What do you do with a child who doesn't want to learn?
mommyof7plus1
Hi,
I just subscribed to this list, although I have lurked on the list in
the past. I will say upfront that I am not an unschooler although I do
somewhat agree with the philosophy of unschooling.
I have been struggling with homeschooling my 8yob. I recently posted
about it on some traditional homeschooling discussion boards and I did
not recieve much help. Many of them struggle with similar issues but
no one has much in the way of solutions for the problems. I have come
to the conclusion that many homeschoolers "live their lives in quiet
desperation". Anyhow, I would like to know how unschoolers would relpy
to the following post:
"I'm about at my wits end with my son. He is 8 and a half and can
barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
because he has no desire to learn how to read. His sister is 18 months
younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
learning on her own. My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.
I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
them how to read. Some learned faster than others but they all had a
desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
homeschooling."
Susan
I just subscribed to this list, although I have lurked on the list in
the past. I will say upfront that I am not an unschooler although I do
somewhat agree with the philosophy of unschooling.
I have been struggling with homeschooling my 8yob. I recently posted
about it on some traditional homeschooling discussion boards and I did
not recieve much help. Many of them struggle with similar issues but
no one has much in the way of solutions for the problems. I have come
to the conclusion that many homeschoolers "live their lives in quiet
desperation". Anyhow, I would like to know how unschoolers would relpy
to the following post:
"I'm about at my wits end with my son. He is 8 and a half and can
barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
because he has no desire to learn how to read. His sister is 18 months
younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
learning on her own. My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.
I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
them how to read. Some learned faster than others but they all had a
desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
homeschooling."
Susan
Angela
<<"I'm about at my wits end with my son. He is 8 and a half and can
barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
because he has no desire to learn how to read.>>
What if your husband wanted you to learn about auto mechanics and you had no
interest in it. What if he made you sit down every day to try to teach you
about auto mechanics. He might think that evryone drives cars and should
know the basics on how to care for them. How would you feel about him if he
forced you to sit for his auto mechanic lessons? Had you even a tiny bit of
interests in one aspect of auto mechanics do you think his forcing you to
sit for lesson about it might drive that interest out of you? Would you
willingly pick up books/vidoes on auto mechanics in your spare time after
your auto mechanic lessons?
What it really boils down to is respecting where your son is now and what
his interests are. Some children are truly not ready to learn to read at
8.5. (esp. boys) If he wasn't ready to walk yet at 12 months, would you make
him take walking lessons, or would you wait until he was ready and showed an
interest in walking and then support him?
<<His sister is 18 months
younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
learning on her own.>>
It's really important to NOT compare your children. Your son may end up
feeling resentment toward your dd because he cant' keep up with her and your
dd may resent it as well. Please don't compare them. Even in school, in
the same class, there are children who can read and children who cannot read
at the same level or not at all. The children who can't keep up with the
average get sent to remedial reading and often end up feeling stupid and
incapable of learning to read. It can be traumatic.
<< My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.>>
My kids are now 9 and 10 and neither one of them reads books regularly. It
is amazing to me how they have taught themselves to read however and how
they have continued to get better at it without ever reading a book. They
read on the computer, and in stores, on boxes, and catalogs, email, etc. My
9 yo has read one chapter book in her life and my 10 yo has not read any.
They are both good spellers and writers even though they don't enjoy reading
very much. They still love to have me read to them. They love books on
tape. They have amazing vocabularies. I am not writing this so you can
compare your child and think he isn't measuring up. I am writing it to let
you know that reading will happen for him in time if you support his
interests; keep him surrounded with print and make reading a joyous thing.
Read to him often. Help him write emails to his grandmas on his own email
account if he'd like it. Play games with him and help him when he needs
help reading for them. Buy him magazine that are about his interests. Read
them TO him.
<<I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
them how to read.>>
I have two children that I helped to learn to read by answering their
questions and helping them when they wanted the help. I take no credit for
teaching them. They just learned and it was amazing to me. They did it
when they were interested and at their own speed. They are fine.
<<Some learned faster than others but they all had a
desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
homeschooling.">>
I don't think you can teach someone anything that they aren't interested in.
It just doesn't work that way. You can force them to memorize something for
the test, but it isn't real learning. I say give him time and space. And
he may need more time now after trying to force him before he was interested
and ready. Good luck.
Angela
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
because he has no desire to learn how to read.>>
What if your husband wanted you to learn about auto mechanics and you had no
interest in it. What if he made you sit down every day to try to teach you
about auto mechanics. He might think that evryone drives cars and should
know the basics on how to care for them. How would you feel about him if he
forced you to sit for his auto mechanic lessons? Had you even a tiny bit of
interests in one aspect of auto mechanics do you think his forcing you to
sit for lesson about it might drive that interest out of you? Would you
willingly pick up books/vidoes on auto mechanics in your spare time after
your auto mechanic lessons?
What it really boils down to is respecting where your son is now and what
his interests are. Some children are truly not ready to learn to read at
8.5. (esp. boys) If he wasn't ready to walk yet at 12 months, would you make
him take walking lessons, or would you wait until he was ready and showed an
interest in walking and then support him?
<<His sister is 18 months
younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
learning on her own.>>
It's really important to NOT compare your children. Your son may end up
feeling resentment toward your dd because he cant' keep up with her and your
dd may resent it as well. Please don't compare them. Even in school, in
the same class, there are children who can read and children who cannot read
at the same level or not at all. The children who can't keep up with the
average get sent to remedial reading and often end up feeling stupid and
incapable of learning to read. It can be traumatic.
<< My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.>>
My kids are now 9 and 10 and neither one of them reads books regularly. It
is amazing to me how they have taught themselves to read however and how
they have continued to get better at it without ever reading a book. They
read on the computer, and in stores, on boxes, and catalogs, email, etc. My
9 yo has read one chapter book in her life and my 10 yo has not read any.
They are both good spellers and writers even though they don't enjoy reading
very much. They still love to have me read to them. They love books on
tape. They have amazing vocabularies. I am not writing this so you can
compare your child and think he isn't measuring up. I am writing it to let
you know that reading will happen for him in time if you support his
interests; keep him surrounded with print and make reading a joyous thing.
Read to him often. Help him write emails to his grandmas on his own email
account if he'd like it. Play games with him and help him when he needs
help reading for them. Buy him magazine that are about his interests. Read
them TO him.
<<I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
them how to read.>>
I have two children that I helped to learn to read by answering their
questions and helping them when they wanted the help. I take no credit for
teaching them. They just learned and it was amazing to me. They did it
when they were interested and at their own speed. They are fine.
<<Some learned faster than others but they all had a
desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
homeschooling.">>
I don't think you can teach someone anything that they aren't interested in.
It just doesn't work that way. You can force them to memorize something for
the test, but it isn't real learning. I say give him time and space. And
he may need more time now after trying to force him before he was interested
and ready. Good luck.
Angela
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/05 9:43:12 AM, scraven@... writes:
That would make a difference to me.
-=- Many of them struggle with similar issues but
no one has much in the way of solutions for the problems.-=-
Continuing to pressure him with lessons is not a solution to that problem.
The only solution is to stop the lessons and go with what he can do, and help
him find things he IS interested in.
-=- I have come
to the conclusion that many homeschoolers "live their lives in quiet
desperation".-=-
Unschoolers do not live their lives in quiet desperation.
If you're determined to be a homeschooler and to make yourself and your
children unhappy with reading lessons, that is a choice you will be making
yourself.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
There are many stories there of children learning to read naturally and
happily and peacefully.
-=-I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
them how to read. Some learned faster than others but they all had a
desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
homeschooling.-=-
Frankly, discussing children in such terms as being a child who "doesn't want
to learn" will ruin the tone of this list.
We CAN help you, if you want to change, but if you insist that your child is
just lazy and uncooperative, you will be doing him harm that this list should
not and cannot support or encourage.
If that's NOT your writing, it's not good to have brought it here in a
confusing way.
If that IS your writing, why the quotation marks?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Anyhow, I would like to know how unschoolers would relpyIs that post from you, Susan, or from someone not on this list at all?
> to the following post:
>
That would make a difference to me.
-=- Many of them struggle with similar issues but
no one has much in the way of solutions for the problems.-=-
Continuing to pressure him with lessons is not a solution to that problem.
The only solution is to stop the lessons and go with what he can do, and help
him find things he IS interested in.
-=- I have come
to the conclusion that many homeschoolers "live their lives in quiet
desperation".-=-
Unschoolers do not live their lives in quiet desperation.
If you're determined to be a homeschooler and to make yourself and your
children unhappy with reading lessons, that is a choice you will be making
yourself.
http://sandradodd.com/reading
There are many stories there of children learning to read naturally and
happily and peacefully.
-=-I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
them how to read. Some learned faster than others but they all had a
desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
homeschooling.-=-
Frankly, discussing children in such terms as being a child who "doesn't want
to learn" will ruin the tone of this list.
We CAN help you, if you want to change, but if you insist that your child is
just lazy and uncooperative, you will be doing him harm that this list should
not and cannot support or encourage.
If that's NOT your writing, it's not good to have brought it here in a
confusing way.
If that IS your writing, why the quotation marks?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 8, 2005, at 11:29 AM, mommyof7plus1 wrote:
requirement that children must read by a certain age, then it is a
problem if they aren't reading by then.
The following is going to be hard for you. It is going to turn all
that you think you know about what kids need in order to learn upside
down.
If you remove the artificial requirement that he be reading now, then
there is no problem. If you remove the necessity to learn only (or
primarily) through reading, then there is no problem.
Reading is not the be all and end all of learning. Other ways of
learning are not distant seconds to reading.
What reading is to learning is an efficient way for one teacher to
get information into a room full of kids. Schools depend on kids
reading *not* because it's best learning method but because it makes
schools run efficiently. (Even teachers will say the best way to
learn is by doing. And unschoolers would add doing what they love and
are curious about. But can you imagine one teacher being able to
manage a room full of kids learning by doing when she needs to
demonstrate they learned x, y, and z by the end of the school year?)
There's no reason to try to recreate school at home when the methods
schools use are meant primarily to make schools run and secondarily
to show that learning is happening (happening long enough to be
regurgitated for a test).
Unschoolers do not depend on reading for their kids to learn. *And
unschooled kids learn just fine.* The learning that unschoolers do
looks *different*. It looks like play. But it is not only just as
effective, it's *more* because kids are absorbing what fascinates
them in ways that are natural to their personalities.
When kids are allowed to read when they want to, when they find it
meaningful for them, when their brains are developmentally ready,
when they have pleasant associations with reading then kids do learn
to read. It happens usually between 6 and 8 but can be earlier and
can be later. Thirteen is not an unusual age to learn to read. (Kids
who learn at 13 are not 7 years behind in skills. They quickly are
reading at age level.)
In the mean time they are learning *just fine* in other ways:
listening to people, talking, watching TV, listening to music, doing
things hands on, *analyzing*, *making connections* and so on.
with books unpleasant for him, you will have the exact same problem
schools do: he will either decide there's something wrong with him
and he can't read, or he will decide that reading is dumb and he
never wants to read.
their kids to read and their kids learn to read anyway. So there's
something else going on.
