D C

my 12 yr old was upset today because his public school
friend was talking about his homework, and my son
wasn't familiar with some of the 7th grade curriculum
and concepts that his friend was talking about. always
having been the "brain" between the two, my son didn't
like being ignorant this time. (i've already talked to
him about chilling out on competing in this way etc)
but he blurted out "i'm getting dumber!" "everyone
else is learning more than me, and you aren't teaching
me anything"
we had a long talk and he calmed down. but of course,
his words stuck with me since this is only my 2.5 yr
of doing homeschooling, and my first year of really
embracing unschooling. i have worried many times that
i'm "dumbing them down" because i'm not using a
curriculum and not keeping up with the joneses/public
school thing. i know that the kids in public school
are doing more than we are, and it's hard to swallow
sometimes. it feels like we're slacking off lots of
times. i don't know. i just could use anyone's
expertise in this area right now. thanks! DC



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Ren Allen

" i have worried many times that
i'm "dumbing them down" because i'm not using a
curriculum and not keeping up with the joneses/public
school thing. i know that the kids in public school
are doing more than we are, and it's hard to swallow
sometimes. it feels like we're slacking off lots of
times. i don't know."


Hmmm...it sound like you don't trust unschooling 100%. These kind of
issues are explored often at unschoolingbasics.

I have a hard time with anyone thinking that allowing a child to
explore their interests in freedom is "dumbing them down"!!
Memorizing a set of facts is preferable to creative thinking...HOW?

Good that your child doesn't know the same things! GOOD!!

He shouldn't. No one on earth should have the exact same body of
knowledge...we are UNIQUE individuals, with different purposes for our
life journey. Why on earth should we know the same thing?

The only place in life that anyone is supposed to have the same body
of knowledge is that false environment we call school. Where else in
life is anyone expected to know ALL the exact same things? Some of
our areas of knowledge overlap other people's, but I don't know ANYONE
on this earth with the exact same knowledge I have.

Rejoice that your child doesn't know a bunch of trivial BS that is
meant to shut down creativity, trap people in dead end jobs and rob JOY.

Do me a favor, and go to starchildstudio.com. Go to the "links" page
and visit some of the sites on creative thinking. THOSE are the
important traits in life...the ability to adapt your knowledge, the
ability to learn, the ability to THINK.

Someone posted the "traits of success" recently. Could someone point
her to that list? It has NOTHING to do with the body of "knowledge"
being taught in school.

Ren

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 5, 2005, at 2:43 AM, D C wrote:

> i have worried many times that
> i'm "dumbing them down" because i'm not using a
> curriculum and not keeping up with the joneses/public
> school thing. i know that the kids in public school
> are doing more than we are, and it's hard to swallow
> sometimes. it feels like we're slacking off lots of
> times. i don't know. i just could use anyone's
> expertise in this area right now. thanks! DC

You have perhaps forgotten, yourself, that those kids will forget 99
percent of what they are taught in school?

They are almost certainly "covering" a lot of material that your son
isn't being exposed to - so accept that as a fact. Unschoolers are
NOT going for that kind of education - the mile-wide and an inch-deep
kind. I just have to laugh when I picture all these historians and
special interest types sitting in meeting after meeting, deciding
what is going to get included in the state standards. They argue
about how many sentences will be devoted to Columbus versus Sequoia
versus so-and-so..... AS IF IT MATTERS! The level of pretense, the
amazing amount of denial that they live in - it never fails to
astound me.

Find out what the friend is supposed to be studying. Some specific
subject - like if you were in California and he was in 4th grade he'd
be studying the Missions. Find some information about it and quiz
him on anything beyond the most basic facts. "How many missions were
there? WHY that number?" He probably won't be able to answer the
basic facts, if he's already had the test on them he'll have
forgotten them, but he almost CERTAINLY won't have a clue about the
"why" questions.

And don't worry about it too much since it doesn't happen often that
school kids WANT to talk about stuff they're being taught in school
since they usually aren't much interested in it.

My 14 yo hangs around with a lot of school kids - soccer, girl
scouts. They talk about school a lot - but NEVER what they're
supposed to be learning. They talk about how mean the teachers are
and how hot or not hot the boys are. That's about it.

-pam





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jimpetersonl

Help him find the information and the subject matter he feels he's
missing; he's ready and interested and wants to learn something
specific and needs a little guidance.

