Emotional support for new unschoolers
Amy Childs
I really appreciate that this list exists. I appreciate that the
owners and other long-time unschoolers are so generous with their
time, their knowledge and experience, that they are willing to answer
so many questions, over and over again, in a thousand slightly
different ways. I am grateful that an easy forum exists, for free,
where we can gather and store so much useful information about
unschooling.
Something that I have seen again and again, between the lines of the
messages here, is the emotional process that most people go through,
on their way into unschooling. (I am a therapist/life-coach, and so
the inner journey is always the part that speaks the loudest to me.)
There is so much that this list offers to people to people in this
process. This is a place to find new ideas, a place to have mistaken
beliefs challenged, a place where harmful patterns are exposed. This
creates an opportunity to replace old ways of thinking with new ones
that are more conducive to the trust, freedom and joy that so many of
us experience (or want to experience) as unschoolers.
What is missing from this list (and there is no way to add it, this
is not a complaint but an observation), is the real human tender
connection that most people need when they are doing the work of re-
evaluating, exposing old wounds, and committing to a new way of
life. To move from the belief that children cannot be trusted, that
learning only happens when forced and that children are not full
human beings to a place of trust in the inner selves of our
children (not to mention ourselves, and all people) requires a deep
shift in our psyche. In my experience, this shift is simply not
possible without going through all kinds of emotional pain and
struggle, and I have seen countless messages on this list testify to
this fundamental reality.
This new birth of unschooling- requires a labor of sorts, and what
I want to say here is that laboring women need midwives. There is a
lot we can do to learn about birth new ideas, good suggestions,
information that helps us understand birth all of this intellectual
work can help women immensely. But when the real labor pain hits,
all the "facts" of the situation are of no help at all, in comparison
to the midwife who looks at us in the eyes, wipes our brow, and holds
our hand.
I want new unschoolers (and all of us) to understand, that as
wonderful and irreplaceable as this list is for providing a place to
discuss and learn about unschooling, it is not a replacement for the
real-life emotional support that most (if not all) of us need on this
journey.
When I read new unschoolers questions, I can't help but hear the
anguish behind their words. I want to reach out to them, to hold
them while they cry, to listen to their hearts speak, to comfort
their fears and release their shame. But this is a yahoo list, a
computer screen, a series of 1s and 0s that does an amazing job of
communicating thoughts around the world. It really is not the forum
for touching skin to skin, or wiping away tears.
I don't know where to tell new unschoolers to go for this kind of
emotional support. Maybe you will be lucky and have a best friend,
sibling or parent, who fully understands your struggle and will
support you along the way. Maybe you will find a therapist who
understands unschooling and who will midwife you through your
emotional process to your new life. I have seen advertisements for
unschooling-friendly therapists in *Life Learning* magazine, and
perhaps they could be a wonderful resource for a phone connection.
I often see people try to overcome emotional struggle using
intellectual rigor. Sometimes that works. But if you are someone
who is in emotional struggle, and if the answers on this list aren't
helping you get to the bottom of your pain, I want you to know that
this is neither because of your or the list's failure. It is because
you need something that this list doesn't (and never claimed to)
provide. I encourage you to find someone who will be your midwife
at your side, as you give birth to something precious and wonderful.
In the end, I think you'll find that the labor was worth it.
owners and other long-time unschoolers are so generous with their
time, their knowledge and experience, that they are willing to answer
so many questions, over and over again, in a thousand slightly
different ways. I am grateful that an easy forum exists, for free,
where we can gather and store so much useful information about
unschooling.
Something that I have seen again and again, between the lines of the
messages here, is the emotional process that most people go through,
on their way into unschooling. (I am a therapist/life-coach, and so
the inner journey is always the part that speaks the loudest to me.)
There is so much that this list offers to people to people in this
process. This is a place to find new ideas, a place to have mistaken
beliefs challenged, a place where harmful patterns are exposed. This
creates an opportunity to replace old ways of thinking with new ones
that are more conducive to the trust, freedom and joy that so many of
us experience (or want to experience) as unschoolers.
What is missing from this list (and there is no way to add it, this
is not a complaint but an observation), is the real human tender
connection that most people need when they are doing the work of re-
evaluating, exposing old wounds, and committing to a new way of
life. To move from the belief that children cannot be trusted, that
learning only happens when forced and that children are not full
human beings to a place of trust in the inner selves of our
children (not to mention ourselves, and all people) requires a deep
shift in our psyche. In my experience, this shift is simply not
possible without going through all kinds of emotional pain and
struggle, and I have seen countless messages on this list testify to
this fundamental reality.
This new birth of unschooling- requires a labor of sorts, and what
I want to say here is that laboring women need midwives. There is a
lot we can do to learn about birth new ideas, good suggestions,
information that helps us understand birth all of this intellectual
work can help women immensely. But when the real labor pain hits,
all the "facts" of the situation are of no help at all, in comparison
to the midwife who looks at us in the eyes, wipes our brow, and holds
our hand.
I want new unschoolers (and all of us) to understand, that as
wonderful and irreplaceable as this list is for providing a place to
discuss and learn about unschooling, it is not a replacement for the
real-life emotional support that most (if not all) of us need on this
journey.
When I read new unschoolers questions, I can't help but hear the
anguish behind their words. I want to reach out to them, to hold
them while they cry, to listen to their hearts speak, to comfort
their fears and release their shame. But this is a yahoo list, a
computer screen, a series of 1s and 0s that does an amazing job of
communicating thoughts around the world. It really is not the forum
for touching skin to skin, or wiping away tears.
I don't know where to tell new unschoolers to go for this kind of
emotional support. Maybe you will be lucky and have a best friend,
sibling or parent, who fully understands your struggle and will
support you along the way. Maybe you will find a therapist who
understands unschooling and who will midwife you through your
emotional process to your new life. I have seen advertisements for
unschooling-friendly therapists in *Life Learning* magazine, and
perhaps they could be a wonderful resource for a phone connection.
I often see people try to overcome emotional struggle using
intellectual rigor. Sometimes that works. But if you are someone
who is in emotional struggle, and if the answers on this list aren't
helping you get to the bottom of your pain, I want you to know that
this is neither because of your or the list's failure. It is because
you need something that this list doesn't (and never claimed to)
provide. I encourage you to find someone who will be your midwife
at your side, as you give birth to something precious and wonderful.
In the end, I think you'll find that the labor was worth it.
[email protected]
The original of this topic is from Amy Childs
who sent this post:
FROM: amyc@...
DATE: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:55:34 -0000
SUBJECT: emotional support for new unschoolers
Oops, I think I forgot to sign my post.
~Amy Childs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
who sent this post:
FROM: amyc@...
DATE: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 19:55:34 -0000
SUBJECT: emotional support for new unschoolers
Oops, I think I forgot to sign my post.
~Amy Childs
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
>It still would be "just a list," but maybe you could make a list specifically
> When I read new unschoolers questions, I can't help but hear the
> anguish behind their words. I want to reach out to them, to hold
> them while they cry, to listen to their hearts speak, to comfort
> their fears and release their shame.
>
for the purpose of emotional support and for letting people tell their school
stories and get it all out.
At the Live and Learn conference recently a dad talked to me for a while
about Twelve Step program issues. He had been to a conference where drug-rehab
counsellors were, and saw the version of the Certificate of Empowerment that
the author of the Procovery book has used (it's been on her website for many
years, and that's cool--she made good use of it). He was talking to some of his
fellow counsellors about whether I might have come from a recovery
background, from clues in things he knew of my writing.
I did go to Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings for four years, from when I
was childless up to when Marty was one or so. In there I also went to some
AA meetings with my mom, when she didn't want to go alone, or when she got a
coin/token, or it was too snowy to drive home and come back to get her. So I
saw a few of the really hardcore meetings that AA can be.
One thing that bears a similarity between a type of advice there and here is
that the harmful things need to be ceased. If someone comes here and says
"When we finish this curriculum we have, we're going to think about maybe
easing into unschooling," she's not ready for this list yet. If she wants to let
that curriculum go and start unschooling, then we can help her. Otherwise,
it would be like someone going to an AA meeting and saying "When my liquor
cabinet is empty, and after the Christmas and New Year's parties, I'm going to
quit drinking, so I would like to come to meetings now and share every week even
though I'm actively finishing off my Scotch and tequila.
In AA, people usually have sponsors, which is a one-on-one relationship.
Sometimes the kind of sponsors even new unschoolers need might be those
kinds--other moms at La Leche League, or maybe someone at a group for codependency
or something like Al-Anon, where people are recovering from substance abuse of
the parents or other relatives.
Neither this list nor unschooling itself can or should be everything to
anybody. Learning from the real world works the same way for adults as for
children. Use resources that are out there! If dumping and reviewing all that
happened during childhood is what's needed, find a counsellor who can help you
look at it in those terms--if your current reactions and self image are
still school-based, you should try to clean that internal mess up! It will make
a difference.
(From Amy's long and wonderful post:)
-=-I don't know where to tell new unschoolers to go for this kind of
emotional support. Maybe you will be lucky and have a best friend,
sibling or parent, who fully understands your struggle and will
support you along the way. Maybe you will find a therapist who
understands unschooling and who will midwife you through your
emotional process to your new life. I have seen advertisements for
unschooling-friendly therapists in *Life Learning* magazine, and
perhaps they could be a wonderful resource for a phone connection. -=-
That's might be a good idea too, for someone with no local contacts.
Maybe finding a partner and reading through some of what's already written,
whether some of Joyce's very logical answers or my more emotionally-based
essays, would be helpful too.
-=-I often see people try to overcome emotional struggle using
intellectual rigor. Sometimes that works. -=-
I think some people want all personal exploration without borrowing from
already-been-there experiences, and that can be slow and frustrating.
I think some people want all borrowings with no personal exploration, and
that won't work. That's like reading about the bike riding without getting the
bike, or reading fifty cookbooks but never turning on the stove, or collecting
sewing patterns but not ever buying any cloth. You don't sew or cook from
reading. You don't unschool or come to trust natural learning from reading.
Unschooling starts to make sense when people are unschooling. It takes some
reading and some doing, more reading, more doing...
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@...