What's going on is that learning to read is no more difficult than
learning to speak. (I suspect it's quite a bit easier!) Learning to
read happens when reading is a natural, useful (to *them*) and
unstressful part of their environment: signs, video games and gaming
guides, stories, movies based on books, books on tape and so on and
so on.
This is just a guess but it seems to fit what unschoolers see with
children. There seem to be a number of brain areas involved in
reading. Not all of them mature at the same rate and those brain
areas are also used for things other than reading. When a child isn't
reading by 12 what makes sense is that one of those brain area is not
ready. They've been using the other brain areas involved in reading
for other things so they're all up and running. And when that last
brain area is mature then wham the kid's reading. It doesn't always
happen that way, but it does for a fair number. For others it's more
gradual but once they're brains are ready (and their experiences with
reading have been positive) they go from not reading to reading at
age level within a few months.
learn to read earlier than boys.
Unschoolers would say look at who he is rather than who is is not and
rather than holding him against the yardstick of who you want him to
become. If you can look at him as being perfect at being 8 rather
than an imperfect adult you will help both of you and your
relationship and his learning tremendously. If you see that each day
he is learning how to be 8 years + 1 day and then 8 years + 2 days
until he's 9 and he will be a perfect 9 year old, then you won't be
struggling against who he is right now.
If you treat him as doing the best he can -- after a period of
transition since he's been absorbing the message that he's not as
good as you want him to be for a long time -- he will do the best he
can. He will still make mistakes but they will be honest mistakes of
a growing person who is trying to figure out the world.
hundreds? thousands? of years.
reached the point where they realized that making a child learn is
not only impossible but turns mother and child into adversaries. If
you wish to hold on to the necessity of teaching a child it would be
better to send him to school so at least he could have a haven to
come home to.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He is 8 and a half and canWhich is exactly the problem schools have. When there is a
> barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
> because he has no desire to learn how to read.
requirement that children must read by a certain age, then it is a
problem if they aren't reading by then.
The following is going to be hard for you. It is going to turn all
that you think you know about what kids need in order to learn upside
down.
If you remove the artificial requirement that he be reading now, then
there is no problem. If you remove the necessity to learn only (or
primarily) through reading, then there is no problem.
Reading is not the be all and end all of learning. Other ways of
learning are not distant seconds to reading.
What reading is to learning is an efficient way for one teacher to
get information into a room full of kids. Schools depend on kids
reading *not* because it's best learning method but because it makes
schools run efficiently. (Even teachers will say the best way to
learn is by doing. And unschoolers would add doing what they love and
are curious about. But can you imagine one teacher being able to
manage a room full of kids learning by doing when she needs to
demonstrate they learned x, y, and z by the end of the school year?)
There's no reason to try to recreate school at home when the methods
schools use are meant primarily to make schools run and secondarily
to show that learning is happening (happening long enough to be
regurgitated for a test).
Unschoolers do not depend on reading for their kids to learn. *And
unschooled kids learn just fine.* The learning that unschoolers do
looks *different*. It looks like play. But it is not only just as
effective, it's *more* because kids are absorbing what fascinates
them in ways that are natural to their personalities.
When kids are allowed to read when they want to, when they find it
meaningful for them, when their brains are developmentally ready,
when they have pleasant associations with reading then kids do learn
to read. It happens usually between 6 and 8 but can be earlier and
can be later. Thirteen is not an unusual age to learn to read. (Kids
who learn at 13 are not 7 years behind in skills. They quickly are
reading at age level.)
In the mean time they are learning *just fine* in other ways:
listening to people, talking, watching TV, listening to music, doing
things hands on, *analyzing*, *making connections* and so on.
> My son will not pick up a book and read it on hisIf you continue to make him read, continue to make the experience
> own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.
with books unpleasant for him, you will have the exact same problem
schools do: he will either decide there's something wrong with him
and he can't read, or he will decide that reading is dumb and he
never wants to read.
> I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five ofThat's what schools think they do too. But unschoolers don't teach
> them how to read.
their kids to read and their kids learn to read anyway. So there's
something else going on.
What's going on is that learning to read is no more difficult than
learning to speak. (I suspect it's quite a bit easier!) Learning to
read happens when reading is a natural, useful (to *them*) and
unstressful part of their environment: signs, video games and gaming
guides, stories, movies based on books, books on tape and so on and
so on.
This is just a guess but it seems to fit what unschoolers see with
children. There seem to be a number of brain areas involved in
reading. Not all of them mature at the same rate and those brain
areas are also used for things other than reading. When a child isn't
reading by 12 what makes sense is that one of those brain area is not
ready. They've been using the other brain areas involved in reading
for other things so they're all up and running. And when that last
brain area is mature then wham the kid's reading. It doesn't always
happen that way, but it does for a fair number. For others it's more
gradual but once they're brains are ready (and their experiences with
reading have been positive) they go from not reading to reading at
age level within a few months.
> Some learned faster than others but they all had aGirls tend to be more verbally oriented. They do on the whole tend to
> desire to learn.
learn to read earlier than boys.
Unschoolers would say look at who he is rather than who is is not and
rather than holding him against the yardstick of who you want him to
become. If you can look at him as being perfect at being 8 rather
than an imperfect adult you will help both of you and your
relationship and his learning tremendously. If you see that each day
he is learning how to be 8 years + 1 day and then 8 years + 2 days
until he's 9 and he will be a perfect 9 year old, then you won't be
struggling against who he is right now.
If you treat him as doing the best he can -- after a period of
transition since he's been absorbing the message that he's not as
good as you want him to be for a long time -- he will do the best he
can. He will still make mistakes but they will be honest mistakes of
a growing person who is trying to figure out the world.
> I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn'tYou and every teacher in school! They haven't solved it yet after
> want to learn
hundreds? thousands? of years.
> and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruiningNot surprising. Lots of unschooler came to unschooling because they
> homeschooling."
reached the point where they realized that making a child learn is
not only impossible but turns mother and child into adversaries. If
you wish to hold on to the necessity of teaching a child it would be
better to send him to school so at least he could have a haven to
come home to.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Debi
mommyof7plus1 wrote:
board. You will be tempted to greet many posts with "Yeah, but...",
which might be useful down the road *if you keep thinking about it*, but
won't be of much consolation now, unless you let them.
The first thing I would recommend is for you to read the description of
the group on the website. If you still find you only agree somewhat,
any advice you receive here will only be "somewhat" useful. Nobody here
will be able to help you "make" your son read. They can offer advice
for ways for you to relax that demand ... they can reassure you that he
will read as soon as he finds it necessary and important to what he is
doing ... they can counsel you that reading doesn't have to look like
decoding certain books on demand and doing grammar exercises. They
won't help you "school" him -- buit they can help you UNschool yourself
-- and your son. Is that the kind of help you are looking for?
desperation. Those who live in an unschooling way (and make no mistake
-- it becomes a LIFESTYLE if you do it properly) live in discovery and
happiness.
HOWEVER, the transition between the two can often be far more vexing
than school at home was in the first place, as you struggle with
everything you have ever been told, your children still do not
"perform", and your husband wonders what the heck happened. Once you
have fully made the jump, you can find a richness of existence, but it
usually does not come overnight. SO be prepared!
There will be rewards, but they won't look like your son begging to do
extra units in Rod and Staff. They come in increased peace; a relaxing
of your fears; stronger, more healthy relationships; less yelling;
excitement at finding connections between interests -- that kind of thing.
search the archives, you will find a wealth of advice, ranging from
Sandra's essays to others who chime in. It has been written about quite
frequently. This is a fairly common problem, and likely one of the top
reasons people look to unschooling. So you are not alone!
It sounds like you want an answer you can start with right away. I
don't have the post numbers at my fingertips, but just put "read" or
"can't read" or whatever in the search feature at the website, and you
will be given many helpful approaches. Once you read them, you will be
able to ask specific questions. Anybody have the link to Sandra's and
Joyce's pages about reading?
compliant child who will "go along" with what you have been offering,
but if you are truly *blessed*, you get a child who questions, who
teaches YOU how to re-evaluate everything *you* have "gone along" with
... who challenges you to find a more meaningful way of learning, of
teaching yourself.
or I start getting edgy and reading cereal boxes, if that is all that is
handy (happened on our last camping trip when I forgot my book bag). I
definitely need input on a frequent basis, but I would complain about
any reading anyone MADE me do. I like to be able to choose what, when,
and how I read -- in frantic gulps, or leisurely sips. Fiction or non.
In the tub, while making dinner, or in the middle of the night because I
can't sleep.
and they *chose* to learn how to read. Either they were ready and
really wanted it, or else they had nothing better to do. Either your
son is *not* ready, or *doesn't* want it, or he *does* have something
better to do.
Whatever his reason for resisting, you can't make him learn to read.
Instead, you can find out what he *is* interested in, what he *is* ready
for, what he wishes he were doing instead. Then you can see if there's
some way he would like you to be involved in that (providing materials,
playing with him, reading to him, whatever).
lovingly figure out WHAT he wants to learn if you want to be part of his
journey, or to at least get out of his way so he can accomplish what he
is after if you don't want to quash his own determination out of him.
Love of learning is very difficult to restore. Trust in a relationship
is fairly difficult to mend. Backing off and seeing his direction and
fitting yourself in is WAY easier, and much more fulfilling in the long
run -- to both of you.
and certain compliant kids will allow it, or everyone can end up
frustrated and miserable and adversarial.
around.... the struggles with homeschooling are really ruining the
relationship with my son?!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Hi,Unfortunately, agreeing somewhat will only frustrate you with this
>
>I just subscribed to this list, although I have lurked on the list in
>the past. I will say upfront that I am not an unschooler although I do
>somewhat agree with the philosophy of unschooling.
>
>
board. You will be tempted to greet many posts with "Yeah, but...",
which might be useful down the road *if you keep thinking about it*, but
won't be of much consolation now, unless you let them.
The first thing I would recommend is for you to read the description of
the group on the website. If you still find you only agree somewhat,
any advice you receive here will only be "somewhat" useful. Nobody here
will be able to help you "make" your son read. They can offer advice
for ways for you to relax that demand ... they can reassure you that he
will read as soon as he finds it necessary and important to what he is
doing ... they can counsel you that reading doesn't have to look like
decoding certain books on demand and doing grammar exercises. They
won't help you "school" him -- buit they can help you UNschool yourself
-- and your son. Is that the kind of help you are looking for?
>I have been struggling with homeschooling my 8yob. I recently postedMany of those who school at home DO live their lives in quiet
>about it on some traditional homeschooling discussion boards and I did
>not recieve much help. Many of them struggle with similar issues but
>no one has much in the way of solutions for the problems. I have come
>to the conclusion that many homeschoolers "live their lives in quiet
>desperation".
>
desperation. Those who live in an unschooling way (and make no mistake
-- it becomes a LIFESTYLE if you do it properly) live in discovery and
happiness.
