[email protected]

Just before she died, Amala had been making promising progress towards
speech, giving voice to the babbling and cooing noises that mark the first stage in
a normal child's learning to talk. With Kamala, progress was much slower but
Singh persevered. After three years, Kamala had mastered a small vocabulary of
about a dozen words. After several more years, her vocabulary had increased to
about 40. This was far more than Itard had managed with Victor (and using far
less intensive training methods), but not really much of a victory for Singh.
To compare, a normal two-year-old child, at the peak of its language
learning, would find it easy to pick up 40 new words in a single week. Also, Kamala's
words were only partly-formed and her grammar stilted. The Hindi word for
medicine is ashad but Kamala would only pronounce half the word, saying "ud".
Likewise, she would say bha for bhat (rice), bil for biral (cat) and tha for thala
(plate).

Singh made much of an incident when Kamala was given some dolls to play with
and then a box to keep them in. Kamala shut the dolls away and "proudly" told
the other children in the orphanage: "Bak-poo-voo." Singh interpreted this
utterance as standing for "Baksa-pootool-vootara," — Hindi for
"Box-doll-inside." While this broken sentence marks a significant step forward for a girl who
was little more than a wolf cub a few years earlier — showing not just a use of
language but the first glimmerings of a social awareness - Kamala's speech
still fell a long way short of normally-reared children.

. . . .



Gesell wondered whether, with a few more years, Kamala would have caught up
eventually with other normal children or whether the traumas of her early years
had left her somehow permanently stunted. The question was never answered
because in 1929, Kamala caught typhoid and died. Her last words to Singh's wife —
possibly too poignant to be true — were said to have been: "Mama, the little
one hurts."

(She died at 16, with some language. More here:
http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=kamala
And her sister died while still very young.)

More, for those interested:


A list of isolated, confined and feral children

http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php

This is really interesting.

There's a movie about Victor, an 18th century French boy. Holly and I
watched it a few years back.

-=-"The Wild Child" was directed by Francois Truffaut and released in 1970.
Truffaut has made some extraordinary movies, such as the Antoine Doinel series
and "Jules et Jim." Unfortunately, this movie is given relatively little
recognition, even though it truly is first-rate. Based on a true story, the movie
concerns Victor, l'enfant sauvage - a boy found in the wilds of France.
Truffaut cast himself as Dr. Jean Itard an 18th century physician who helps "tame"
and educate the boy. Initially branded an "idiot" and uneducable by local
townspeople, Victor is helped immensely by Dr. Itard through his humane treatment.

-=-
The story is fascinating and quite gripping. In addition, the movie raises
interesting questions regarding "civilized" behavior and ethics, as it compares
Victor to various people in the town. Although similar stories has been told
elsewhere (e.g., Herzog's "Every Man for Himself"), Truffaut manages to put
his own interesting spin on the tale. Further, his direction is masterful, and
he won Best Director from the National Board of Review. The film was made in
black and white, which adds great realism to the story - it looks terrific (It
won Best Cinematography from the National Society of Film Critics).-=-

Doesn't seem Nell is based on a true story, but on a play (which wasn't based
on a true story).

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Debi

Some more information on language aquisition in feral children....

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2112gchild.html

http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=genie


SandraDodd@... wrote:

>Just before she died, Amala had been making promising progress towards
>speech, giving voice to the babbling and cooing noises that mark the first stage in
>a normal child's learning to talk. With Kamala, progress was much slower but
>Singh persevered. After three years, Kamala had mastered a small vocabulary of
>about a dozen words. After several more years, her vocabulary had increased to
>about 40. This was far more than Itard had managed with Victor (and using far
>less intensive training methods), but not really much of a victory for Singh.
>To compare, a normal two-year-old child, at the peak of its language
>learning, would find it easy to pick up 40 new words in a single week.
>

(snip)

elainegh8

There are much more modern cases than this but I can't remember the
names. One girl was in the USA I know that for sure. The other, a
boy, was in an eastern european country I think, and had taken up
with a pack of dogs.

Btw I wasn't arguing against learning being a natural thing for a
human being but it does appear that for some things human beings
have to be exposed to by a certain age. By expose I don't mean in
any way taught I mean to be present to. It is natural for a young
child to be with adults, to be abandoned is an unatural phenomena.

For many mammals not all things are instinct and certain knowledge
and behaviour is passed on from by the parent/parents. I don't mean
taught.