That's like reading about the bike riding without getting the
bike, or reading fifty cookbooks but never turning on the stove, or collecting
sewing patterns but not ever buying any cloth. You don't sew or cook from
reading. You don't unschool or come to trust natural learning from reading.
-=-=-=-
When I was 12, we were discussing reading and doing in sixth grade. I smartly piped up, "MY mama says that, if you can read, you can do *any*thing!"
My teacher, Mrs. Nuckols, set me straight (and made me question my mother a bit more in the future) with, "Well, I can read just fine, but I can't SEW!" <bwg>
That feeling of "duh!" has stayed with me all this time! <G>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: SandraDodd@...
That's like reading about the bike riding without getting the
bike, or reading fifty cookbooks but never turning on the stove, or collecting
sewing patterns but not ever buying any cloth. You don't sew or cook from
reading. You don't unschool or come to trust natural learning from reading.
-=-=-=-
When I was 12, we were discussing reading and doing in sixth grade. I smartly piped up, "MY mama says that, if you can read, you can do *any*thing!"
My teacher, Mrs. Nuckols, set me straight (and made me question my mother a bit more in the future) with, "Well, I can read just fine, but I can't SEW!" <bwg>
That feeling of "duh!" has stayed with me all this time! <G>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy Childs
Sandra your post got me to thinking of how we could borrow the 12-
steps for our own purposes:
Recovering from schoolishness?
12-step program for recovering cirriculum-addicts?
"Hello, my name is Amy, and I used to think that human beings can't
be trusted to learn" ?
("Hi Amy!")
I'm only partly joking.
Yes, I think this addresses the human need for personal connetion
(especially when traveling into new sometimes-scary ground) that I
was talking about.
I will keep thinking about how we could establish something like this
for unschoolers. I think it's a great idea.
~Amy Childs
steps for our own purposes:
Recovering from schoolishness?
12-step program for recovering cirriculum-addicts?
"Hello, my name is Amy, and I used to think that human beings can't
be trusted to learn" ?
("Hi Amy!")
I'm only partly joking.
> In AA, people usually have sponsors, which is a one-on-onerelationship.
Yes, I think this addresses the human need for personal connetion
(especially when traveling into new sometimes-scary ground) that I
was talking about.
I will keep thinking about how we could establish something like this
for unschoolers. I think it's a great idea.
~Amy Childs
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/1/05 3:25:34 PM, amyc@... writes:
That's what all that is--MANY people's take on it, with very practical things
to do and try.
When people call me on the phone about homeschooling, often they first want
to tell me in detail how horrible a kid was treated in school. I try to cut
them off and start at the "and now that he's home..." place. Partly I just
don't want the grief. Mostly, they need to turn their backs on that and look
at the now, not the then.
People could (and some do) obsess about mistreatment from the past for weeks,
months, YEARS, and their whole life is lived in the shadow of that
frustration they didn't know how to deal with way back when. YES some people suck.
And a mom who can't take a deep breath and live in the moment for at least one
moment is one such sucky person. And if that one present moment and that one
deep breath feel good, she will claim another one, and another, until the
past is far away and not a knot in her stomach making her want to burst into
tears.
Yes, some review of the past might be necessary, but TOO much review comes
straight out of today's sunshine and today's calm and today's potential.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Recovering from schoolishness?-=-http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
That's what all that is--MANY people's take on it, with very practical things
to do and try.
When people call me on the phone about homeschooling, often they first want
to tell me in detail how horrible a kid was treated in school. I try to cut
them off and start at the "and now that he's home..." place. Partly I just
don't want the grief. Mostly, they need to turn their backs on that and look
at the now, not the then.
People could (and some do) obsess about mistreatment from the past for weeks,
months, YEARS, and their whole life is lived in the shadow of that
frustration they didn't know how to deal with way back when. YES some people suck.
And a mom who can't take a deep breath and live in the moment for at least one
moment is one such sucky person. And if that one present moment and that one
deep breath feel good, she will claim another one, and another, until the
past is far away and not a knot in her stomach making her want to burst into
tears.
Yes, some review of the past might be necessary, but TOO much review comes
straight out of today's sunshine and today's calm and today's potential.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karri Lewis
Sometimes it takes a MASSIVE amount review before a person can begin living in the present, sometimes the past hurts are so painful that it's impossible to be pleasant, happy and content with life in the present. I think it really depends on the person and being that we unschoolers appreciate true individualism ;-), some may need more than others.
I just had to interject that. O.k. now back to lurking <grin>
-Karri
SandraDodd@... wrote:
<<<<Yes, some review of the past might be necessary, but TOO much review comes
straight out of today's sunshine and today's calm and today's potential.
Sandra>>>>>
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just had to interject that. O.k. now back to lurking <grin>
-Karri
SandraDodd@... wrote:
<<<<Yes, some review of the past might be necessary, but TOO much review comes
straight out of today's sunshine and today's calm and today's potential.
Sandra>>>>>
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
unschooling support--deschooling support, really.
I didn't get very far with the idea for two reasons. One was that I
got pregnant and could see that I wasn't going to have the time to
look after a group any time soon.
The other is that my thoughts seemed to get very specific about
exactly what I would like the list to be. Could be a very small
list, lol. Anyway, in case it sparks interest in someone else, this
is what I was thinking.
It would be for people who understand the concept of radical
unschooling and want to get there, but have daily ups and downs,
sticking points, varying degrees of cooperation from spouses/SO's,
etc. I wouldn't want it to get into the "wherever you are is great,
that works for my family" grey area. That doesn't help me keep
moving toward unschooling/letting go of controls.
There are days when the discussions here and on other groups really
helps me understand more and move forward. Other days, I know what's
right and how I got it wrong and just want to admit my mistakes and
find the strength to try again.
I hadn't really thought about telling our own childhood stories of
schooling and controlling parents, but that does make sense.
--aj
>specifically
> >
> > When I read new unschoolers questions, I can't help but hear the
> > anguish behind their words. I want to reach out to them, to hold
> > them while they cry, to listen to their hearts speak, to comfort
> > their fears and release their shame.
> >
>
> It still would be "just a list," but maybe you could make a list
> for the purpose of emotional support and for letting people telltheir school
> stories and get it all out.I thought for a while last year about starting a Yahoo group for
unschooling support--deschooling support, really.
I didn't get very far with the idea for two reasons. One was that I
got pregnant and could see that I wasn't going to have the time to
look after a group any time soon.
The other is that my thoughts seemed to get very specific about
exactly what I would like the list to be. Could be a very small
list, lol. Anyway, in case it sparks interest in someone else, this
is what I was thinking.
It would be for people who understand the concept of radical
unschooling and want to get there, but have daily ups and downs,
sticking points, varying degrees of cooperation from spouses/SO's,
etc. I wouldn't want it to get into the "wherever you are is great,
that works for my family" grey area. That doesn't help me keep
moving toward unschooling/letting go of controls.
There are days when the discussions here and on other groups really
helps me understand more and move forward. Other days, I know what's
right and how I got it wrong and just want to admit my mistakes and
find the strength to try again.
I hadn't really thought about telling our own childhood stories of
schooling and controlling parents, but that does make sense.
--aj
Wendy S.
For what it's worth, I really like that idea. I get some of that
from other groups but having one specifically for that would be cool.
Wendy S. in GA
http://www.trustbirth.com
"Motherhood: 24/7 on the frontlines of humanity. Are you man enough
to try it?" Maria Shriver
from other groups but having one specifically for that would be cool.
Wendy S. in GA
http://www.trustbirth.com
"Motherhood: 24/7 on the frontlines of humanity. Are you man enough
to try it?" Maria Shriver
On Nov 1, 2005, at 11:30 PM, mamaaj2000 wrote:
> It would be for people who understand the concept of radical
> unschooling and want to get there, but have daily ups and downs,
> sticking points, varying degrees of cooperation from spouses/SO's,
> etc. I wouldn't want it to get into the "wherever you are is great,
> that works for my family" grey area. That doesn't help me keep
> moving toward unschooling/letting go of controls.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/1/05 5:22:16 PM, karri_a_lewis@... writes:
idea. If the parent is so needy herself that she will expect the children to
make her life bearable, they might be better off in school until she can get it
together enough to be attentive and fun and able to create a place for them
to be in the moment.
Homeschooling isn't for everyone. Unschooling is for fewer still.
If this were a yachting list and someone came who didn't believe wind was a
viable powersource, and her husband didn't want a yacht, and she lived in
Montana, and she couldn't swim, and they couldn't afford a yacht, how much response
would be a waste of time?
When someone comes to a list like this and thinks some things have to be
taught, and that parenting isn't an issue, and her husband doesn't understand it a
bit, and she needs to work full time, I don't feel obligated to try to get
her life in order. Many of the first steps need to be taken elsewhere.
Being emotionally prepared to own a yacht isn't even nearly enough. People
need to start with a little sailboat and know what they're doing, and believe
sails can work, and discover whether they're the kind of person who can
operate sails and take care of the equipment and withstand being on a boat for days
at a time.
Is it "not fair" that some people have yachts and others don't? Is it "not
fair" that the Unsers have race cars when some others in Albuquerque don't
have a car at all? When we're touching on emotional issues, sometimes there
comes a wave of "that's not fair," and that's not fair to the list as a whole.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Sometimes it takes a MASSIVE amount review before a person can beginIf that parental damage is very "massive," unschooling might not be a good
> living in the present, sometimes the past hurts are so painful that it's
> impossible to be pleasant, happy and content with life in the present. I think it
> really depends on the person and being that we unschoolers appreciate true
> individualism ;-), some may need more than others.-=-
>
idea. If the parent is so needy herself that she will expect the children to
make her life bearable, they might be better off in school until she can get it
together enough to be attentive and fun and able to create a place for them
to be in the moment.
Homeschooling isn't for everyone. Unschooling is for fewer still.
If this were a yachting list and someone came who didn't believe wind was a
viable powersource, and her husband didn't want a yacht, and she lived in
Montana, and she couldn't swim, and they couldn't afford a yacht, how much response
would be a waste of time?