HOWEVER, the transition between the two can often be far more vexing
than school at home was in the first place, as you struggle with
everything you have ever been told, your children still do not
"perform", and your husband wonders what the heck happened. Once you
have fully made the jump, you can find a richness of existence, but it
usually does not come overnight. SO be prepared!
There will be rewards, but they won't look like your son begging to do
extra units in Rod and Staff. They come in increased peace; a relaxing
of your fears; stronger, more healthy relationships; less yelling;
excitement at finding connections between interests -- that kind of thing.
>Anyhow, I would like to know how unschoolers would relpyActually, many homeschoolers *have* replied to similar posts. If you
>to the following post:
>
>
search the archives, you will find a wealth of advice, ranging from
Sandra's essays to others who chime in. It has been written about quite
frequently. This is a fairly common problem, and likely one of the top
reasons people look to unschooling. So you are not alone!
It sounds like you want an answer you can start with right away. I
don't have the post numbers at my fingertips, but just put "read" or
"can't read" or whatever in the search feature at the website, and you
will be given many helpful approaches. Once you read them, you will be
able to ask specific questions. Anybody have the link to Sandra's and
Joyce's pages about reading?
>"I'm about at my wits end with my son. He is 8 and a half and canSchooling ANYONE is very difficult. If you are "lucky", you get a
>barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
>because he has no desire to learn how to read.
>
compliant child who will "go along" with what you have been offering,
but if you are truly *blessed*, you get a child who questions, who
teaches YOU how to re-evaluate everything *you* have "gone along" with
... who challenges you to find a more meaningful way of learning, of
teaching yourself.
>His sister is 18 monthsI LOVE to read. I find I need a ration of so many printed words a day,
>younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
>reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
>her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
>learning on her own. My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
>own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.
>
>
or I start getting edgy and reading cereal boxes, if that is all that is
handy (happened on our last camping trip when I forgot my book bag). I
definitely need input on a frequent basis, but I would complain about
any reading anyone MADE me do. I like to be able to choose what, when,
and how I read -- in frantic gulps, or leisurely sips. Fiction or non.
In the tub, while making dinner, or in the middle of the night because I
can't sleep.
>I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five ofActually, what you did was provide five of them with the information,
>them how to read.
>
and they *chose* to learn how to read. Either they were ready and
really wanted it, or else they had nothing better to do. Either your
son is *not* ready, or *doesn't* want it, or he *does* have something
better to do.
Whatever his reason for resisting, you can't make him learn to read.
Instead, you can find out what he *is* interested in, what he *is* ready
for, what he wishes he were doing instead. Then you can see if there's
some way he would like you to be involved in that (providing materials,
playing with him, reading to him, whatever).
>Some learned faster than others but they all had aYour son also has a desire to learn. It is your job to sit back, and
>desire to learn.
>
lovingly figure out WHAT he wants to learn if you want to be part of his
journey, or to at least get out of his way so he can accomplish what he
is after if you don't want to quash his own determination out of him.
Love of learning is very difficult to restore. Trust in a relationship
is fairly difficult to mend. Backing off and seeing his direction and
fitting yourself in is WAY easier, and much more fulfilling in the long
run -- to both of you.
>I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn'tNeither does anyone else. Oh, they can try to force certain behaviors,
>want to learn
>
and certain compliant kids will allow it, or everyone can end up
frustrated and miserable and adversarial.
>and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruiningWow -- look at your priority here! What if you turned the sentence
>homeschooling."
>
>
around.... the struggles with homeschooling are really ruining the
relationship with my son?!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deanne Brown
>>>I will say upfront that I am not an unschooler although I dosomewhat agree with the philosophy of unschooling.>>>
>>>"I'm about at my wits end with my son. He is 8 and a half and canbarely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
because he has no desire to learn how to read.>>>
This is a common problem among homeschoolers but it is not a problem for
unschoolers. What I mean by this is that an unschooler would not be
pushing their 8 year old to read before he is ready, many homeschoolers
do. I highly suggest that you give your son space and freedom and stop
pushing him to learn to read. If you continue to push, it will probably
backfire. Your son may eventually learn to read but he will not enjoy
it, thus will probably choose not to read as he gets older. It will be
a constant battle for you until you can let go. I know this first hand
because I let go and I promise you that it benefited everyone.
Instead of pushing him to read, help him to appreciate reading! You can
do this in several ways but make sure it is not contrived or coerced.
Your son will catch on if you do this with an agenda in mind and again
it will backfire. I highly recommend that you read to him. Maybe he
loves Harry Potter or Star Wars. Find a nice comfortable place to sit
and snuggle while you both escape into a fun and exciting world. Also,
show him how enjoyable reading can be by reading yourself. Do you read?
Do you get excited about a new book coming out? Do you go to the
library and come home with a bag full of books? Do you ever go to the
book store and buy your kids books? Do you belong to a book group?
I love to read and I admit that I have worked hard to instill a love of
reading in my kids. I have never pushed them to "learn to read" instead
I have shown them how wonderful reading can be.
>>>I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn'twant to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
homeschooling.">>>
Stop teaching your son. Children are natural learners. You may want to
read my favorite book by Frank Smith, "The Book of Learning and
Forgetting". He talks about how children learn to read. You may find
it very helpful.
Good luck and try to relax a bit. You should not be struggling with
your son. Having your kids home with you should be enjoyable, if it is
not then something is not right. You may want to embrace more
unschooling philosophy into your lives.
Deanne
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
**I'm about at my wits end with my son. He is 8 and a half and can
barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
because he has no desire to learn how to read. His sister is 18 months
younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
learning on her own. My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.
I have eight children (he's the only boy)**
Hi, Susan --
Shakespeare said "comparisons are odious", but sometimes I can't resist
comparing my only child (a boy) with my friends' children. My son's
11. At that age I read a lot, and I read big enormous adult books. My
son isn't like me. He reads a lot less than I do, and less complex
stuff than many of his peers.
Recently, I had an encouraging conversation with some of my eclectic
homeschooling friends at the park. Among my close circle of friends
(not a big enough sample to prove anything) it seems to be common for
girls to devour lots of books and for the boys (7 years - 11.5 ) to seem
to read only *comic books*. My son is enthusiastic about reading
Garfield, Foxtrot, Calvin and Hobbes, Tintin, Asterix, and Star Wars
graphic novels. The important part of that sentence to me is "my son is
enthusiastic about reading".
It is absolutely normal for children to vary widely in when they start
reading. (The way schools are designed does not acknowledge that
fact.) I believe that pushing reading can badly confuse a child that
isn't ready. Readiness depends on brain development. (Also on eye
development -- I do have a friend whose 11 year old just learned to read
after having "vision therapy".) Brain and eyes and heart all have to be
ready for great reading skills to develop.
My son really likes having me read to him (when he's not busy playing),
and listening to books on tape. He finds that reading the text himself
interferes with his ability to visualize it.
To encourage interest in reading without pushing, I'd have really fun
books in the house (yes, comic strip books), and appealing magazines
that encourage browsing and looking at the pictures. Some people have
found that sheet music (or printed lyrics) of a memorized song can help
support a developing reader. But readiness is everything. Kids who
aren't ready to read at the age reading lessons start in school can
really suffer and feel ashamed and miserable. Please don't do that to
your son.
Betsy
PS There's some much more detailed stuff about unschooling reading on
www.sandradodd.com
barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
because he has no desire to learn how to read. His sister is 18 months
younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
learning on her own. My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.
I have eight children (he's the only boy)**
Hi, Susan --
Shakespeare said "comparisons are odious", but sometimes I can't resist
comparing my only child (a boy) with my friends' children. My son's
11. At that age I read a lot, and I read big enormous adult books. My
son isn't like me. He reads a lot less than I do, and less complex
stuff than many of his peers.
Recently, I had an encouraging conversation with some of my eclectic
homeschooling friends at the park. Among my close circle of friends
(not a big enough sample to prove anything) it seems to be common for
girls to devour lots of books and for the boys (7 years - 11.5 ) to seem
to read only *comic books*. My son is enthusiastic about reading
Garfield, Foxtrot, Calvin and Hobbes, Tintin, Asterix, and Star Wars
graphic novels. The important part of that sentence to me is "my son is
enthusiastic about reading".
It is absolutely normal for children to vary widely in when they start
reading. (The way schools are designed does not acknowledge that
fact.) I believe that pushing reading can badly confuse a child that
isn't ready. Readiness depends on brain development. (Also on eye
development -- I do have a friend whose 11 year old just learned to read
after having "vision therapy".) Brain and eyes and heart all have to be
ready for great reading skills to develop.
My son really likes having me read to him (when he's not busy playing),
and listening to books on tape. He finds that reading the text himself
interferes with his ability to visualize it.
To encourage interest in reading without pushing, I'd have really fun
books in the house (yes, comic strip books), and appealing magazines
that encourage browsing and looking at the pictures. Some people have
found that sheet music (or printed lyrics) of a memorized song can help
support a developing reader. But readiness is everything. Kids who
aren't ready to read at the age reading lessons start in school can
really suffer and feel ashamed and miserable. Please don't do that to
your son.
Betsy
PS There's some much more detailed stuff about unschooling reading on
www.sandradodd.com
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 8, 2005, at 12:55 PM, Debi wrote:
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
and Sandra's can be reached through:
http://sandradodd.com
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Anybody have the link to Sandra's andHere's mine:
> Joyce's pages about reading?
http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/
and Sandra's can be reached through:
http://sandradodd.com
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler Waynforth
Unfortunately you aren't unschooling. If you were unschooling you
could relax and enjoy your son doing activities that were fun to him
instead of needing him to achieve a certain level of reading
competence in order to do those activities a schooled life requires.
If you were unschooling your son (and your other 7 children) you
wouldn't be judging him based on a timetable that your other children
may or may not have adhered to. If you were unschooling you wouldn't
spend hours trying to get him to love reading by forcing him to do
reading assignments, instead you could cuddle up with him and read
books, or read information to him from the internet that you thought
would interest him or that he'd asked about.
I can imagine how frustrating it must be for him to have his mother
telling him that he must read. I am sure he knows that his sister who
is 18 months younger is reading. I imagine that makes him feel dumb.
I am sure he knows that his not reading is frustrating to you. Maybe
what you see as a lack of desire is less a lack of desire, and more a
passive rebellion. When I have pushed Simon to do something he
doesn't want to, he doesn't yell or freak out, he just shuts down: he
takes on what I would describe as a bored face, and crosses his arms
and looks away. And in that minute of gentle, absolute refusal my
first response is anger and frustration and then I laugh at myself and
I apologize for pushing him. But that took a while to get to. However,
it was never a lack of desire on his part, no matter how it felt in my
moments of frustration. It was an unwillingness to continue mixed
with a feeling of powerlessness. He couldn't stop my insistence, but
he could keep from being part of his own subjugation. So, now, when I
find myself pushing him and I see him retreat into himself I back off
and I apologize and I change the subject.
For whatever reason you've decided not to unschool your children.