BWs Elaine


> Just before she died, Amala had been making promising progress
towards
> speech, giving voice to the babbling and cooing noises that mark
the first stage in
> a normal child's learning to talk. With Kamala, progress was much
slower but
> Singh persevered. After three years, Kamala had mastered a small
vocabulary of
> about a dozen words. After several more years, her vocabulary had
increased to
> about 40. This was far more than Itard had managed with Victor
(and using far
> less intensive training methods), but not really much of a victory
for Singh.
> To compare, a normal two-year-old child, at the peak of its
language
> learning, would find it easy to pick up 40 new words in a single
week. Also, Kamala's
> words were only partly-formed and her grammar stilted. The Hindi
word for
> medicine is ashad but Kamala would only pronounce half the word,
saying "ud".
> Likewise, she would say bha for bhat (rice), bil for biral (cat)
and tha for thala
> (plate).
>
> Singh made much of an incident when Kamala was given some dolls
to play with
> and then a box to keep them in. Kamala shut the dolls away
and "proudly" told
> the other children in the orphanage: "Bak-poo-voo." Singh
interpreted this
> utterance as standing for "Baksa-pootool-vootara," â€" Hindi for
> "Box-doll-inside." While this broken sentence marks a significant
step forward for a girl who
> was little more than a wolf cub a few years earlier â€" showing
not just a use of
> language but the first glimmerings of a social awareness -
Kamala's speech
> still fell a long way short of normally-reared children.
>
> . . . .
>
>
>
> Gesell wondered whether, with a few more years, Kamala would have
caught up
> eventually with other normal children or whether the traumas of
her early years
> had left her somehow permanently stunted. The question was never
answered
> because in 1929, Kamala caught typhoid and died. Her last words to
Singh's wife â€"
> possibly too poignant to be true â€" were said to have
been: "Mama, the little
> one hurts."
>
> (She died at 16, with some language. More here:
> http://www.feralchildren.com/en/showchild.php?ch=kamala
> And her sister died while still very young.)
>
> More, for those interested:
>
>
> A list of isolated, confined and feral children
>
> http://www.feralchildren.com/en/children.php
>
> This is really interesting.
>
> There's a movie about Victor, an 18th century French boy. Holly
and I
> watched it a few years back.
>
> -=-"The Wild Child" was directed by Francois Truffaut and released
in 1970.
> Truffaut has made some extraordinary movies, such as the Antoine
Doinel series
> and "Jules et Jim." Unfortunately, this movie is given relatively
little
> recognition, even though it truly is first-rate. Based on a true
story, the movie
> concerns Victor, l'enfant sauvage - a boy found in the wilds of
France.
> Truffaut cast himself as Dr. Jean Itard an 18th century physician
who helps "tame"
> and educate the boy. Initially branded an "idiot" and uneducable
by local
> townspeople, Victor is helped immensely by Dr. Itard through his
humane treatment.
>
> -=-
> The story is fascinating and quite gripping. In addition, the
movie raises
> interesting questions regarding "civilized" behavior and ethics,
as it compares
> Victor to various people in the town. Although similar stories has
been told
> elsewhere (e.g., Herzog's "Every Man for Himself"), Truffaut
manages to put
> his own interesting spin on the tale. Further, his direction is
masterful, and
> he won Best Director from the National Board of Review. The film
was made in
> black and white, which adds great realism to the story - it looks
terrific (It
> won Best Cinematography from the National Society of Film
Critics).-=-
>
> Doesn't seem Nell is based on a true story, but on a play (which
wasn't based
> on a true story).
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

elainegh8

I think the lack of adequate language aquisition in the extreme cases
of isolated/abandoned children strengthens the argument for children
needing to be close to families (not necessarily trad families) not
far apart as in school.

BWs Elaine

elainegh8

What I also meant to say was that this does not mean humans aren't
born with the mechanisms ready to learn language either. What I
think it means at its core is that human beings need other human
beings to be able to develop fully.

We need to be around each other, hey we need to hang out together.
We are after all social mammals, we don't go off immediately after
we're born, and live on our own, only seeing other human beings for
mating purposes. The truly independent human being is a myth, we
need each other.

BWs Elaine

> I think the lack of adequate language aquisition in the extreme
cases
> of isolated/abandoned children strengthens the argument for
children
> needing to be close to families (not necessarily trad families)
not
> far apart as in school.
>
> BWs Elaine
>

[email protected]

> -=-It is natural for a young
> child to be with adults, to be abandoned is an unatural phenomena.-=-
>
And without arranging for the abandonment of some
known-to-be-bright-and-normal infants, there's not only a control group, but there's a liklihood that the
abandoned babies were considered defective, or that the parents were somehow
defective mentally or emotionally, and those things can be passed on even
without the "nurture" issue of being raised by coyotes or whatever.

Poor babies, in any case.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ren Allen

I did post that a child wouldn't aquire language (I may have said
speech) in the event that they (one child) were dropped on a desert
island with a bunch of books.

I don't believe they'd have any need for speech, though they may learn
to communicate with monkeys or dolphins.:)

If there was more than one human, yes, they'd learn speech, but it
would be a new language of course.

I watched a very lengthy PBS special about Genie, many years ago. She
was the abused child that was locked up until the age of 13. I really
don't think she's a good case to look at for whether or not a human
could aquire speech later on.
She was turned into a research piece. Her life was forfeit to the
researchers. She was actually making progress into speech, until the
grant money was pulled and she got taken from the family she'd learned
to trust. She reverted back to more feral behavior.

Many, many things went wrong in her case and it IS entirely possible
that in a trusting, loving environment, she eventually would have
learned speech and aquired some language. It's a heartbreaking story
at best.

Ren