When someone comes to a list like this and thinks some things have to be
taught, and that parenting isn't an issue, and her husband doesn't understand it a
bit, and she needs to work full time, I don't feel obligated to try to get
her life in order. Many of the first steps need to be taken elsewhere.
Being emotionally prepared to own a yacht isn't even nearly enough. People
need to start with a little sailboat and know what they're doing, and believe
sails can work, and discover whether they're the kind of person who can
operate sails and take care of the equipment and withstand being on a boat for days
at a time.
Is it "not fair" that some people have yachts and others don't? Is it "not
fair" that the Unsers have race cars when some others in Albuquerque don't
have a car at all? When we're touching on emotional issues, sometimes there
comes a wave of "that's not fair," and that's not fair to the list as a whole.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< It would be for people who understand the concept of radical
unschooling and want to get there, but have daily ups and downs,
sticking points, varying degrees of cooperation from spouses/SO's,
etc. I wouldn't want it to get into the "wherever you are is great,
that works for my family" grey area. That doesn't help me keep
moving toward unschooling/letting go of controls. >>>>
I always thought that Basics filled this function to a great degree. However
there is a Board at Unschooling.info that is called something like "Support
for the Child in Us" that would probably be an ideal place for this
emotional speaking.
<<<<< I hadn't really thought about telling our own childhood stories of
schooling and controlling parents, but that does make sense.>>>>
People really want to tell their birth stories too a lot of the time. I
found writing about my mother/childhood was very helpful after she died. I
have 13 pages on it!
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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unschooling and want to get there, but have daily ups and downs,
sticking points, varying degrees of cooperation from spouses/SO's,
etc. I wouldn't want it to get into the "wherever you are is great,
that works for my family" grey area. That doesn't help me keep
moving toward unschooling/letting go of controls. >>>>
I always thought that Basics filled this function to a great degree. However
there is a Board at Unschooling.info that is called something like "Support
for the Child in Us" that would probably be an ideal place for this
emotional speaking.
<<<<< I hadn't really thought about telling our own childhood stories of
schooling and controlling parents, but that does make sense.>>>>
People really want to tell their birth stories too a lot of the time. I
found writing about my mother/childhood was very helpful after she died. I
have 13 pages on it!
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.7/155 - Release Date: 11/1/2005
Karri Lewis
SandraDodd@... wrote:
<<<<If that parental damage is very "massive," unschooling might not be a good
idea. If the parent is so needy herself that she will expect the children to
make her life bearable, they might be better off in school until she can get it
together enough to be attentive and fun and able to create a place for them
to be in the moment.>>>>
Hmm, I would say that would probably depend on the severity of the parent's ability to control their acting-out on the child. If there is physical or emotional abuse, I would say school IS a better place for the child. If the parent is majorly going through emotional turmoil and just has trouble being in the present with the child and has sad or self-loathing feelings that are NOT being taken out on the child, I would say school is way more damaging to the child.
<<<<Homeschooling isn't for everyone. Unschooling is for fewer still.>>>>
Right, few can imagine homeschooling and spending all of that time with their children (God forbid!) and never getting any break from them. Unschooling <gasp> is even more of a leap. They may actually have to trust their children and relinquish parental controls and expectations.
<<<<If this were a yachting list and someone came who didn't believe wind was a
viable powersource, and her husband didn't want a yacht, and she lived in
Montana, and she couldn't swim, and they couldn't afford a yacht, how much response
would be a waste of time?>>>>
Oh yeah, I know what you mean. They really have to be at least sincere about it.
<<<<<When someone comes to a list like this and thinks some things have to be
taught, and that parenting isn't an issue, and her husband doesn't understand it a
bit, and she needs to work full time, I don't feel obligated to try to get
her life in order.>>>>
Right, this probably is not the list for trying to find which way to go (i.e. school, homeschool or unschool). Although, if a person is sincere about unschooling (and actually "gets it") and truly is just having personal issues coming up, I would'nt say that emotional support should be overlooked or out of the question. I know what you are saying about reviewing too much is standing in the way of the present or the relationship/good feelings for the child. The whole goal of unschooling is a wonderful relationship with our children in the present. I agree that this advanced unschooling list should make and keep that as a priority. I do think, though that sometimes parenting an unschooled child can bring up past childhood wounds for the parent. Even though, I've found that unschooling is very healing for my own childhood wounds. It is wonderful to see the happiness in my children's faces and be present for the love that they eminate. When I do think back to my own childhood is
still does make me sad. I'm sure that depending on the severity of an abusive childhood it's something that never totally goes away. Thus, someone who suffered even worse may have a hard time being in the present if they have unresolved personal issues, despite making a clear commitment to unschooling and unconditional love towards their children. I remind myself that I am changing my families' legacy and that my children will have the freedom to grow into whomever they want with full support and love from both of their parents. That in itself is very freeing and helps me be focused in the present. I think that getting to that place in the beginning is sometime hard for a "needy" parent, but I don't think it's impossible or necessarily warrants a child having to be put into school. I know that you did say "might be better off", so you did leave that open for discression.
<<<<<Many of the first steps need to be taken elsewhere.>>>>
O.k. but what about the unschooling parent that has been doing it for several years and has emotional baggage beginning to come up? It may or may not be triggered by certain life's events or circumstances. Maybe they've realized that the reason that they are having certain problems in certain areas of unschooling is because emotional baggage hasn't been fully dealt with. What then? I just wouldn't want them to put the kid in school at this point, unless the child is asking to be. Maybe the parent can be honest and tell the child that mom or dad is having a hard time. I think honesty is very beneficial at these times. Children that are shown compassion and understanding, generally can show that in return to a loving parent. Also, what a great thing for a kid to know that even mom or dad have different emotions coming up every now and then. And maybe it can be discussed openly and honestly.
<<<<Being emotionally prepared to own a yacht isn't even nearly enough. People
need to start with a little sailboat and know what they're doing, and believe
sails can work, and discover whether they're the kind of person who can
operate sails and take care of the equipment and withstand being on a boat for days
at a time.>>>>
Interesting analogy. I agree parents need to take steps to see if this is the way to go for their families. The ones that do decide that this is the way to go for may sometimes need to sort things out, in regards to their feelings of the life they have chosen for themselves. Things come up. Life happens.
<<<<Is it "not fair" that some people have yachts and others don't? Is it "not
fair" that the Unsers have race cars when some others in Albuquerque don't
have a car at all? When we're touching on emotional issues, sometimes there
comes a wave of "that's not fair," and that's not fair to the list as a whole.>>>>
Hmmm, well right, life IS not fair. Your commentary is very well thought out and I know that the list is focused on helping unschoolers live better lives. Part of that may or may not include emotional support for veteran unschooling parents and maybe even on occasion a new, but comitted radical unschooling parent. I see that you want to keep the exploratory "looky-lou's" away. That is a waste of your time. I understand not wanting to "clutter-up" the list. You have set up a great arena for other unschoolers to lead happier, care free lives. Living is the present is key. Sometimes people faulter emotionally. The goal should always be happiness and love for our children. I don't think that anyone is questioning that. Maybe emotional struggles can be touched upon, but with a gentle reminder of the avoidance of projecting it on to our children? That (projecting) is definitely something to be avoided. I understand that you don't want to let any parental baggage to take away
from the joy and love of our children and that you are in this for the children. If the parent is able to overcome this (emotional baggage), it just brings more advantages to the child. The children probably benefit from a parent receiving emotional support from fellow unschoolers. I know in the interum it may be a bit uncomfortable for the child, but I think if the parent is open and honest and loving, it does not harm and may even be a tool of compassion for another human being.
O.k. you got me to come out of lurkdom again, lol.
-Karri
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<<If that parental damage is very "massive," unschooling might not be a good
idea. If the parent is so needy herself that she will expect the children to
make her life bearable, they might be better off in school until she can get it
together enough to be attentive and fun and able to create a place for them
to be in the moment.>>>>
Hmm, I would say that would probably depend on the severity of the parent's ability to control their acting-out on the child. If there is physical or emotional abuse, I would say school IS a better place for the child. If the parent is majorly going through emotional turmoil and just has trouble being in the present with the child and has sad or self-loathing feelings that are NOT being taken out on the child, I would say school is way more damaging to the child.
<<<<Homeschooling isn't for everyone. Unschooling is for fewer still.>>>>
Right, few can imagine homeschooling and spending all of that time with their children (God forbid!) and never getting any break from them. Unschooling <gasp> is even more of a leap. They may actually have to trust their children and relinquish parental controls and expectations.
<<<<If this were a yachting list and someone came who didn't believe wind was a
viable powersource, and her husband didn't want a yacht, and she lived in
Montana, and she couldn't swim, and they couldn't afford a yacht, how much response
would be a waste of time?>>>>
Oh yeah, I know what you mean. They really have to be at least sincere about it.
<<<<<When someone comes to a list like this and thinks some things have to be
taught, and that parenting isn't an issue, and her husband doesn't understand it a
bit, and she needs to work full time, I don't feel obligated to try to get
her life in order.>>>>
Right, this probably is not the list for trying to find which way to go (i.e. school, homeschool or unschool). Although, if a person is sincere about unschooling (and actually "gets it") and truly is just having personal issues coming up, I would'nt say that emotional support should be overlooked or out of the question. I know what you are saying about reviewing too much is standing in the way of the present or the relationship/good feelings for the child. The whole goal of unschooling is a wonderful relationship with our children in the present. I agree that this advanced unschooling list should make and keep that as a priority. I do think, though that sometimes parenting an unschooled child can bring up past childhood wounds for the parent. Even though, I've found that unschooling is very healing for my own childhood wounds. It is wonderful to see the happiness in my children's faces and be present for the love that they eminate. When I do think back to my own childhood is
still does make me sad. I'm sure that depending on the severity of an abusive childhood it's something that never totally goes away. Thus, someone who suffered even worse may have a hard time being in the present if they have unresolved personal issues, despite making a clear commitment to unschooling and unconditional love towards their children. I remind myself that I am changing my families' legacy and that my children will have the freedom to grow into whomever they want with full support and love from both of their parents. That in itself is very freeing and helps me be focused in the present. I think that getting to that place in the beginning is sometime hard for a "needy" parent, but I don't think it's impossible or necessarily warrants a child having to be put into school. I know that you did say "might be better off", so you did leave that open for discression.