However, I would suggest that you look at your son and look at all he
is capable of, including his reading. Don't look at him in
comparison, don't look at him with a curriculum in mind, just look at
him as the person he is and find everything in him that you love. And
next time he isn't all that you need him to be as you sit down to do
your Rod and Staff curriculum think about all that he is that is good
and that is wonderful. And maybe wonder if the Rod and Staff
curriculum isn't all you need it to be.
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], "mommyof7plus1"
<scraven@c...> wrote:
could relax and enjoy your son doing activities that were fun to him
instead of needing him to achieve a certain level of reading
competence in order to do those activities a schooled life requires.
If you were unschooling your son (and your other 7 children) you
wouldn't be judging him based on a timetable that your other children
may or may not have adhered to. If you were unschooling you wouldn't
spend hours trying to get him to love reading by forcing him to do
reading assignments, instead you could cuddle up with him and read
books, or read information to him from the internet that you thought
would interest him or that he'd asked about.
I can imagine how frustrating it must be for him to have his mother
telling him that he must read. I am sure he knows that his sister who
is 18 months younger is reading. I imagine that makes him feel dumb.
I am sure he knows that his not reading is frustrating to you. Maybe
what you see as a lack of desire is less a lack of desire, and more a
passive rebellion. When I have pushed Simon to do something he
doesn't want to, he doesn't yell or freak out, he just shuts down: he
takes on what I would describe as a bored face, and crosses his arms
and looks away. And in that minute of gentle, absolute refusal my
first response is anger and frustration and then I laugh at myself and
I apologize for pushing him. But that took a while to get to. However,
it was never a lack of desire on his part, no matter how it felt in my
moments of frustration. It was an unwillingness to continue mixed
with a feeling of powerlessness. He couldn't stop my insistence, but
he could keep from being part of his own subjugation. So, now, when I
find myself pushing him and I see him retreat into himself I back off
and I apologize and I change the subject.
For whatever reason you've decided not to unschool your children.
However, I would suggest that you look at your son and look at all he
is capable of, including his reading. Don't look at him in
comparison, don't look at him with a curriculum in mind, just look at
him as the person he is and find everything in him that you love. And
next time he isn't all that you need him to be as you sit down to do
your Rod and Staff curriculum think about all that he is that is good
and that is wonderful. And maybe wonder if the Rod and Staff
curriculum isn't all you need it to be.
Schuyler
--- In [email protected], "mommyof7plus1"
<scraven@c...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I just subscribed to this list, although I have lurked on the list in
> the past. I will say upfront that I am not an unschooler although I do
> somewhat agree with the philosophy of unschooling.
>
> I have been struggling with homeschooling my 8yob. I recently posted
> about it on some traditional homeschooling discussion boards and I did
> not recieve much help. Many of them struggle with similar issues but
> no one has much in the way of solutions for the problems. I have come
> to the conclusion that many homeschoolers "live their lives in quiet
> desperation". Anyhow, I would like to know how unschoolers would relpy
> to the following post:
>
> "I'm about at my wits end with my son. He is 8 and a half and can
> barely read at a 1st grade level. Schooling him is very difficult
> because he has no desire to learn how to read. His sister is 18 months
> younger and they are both doing Rod and Staff first grade but her
> reading ability is at least 2nd grade level because she reads books on
> her own initiative and comes to me to ask what a word is so she is
> learning on her own. My son will not pick up a book and read it on his
> own and he complains about the reading that I make him do.
>
> I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
> them how to read. Some learned faster than others but they all had a
> desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
> want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
> homeschooling."
>
> Susan
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/05 11:03:44 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:
the lyrics, but they could see the format of the verses and see the first words
or last words. It's a part of starting to read, and they were words they
really knew and liked. They understood clearly the purpose of having those
words.
I would find the words to a cartoon show theme song (Ninja Turtles, I
remember doing) and would put them in large text and print them out. When Disney
movies came out I would get the lyrics of the favorite song of the moment (Under
the Sea and A Whole New World I remember) and put them out on the counter in
the kitchen or something, and *I* would check those lyrics when we were trying
to sing them, so we could learn the words.
It's great when the parents do the reading, when the kids see parents reading
for fun and for practical purposes too. In some families reading is a thing
kids are made to do, that parents don't do. Kids don't want to do "kid
things" or forced things. They want to do what adults do.
The subject line of "a child who doesn't want to learn" bothers me deeply.
All children want to learn until and unless that desire is extinguished.
If a mother can show me a child who really "doesn't want to learn" I'm pretty
sure I'll be able to point at the school or schooling that created that
problem.
Not wanting to have someone shame him with continuing things he doesn't
understand isn't the same as not wanting to learn. Being sad because his mother
considers him someone who doesn't want to learn isn't the same as not wanting
to learn--not at first, anyway. It can become that, and it will not be the
fault of the child.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Some people haveMy kids liked having song lyrics printed out. Maybe they couldn't "read"
> found that sheet music (or printed lyrics) of a memorized song can help
> support a developing reader.
>
the lyrics, but they could see the format of the verses and see the first words
or last words. It's a part of starting to read, and they were words they
really knew and liked. They understood clearly the purpose of having those
words.
I would find the words to a cartoon show theme song (Ninja Turtles, I
remember doing) and would put them in large text and print them out. When Disney
movies came out I would get the lyrics of the favorite song of the moment (Under
the Sea and A Whole New World I remember) and put them out on the counter in
the kitchen or something, and *I* would check those lyrics when we were trying
to sing them, so we could learn the words.
It's great when the parents do the reading, when the kids see parents reading
for fun and for practical purposes too. In some families reading is a thing
kids are made to do, that parents don't do. Kids don't want to do "kid
things" or forced things. They want to do what adults do.
The subject line of "a child who doesn't want to learn" bothers me deeply.
All children want to learn until and unless that desire is extinguished.
If a mother can show me a child who really "doesn't want to learn" I'm pretty
sure I'll be able to point at the school or schooling that created that
problem.
Not wanting to have someone shame him with continuing things he doesn't
understand isn't the same as not wanting to learn. Being sad because his mother
considers him someone who doesn't want to learn isn't the same as not wanting
to learn--not at first, anyway. It can become that, and it will not be the
fault of the child.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>-=-I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of-=-Actually, what you did was provide five of them with the information,
>them how to read.
>
and they *chose* to learn how to read.-=-
I think this is very important.
Part of the problem with "the child who doesn't want to learn" (POOR BOY!!
This is repeated now thousands of times, in public) is that the mom believe she
has taught five children to read already.
What the mom has is five children who have LEARNED how to read. Luckily for
them, and for her, they didn't ruin homeschooling, but happened to be ready
to learn to read while the mom was interested in feeling like it was something
they could not have learned without her.
Now the effect on the son is that he is branded bad an wrong because of the
comparison.
The effect on the mother is that she didn't see learning when it was there;
she saw teaching.
The effect on the five daughters is that they were made to believe that their
mother taught them to read. Then they needed for her to teach them other
things.
The effect on my own children of learning to read was that they *KNEW* if
they could figure reading out, nothing was going to be beyond their powers of
comprehension and discovery.
http://sandradodd.com/wordswords
Considering the differences between the concepts of teaching and learning
will help considerably with seeing how learning works.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** The subject line of "a child who doesn't want to learn" bothers me
deeply.**
One way to rethink that phrase (in my mind) is to say that he's "a child
who doesn't think learning should be work".
This list is a good place to validate that point of view, since this
list is filled with adults who don't think learning should be work.
** Not wanting to have someone shame him with continuing things he doesn't
understand isn't the same as not wanting to learn.**
So true!
Betsy
deeply.**
One way to rethink that phrase (in my mind) is to say that he's "a child
who doesn't think learning should be work".
This list is a good place to validate that point of view, since this
list is filled with adults who don't think learning should be work.
** Not wanting to have someone shame him with continuing things he doesn't
understand isn't the same as not wanting to learn.**
So true!
Betsy
Su Penn
This is the part of this post that struck me:
On Nov 8, 2005, at 11:29 AM, mommyof7plus1 wrote:
> I have eight children (he's the only boy) and I have taught five of
> them how to read. Some learned faster than others but they all had a
> desire to learn. I simply do not know how to teach a child who doesn't
> want to learn and frankly, the struggles with my son are ruining
> homeschooling."
I would ask myself whether getting my son to read RIGHT NOW is worth
ruining homeschooing, introducing stress into the home, and damaging
our relationship. I recently read a book that I think was mentioned on
this list, Hold On To Your Kids by Gordon Neufeld. One thing I took
away from that book was that the relationship between parent and child
is more important than "discipline." Neufeld recommends that if a
parent is having problems with a child's behavior, that the parent set
aside ideas of discipline and instead make an effort to connect more
fully with the child. He bases it on the idea that kids will learn
behavior from the people they identify with, and as parents, we want
that to be us. So strengthening the connection should be the goal, not
achieving certain kinds of compliance from a kid.
It would be very hard for me to have a child of 8 or older who didn't
read (mine are still younger than that). I would worry, I'm sure, that
he would never learn, that certain pleasures wouldn't be available to
him. I'd worry about what others would think. I'd be on this list, and
others, all the time, begging parents of kids who started reading when
they were 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 to tell me the stories again..."one more
time, your kid is doing OK? Everybody, help me see how great he's
doing!"
But I would also try to avoid labeling him as a kid who "didn't want to
learn." Is your son interested in other things, just not in learning to
read? Kids are learning all the time; what learning can you see
happening for him now? What is positive about your relationship? What
might happen if you set aside teaching him to read for six months, just
decided not to worry about it until X date, and watched how relaxing
that pressure on you and him affected your home life and relationship?
I was worrying--foolishly, I knew at the time--a few months ago because
my 4 yo didn't seem as skilled at counting as other kids his age I
know. I had to discipline myself not to push the issue. And suddenly,
just lately, I'm not even sure when or how, he started counting past
10, experimenting with addition, subtraction, and multiplication ("if
each doll has two legs, how many legs do four dolls have?" is a
question he spent some time working out last night). Kids' progress in
assimilating skills is so often not linear; my son didn't go from being
able to count 2 things to being able to count 3 to being able to count
4. He went from being able to count 3 things to being able to count 12,
overnight. What connections might your son make in a relaxed atmosphere
of loving support? Could you give yourself and him a little time to
find out?
If the struggles are ruining homeschooling, can you let the struggle
go, just for now?
Su
mommyof7plus1
--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
want to do it and it is not at all enjoyable for him. He wants to
learn how to read but he doesn't want to work.
Now, I don't have a problem with using a curriculum and giving my
children assignments (which is why I'm not an unschooler) but I do
have a problem with making them do something that they don't at all
enjoy or otherwise get no benefit from. So, I also, don't think that
learning should be work, or at least not drudgery.
But I want my son to learn how to read. I'm afraid that if I just stop
"teaching" him, that when other people find out he can't read they
will make a big deal about it. I'm afraid that this will make him feel
dumb and damage his self-esteem. When he was younger it wasn't a
problem but now that he is older he is involved in outside activities
and they often require some ability to read (kids choir).