It's what he needs and wants now. The (apparent) reason he needs and
wants it is beside the point and has nothing to do with unschooling.
When he's better-developed research skills (and, perhaps as with my
youngest DH, a friendship with the research librarian), I think you'll
see him begin to engage in his own projects, following more internal
interests.

*I* don't like "not knowing" when something comes up in casual
conversation . . . it's part of who I am, and I'm frustrated when I
can't find out. I suspect your son feels much the same way.

~Sue
0900S009



> my 12 yr old was upset today because his public school
> friend was talking about his homework, and my son
> wasn't familiar with some of the 7th grade curriculum
> and concepts that his friend was talking about. always
> having been the "brain" between the two, my son didn't
> like being ignorant this time. (i've already talked to
> him about chilling out on competing in this way etc)
> but he blurted out "i'm getting dumber!" "everyone
> else is learning more than me, and you aren't teaching
> me anything"
> we had a long talk and he calmed down. but of course,
> his words stuck with me since this is only my 2.5 yr
> of doing homeschooling, and my first year of really
> embracing unschooling. i have worried many times that
> i'm "dumbing them down" because i'm not using a
> curriculum and not keeping up with the joneses/public
> school thing. i know that the kids in public school
> are doing more than we are, and it's hard to swallow
> sometimes. it feels like we're slacking off lots of
> times. i don't know. i just could use anyone's
> expertise in this area right now. thanks! DC

frozenandcold

*my 12 yr old was upset today because his public school
friend was talking about his homework, and my son
wasn't familiar with some of the 7th grade curriculum
and concepts that his friend was talking about. always
having been the "brain" between the two, my son didn't
like being ignorant this time. (i've already talked to
him about chilling out on competing in this way etc)
but he blurted out "i'm getting dumber!" "everyone
else is learning more than me, and you aren't teaching
me anything"*


Well, the difference between you and I is that I don't worry at all!!
My son knows lots of things that public school kids don't know and
they are things that are going to serve him much better in his unique
life. On the other hand, my son did come to me about 8 months ago
begging me to buy him a curriculum???????????????????????????????? I
was a little taken back because we have never really used a
curriculum, even in our more "schooly" days.

I pretty much ignored his requests, thinking that he was getting
pressure from his public school friends, but he kept bringing it up
over and over again. Finally sometime in August he got quite
persistent with me so we sat down and discussed why he would want a
curriculum. Turns out he has a lot of interests and he thought a
curriculum would give him great ideas and maybe expose him to
something that I would not think of. So..............I broke down and
bought him a curriculum. So far he has worked on two math lessons and
two social studies lessons. The social studies was on Elizabethan
England and it actually sparked quite an interest. Him and I would
sit on the couch for hours reading books that we got from the
library.

I do think that some of his deeper reasons had to do with his public
school friends because I have heard their conversations and they seem
extremely worried that he is ruining his life by not doing "school".
He always has some great unschooling comebacks that they stutter at
answering back. The wonderful thing is that he is free to explore the
curriculum if he wants and free to ignore it if he wants; if something
sparks his interest and leads to other things then great, whatever. I
think he is figuring out though that about 80% of it is just silly.

The best thing for me is that he really hasn't had much formal math,
except for the basic adding when he was around 1st grade and he didn't
have any trouble at all picking up 7th grade math, not like I worried
anyway because I know he will get what he needs because that is what
kids do that are left to explore on their own!!

Heidi

Pamela Sorooshian

On Nov 5, 2005, at 9:01 AM, jimpetersonl wrote:

> Help him find the information and the subject matter he feels he's
> missing; he's ready and interested and wants to learn something
> specific and needs a little guidance.

He isn't asking to learn something specific - he's worried that other
kids in school are learning more than he is. Totally different. This
advice makes it sound like kids will be "ready" at some point to
learn what kids in school are learning. Perhaps that is what you
think unschoolers are doing - waiting for our kids to be "ready" to
learn what kids are learning in school? Not so.

>
> It's what he needs and wants now.

Oh my. How can WE on this list be so sure that we know what he
"needs" and "wants" now?

> The (apparent) reason he needs and
> wants it is beside the point and has nothing to do with unschooling.

The REASON for needing and wanting something doesn't matter? It has
NOTHING to do with unschooling? What a strange thing to say.
Unschooling involves learning because the learning is meaningful, it
matters, it is useful, it is pleasurable, it is perceived as
personally valuable. It isn't learning what kids in school learn so
as not to be "behind."

> When he's better-developed research skills (and, perhaps as with my
> youngest DH, a friendship with the research librarian), I think you'll
> see him begin to engage in his own projects, following more internal
> interests.