<<<<<Many of the first steps need to be taken elsewhere.>>>>
O.k. but what about the unschooling parent that has been doing it for several years and has emotional baggage beginning to come up? It may or may not be triggered by certain life's events or circumstances. Maybe they've realized that the reason that they are having certain problems in certain areas of unschooling is because emotional baggage hasn't been fully dealt with. What then? I just wouldn't want them to put the kid in school at this point, unless the child is asking to be. Maybe the parent can be honest and tell the child that mom or dad is having a hard time. I think honesty is very beneficial at these times. Children that are shown compassion and understanding, generally can show that in return to a loving parent. Also, what a great thing for a kid to know that even mom or dad have different emotions coming up every now and then. And maybe it can be discussed openly and honestly.
<<<<Being emotionally prepared to own a yacht isn't even nearly enough. People
need to start with a little sailboat and know what they're doing, and believe
sails can work, and discover whether they're the kind of person who can
operate sails and take care of the equipment and withstand being on a boat for days
at a time.>>>>
Interesting analogy. I agree parents need to take steps to see if this is the way to go for their families. The ones that do decide that this is the way to go for may sometimes need to sort things out, in regards to their feelings of the life they have chosen for themselves. Things come up. Life happens.
<<<<Is it "not fair" that some people have yachts and others don't? Is it "not
fair" that the Unsers have race cars when some others in Albuquerque don't
have a car at all? When we're touching on emotional issues, sometimes there
comes a wave of "that's not fair," and that's not fair to the list as a whole.>>>>
Hmmm, well right, life IS not fair. Your commentary is very well thought out and I know that the list is focused on helping unschoolers live better lives. Part of that may or may not include emotional support for veteran unschooling parents and maybe even on occasion a new, but comitted radical unschooling parent. I see that you want to keep the exploratory "looky-lou's" away. That is a waste of your time. I understand not wanting to "clutter-up" the list. You have set up a great arena for other unschoolers to lead happier, care free lives. Living is the present is key. Sometimes people faulter emotionally. The goal should always be happiness and love for our children. I don't think that anyone is questioning that. Maybe emotional struggles can be touched upon, but with a gentle reminder of the avoidance of projecting it on to our children? That (projecting) is definitely something to be avoided. I understand that you don't want to let any parental baggage to take away
from the joy and love of our children and that you are in this for the children. If the parent is able to overcome this (emotional baggage), it just brings more advantages to the child. The children probably benefit from a parent receiving emotional support from fellow unschoolers. I know in the interum it may be a bit uncomfortable for the child, but I think if the parent is open and honest and loving, it does not harm and may even be a tool of compassion for another human being.
O.k. you got me to come out of lurkdom again, lol.
-Karri
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karri Lewis
Wow, I will have to check that out. It sounds interesting.
-Karri
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
++++<<<<< I hadn't really thought about telling our own childhood stories of
schooling and controlling parents, but that does make sense.>>>>
People really want to tell their birth stories too a lot of the time. I
found writing about my mother/childhood was very helpful after she died. I
have 13 pages on it!
Robyn L. Coburn +++++
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-Karri
Robyn Coburn <dezigna@...> wrote:
++++<<<<< I hadn't really thought about telling our own childhood stories of
schooling and controlling parents, but that does make sense.>>>>
People really want to tell their birth stories too a lot of the time. I
found writing about my mother/childhood was very helpful after she died. I
have 13 pages on it!
Robyn L. Coburn +++++
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy Childs
>>>>If this were a yachting list and someone came who didn't believewind was a viable powersource, and her husband didn't want a yacht,
and she lived in Montana, and she couldn't swim, and they couldn't
afford a yacht, how much response would be a waste of time?<<<<
This is a great analogy, and it leads me to admit what I have been
feeling (as I ponder the idea of starting a different list for the
emotional process), which is, I just don't feel like giving away so
much of my time for free.
I feel embarrassed about saying that here in front of a few thousand
people, but I think it's important to say for the purposes of this
discussion, for several reasons.
First, to acknowledge (again but I think it bears repeating) how
much time the leaders on this list give away. I am grateful for
their patience, their willingness to answer similar questions over
and over, to share their own family's stories and hard-earned
experience, and for reading and typing thousands and thousands of
words each month all for free.
This leads to the issue of "it's not fair." It's TOTALLY not fair
that some people have so much pain to sort through if they want to
successfully and joyfully attain unschooling. When I read posts
where it's obvious that there is a lot of struggle and pain, I feel
so sad for them, knowing that they have old stuff about authority and
kids, and that they probably weren't raised with compassion. I hate
that the world is so unfair, and I really really hate that 99.9% of
the children on this planet bear the brunt of the injustice. It
makes me sick, and I actually cry about it often.
However - this does not mean Sandra (or I, or anyone) has to give
anything away for free.
I do think that unschooling can be an amazing path to healing. I
think that anyone who wants to unschool (or own a yacht) has the
right and the full potential to do so. BUT I think that many (if not
most) people are going to need real-life, day to day, emotional
support, in order to be able do it.
I would say that Sandra's analogy would be even more apt if all
people were born near the water, and the yacht-resisting beliefs
(like denying wind and the fear to swim) were overwhelmingly common,
due to a society that pervasively and systematically discouraged and
shamed yachting from the minute a baby was born.
If we lived in such a world, everything to do with yachting would be
fraught with emotion and confusion. Some people would sort it out by
sheer brain-power, some people would join with others and sort it out
together, most people would probably never sort it out at all.
We do live in a world where human being's trustworthiness and
curiosity are systematically discouraged and shamed, and it will take
a million lifetimes to sort it all out. I think there is hardly
anything worth sorting out more, and my life is dedicated to this
very human process.
But I need to eat and buy toilet paper and pay for health insurance
too. And so (I imagine) does Sandra and the other leaders on this
list.
Being someone who CAN help can be a very excruciating thing, when you
live among thousands who need you. Making decisions on whom to help,
how to help them, when to help them, takes a huge toll on the helpers
and in fact eventually compromises their ability to help at all.
BUT this does not deny the fact that this kind of help is DESPERATELY
NEEDED. So again I urge the new unschoolers who are struggling
please! find yourself someone who values unschooling, to hold your
hand, hear your stories, and listen to your tears. You need emotional
support, your children need you to get emotional support, your
husband needs you to get emotional support, the planet needs you to
get emotional support.
(I know that last part sounds like a pompous proposition, but I
happen to think it's true so I kept it in.)
~Amy Childs
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 3, 2005, at 5:10 AM, Amy Childs wrote:
As someone who has given pretty freely of her time - like Sandra,
I've made this MY life-work for the past 10 years or so - I
appreciate the recognition of the time involved and especially
appreciate the recognition that people can't GIVE everything that
everybody needs EVEN when we might be capable of it. That's a TOUGH one.
My email address and phone number are listed on my state organization
website as a homeschooling contact person. I get one to three phone
calls per day. Nearly ALL of them are from a desperate emotionally
upset very very needy parent. Nearly all of them need to tell me
about their problems - nearly all of them have had truly horrible,
terrible, life-sucking, traumatic school experiences. Most are
hanging onto their belief in their own kids by a very slim thread.
Many times they cry, on the phone, just hearing me speaking of their
child as a valuable, viable person - I cannot count how many of these
parents tell me, "You're the first person I've spoken to about my son
in YEARS who hasn't thought of him as "broken" and pretty much not
fixable."
So - I hope people will stop and think about how much time these
phone calls take. The person often really truly MUST tell their full
and complete story, get it ALL out, before they can take a breath and
listen and believe that I understand just how frustrated they are and
how they've tried everything else and how contacting homeschoolers is
a last resort. I know, from experience, that if I don't listen and
make it clear I understand, that they won't be ready to hear what I
have to say. NONE of them have unschooling in mind when they call -
they're just finally at the point of wanting to escape from the
school situation. But, many times their child has been seriously hurt
by school and it is obvious to ME that they desperately need a
lengthy period of deschooling and then unschooling. And these parents
are often SO completely and totally angry with the whole school
approach that the very idea of unschooling hits them like a ton of
bricks and they say things like, "Oh that would be heavenly, I can't
believe I'm hearing you right, this is what I DREAMED of....."
You can imagine how gratifying this is.
But you can also imagine how much time it takes and that there are
times my own children are standing there, watching me talk on the
phone, waiting and waiting and waiting to talk to me or needing me to
do something for them.
I don't regret doing this at all. And my kids understand that this is
my way of helping the world.
But there has to be balance and we have to set limits. Sometimes
there are people I don't call back because I feel like I've said what
I could say to them and that the ball needs to be in their court. I
KNOW they need far more emotional support than I can provide and I
HOPE they find it, but it can't all come from me, clearly. I always
try to help people find a local group and hope they'll find a friend
or two there who can give them the emotional support they need.
I think there is a great need for a national network of therapists
who support unschooling - I know of one, only, and I do refer people
to her very frequently - she does phone, email, and in--person
consultations. If someone is looking for a "project," putting
together a list of unschooling-friendly therapists would certainly be
a useful one.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> BUT this does not deny the fact that this kind of help is DESPERATELYThanks Amy, for articulating all of this SO well.
> NEEDED. So again I urge the new unschoolers who are struggling �
> please! � find yourself someone who values unschooling, to hold your
> hand, hear your stories, and listen to your tears. You need emotional
> support, your children need you to get emotional support, your
> husband needs you to get emotional support, the planet needs you to
> get emotional support.
As someone who has given pretty freely of her time - like Sandra,
I've made this MY life-work for the past 10 years or so - I
appreciate the recognition of the time involved and especially
appreciate the recognition that people can't GIVE everything that
everybody needs EVEN when we might be capable of it. That's a TOUGH one.
My email address and phone number are listed on my state organization
website as a homeschooling contact person. I get one to three phone
calls per day. Nearly ALL of them are from a desperate emotionally
upset very very needy parent. Nearly all of them need to tell me
about their problems - nearly all of them have had truly horrible,
terrible, life-sucking, traumatic school experiences. Most are
hanging onto their belief in their own kids by a very slim thread.