At home, it is not a big deal. I have always emphasized that everybody
has things they are good at and things that are harder for them. He
doesn't have any problem with the fact that his younger sister can
read better than he can because HE knows how to invent things and
build things. Something she can't (or doesn't want) to do. To him this
is a more valuable skill than reading.
I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in.
So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work?
Susan
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
> One way to rethink that phrase (in my mind) is to say that he's "achild
> who doesn't think learning should be work".That's it! Learning how to read is very hard for him so he doesn't
want to do it and it is not at all enjoyable for him. He wants to
learn how to read but he doesn't want to work.
Now, I don't have a problem with using a curriculum and giving my
children assignments (which is why I'm not an unschooler) but I do
have a problem with making them do something that they don't at all
enjoy or otherwise get no benefit from. So, I also, don't think that
learning should be work, or at least not drudgery.
But I want my son to learn how to read. I'm afraid that if I just stop
"teaching" him, that when other people find out he can't read they
will make a big deal about it. I'm afraid that this will make him feel
dumb and damage his self-esteem. When he was younger it wasn't a
problem but now that he is older he is involved in outside activities
and they often require some ability to read (kids choir).
At home, it is not a big deal. I have always emphasized that everybody
has things they are good at and things that are harder for them. He
doesn't have any problem with the fact that his younger sister can
read better than he can because HE knows how to invent things and
build things. Something she can't (or doesn't want) to do. To him this
is a more valuable skill than reading.
I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in.
So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work?
Susan
mommyof7plus1
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
doesn't want to learn how to read.
Susan
>The post is one that I wrote. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
>
> In a message dated 11/8/05 9:43:12 AM, scraven@c... writes:
>
>
> > Anyhow, I would like to know how unschoolers would relpy
> > to the following post:
> >
>
> Is that post from you, Susan, or from someone not on this list at all?
> That would make a difference to me.
> Frankly, discussing children in such terms as being a child who"doesn't want
> to learn" will ruin the tone of this list.I should have been more specific. He does want to learn, he just
doesn't want to learn how to read.
>child is
> We CAN help you, if you want to change, but if you insist that your
> just lazy and uncooperative, you will be doing him harm that thislist should
> not and cannot support or encourage.I do not think that my child is lazy or uncooperative.
Susan
Betsy Hill
** So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work?**
From all the learning that I have done about learning, I have come to
believe that humans have a powerful built-in ability to learn.
Forced-drill learning, like a lot of us have experienced in schools, is
a very poor way to learn. It has a high forgetting rate, and many nasty
side-effects.
The unschooling approach to reading is about waiting for interest and
readiness to develop, and then supporting and facilitating the child in
whatever way he asks for. (Reading to him, answering if he wants to
know how to spell something, sounding out XPRZNT if he spells that with
fridge magnets...)
When he's ready, a child can *learn* to read with books and generally
with assistance (from parent or sibling), but it isn't *teaching* that
causes learning. We can't rub knowledge onto the outsides of our
children and have it sink in. The process of learning takes place
inside their minds, and they control how it works. (Both consciously
and unconsciously.)
Betsy
it being work?**
From all the learning that I have done about learning, I have come to
believe that humans have a powerful built-in ability to learn.
Forced-drill learning, like a lot of us have experienced in schools, is
a very poor way to learn. It has a high forgetting rate, and many nasty
side-effects.
The unschooling approach to reading is about waiting for interest and
readiness to develop, and then supporting and facilitating the child in
whatever way he asks for. (Reading to him, answering if he wants to
know how to spell something, sounding out XPRZNT if he spells that with
fridge magnets...)
When he's ready, a child can *learn* to read with books and generally
with assistance (from parent or sibling), but it isn't *teaching* that
causes learning. We can't rub knowledge onto the outsides of our
children and have it sink in. The process of learning takes place
inside their minds, and they control how it works. (Both consciously
and unconsciously.)
Betsy
[email protected]
In two different messages, scraven@... writes:
doesn't want to learn how to read.-=-
Contradictions aside, if he isn't ready to learn to read it doesn't matter
whether he wants to or doesn't want to. Reading doesn't come from desire. It
will come naturally when all other factors are in place.
That might sound wrong to you; teachers assure people that reading is NOT
natural, because they like to feel like experts, and like to feel that without
teachers, the entire world would be illiterate.
They're wrong.
As to choir needs, he can sing without knowing how to read, and he can learn
lyrics without knowing how to read, because YOU can read. How do
"pre-schoolers" learn to sing? They sing.
Holly was in an acting class and was assured by her teacher (who was wrong)
that if she couldn't read, she couldn't act. Holly knew there were actors who
couldn't read. She knew about babies and toddlers, but what she didn't know
was that even some adult actors are so dyslexic and so school-damaged that
they get help with their scripts.)
From an article called Three Readers that was in Live Free Learn Free
magazine, about Holly, quoting myself until this line comes again
-----------------------
Holly's a girl, and girls are verbal, and girls read earlier, I thought. By
eight, when Kirby had been reading, Holly wasn't even nearly so. By nine,
when Marty had read, nothing. I wasn't as worried as I would've been had she
been my first, and that was good for her. At ten, though, Holly started to
worry because other homeschoolers she knew were reading and she wasn't. Younger
kids were reading. One family was using her as a bad example ("You need to
do these lessons so you won't turn out like Holly, who can't even read").
A couple of incidents greatly expanded what I had known before, though, and
have changed my entire view of late readers. Holly was in a summer dance and
theatre "camp," a five day all-day set of sessions. I told the teachers she
wasn't a reader and requested they not ask her to read aloud. They were
using the book Barn Dance for the production, so we bought a copy a couple of days
before, and I read it to her several times. By the performance, some kids
hadn't memorized their assigned verse, but Holly had memorized hers and everyone
else's too. (The same thing happened in a play later. She couldn't be
dependent on a script she couldn't read, and ended up memorizing the whole thing.)
Later that year, she joined girl scouts, and I told the leaders she wasn't
reading. A schooled friend of hers offered to help her, but the "help"
consisted mostly of reminding the other girls and Holly that she, the friend, had to
help Holly read. Because that was the first time in their lives the friend
had been a step ahead of her, Holly let it slide. . There was a presentation
for parents one night. While the other kids were reading off paper,
mispronouncing “Juliet Lowe,” mumbling and covering their faces, Holly's portion of
the program was clear, involved eye contact and her own words
When she was eleven, I wrote this:
Holly wasn't reading at ten. She wasn't happy about it, either. She is at the
point now where she is reading words without meaning to. For fun she tries to
walk around the house without recognizing any words. At eleven, she's still
not reading chapter books. But if you met her and talked to her you wouldn't
think for a second, "I bet this kid doesn't even read," because there's not much
she can't talk about, and if she knows nothing about it but it sounds
interesting, she'll ask intelligent questions."
Though Holly wasn't reading, her vocabulary was sophisticated and she was
fascinated by the history of and connectedness of words. When she did start to
read, she had no reason to use easy books. She was still eleven when she did
her first real reading, a Judy Blume novel. She read two of those, and
moved on to Steven King's novelette The Body.
When she had only been reading a couple of months, we were sitting down to
watch "TheTwilight Zone," Holly reached over to move the Tank Girl comic books
she had been reading. One was called "The Odyssey." Then the DVD menu came
up, and one of the episodes was "The Odyssey of Flight 33." She commented on
it, and I said "You saw the word 'odyssey' twice in an hour? Cool!"
She said, "I saw the word 'odyssey' twice in one MINUTE!"
-----------------------
Holly is fourteen now (fourteen now (as of last Wednesday) and you would
never, ever know she "read late" if you met her, talked with her, or she discussed
what she was reading or had cause to read something aloud.
Rather than press your son to do what he's not ready to do, you could ask
that he bring the sheetmusic home, and go through it with him so he will know his
lines.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-That's it! Learning how to read is very hard for him so he doesn't-=-I should have been more specific. He does want to learn, he just
> want to do it and it is not at all enjoyable for him. He wants to
> learn how to read but he doesn't want to work.-=-
>
doesn't want to learn how to read.-=-
Contradictions aside, if he isn't ready to learn to read it doesn't matter
whether he wants to or doesn't want to. Reading doesn't come from desire. It
will come naturally when all other factors are in place.
That might sound wrong to you; teachers assure people that reading is NOT
natural, because they like to feel like experts, and like to feel that without
teachers, the entire world would be illiterate.
They're wrong.
As to choir needs, he can sing without knowing how to read, and he can learn
lyrics without knowing how to read, because YOU can read. How do
"pre-schoolers" learn to sing? They sing.
Holly was in an acting class and was assured by her teacher (who was wrong)
that if she couldn't read, she couldn't act. Holly knew there were actors who
couldn't read. She knew about babies and toddlers, but what she didn't know
was that even some adult actors are so dyslexic and so school-damaged that
they get help with their scripts.)
From an article called Three Readers that was in Live Free Learn Free
magazine, about Holly, quoting myself until this line comes again
-----------------------
Holly's a girl, and girls are verbal, and girls read earlier, I thought. By
eight, when Kirby had been reading, Holly wasn't even nearly so. By nine,
when Marty had read, nothing. I wasn't as worried as I would've been had she
been my first, and that was good for her. At ten, though, Holly started to
worry because other homeschoolers she knew were reading and she wasn't. Younger
kids were reading. One family was using her as a bad example ("You need to
do these lessons so you won't turn out like Holly, who can't even read").
A couple of incidents greatly expanded what I had known before, though, and
have changed my entire view of late readers. Holly was in a summer dance and
theatre "camp," a five day all-day set of sessions. I told the teachers she
wasn't a reader and requested they not ask her to read aloud. They were
using the book Barn Dance for the production, so we bought a copy a couple of days
before, and I read it to her several times. By the performance, some kids
hadn't memorized their assigned verse, but Holly had memorized hers and everyone
else's too. (The same thing happened in a play later. She couldn't be
dependent on a script she couldn't read, and ended up memorizing the whole thing.)
Later that year, she joined girl scouts, and I told the leaders she wasn't
reading. A schooled friend of hers offered to help her, but the "help"
consisted mostly of reminding the other girls and Holly that she, the friend, had to
help Holly read. Because that was the first time in their lives the friend
had been a step ahead of her, Holly let it slide. . There was a presentation
for parents one night. While the other kids were reading off paper,
mispronouncing “Juliet Lowe,” mumbling and covering their faces, Holly's portion of
the program was clear, involved eye contact and her own words
When she was eleven, I wrote this:
Holly wasn't reading at ten. She wasn't happy about it, either. She is at the
point now where she is reading words without meaning to. For fun she tries to
walk around the house without recognizing any words. At eleven, she's still
not reading chapter books. But if you met her and talked to her you wouldn't
think for a second, "I bet this kid doesn't even read," because there's not much
she can't talk about, and if she knows nothing about it but it sounds
interesting, she'll ask intelligent questions."
Though Holly wasn't reading, her vocabulary was sophisticated and she was
fascinated by the history of and connectedness of words. When she did start to
read, she had no reason to use easy books. She was still eleven when she did
her first real reading, a Judy Blume novel. She read two of those, and
moved on to Steven King's novelette The Body.