I think you don't know him and that this is very strange advice on an
unschooling list. Unless I missed some posts, there was no indication
that this kid has any interest in research, developing research
skills, libraries, research librarians, or anything else, in particular.

>
> *I* don't like "not knowing" when something comes up in casual
> conversation . . . it's part of who I am, and I'm frustrated when I
> can't find out. I suspect your son feels much the same way.

Maybe. Or maybe, like his mom explained here, he's just thinking
that he isn't learning as much as kids in school and he's worrying
about it.

-pam



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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/5/05 3:51:25 AM, deanacarpenter@... writes:


> -=-i have worried many times that
> i'm "dumbing them down" because i'm not using a
> curriculum and not keeping up with the joneses/public
> school thing.-=-
>
Where are you sitting while you're doing this worry?
Do you think school would help?

I'll get back to those questions. You don't need to answer them for us, but
consider them for yourself.

-=- i know that the kids in public school
are doing more than we are, and it's hard to swallow
sometimes.-=-

Don't even put it in your mouth. Don't even look at it.
"Doing more" means something to you that I doubt it means objectively to
others reading this. I hope it does, anyway. "Doing more" of something...
You're looking at school and schoolkids. You're still living in the shadow of
school. School is too big in your life.

-=- it feels like we're slacking off lots of
times.-=-

I'm guessing if you got out of your house more, went places (not the library,
or not the library more than maybe 5% of the time), saw/smelled/heard/touched
and tasted new things you would not feel like a slacker.

Back to that earlier business, and another question. If this is the first
year you have "really embraced unschooling," do you mean this year beginning in
August or September? Or January 2005? Deschooling is more important for
you than for your son, and his deschooling will need to include those two
years or however much of school at home, too. Yours, though, will need to
inclucde those two years plus all the years you were defending school when he was
younger, plus all the years you attended school yourself. At one month per
year of school... You probably won't be able to really understand or relax into
unschooling for a while, but starting is the place to start!


> -=-i have worried many times that
> i'm "dumbing them down" because i'm not using a
> curriculum and not keeping up with the joneses/public
> school thing.-=-
>
**Where are you sitting while you're doing this worry?

Get up and move and do and be. Don't worry. And certainly don't worry
many times.


**Do you think school would help?

Would school be better than what you're doing now?
If not, then DO what you want to do. BE what you want to be. Don't just
think about it and worry about it lots and even harbor the slightest thought of
"keeping up with the joneses" which you have defined as what it seems kids at
school are doing.

If you think what kids at school do is the measure of what is right and good,
you could put your son in school.

If you have chosen not to have him in school, remind yourself of why.

Sandra







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[email protected]

In a message dated 11/5/05 2:06:10 PM, fivefreebirds@... writes:


> -=-Turns out he has a lot of interests and he thought a
> curriculum would give him great ideas and maybe expose him to
> something that I would not think of.  So..............I broke down and
> bought him a curriculum.-=-
>
I hope you didn't spend much on it.

World Book has a freebie one here:

http://www.worldbook.com/wc/browse?id=pa/tcs

World Book Typical Course of study, by grade. And you don't need to buy
their encyclopedia; you can find things in your house, on google (and help your
son figure out how to find them). He'll figure out pretty quickly that the
same things exist in the real world.

-=-The social studies was on Elizabethan
England and it actually sparked quite an interest. -=-

Did you rent any movies? It's racy in parts, but if he doesn't get it
doesn't: Black Adder, the second series, is set in Elizabethan England. Any
Shakespeare play could be good.

http://sandradodd.com/shakespeare
http://sandradodd.com/strew/shakespeare

Sandra






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

frozenandcold

<Did you rent any movies? It's racy in parts, but if he doesn't get
it
doesn't: Black Adder, the second series, is set in Elizabethan
England. Any
Shakespeare play could be good.>

Thanks Sandra, we haven't watched that so I will check it out. Yes,
we have been doing the Shakespeare thing, he finds it all so
fascinating so that has been a very cool thing. I did spend more
than I would have liked but it does have some pretty cool stuff in
it that has even sparked my interest so I just keep all the lessons
(ideas) in a folder so if anyone wants ideas for things to do it can
serve more of a reference than anything.

We also found out about a outdoor Shakespeare theatre in Oregon that
is supposedly set up like one of the originals that we plan on
visiting on our trip around the country. They have it set up so
that you can take in up to three shows a day.

Heidi