Many times they cry, on the phone, just hearing me speaking of their
child as a valuable, viable person - I cannot count how many of these
parents tell me, "You're the first person I've spoken to about my son
in YEARS who hasn't thought of him as "broken" and pretty much not
fixable."
So - I hope people will stop and think about how much time these
phone calls take. The person often really truly MUST tell their full
and complete story, get it ALL out, before they can take a breath and
listen and believe that I understand just how frustrated they are and
how they've tried everything else and how contacting homeschoolers is
a last resort. I know, from experience, that if I don't listen and
make it clear I understand, that they won't be ready to hear what I
have to say. NONE of them have unschooling in mind when they call -
they're just finally at the point of wanting to escape from the
school situation. But, many times their child has been seriously hurt
by school and it is obvious to ME that they desperately need a
lengthy period of deschooling and then unschooling. And these parents
are often SO completely and totally angry with the whole school
approach that the very idea of unschooling hits them like a ton of
bricks and they say things like, "Oh that would be heavenly, I can't
believe I'm hearing you right, this is what I DREAMED of....."
You can imagine how gratifying this is.
But you can also imagine how much time it takes and that there are
times my own children are standing there, watching me talk on the
phone, waiting and waiting and waiting to talk to me or needing me to
do something for them.
I don't regret doing this at all. And my kids understand that this is
my way of helping the world.
But there has to be balance and we have to set limits. Sometimes
there are people I don't call back because I feel like I've said what
I could say to them and that the ball needs to be in their court. I
KNOW they need far more emotional support than I can provide and I
HOPE they find it, but it can't all come from me, clearly. I always
try to help people find a local group and hope they'll find a friend
or two there who can give them the emotional support they need.
I think there is a great need for a national network of therapists
who support unschooling - I know of one, only, and I do refer people
to her very frequently - she does phone, email, and in--person
consultations. If someone is looking for a "project," putting
together a list of unschooling-friendly therapists would certainly be
a useful one.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< If the parent is majorly going through emotional turmoil and just has
trouble being in the present with the child and has sad or self-loathing
feelings that are NOT being taken out on the child, I would say school is
way more damaging to the child. >>>>
There are several issues not being considered in this blanket type
statement. One is that children have different emotional intelligences, and
what one child might shrug off and be able to view with detachment, might be
absorbed and internalized, in a damaging way, by another - both the parent's
emotional state and negative school stuff.
The other issue is that there is nothing here about the concept of offering
the choice to the child, with the freedom to change their mind at any time.
The core of Unschooling *is* "being present" with your children. Jayn
mirrors my emotional state back to me, no matter how I try not to impose my
feelings or bad mood on her. I do that by attempting to be really aware of
my state of mind, but I'm not always fabulous at it. Her mirroring usually
helps me realize just how much negative projection I am engaging in - and
I'm not remotely near depressed. Just not "taking it out" on them, doesn't
mean that the kids aren't feeling an effect.
However, nor need "home with miserable mom" vs "being miserable in school"
be the only options. There might be a free school nearby, there might be
ways to attend college classes part of the time, there might be the
possibility of visiting relatives for a brief time, there might be the
ability to bring someone else into the home situation to help out.
<<<< Although, if a person is sincere about unschooling (and actually "gets
it") and truly is just having personal issues coming up, I would'nt say that
emotional support should be overlooked or out of the question. >>>>
My experience here and on the sister lists has been that I have received a
lot of emotional support at different times, when I have posted a problem -
or as seems to happen in a magical way, someone else posts with a
commensurate issue just as I was about to! The support happens as a side
effect of discussing problems of perception.
<<<< I do think, though that sometimes parenting an unschooled child can
bring up past childhood wounds for the parent. Even though, I've found
that unschooling is very healing for my own childhood wounds. >>>>
We do a *lot* of this kind of conversation on AlwaysUnschooled. We do quite
a lot of it on Basics. Ren Allen has actually asked for specific stories of
personal/emotional healing instigated by Unschooling and mindful parenting,
and revisits the topic periodically on Basics.
There really is a place for people having these emotional struggles as a
result of discovering Unschooling to share and receive empathy - especially
if they are looking for reasons to keep Unschooling, rather than a kind of
permission to drop it because it is too painful. Sometimes people respond to
pain by getting angry at the others on the lists, as if we caused it by
opening their minds and hearts to Unschooling.
<<<< It is wonderful to see the happiness in my children's faces and be
present for the love that they eminate. When I do think back to my own
childhood is still does make me sad. >>>>
Me too - both of those ideas. I see my mother's family stretching back into
the ages with a pattern of abuse and severity and unkindness perpetuated. I
sometimes envision myself as the bulwark holding back a thousand screaming
monsters with the faces of my mother and my horrid grandfather and his even
more wretched mother. It stops here.
<<<<< Maybe the parent can be honest and tell the child that mom or dad is
having a hard time. I think honesty is very beneficial at these times. >>>>
I tend to think honesty is beneficial at all times.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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trouble being in the present with the child and has sad or self-loathing
feelings that are NOT being taken out on the child, I would say school is
way more damaging to the child. >>>>
There are several issues not being considered in this blanket type
statement. One is that children have different emotional intelligences, and
what one child might shrug off and be able to view with detachment, might be
absorbed and internalized, in a damaging way, by another - both the parent's
emotional state and negative school stuff.
The other issue is that there is nothing here about the concept of offering
the choice to the child, with the freedom to change their mind at any time.
The core of Unschooling *is* "being present" with your children. Jayn
mirrors my emotional state back to me, no matter how I try not to impose my
feelings or bad mood on her. I do that by attempting to be really aware of
my state of mind, but I'm not always fabulous at it. Her mirroring usually
helps me realize just how much negative projection I am engaging in - and
I'm not remotely near depressed. Just not "taking it out" on them, doesn't
mean that the kids aren't feeling an effect.
However, nor need "home with miserable mom" vs "being miserable in school"
be the only options. There might be a free school nearby, there might be
ways to attend college classes part of the time, there might be the
possibility of visiting relatives for a brief time, there might be the
ability to bring someone else into the home situation to help out.
<<<< Although, if a person is sincere about unschooling (and actually "gets
it") and truly is just having personal issues coming up, I would'nt say that
emotional support should be overlooked or out of the question. >>>>
My experience here and on the sister lists has been that I have received a
lot of emotional support at different times, when I have posted a problem -
or as seems to happen in a magical way, someone else posts with a
commensurate issue just as I was about to! The support happens as a side
effect of discussing problems of perception.
<<<< I do think, though that sometimes parenting an unschooled child can
bring up past childhood wounds for the parent. Even though, I've found
that unschooling is very healing for my own childhood wounds. >>>>
We do a *lot* of this kind of conversation on AlwaysUnschooled. We do quite
a lot of it on Basics. Ren Allen has actually asked for specific stories of
personal/emotional healing instigated by Unschooling and mindful parenting,
and revisits the topic periodically on Basics.
There really is a place for people having these emotional struggles as a
result of discovering Unschooling to share and receive empathy - especially
if they are looking for reasons to keep Unschooling, rather than a kind of
permission to drop it because it is too painful. Sometimes people respond to
pain by getting angry at the others on the lists, as if we caused it by
opening their minds and hearts to Unschooling.
<<<< It is wonderful to see the happiness in my children's faces and be
present for the love that they eminate. When I do think back to my own
childhood is still does make me sad. >>>>
Me too - both of those ideas. I see my mother's family stretching back into
the ages with a pattern of abuse and severity and unkindness perpetuated. I
sometimes envision myself as the bulwark holding back a thousand screaming
monsters with the faces of my mother and my horrid grandfather and his even
more wretched mother. It stops here.
<<<<< Maybe the parent can be honest and tell the child that mom or dad is
having a hard time. I think honesty is very beneficial at these times. >>>>
I tend to think honesty is beneficial at all times.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Betsy Hill
**
You can imagine how gratifying this is.
But you can also imagine how much time it takes and that there are
times my own children are standing there, watching me talk on the
phone, waiting and waiting and waiting to talk to me or needing me to
do something for them.
I don't regret doing this at all. And my kids understand that this is
my way of helping the world.
But there has to be balance and we have to set limits. Sometimes
there are people I don't call back because I feel like I've said what
I could say to them and that the ball needs to be in their court.**
It IS really valuable work. Thank you, Pam for doing it. (I haven't been willing to take it on.)
Maybe some day we'll have a whole cohort of unschooling grandmas (and grandpas) that can provide an ear and a shoulder without simultaneously imposing on children that need them. That would be cool.
And the idea of listing unschooling-supportive therapists is truly a worthy idea.
Betsy
You can imagine how gratifying this is.
But you can also imagine how much time it takes and that there are
times my own children are standing there, watching me talk on the
phone, waiting and waiting and waiting to talk to me or needing me to
do something for them.
I don't regret doing this at all. And my kids understand that this is
my way of helping the world.
But there has to be balance and we have to set limits. Sometimes
there are people I don't call back because I feel like I've said what
I could say to them and that the ball needs to be in their court.**
It IS really valuable work. Thank you, Pam for doing it. (I haven't been willing to take it on.)
Maybe some day we'll have a whole cohort of unschooling grandmas (and grandpas) that can provide an ear and a shoulder without simultaneously imposing on children that need them. That would be cool.
And the idea of listing unschooling-supportive therapists is truly a worthy idea.
Betsy
Karri Lewis
Amy Childs <amyc@...> wrote:
<<<<<This is a great analogy, and it leads me to admit what I have been
feeling (as I ponder the idea of starting a different list for the
emotional process), which is, I just don't feel like giving away so
much of my time for free.
<snip>
First, to acknowledge (again but I think it bears repeating) how
much time the leaders on this list give away. I am grateful for
their patience, their willingness to answer similar questions over
and over, to share their own family's stories and hard-earned
experience, and for reading and typing thousands and thousands of
words each month all for free.>>>>>
Right, I'm not trying to discount what the list owners ALREADY are doing. That in itself is a huge act of service <g>. I too appreciate what they share. It has been tremendously helpful to glean from their experiences.