When she had only been reading a couple of months, we were sitting down to
watch "TheTwilight Zone," Holly reached over to move the Tank Girl comic books
she had been reading. One was called "The Odyssey." Then the DVD menu came
up, and one of the episodes was "The Odyssey of Flight 33." She commented on
it, and I said "You saw the word 'odyssey' twice in an hour? Cool!"
She said, "I saw the word 'odyssey' twice in one MINUTE!"
-----------------------
Holly is fourteen now (fourteen now (as of last Wednesday) and you would
never, ever know she "read late" if you met her, talked with her, or she discussed
what she was reading or had cause to read something aloud.
Rather than press your son to do what he's not ready to do, you could ask
that he bring the sheetmusic home, and go through it with him so he will know his
lines.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< > One way to rethink that phrase (in my mind) is to say that he's "a
child
want to do it and it is not at all enjoyable for him. He wants to
learn how to read but he doesn't want to work. >>>>
I think you missed the point of the rephrase which is that learning should
NOT be work - certainly not made into work by imposed teachings. It should
be joyful and seamless and effortless when the learner is truly ready.
<<< he doesn't want to do it..... He wants to learn how to read>>>>>
Well he either does or he doesn't...I still think it is YOU wanting him to
read now. Then you will be freed from having to read the interesting stuff
that fulfills his desires to him.
<<<<< But I want my son to learn how to read. I'm afraid that if I just stop
"teaching" him, that when other people find out he can't read they
will make a big deal about it. I'm afraid that this will make him feel
dumb and damage his self-esteem. >>>>>
Really? HIS self esteem - or yours? Your parenting being judged by the
others in your school-at-home community...might that not be the real
underlying issue?
Many of us have been there btw, especially from people who don't get
Unschooling. My answer has been to cleave more to the much smaller community
of real Unschoolers around me, and step away from the negative judgmental
folk.
<<< make him feel dumb and damage his self-esteem>>>>
As compared to being basically judged as lazy <<<< but he doesn't want to
work>>>> by the most important person in his life - his mother.
<<< I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in. >>>>
Those computer games are paths to reading that many parents have observed
their children joyfully taking - without the lessons.
Why aren't you reading to him from these sources? He doesn't NEED to read
right now to get all the learning and interests and fun that he wants, IF
you (or one of his sisters) would be willing to read TO him (ie on his
behalf) for the time being. Are you expecting him to be reading some "learn
to read" boring garbage from your curriculum before being permitted to use
the other interesting TO HIM materials?
Imagine if you needed reading glasses, and accidentally broke them. Until a
new pair could be purchased, wouldn't the loving family members want to help
by reading for you? People would not be judging you for not being able,
physically, to read - and they would know it was temporary.
<<<< So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work? >>>>>
By you backing off, reading anything HE wants to know the content of for
him, allowing him all the time he wants to play on the computer.
Susan
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
--
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child
> who doesn't think learning should be work".That's it! Learning how to read is very hard for him so he doesn't
want to do it and it is not at all enjoyable for him. He wants to
learn how to read but he doesn't want to work. >>>>
I think you missed the point of the rephrase which is that learning should
NOT be work - certainly not made into work by imposed teachings. It should
be joyful and seamless and effortless when the learner is truly ready.
<<< he doesn't want to do it..... He wants to learn how to read>>>>>
Well he either does or he doesn't...I still think it is YOU wanting him to
read now. Then you will be freed from having to read the interesting stuff
that fulfills his desires to him.
<<<<< But I want my son to learn how to read. I'm afraid that if I just stop
"teaching" him, that when other people find out he can't read they
will make a big deal about it. I'm afraid that this will make him feel
dumb and damage his self-esteem. >>>>>
Really? HIS self esteem - or yours? Your parenting being judged by the
others in your school-at-home community...might that not be the real
underlying issue?
Many of us have been there btw, especially from people who don't get
Unschooling. My answer has been to cleave more to the much smaller community
of real Unschoolers around me, and step away from the negative judgmental
folk.
<<< make him feel dumb and damage his self-esteem>>>>
As compared to being basically judged as lazy <<<< but he doesn't want to
work>>>> by the most important person in his life - his mother.
<<< I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in. >>>>
Those computer games are paths to reading that many parents have observed
their children joyfully taking - without the lessons.
Why aren't you reading to him from these sources? He doesn't NEED to read
right now to get all the learning and interests and fun that he wants, IF
you (or one of his sisters) would be willing to read TO him (ie on his
behalf) for the time being. Are you expecting him to be reading some "learn
to read" boring garbage from your curriculum before being permitted to use
the other interesting TO HIM materials?
Imagine if you needed reading glasses, and accidentally broke them. Until a
new pair could be purchased, wouldn't the loving family members want to help
by reading for you? People would not be judging you for not being able,
physically, to read - and they would know it was temporary.
<<<< So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work? >>>>>
By you backing off, reading anything HE wants to know the content of for
him, allowing him all the time he wants to play on the computer.
Susan
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Su Penn
On Nov 8, 2005, at 2:26 PM, mommyof7plus1 wrote:
website has a great story about her daughter Holly doing well--in some
ways better than kids who were reading--in a setting that "required
some ability to read." This story has really stayed with me since I
first read it some time ago: http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd
A local barbershop group has members who can't read music. They
practice their parts at home from tapes the director makes for them.
Unless your son is in a choir that regularly sight-reads words and
music, I can't see how reading would be necessary. Perhaps a little
planning and support will be needed. You might need to work with the
choir director. Perhaps reading along in the music to words he has
already memorized will be one tool he uses as he learns to read.
Your son won't feel ashamed of not reading yet unless someone teaches
him to be ashamed. Be careful that someone isn't you.
Don't let people make a big deal out of it (you are already making a
big deal out of it, and may get exactly the outcome you don't want). I
think it is also in Sandra Dodd's reading section that a mom talks
about how she matter-of-factly deflected pressure from others for her
son who was not yet reading, and how people were willing to follow her
lead in treating it as a perfectly OK thing. People sometimes want to
make a big deal out of my four-year-old sucking his thumb; it they
start to talk about it in front of him, I just put my hand on his
shoulder and say firmly, "Eric's thumb-sucking is between him and his
thumb." If they persist ("aren't you worried about his teeth? about it
destroying the bones of his face?" or whatever), I say, "excuse us,"
and lead Eric away. I won't let him be shamed.
If you really can't let go of the idea of teaching reading, you might
want to read "Read Right: Coaching Your Child to Excellence in Reading"
by Dee Tadlock. It's a very flawed book from an unschooling
perspective, but it approaches the teaching of reading from the
standpoint of how kids who learn to read without instruction do it. I
found the first half of the book, laying out research on how fluent
readers read and how self-learners do it, very helpful. The second
half, that creates a teaching method based on how people who learn to
read without teachers do it, was not so helpful to me, though I do love
a good irony (smile). But it might give you some ideas about creating
an environment of rich opportunity for your son to continue learning to
read (because I'm sure he is already somewhere on the reading
continuum) without formal lessons, more enjoyably and less pressured
for both of you.
Su
> But I want my son to learn how to read. I'm afraid that if I just stopI'll jump in and save Sandra Dodd the trouble of posting a link! Her
> "teaching" him, that when other people find out he can't read they
> will make a big deal about it. I'm afraid that this will make him feel
> dumb and damage his self-esteem. When he was younger it wasn't a
> problem but now that he is older he is involved in outside activities
> and they often require some ability to read (kids choir).
website has a great story about her daughter Holly doing well--in some
ways better than kids who were reading--in a setting that "required
some ability to read." This story has really stayed with me since I
first read it some time ago: http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd
A local barbershop group has members who can't read music. They
practice their parts at home from tapes the director makes for them.
Unless your son is in a choir that regularly sight-reads words and
music, I can't see how reading would be necessary. Perhaps a little
planning and support will be needed. You might need to work with the
choir director. Perhaps reading along in the music to words he has
already memorized will be one tool he uses as he learns to read.
Your son won't feel ashamed of not reading yet unless someone teaches
him to be ashamed. Be careful that someone isn't you.
Don't let people make a big deal out of it (you are already making a
big deal out of it, and may get exactly the outcome you don't want). I
think it is also in Sandra Dodd's reading section that a mom talks
about how she matter-of-factly deflected pressure from others for her
son who was not yet reading, and how people were willing to follow her
lead in treating it as a perfectly OK thing. People sometimes want to
make a big deal out of my four-year-old sucking his thumb; it they
start to talk about it in front of him, I just put my hand on his
shoulder and say firmly, "Eric's thumb-sucking is between him and his
thumb." If they persist ("aren't you worried about his teeth? about it
destroying the bones of his face?" or whatever), I say, "excuse us,"
and lead Eric away. I won't let him be shamed.
If you really can't let go of the idea of teaching reading, you might
want to read "Read Right: Coaching Your Child to Excellence in Reading"
by Dee Tadlock. It's a very flawed book from an unschooling
perspective, but it approaches the teaching of reading from the
standpoint of how kids who learn to read without instruction do it. I
found the first half of the book, laying out research on how fluent
readers read and how self-learners do it, very helpful. The second
half, that creates a teaching method based on how people who learn to
read without teachers do it, was not so helpful to me, though I do love
a good irony (smile). But it might give you some ideas about creating
an environment of rich opportunity for your son to continue learning to
read (because I'm sure he is already somewhere on the reading
continuum) without formal lessons, more enjoyably and less pressured
for both of you.
Su
frozenandcold
There has been a lot of responses on this already but I don't think
it has been mentioned that there are a lot of unschooled children
who didn't learn to read until 10, 11, 12, or even later that are
whole, healthy, happy kids (and adults). My son is 10 and doesn't
know how to read, he is slowly getting the hang of it though. I am
summoned SEVERAL times a day to read things for him and I do so
without any put downs or frustration and by doing that he is slowly
picking it up. Every once in a while he will bring me a beginner
reader book and he will want to try and read a couple of pages so I
know eventually he WILL learn how to read but what difference does
it make whether he learns how to read at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, or
13!!??? My son learns the things that are important to him without
knowing how to read because he has people around him that love and
care about him and help him with the necessary resources.
Bottom line is, and it has already been mentioned several times, you
CAN'T teach something to somebody who doesn't want to learn it. It
is IMPOSSIBLE, all you will do is destroy your relationship with
him!!!
Don't quote me on this, but I read that Denmark doesn't send their
children to compulsory school until age 8, so they are basically
getting no "academics" until age 8, and they have virtually no
illiteracy in their country. Maybe, just maybe we are trying to
shove academics down our children a little too early, and I am
speaking in terms of public school, obviously, not unschooling.
