects,
but I knew
> a 22 yo former relative got mouth cancer from dipping.
>
> Karen

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/05 9:24:06 AM, elainegh8@... writes:


> Why do some people do that? Have a party supposedly for the children
> but in reality it's for themselves? It just seems so dishonest.
>

Maybe because the parents' emotions are all in a twist. They're needy, of
attention and power and spotlight and credit.

"It is by giving that you receive" some guy said (St. Francis, Jesus, Santa
Claus... some or all of them).

Some parents want to be thought great parents by their friends and relatives.
They do what they think great parents do, which is limit and say no and
control and then as a reward they talk about the kids as though they're not in
the room. And like the parade watchers in The Emperor's New Clothes, the
other parents say "Oooh, you're a great parent," because then they want to hear
the same thing back.

It's easier and more honest to just BE attentive to kids than to put up an
elaborate screen of pretending to really care.

And I guess it's not pretending, to just define the world in such a way that
children are small and stupid and parents are wise and knowledgeable. It's
common belief

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

elainegh8

As well as athletes, and people taking ecstacy, this is also known
problem that can happen with some people who suffer from
schizophrenia. Unfortunately it's taking a while for some
professionals to become aware of it and ensure people are monitored
for this for their own safety.

BWs Elaine

> <<<<<<She drank and drank until she
> died a few days later. Her kidneys weren't working and there was
water
> in
> her lungs. She drowned herself from the inside, overloaded her
system--
> even
> water, we were told, can kill you if you don't balance things
out.>>c>>