<<<<<This leads to the issue of "it's not fair." It's TOTALLY not fair
that some people have so much pain to sort through if they want to
successfully and joyfully attain unschooling.>>>>>
Yeah, I'm talking about sometimes addressing this when it deems appropriate. Sometimes it may or may not be appropriate.
<<<<When I read posts where it's obvious that there is a lot of struggle and pain, I feel so sad for them, knowing that they have old stuff about authority and kids, and that they probably weren't raised with compassion. I hate
that the world is so unfair, and I really really hate that 99.9% of the children on this planet bear the brunt of the injustice. It makes me sick, and I actually cry about it often.>>>>>
Yeah, I think that it's very sad also. And Unfortunately, even if it doesn't effect us directly. It does effect our families indirectly. We are constantly being exposed to it when we go out in 'real' life. As I've heard (or read) Sandra say before, our families are a refuge. That is the gift of unschooling.
<<<<However - this does not mean Sandra (or I, or anyone) has to give
anything away for free.>>>>
Right, we all have choices. Sandra and the other list owners have chosen, very unselfishly, to help other unschooling families. That should definitly be recognized for what they give to others. I'm not trying to discount that at all and hope that it didn't come across that way. I was just talking about maybe occassionally addressing the emotional component of unschooling on occassion. (Maybe even the sometimes needed brutal honesty of telling someone that therapy might be needed to get over control issues or other stuff and that the list owners are unable to help with so much emotional baggage?) This may come off as acknowleging that this is beyond what the list owners can emotionally give because this kind of stuff can be so draining and may seem apathetic to the people at times, but being honest about this kind of stuff is admirable and sometimes needs to be told. And maybe (and probably) it is beyond what can be given in this unschooling list setting. I guess what I'm
saying is that a parent's emotional baggage should be acknowlegded and encouraged to heal by whatever means that are available. This 'review' and acknowledgement often leads to healed parents and happier children.....the very goal of this list.
<<<<<I do think that unschooling can be an amazing path to healing. I
think that anyone who wants to unschool (or own a yacht) has the
right and the full potential to do so. BUT I think that many (if not
most) people are going to need real-life, day to day, emotional
support, in order to be able do it.>>>>>
I agree.
<<<<<< Some people would sort it out by
sheer brain-power, some people would join with others and sort it out
together, most people would probably never sort it out at all.>>>>
And that's the current dilema for ru's.
<<<<<We do live in a world where human being's trustworthiness and
curiosity are systematically discouraged and shamed, and it will take
a million lifetimes to sort it all out. I think there is hardly
anything worth sorting out more, and my life is dedicated to this
very human process.>>>>>
As are all of the list owners on this board. That is a given. The emotional aspect is an intrinsic part of the whole picture and may not always be addressed enough as the "root" of some of the problems faced by unschooling parents.
<<<<But I need to eat and buy toilet paper and pay for health insurance
too. And so (I imagine) does Sandra and the other leaders on this
list.>>>>
Right, I don't think anyone wants any of the list owner's to sacrafice so much that they have nothing left over for their own families. Maybe just the integration of addressing self-exploration and healing of parental baggage. Maybe the concern is that this may seem too overt or as a personal attack?
<<<Being someone who CAN help can be a very excruciating thing, when you
live among thousands who need you. Making decisions on whom to help,
how to help them, when to help them, takes a huge toll on the helpers
and in fact eventually compromises their ability to help at all.>>>>
Right, I'm sure that is tough and I cannot imagine.
<<<<BUT this does not deny the fact that this kind of help is DESPERATELY
NEEDED.>>>>
Yeah, my point exactly!
<<<<<So again I urge the new unschoolers who are struggling
please! find yourself someone who values unschooling, to hold your
hand, hear your stories, and listen to your tears. You need emotional
support, your children need you to get emotional support, your
husband needs you to get emotional support, the planet needs you to
get emotional support. >>>>
lol, YES! Maybe the support in person is best, but a little acknowlegdment online couldn't hurt either. Kind of like maybe someone with a similiar past experience of that particular issue can share. That kind of sharing can be eye-opening for the person with the emotional baggage. I personally have heard from people who need help with this and say that there is a great need for this. Heck, and I'm no where nearly as experienced as the list owners with a ton of unschooling life experience, lol. So yes, there is a huge need for addressing parental emotional baggage, especially when I see other new unschoolers asking me a lot of questions, lol.
<<<<(I know that last part sounds like a pompous proposition, but I
happen to think it's true so I kept it in.)>>>>
Nah...
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<<<<This is a great analogy, and it leads me to admit what I have been
feeling (as I ponder the idea of starting a different list for the
emotional process), which is, I just don't feel like giving away so
much of my time for free.
<snip>
First, to acknowledge (again but I think it bears repeating) how
much time the leaders on this list give away. I am grateful for
their patience, their willingness to answer similar questions over
and over, to share their own family's stories and hard-earned
experience, and for reading and typing thousands and thousands of
words each month all for free.>>>>>
Right, I'm not trying to discount what the list owners ALREADY are doing. That in itself is a huge act of service <g>. I too appreciate what they share. It has been tremendously helpful to glean from their experiences.
<<<<<This leads to the issue of "it's not fair." It's TOTALLY not fair
that some people have so much pain to sort through if they want to
successfully and joyfully attain unschooling.>>>>>
Yeah, I'm talking about sometimes addressing this when it deems appropriate. Sometimes it may or may not be appropriate.
<<<<When I read posts where it's obvious that there is a lot of struggle and pain, I feel so sad for them, knowing that they have old stuff about authority and kids, and that they probably weren't raised with compassion. I hate
that the world is so unfair, and I really really hate that 99.9% of the children on this planet bear the brunt of the injustice. It makes me sick, and I actually cry about it often.>>>>>
Yeah, I think that it's very sad also. And Unfortunately, even if it doesn't effect us directly. It does effect our families indirectly. We are constantly being exposed to it when we go out in 'real' life. As I've heard (or read) Sandra say before, our families are a refuge. That is the gift of unschooling.
<<<<However - this does not mean Sandra (or I, or anyone) has to give
anything away for free.>>>>
Right, we all have choices. Sandra and the other list owners have chosen, very unselfishly, to help other unschooling families. That should definitly be recognized for what they give to others. I'm not trying to discount that at all and hope that it didn't come across that way. I was just talking about maybe occassionally addressing the emotional component of unschooling on occassion. (Maybe even the sometimes needed brutal honesty of telling someone that therapy might be needed to get over control issues or other stuff and that the list owners are unable to help with so much emotional baggage?) This may come off as acknowleging that this is beyond what the list owners can emotionally give because this kind of stuff can be so draining and may seem apathetic to the people at times, but being honest about this kind of stuff is admirable and sometimes needs to be told. And maybe (and probably) it is beyond what can be given in this unschooling list setting. I guess what I'm
saying is that a parent's emotional baggage should be acknowlegded and encouraged to heal by whatever means that are available. This 'review' and acknowledgement often leads to healed parents and happier children.....the very goal of this list.
<<<<<I do think that unschooling can be an amazing path to healing. I
think that anyone who wants to unschool (or own a yacht) has the
right and the full potential to do so. BUT I think that many (if not
most) people are going to need real-life, day to day, emotional
support, in order to be able do it.>>>>>
I agree.
<<<<<< Some people would sort it out by
sheer brain-power, some people would join with others and sort it out
together, most people would probably never sort it out at all.>>>>
And that's the current dilema for ru's.
<<<<<We do live in a world where human being's trustworthiness and
curiosity are systematically discouraged and shamed, and it will take
a million lifetimes to sort it all out. I think there is hardly
anything worth sorting out more, and my life is dedicated to this
very human process.>>>>>
As are all of the list owners on this board. That is a given. The emotional aspect is an intrinsic part of the whole picture and may not always be addressed enough as the "root" of some of the problems faced by unschooling parents.
<<<<But I need to eat and buy toilet paper and pay for health insurance
too. And so (I imagine) does Sandra and the other leaders on this
list.>>>>
Right, I don't think anyone wants any of the list owner's to sacrafice so much that they have nothing left over for their own families. Maybe just the integration of addressing self-exploration and healing of parental baggage. Maybe the concern is that this may seem too overt or as a personal attack?
<<<Being someone who CAN help can be a very excruciating thing, when you
live among thousands who need you. Making decisions on whom to help,
how to help them, when to help them, takes a huge toll on the helpers
and in fact eventually compromises their ability to help at all.>>>>
Right, I'm sure that is tough and I cannot imagine.
<<<<BUT this does not deny the fact that this kind of help is DESPERATELY
NEEDED.>>>>
Yeah, my point exactly!
<<<<<So again I urge the new unschoolers who are struggling
please! find yourself someone who values unschooling, to hold your
hand, hear your stories, and listen to your tears. You need emotional
support, your children need you to get emotional support, your
husband needs you to get emotional support, the planet needs you to
get emotional support. >>>>
lol, YES! Maybe the support in person is best, but a little acknowlegdment online couldn't hurt either. Kind of like maybe someone with a similiar past experience of that particular issue can share. That kind of sharing can be eye-opening for the person with the emotional baggage. I personally have heard from people who need help with this and say that there is a great need for this. Heck, and I'm no where nearly as experienced as the list owners with a ton of unschooling life experience, lol. So yes, there is a huge need for addressing parental emotional baggage, especially when I see other new unschoolers asking me a lot of questions, lol.
<<<<(I know that last part sounds like a pompous proposition, but I
happen to think it's true so I kept it in.)>>>>
Nah...
Karri, Lindsay (4/16/02) and Camden (6/8/04)
We are students of words; we are shut up in schools, and colleges, and recitation rooms, for ten or fifteen years, and come out at last with a bag of wind, a memory of words, and do not know a thing.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/3/05 2:15:36 PM, karri_a_lewis@... writes:
life's frustrations could kill the list for hundreds of others.
can handle helping others process could do that until they get tired of it
and they can leave the list's work to others.
But part of the deal here is that it doesn't HAVE to be "unschooling
friendly." If someone has deep, serious childhood scars, there are probably
already-existing help groups for that. If the parents were substance abusers or
abusive, or if the person is deep into codependent behavior, or if it's to discuss
dysfunctional families or the effects of divorce, there is already a huge
body of literature and therapy and self-help out there. Unschooling lists can't
become all of that, nor should they.