Heidi
it has been mentioned that there are a lot of unschooled children
who didn't learn to read until 10, 11, 12, or even later that are
whole, healthy, happy kids (and adults). My son is 10 and doesn't
know how to read, he is slowly getting the hang of it though. I am
summoned SEVERAL times a day to read things for him and I do so
without any put downs or frustration and by doing that he is slowly
picking it up. Every once in a while he will bring me a beginner
reader book and he will want to try and read a couple of pages so I
know eventually he WILL learn how to read but what difference does
it make whether he learns how to read at 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, or
13!!??? My son learns the things that are important to him without
knowing how to read because he has people around him that love and
care about him and help him with the necessary resources.
Bottom line is, and it has already been mentioned several times, you
CAN'T teach something to somebody who doesn't want to learn it. It
is IMPOSSIBLE, all you will do is destroy your relationship with
him!!!
Don't quote me on this, but I read that Denmark doesn't send their
children to compulsory school until age 8, so they are basically
getting no "academics" until age 8, and they have virtually no
illiteracy in their country. Maybe, just maybe we are trying to
shove academics down our children a little too early, and I am
speaking in terms of public school, obviously, not unschooling.
Heidi
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/8/05 1:14:05 PM, dezigna@... writes:
Just clarifying...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-By you backing off, reading anything HE wants to know the content of forThat was Robyn, who seems to have left Susan's name at the bottom. <g>
> him, allowing him all the time he wants to play on the computer.
>
> -=-Susan -=-
>
>
Just clarifying...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NANCY OWENS
mommyof7plus1 <scraven@...> wrote:
--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
want to do it and it is not at all enjoyable for him. He wants to
learn how to read but he doesn't want to work.
***I am 32 years old and I don't like to do things that are not at all enjoyable for me. Can't you just wait until he wants to learn to read? Let him play his video games, he will catch on to the reading thing fairly quick. Mine did. Buy comic books, graphic novels and the like. My son, Jack is 9.5 he loves to read Shonen Jump. It has episodes of all different Japanese anime in each issue. But if I had a curriculum with set books to read at set times and ages, I know Jack wouldn't read at all. It wouldn't be what he is interested in or what he cares about. Do you read things that don't interest you or that you don't care about? My husband and daughter love science fiction, I don't touch most of it. Give me a good detective or medical novel and I'm happy, combine the two and I'm in heaven. True stories, historical fiction, I'm all over it. Anime and manga, don't care for it or understand much of it, but I see the art in it, I see the time and creativity. Just because it is or isn't in
a curriculum doesn't mean it is or isn't worth reading. And just because someone isn't reading at 8, doesn't mean he won't be reading at 9 or 10 or 13 or even two weeks from now. Maybe the curriculum doesn't interest him? Why don't you just put it away and wait until he finds something that he is captured by and then he will learn to read because he is ready.***
Now, I don't have a problem with using a curriculum and giving my
children assignments (which is why I'm not an unschooler) but I do
have a problem with making them do something that they don't at all
enjoy or otherwise get no benefit from.
***I guess on an unschooling list this statement won't get you too far, because all I can see, advice wise coming from this list, is throw the curriculum away. If he isn't enjoying it, isn't benefiting from it, why keep at it?***
But I want my son to learn how to read.
*** He will, on his own, in his own time, when he is ready.***
I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in.
***When he really wants to do those things, and sees that he needs to be able to read to accomplish some of the more intricate games, and experiments then he will learn to read. In the mean time can't you just read to him?***
So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without it being work?
***You can't, and it won't not be work. You can help him to be ready to read by making all of his opportunities meaningful to him. And sometime in the next few weeks or months or years he will read.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--- In [email protected], Betsy Hill
<ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
> One way to rethink that phrase (in my mind) is to say that he's "achild
> who doesn't think learning should be work".That's it! Learning how to read is very hard for him so he doesn't
want to do it and it is not at all enjoyable for him. He wants to
learn how to read but he doesn't want to work.
***I am 32 years old and I don't like to do things that are not at all enjoyable for me. Can't you just wait until he wants to learn to read? Let him play his video games, he will catch on to the reading thing fairly quick. Mine did. Buy comic books, graphic novels and the like. My son, Jack is 9.5 he loves to read Shonen Jump. It has episodes of all different Japanese anime in each issue. But if I had a curriculum with set books to read at set times and ages, I know Jack wouldn't read at all. It wouldn't be what he is interested in or what he cares about. Do you read things that don't interest you or that you don't care about? My husband and daughter love science fiction, I don't touch most of it. Give me a good detective or medical novel and I'm happy, combine the two and I'm in heaven. True stories, historical fiction, I'm all over it. Anime and manga, don't care for it or understand much of it, but I see the art in it, I see the time and creativity. Just because it is or isn't in
a curriculum doesn't mean it is or isn't worth reading. And just because someone isn't reading at 8, doesn't mean he won't be reading at 9 or 10 or 13 or even two weeks from now. Maybe the curriculum doesn't interest him? Why don't you just put it away and wait until he finds something that he is captured by and then he will learn to read because he is ready.***
Now, I don't have a problem with using a curriculum and giving my
children assignments (which is why I'm not an unschooler) but I do
have a problem with making them do something that they don't at all
enjoy or otherwise get no benefit from.
***I guess on an unschooling list this statement won't get you too far, because all I can see, advice wise coming from this list, is throw the curriculum away. If he isn't enjoying it, isn't benefiting from it, why keep at it?***
But I want my son to learn how to read.
*** He will, on his own, in his own time, when he is ready.***
I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in.
***When he really wants to do those things, and sees that he needs to be able to read to accomplish some of the more intricate games, and experiments then he will learn to read. In the mean time can't you just read to him?***
So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without it being work?
***You can't, and it won't not be work. You can help him to be ready to read by making all of his opportunities meaningful to him. And sometime in the next few weeks or months or years he will read.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
<<I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in. >>
He can learn about science by watching the Science channel, working with
animals, playing games, playing in a pond, etc. With you at his side
answering his questions and reading for him, there is nothing he can't learn
even though he can't read. He's only 8. My kids learned a lot of words
while playing games on the computer. After they asked enough times, they
just knew them. The Sims, Zoo Tycoon, and Roller coaster Tycoon were their
favorite games that involved a lot of reading.
<<So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work?>>
By helping him to read the things he WANTS to read, like computer games and
magazines, comics, etc.
There is so much to think about that has been suggested on this list, it can
be overwhelming. I really hope you can relax and take it all in without
feeling defensive.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in. >>
He can learn about science by watching the Science channel, working with
animals, playing games, playing in a pond, etc. With you at his side
answering his questions and reading for him, there is nothing he can't learn
even though he can't read. He's only 8. My kids learned a lot of words
while playing games on the computer. After they asked enough times, they
just knew them. The Sims, Zoo Tycoon, and Roller coaster Tycoon were their
favorite games that involved a lot of reading.
<<So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work?>>
By helping him to read the things he WANTS to read, like computer games and
magazines, comics, etc.
There is so much to think about that has been suggested on this list, it can
be overwhelming. I really hope you can relax and take it all in without
feeling defensive.
Angela
Game-enthusiast@...
"List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
<http://www.unschooling.info>
Yahoo! Groups Links
Vicki A. Dennis
Angela is absolutely correct. It is not AT ALL unusual for children to
be 9 or 10 years old before they learn to read or have an interest in
putting effort into the task. But if they have developed an aversion or
internalized really confusing "stuff" because they were forced before they
were developmentally ready, then they may well be older before starting
and will also take longer to develop competency. Of course, even some
who are not forced will not focus on it until older than 10 anyway.
It has been my strongly held belief for decades that we cause a lot of our
"reading disabilities" or "permanently behind grade level" readers by
the recent obsession of "teaching" reading starting in kindergarten (or
even younger).
That said, yes I do understand that it can be scary in a book oriented home
to have a child not finding pleasure or competence in reading. When my
older son went from non reading at age 9 to high school level by age 10,
it seems I "should" have learned something. But when his brother was also
a "late" (by SOME folks standards) reader, I still worried. Worrying
may be just the nature of mommies, but it really is in our children's best
interests to not let that worrying push us into pushing them!.
Since your son already has a reading aversion and probably considers himself
not quite smart .....your task is to assure him that the time will come and
he will be able to read even better than his current age peers. And that in
the meantime you are available to help him with ways to "compensate" for
him not having that particular skill yet. For example, reading to him
or answering questions or getting audio tapes. Don't mistake forcing
teaching sessions on him as "helping". He is a child who wants to
learn.....but learning to read may not be what he needs at present. How
unfortunate to place that as a barrier preventing him access to
Vicki
P.S.: You could utilize the time that is freed up for both him and
yourself by doing away with reading "lessons" for him by instead having
lots of reading sessions for yourself (if that IS a means that YOU learn
by) in order to come to an understanding and, more importantly, an
internalized belief, that what is needed for your son to learn is for you
to stop putting obstacles in his path.
P.P.S.: That sounded harsher than I really meant. It IS hard,
particularly if your own experience was reading early and enjoying reading,
But to label as a child as "doesn't want to learn" is extremely harsh.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Angela
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 11:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What do you do with a child who doesn't
want to learn?
I say give him time and space. And
he may need more time now after trying to force him before he was interested
and ready. Good luck.
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be 9 or 10 years old before they learn to read or have an interest in
putting effort into the task. But if they have developed an aversion or
internalized really confusing "stuff" because they were forced before they
were developmentally ready, then they may well be older before starting
and will also take longer to develop competency. Of course, even some
who are not forced will not focus on it until older than 10 anyway.
It has been my strongly held belief for decades that we cause a lot of our
"reading disabilities" or "permanently behind grade level" readers by
the recent obsession of "teaching" reading starting in kindergarten (or
even younger).
That said, yes I do understand that it can be scary in a book oriented home
to have a child not finding pleasure or competence in reading. When my
older son went from non reading at age 9 to high school level by age 10,
it seems I "should" have learned something. But when his brother was also
a "late" (by SOME folks standards) reader, I still worried. Worrying
may be just the nature of mommies, but it really is in our children's best
interests to not let that worrying push us into pushing them!.
Since your son already has a reading aversion and probably considers himself
not quite smart .....your task is to assure him that the time will come and
he will be able to read even better than his current age peers. And that in
the meantime you are available to help him with ways to "compensate" for
him not having that particular skill yet. For example, reading to him
or answering questions or getting audio tapes. Don't mistake forcing
teaching sessions on him as "helping". He is a child who wants to
learn.....but learning to read may not be what he needs at present. How
unfortunate to place that as a barrier preventing him access to
Vicki
P.S.: You could utilize the time that is freed up for both him and
yourself by doing away with reading "lessons" for him by instead having
lots of reading sessions for yourself (if that IS a means that YOU learn
by) in order to come to an understanding and, more importantly, an
internalized belief, that what is needed for your son to learn is for you
to stop putting obstacles in his path.
P.P.S.: That sounded harsher than I really meant. It IS hard,
particularly if your own experience was reading early and enjoying reading,
But to label as a child as "doesn't want to learn" is extremely harsh.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Angela
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 11:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [UnschoolingDiscussion] What do you do with a child who doesn't
want to learn?
I say give him time and space. And
he may need more time now after trying to force him before he was interested
and ready. Good luck.