Perhaps it's an after-effect of curriculum or religion for people to expect
to have all their needs met by some one place or group or thing.
Unschooling, learning from the real world, from the whole world, from all
possible sources, should be the LAST "place or group or thing" to consider trying
to provide it all for its "members."
We're not a church that needs an outreach program for this, and a therapy
group for that, and a women's menopause Sunday school class and daycare and a
softball team and a girl scout troop and...
There are all those things in the real world. We can just focus on the
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> This may come off as acknowleging that this is beyond what the list ownersIt's not apathy. It's that just TWO people processing through their entire
> can emotionally give because this kind of stuff can be so draining and may
> seem apathetic to the people at times, but being honest about this kind of
> stuff is admirable and sometimes needs to be told. -=-
>
life's frustrations could kill the list for hundreds of others.
> -=- And maybe (and probably) it is beyond what can be given in thisIf might be possible to design a list for that purpose, though, and those who
> unschooling list setting.-=-
>
can handle helping others process could do that until they get tired of it
and they can leave the list's work to others.
But part of the deal here is that it doesn't HAVE to be "unschooling
friendly." If someone has deep, serious childhood scars, there are probably
already-existing help groups for that. If the parents were substance abusers or
abusive, or if the person is deep into codependent behavior, or if it's to discuss
dysfunctional families or the effects of divorce, there is already a huge
body of literature and therapy and self-help out there. Unschooling lists can't
become all of that, nor should they.
Perhaps it's an after-effect of curriculum or religion for people to expect
to have all their needs met by some one place or group or thing.
Unschooling, learning from the real world, from the whole world, from all
possible sources, should be the LAST "place or group or thing" to consider trying
to provide it all for its "members."
We're not a church that needs an outreach program for this, and a therapy
group for that, and a women's menopause Sunday school class and daycare and a
softball team and a girl scout troop and...
There are all those things in the real world. We can just focus on the
unschooling.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> -=-We do live in a world where human being's trustworthiness and"It" will never all be sorted out.
> curiosity are systematically discouraged and shamed, and it will take
> a million lifetimes to sort it all out. -=-
>
But it doesn't take a million lifetimes to make the next moment better.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> -=- I don't think anyone wants any of the list owner's to sacrafice so muchThere have been times when my helping others has kept me from being with my
> that they have nothing left over for their own families. Maybe just the
> integration of addressing self-exploration and healing of parental baggage.
> Maybe the concern is that this may seem too overt or as a personal attack?-=-
>
kids. I've been on the phone with some distraught mom when one of them needs
me and I've asked my kid to wait. Overall, though, they know that their
lives are already pretty sweet and some other kid's life might have gone from crap
to better, which is a pretty big jump.
I don't think there's concern OR attack. I'm not worried about this
emotional-support discussion at all. I do think that the articles on deschooling
and the recommendations about saying yes to children instead of no are
therapeutic in and of themselves. Recovery is not and should not be something thought
of as a whole body of work which must be done before the next step. It's
something ongoing. If a person is too screwed up and wounded to take care of
another person's 24-hour-a-day needs, then something should be done THERE, not
here. A child can't be put on the shelf and picked up again in a year or two
when the mom's therapy is done. They need mom NOW.
Years back, therapy was a deep analysis of all childhood memories and
experiences, along with analysis of what the parental background was. That
benefited Freudian therapists more than it benefited their patients. They were
learning a LOT that they could use as therapists, but the patients were just
wallowing in dredged up memories and not getting much in the way of practical
advice about what to do in the midst of those years of psychoanalysis.
Nowadays a much better idea is cognitive therapy--changing how we see the
world, and how we see ourselves in it, and living in a healthier and more hopeful
and productive way. "Here's what you might try between now and next week"
is not something Freudian or Jungian analysts were prone to say, unless it was
a recommendation of how to dredge up or mine more history of pain and
suffering.
-=-Being someone who CAN help can be a very excruciating thing, when you
live among thousands who need you. Making decisions on whom to help,
how to help them, when to help them, takes a huge toll on the helpers
and in fact eventually compromises their ability to help at all.-=-
I disagree.
Being someone who can help and doing so for free means getting to choose
one's method and approach. Even those in private practice (as opposed to those
who have contracted to provide services through an agency with its own
established mission statement and methods) can choose their own methods and
approaches, even if they're charging big bucks to do it.
What I do is helping anyone who comes across it. I don't need to collect
names or statistics. If I write an article or collect cool writings of others
and make them available for people to read when and if they want to, that is a
way to help people in which the "when" is up to them, and it doesn't take a
huge toll on me. (And usually the writing is therapeutic for me at the same
time.)
If I speak at a conference and 25 people or 150 people are in the room, maybe
only five or ten are really helped, but that's really not even between me and
them. I was doing a dance (metaphorically speaking <g>) and telling some
jokes and maybe something will become the catalyst for a change they didn't even
know they needed to make, the the area of memory or recovery or understanding
or inspiration. I agreed to perform, they chose to attend, some weren't
really listening or didn't need what I was saying, some were listening just to fi
nd something to hate, but a few maybe DID benefit.
What has really pissed me off a few times is someone coming to a forum or
discussion list and going off because others won't give her exactly what she
THINKS she wants exactly the way she thinks she needs it. I've been insulted a
dozen times or more on the charge that I probably am a big fraud, saying I'm
patient with my kids because I'm not treating some random e-mailer the way I
would treat my own child.
#1, the random e-mailer is NOT my child
#2, the random e-mailer is not a child at all, and should buck up and show
some maturity
#3, the randon e-mailer HAS a child (or maybe four)
I have NO obligation to adopt everyone who comes by and treat her as my own
child. And those who are sorely in need of the mothering of strangers might
not be emotionally prepared to be unschoolers.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Amy Childs
>>> Making decisions on whom to help, how to help them, when to helpthem, takes a huge toll on the helpers and in fact eventually
compromises their ability to help at all.<<<
>I disagree.<I take it back, add a word twice, then resubmit for review:
Making decisions on whom to help, how to help them, when to help
them, can take a huge toll on the helpers and in fact can eventually
compromise their ability to help at all.
I'll just say that it HAS compromised my own ability to help at
times. Sometimes I get so tired of hearing everyone's pain that I
just want to put my hands over my ears and run away with
a "LALALALA". Sometimes I even swear at people in my head, and then
it's pretty clear that I'm not being terribly helpful any more.
To get back to "emotional support for new unschoolers" my point is
1.the journey to unschooling can be a rough one
2.this doesn't mean it's not worth taking
3.it does mean you might need emotional help
4.and you might have to pay for it.
~Amy Childs
Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 3, 2005, at 2:49 PM, Amy Childs wrote:
being overly drained by other people- lots of her help is by writing
articles and those get read and people deal with their own reactions
to them and she isn't really part of that (although some people feel
the need, I know, to share, so they do write to her). Somewhat true
about speaking to groups, too.
And on the list, we made it as clear as we possibly could what this
list is for - it is truly intended to be for "discussion" and not for
other kinds of "support" - medical, emotional, healing from abuse,
divorce counseling, etc. Some people GET al lot of support through
that discussion and some people make connections with people and talk
offlist. That's great, but it IS a side-effect of the list - not the
list's real purpose.
I feel less protected because take a lot of phone calls and that
person-to-person stuff is FAR more heartrending and, therefore,
draining than any of my other work. I recently took my name OFF of
the Los Angeles County area because I was feeling overwhelmed and not
able to help the people I talked to as much as I had been able to
before. So now I'm a contact just for my own, smaller, county.
So - if that's what Amy meant, then I've also felt this way. Amy, we
probably just need to learn how better to balance what we do - I
don't think it is inevitable, do you?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>> Making decisions on whom to help, how to help them, when to helpI think Sandra keeps her emotional self pretty well protected from
>>>>
> them, takes a huge toll on the helpers and in fact eventually
> compromises their ability to help at all.<<<
>
>
>> I disagree.<
being overly drained by other people- lots of her help is by writing
articles and those get read and people deal with their own reactions
to them and she isn't really part of that (although some people feel
the need, I know, to share, so they do write to her). Somewhat true
about speaking to groups, too.
And on the list, we made it as clear as we possibly could what this
list is for - it is truly intended to be for "discussion" and not for
other kinds of "support" - medical, emotional, healing from abuse,
divorce counseling, etc. Some people GET al lot of support through
that discussion and some people make connections with people and talk
offlist. That's great, but it IS a side-effect of the list - not the
list's real purpose.
I feel less protected because take a lot of phone calls and that
person-to-person stuff is FAR more heartrending and, therefore,
draining than any of my other work. I recently took my name OFF of
the Los Angeles County area because I was feeling overwhelmed and not
able to help the people I talked to as much as I had been able to
before. So now I'm a contact just for my own, smaller, county.
So - if that's what Amy meant, then I've also felt this way. Amy, we
probably just need to learn how better to balance what we do - I
don't think it is inevitable, do you?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NANCY OWENS
SandraDodd@... wrote:
What has really pissed me off a few times is someone coming to a forum or
discussion list and going off because others won't give her exactly what she
THINKS she wants exactly the way she thinks she needs it. I've been insulted a
dozen times or more on the charge that I probably am a big fraud, saying I'm
patient with my kids because I'm not treating some random e-mailer the way I
would treat my own child.
#1, the random e-mailer is NOT my child
#2, the random e-mailer is not a child at all, and should buck up and show
some maturity
#3, the randon e-mailer HAS a child (or maybe four)
I have NO obligation to adopt everyone who comes by and treat her as my own
child. And those who are sorely in need of the mothering of strangers might
not be emotionally prepared to be unschoolers.
Sandra
*****People who want to be told, "That's okay. What ever works for your family... And yes! You are unschooling!" That poo-poohing kind of thing isn't helpful, isn't therapeutic, isn't working toward a better life and relationship with a child. I have not been back for long, but I do remember seeing that kind of needful, wanting, demanding post many times in the past. And Sandra's right. Many times that person would do a virtual stomp and fit throwing, calling her, Pam, Joyce, or whom ever out. In the end, that person didn't get help and others on the list who might have benefited didn't either.