Angela
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: mommyof7plus1 <scraven@...>
Now, I don't have a problem with using a curriculum and giving my
children assignments (which is why I'm not an unschooler)
-=-=-=-
Clue #1----NOT an unschooler and doesn't WANT to be.
-=-=-=-=-=
But I want my son to learn how to read. I'm afraid that if I just stop
"teaching" him, that when other people find out he can't read they
will make a big deal about it. I'm afraid that this will make him feel
dumb and damage his self-esteem.
-=-=-=-
Clue #2---it's about mom, NOT the child. I think his self-esteem is damaged already. He already feels dumb---
at least dumber than his sister.
-=-=-=-=-
At home, it is not a big deal. I have always emphasized that everybody
has things they are good at and things that are harder for them. He
doesn't have any problem with the fact that his younger sister can
read better than he can because HE knows how to invent things and
build things. Something she can't (or doesn't want) to do.
-=-=-=-=-
Clue #3. Do you make HER invent and build things? 'Cause THAT's a pretty important skill to have!
Comparison's OK. Contrasting's NOT?
-=-=-=-
I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in.
-=-=-=-=-
Clue #4. It's not about the LEARNING. It's about the READING.
-=-=-=-=-
So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work?
-=-=-=-
Clue #5. Learning is play. AND learning IS work. But the work is worth it if you want it enough. In fact,
that hard work is pleasurable!
You use Rod and Staff, so I'm guessing you're Christian.
You'll listen to others more than you listen to your own children.
I don't think anyone else is understanding where you're coming from. You DON'T want to become an unschooler.
You want to know how to get him to read.
OK. My suggestion will probably work in your situation.
Ban reading. Forbid it.
His trust in you is broken already. If you forbid it---don't allow it in any way, shape or form, I'm
pretty sure he'll jump right on it as most kids who have such restrictions do.
No more reading. Until he's 16. THEN he'll be allowed to read what *you* pick out for him.
~KellyKelly LovejoyConference Coordinator Live and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: mommyof7plus1 <scraven@...>
Now, I don't have a problem with using a curriculum and giving my
children assignments (which is why I'm not an unschooler)
-=-=-=-
Clue #1----NOT an unschooler and doesn't WANT to be.
-=-=-=-=-=
But I want my son to learn how to read. I'm afraid that if I just stop
"teaching" him, that when other people find out he can't read they
will make a big deal about it. I'm afraid that this will make him feel
dumb and damage his self-esteem.
-=-=-=-
Clue #2---it's about mom, NOT the child. I think his self-esteem is damaged already. He already feels dumb---
at least dumber than his sister.
-=-=-=-=-
At home, it is not a big deal. I have always emphasized that everybody
has things they are good at and things that are harder for them. He
doesn't have any problem with the fact that his younger sister can
read better than he can because HE knows how to invent things and
build things. Something she can't (or doesn't want) to do.
-=-=-=-=-
Clue #3. Do you make HER invent and build things? 'Cause THAT's a pretty important skill to have!
Comparison's OK. Contrasting's NOT?
-=-=-=-
I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do more
of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
you have to read, read books that he is interested in.
-=-=-=-=-
Clue #4. It's not about the LEARNING. It's about the READING.
-=-=-=-=-
So how can I help him learn how to read? How can he learn how without
it being work?
-=-=-=-
Clue #5. Learning is play. AND learning IS work. But the work is worth it if you want it enough. In fact,
that hard work is pleasurable!
You use Rod and Staff, so I'm guessing you're Christian.
You'll listen to others more than you listen to your own children.
I don't think anyone else is understanding where you're coming from. You DON'T want to become an unschooler.
You want to know how to get him to read.
OK. My suggestion will probably work in your situation.
Ban reading. Forbid it.
His trust in you is broken already. If you forbid it---don't allow it in any way, shape or form, I'm
pretty sure he'll jump right on it as most kids who have such restrictions do.
No more reading. Until he's 16. THEN he'll be allowed to read what *you* pick out for him.
~KellyKelly LovejoyConference Coordinator Live and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** Ban reading. Forbid it.
His trust in you is broken already. If you forbid it---don't allow it in
any way, shape or form, I'm
pretty sure he'll jump right on it as most kids who have such
restrictions do.**
Fun.
But to be really effective, she'd have to ban all the kids from reading.
Betsy
His trust in you is broken already. If you forbid it---don't allow it in
any way, shape or form, I'm
pretty sure he'll jump right on it as most kids who have such
restrictions do.**
Fun.
But to be really effective, she'd have to ban all the kids from reading.
Betsy
NANCY OWENS
Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
Kelly wrote:
** Ban reading. Forbid it.
Betsy wrote:
**Fun.
But to be really effective, she'd have to ban all the kids from reading.***
I say she doesn't have to ban all the kids. Since she has 7 girls and only one boy, and since she compares all the girls to her only boy all the time (evident even in her email address *mommyof7+1* or what ever it is), then by baning only him from reading will be *terribly* effective. IMHO
But Kelly is right, she doesn't want to solve *her* problem. She admitted as much in her first post, when she said she had posed the same question to school-at-homers and no one there could give her satisfactory answers so she came here with fingers crossed that the unschoolers could maybe, possibly have the magical answer there-by giving her the control to have her only son reading by the end of the week, month,
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly wrote:
** Ban reading. Forbid it.
Betsy wrote:
**Fun.
But to be really effective, she'd have to ban all the kids from reading.***
I say she doesn't have to ban all the kids. Since she has 7 girls and only one boy, and since she compares all the girls to her only boy all the time (evident even in her email address *mommyof7+1* or what ever it is), then by baning only him from reading will be *terribly* effective. IMHO
But Kelly is right, she doesn't want to solve *her* problem. She admitted as much in her first post, when she said she had posed the same question to school-at-homers and no one there could give her satisfactory answers so she came here with fingers crossed that the unschoolers could maybe, possibly have the magical answer there-by giving her the control to have her only son reading by the end of the week, month,
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
> <<I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do morePlease do not make him wait until he can read fluently before he can
> of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
> experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
> you have to read, read books that he is interested in. >
learn/do other things. He doesn't even have to wait in order to read
books he is interested in - there are so MANY wonderful books out in
audible format - invest in a little mp3 player (like an iPod Shuffle)
and he can download books from audible.com or buy books on cd and put
them on the computer and then transfer them to the mp3 player.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
April
This is exactly why my now 14 year old son didn't read until he was 12.
What he wanted to learn couldn't be done with books for beginner readers.
Even at 7 and 8, his interests were way beyond beginner reader books. He
quite literally didn't want to read, and didn't see a need to read at that
point. In fact, he hated those beginner reader books. We would get the
books he wanted from the library and he would pore over illustrations and I
would read them to him. He could understand them, just not read them. It was
too hard to try to read at that level. We also did LOTS of books on tape
(still do) and used our cable tv, videos, local museums, and whatever else
seemed appropriate. This boy learned massive amounts of stuff he was
interested without reading a single word. Then he discovered Pokemon and all
their related guide books. Now that was a reason to read!! He reads with no
problem. He is not particularly interested in reading fiction, he would
rather do fiction in audio form. But if he needs information, he can read
anything he wants now.
~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-16, Karl-14, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
<http://www.reachhomeschool.com> www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art! <http://www.artkunst23.com/>
http://www.artkunst23.com
"Know where to find the information and how to use it - That's the secret of
success."
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
_____
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pamela
Sorooshian
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Learning shouldn't be work
learn/do other things. He doesn't even have to wait in order to read
books he is interested in - there are so MANY wonderful books out in
audible format - invest in a little mp3 player (like an iPod Shuffle)
and he can download books from audible.com or buy books on cd and put
them on the computer and then transfer them to the mp3 player.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What he wanted to learn couldn't be done with books for beginner readers.
Even at 7 and 8, his interests were way beyond beginner reader books. He
quite literally didn't want to read, and didn't see a need to read at that
point. In fact, he hated those beginner reader books. We would get the
books he wanted from the library and he would pore over illustrations and I
would read them to him. He could understand them, just not read them. It was
too hard to try to read at that level. We also did LOTS of books on tape
(still do) and used our cable tv, videos, local museums, and whatever else
seemed appropriate. This boy learned massive amounts of stuff he was
interested without reading a single word. Then he discovered Pokemon and all
their related guide books. Now that was a reason to read!! He reads with no
problem. He is not particularly interested in reading fiction, he would
rather do fiction in audio form. But if he needs information, he can read
anything he wants now.
~April
Mom to Kate-19, Lisa-16, Karl-14, & Ben-10.
*REACH Homeschool Grp, an inclusive group in Oakland County
<http://www.reachhomeschool.com> www.reachhomeschool.com
* Michigan Unschoolers
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/>
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/michigan_unschoolers/
*Check out Chuck's art! <http://www.artkunst23.com/>
http://www.artkunst23.com
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From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pamela
Sorooshian
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 3:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Learning shouldn't be work
> <<I want him to learn how to read because it will allow him to do morePlease do not make him wait until he can read fluently before he can
> of the things he wants to do: learn about science and do science
> experiments, play games on the computer that have instructions that
> you have to read, read books that he is interested in. >
learn/do other things. He doesn't even have to wait in order to read
books he is interested in - there are so MANY wonderful books out in
audible format - invest in a little mp3 player (like an iPod Shuffle)
and he can download books from audible.com or buy books on cd and put
them on the computer and then transfer them to the mp3 player.
-pam
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mommyof7plus1
--- In [email protected], NANCY OWENS
<nancy-owens@s...> wrote:
Funny how this is turning into "Let's bash the mom who isn't an
unschooler".
Your hateful attitude towards those who don't unschool gives
unschoolers a bad name. I came here to learn, not to be attacked.
Susan
all the time (evident even in her email address *mommyof7+1* or what
ever it is), then by baning only him from reading will be *terribly*
effective. IMHO
same question to school-at-homers and no one there could give her
satisfactory answers so she came here with fingers crossed that the
unschoolers could maybe, possibly have the magical answer there-by
giving her the control to have her only son reading by the end of the
week, month,
<nancy-owens@s...> wrote:
Funny how this is turning into "Let's bash the mom who isn't an
unschooler".
Your hateful attitude towards those who don't unschool gives
unschoolers a bad name. I came here to learn, not to be attacked.
Susan
>reading.***
>
>
> Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@s...> wrote:
> Kelly wrote:
>
> ** Ban reading. Forbid it.
>
> Betsy wrote:
> **Fun.
>
> But to be really effective, she'd have to ban all the kids from
>and only one boy, and since she compares all the girls to her only boy
> I say she doesn't have to ban all the kids. Since she has 7 girls
all the time (evident even in her email address *mommyof7+1* or what
ever it is), then by baning only him from reading will be *terribly*
effective. IMHO
>admitted as much in her first post, when she said she had posed the
>
>
> But Kelly is right, she doesn't want to solve *her* problem. She
same question to school-at-homers and no one there could give her
satisfactory answers so she came here with fingers crossed that the
unschoolers could maybe, possibly have the magical answer there-by
giving her the control to have her only son reading by the end of the
week, month,
>
> ~Nancy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>