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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What has really pissed me off a few times is someone coming to a forum or
discussion list and going off because others won't give her exactly what she
THINKS she wants exactly the way she thinks she needs it. I've been insulted a
dozen times or more on the charge that I probably am a big fraud, saying I'm
patient with my kids because I'm not treating some random e-mailer the way I
would treat my own child.
#1, the random e-mailer is NOT my child
#2, the random e-mailer is not a child at all, and should buck up and show
some maturity
#3, the randon e-mailer HAS a child (or maybe four)
I have NO obligation to adopt everyone who comes by and treat her as my own
child. And those who are sorely in need of the mothering of strangers might
not be emotionally prepared to be unschoolers.
Sandra
*****People who want to be told, "That's okay. What ever works for your family... And yes! You are unschooling!" That poo-poohing kind of thing isn't helpful, isn't therapeutic, isn't working toward a better life and relationship with a child. I have not been back for long, but I do remember seeing that kind of needful, wanting, demanding post many times in the past. And Sandra's right. Many times that person would do a virtual stomp and fit throwing, calling her, Pam, Joyce, or whom ever out. In the end, that person didn't get help and others on the list who might have benefited didn't either.
~Nancy
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Betsy Hill
** Right, I don't think anyone wants any of the list owner's to
sacrafice so much that they have nothing left over for their own
families. Maybe just the integration of addressing self-exploration and
healing of parental baggage. Maybe the concern is that this may seem
too overt or as a personal attack?**
I think some of us feel well qualified to discuss how unschooling works
in happy families, but not necessarily well qualified to discuss
personal transformation from unhappiness and oppression to happiness and
freedom. (We can hold up roadsigns that point out the destination, but I
don't know if we can build a railroad that carries people the whole
distance.)
Also, I wouldn't want to try to 'therapize' anyone without a licence
(even though I don't believe in the magic power of professional
licensing). (It's a little inconsistent, but that's how I feel.)
**Kind of like maybe someone with a similiar past experience of that
particular issue can share.**
OK, yes, peer to peer counseling can often be valuable *when*
experiences have been similar.
Betsy
sacrafice so much that they have nothing left over for their own
families. Maybe just the integration of addressing self-exploration and
healing of parental baggage. Maybe the concern is that this may seem
too overt or as a personal attack?**
I think some of us feel well qualified to discuss how unschooling works
in happy families, but not necessarily well qualified to discuss
personal transformation from unhappiness and oppression to happiness and
freedom. (We can hold up roadsigns that point out the destination, but I
don't know if we can build a railroad that carries people the whole
distance.)
Also, I wouldn't want to try to 'therapize' anyone without a licence
(even though I don't believe in the magic power of professional
licensing). (It's a little inconsistent, but that's how I feel.)
**Kind of like maybe someone with a similiar past experience of that
particular issue can share.**
OK, yes, peer to peer counseling can often be valuable *when*
experiences have been similar.
Betsy
Betsy Hill
**People who want to be told, "That's okay. What ever works for your
family... And yes! You are unschooling!" That poo-poohing kind of thing
isn't helpful, isn't therapeutic, isn't working toward a better life and
relationship with a child. I have not been back for long, but I do
remember seeing that kind of needful, wanting, demanding post many times
in the past. And Sandra's right. Many times that person would do a
virtual stomp and fit throwing, calling her, Pam, Joyce, or whom ever
out. In the end, that person didn't get help and others on the list who
might have benefited didn't either.**
Right. Some people (posting here in the past) clearly are craving
unconditional love and acceptance and total approval of their parenting
style. I understand that this would be a wonderful soothing balm.
But I don't think it's appropriate for this list to dispense
unconditional approval.
The list might express the idea -- "Yes, we all have bad days and
sometimes say things we regret" but no one is going to get the message
"Your parenting is fine the way it is and we will never ask you to
improve it." (Not if they came here posting about conflict with their
children and tears and punishment. I think people who ask for help
shouldn't be surprised at the implication that they need help and that
other people believe they have ideas that might improve on their current
behavior.)
Betsy
family... And yes! You are unschooling!" That poo-poohing kind of thing
isn't helpful, isn't therapeutic, isn't working toward a better life and
relationship with a child. I have not been back for long, but I do
remember seeing that kind of needful, wanting, demanding post many times
in the past. And Sandra's right. Many times that person would do a
virtual stomp and fit throwing, calling her, Pam, Joyce, or whom ever
out. In the end, that person didn't get help and others on the list who
might have benefited didn't either.**
Right. Some people (posting here in the past) clearly are craving
unconditional love and acceptance and total approval of their parenting
style. I understand that this would be a wonderful soothing balm.
But I don't think it's appropriate for this list to dispense
unconditional approval.
The list might express the idea -- "Yes, we all have bad days and
sometimes say things we regret" but no one is going to get the message
"Your parenting is fine the way it is and we will never ask you to
improve it." (Not if they came here posting about conflict with their
children and tears and punishment. I think people who ask for help
shouldn't be surprised at the implication that they need help and that
other people believe they have ideas that might improve on their current
behavior.)
Betsy
Pamela Sorooshian
I recommend the folder in the <unschooling.info/forum> message boards
called: "Support for the Child in Us."
I updated the description a little, here it is:
"A place to find people who understand the difficulties and special
challenges some of us might face because of our own childhood
experiences. A good place to talk over the issues of growing up
without parents who understood us. Help in dealing with emotions that
arise in ourselves as we unschool our children."
Does that seem to be what some are thinking would be useful?
-pam
called: "Support for the Child in Us."
I updated the description a little, here it is:
"A place to find people who understand the difficulties and special
challenges some of us might face because of our own childhood
experiences. A good place to talk over the issues of growing up
without parents who understood us. Help in dealing with emotions that
arise in ourselves as we unschool our children."
Does that seem to be what some are thinking would be useful?
-pam
On Nov 3, 2005, at 5:26 PM, Betsy Hill wrote:
> OK, yes, peer to peer counseling can often be valuable *when*
> experiences have been similar.
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Pamela Sorooshian
On Nov 3, 2005, at 5:42 PM, Betsy Hill wrote:
to every post with one of a large set of randomized statements such
as: "Don't worry, you're kids will be fine - children are resilient,"
and "As long as you're doing your best, don't beat yourself up," or
"Just do what works best for your family." And so on.
Never could figure out a way to make it work!
-pam
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> Right. Some people (posting here in the past) clearly are cravingI actually played around with creating a list that would auto-respond
> unconditional love and acceptance and total approval of their
> parenting
> style. I understand that this would be a wonderful soothing balm.
> But I don't think it's appropriate for this list to dispense
> unconditional approval.
to every post with one of a large set of randomized statements such
as: "Don't worry, you're kids will be fine - children are resilient,"
and "As long as you're doing your best, don't beat yourself up," or
"Just do what works best for your family." And so on.
Never could figure out a way to make it work!
-pam
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[email protected]
In a message dated 11/3/05 4:14:39 PM, pamsoroosh@... writes:
I've found that they might only have a few minutes to talk, or even if they
seem to have lots of time I might not, or they might get a young child needing
attention, or whatnot. I try to get them to start at the what to do
tomorrow part, unless ie's early morning. If it's morning I suggest she could to
and get the child and bring him home. If it's afternoon, I say "He doesn't
have to go back tomorrow. He never has to go back."
I recommend that she just bring him home while she researches options, and
recommend strongly that she not spend any money whatsoever for a while, and let
her know that in New Mexico she has thirty after the establishment of a
homeschool in which to register and that she could take a week or two to decide
whether she wants to establish a homeschool.
Cheering her up and giving her something really positive to do that very day
seems more helpful than letting her tell me her school problem. Because no
matter WHAT the school problem, the other realities are the same. The kid can
stay home starting right then, and she should do more research and she has
a free month and some of no legal obligations at all.
Some people want to wait a few weeks to bring the child home. If schools'
really that bad, she should bring him home while she thinks about it. An
hour spent talking about how bad school can be with someone like me won't really
help. It will just be a hour during which she's not with her child, and I'm
not with mine, and her kid is... somewhere.
Sandra
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> -=-I feel less protected because take a lot of phone calls and thatWhen I deal with people on the phone I do cut off the school stories, because
> person-to-person stuff is FAR more heartrending and, therefore,
> draining than any of my other work.-=-
>
I've found that they might only have a few minutes to talk, or even if they
seem to have lots of time I might not, or they might get a young child needing
attention, or whatnot. I try to get them to start at the what to do
tomorrow part, unless ie's early morning. If it's morning I suggest she could to
and get the child and bring him home. If it's afternoon, I say "He doesn't
have to go back tomorrow. He never has to go back."
I recommend that she just bring him home while she researches options, and
recommend strongly that she not spend any money whatsoever for a while, and let
her know that in New Mexico she has thirty after the establishment of a
homeschool in which to register and that she could take a week or two to decide
whether she wants to establish a homeschool.
Cheering her up and giving her something really positive to do that very day
seems more helpful than letting her tell me her school problem. Because no
matter WHAT the school problem, the other realities are the same. The kid can
stay home starting right then, and she should do more research and she has
a free month and some of no legal obligations at all.
Some people want to wait a few weeks to bring the child home. If schools'
really that bad, she should bring him home while she thinks about it. An
hour spent talking about how bad school can be with someone like me won't really
help. It will just be a hour during which she's not with her child, and I'm
not with mine, and her kid is... somewhere.
Sandra
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[email protected]
In a message dated 11/3/05 6:30:19 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
work at all.
-=-(We can hold up roadsigns that point out the destination, but I
don't know if we can build a railroad that carries people the whole
distance.)-=-
Somone who needs a railroad built isn't likely to get there before the kids
are grown.
Sandra
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> -=-I think some of us feel well qualified to discuss how unschooling worksBut the way it works in happy families is the only way it's really going to
> in happy families, but not necessarily well qualified to discuss
> personal transformation from unhappiness and oppression to happiness and
> freedom.-=-
>
work at all.
-=-(We can hold up roadsigns that point out the destination, but I
don't know if we can build a railroad that carries people the whole
distance.)-=-
Somone who needs a railroad built isn't likely to get there before the kids
are grown.
Sandra
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