desperately need help!
[email protected]
First a little background...
Ds will be 8 in a few weeks and has been in regular preschool, kindergarten and first grade until this past April when I pulled him out. He never had any problems and loved school until first grade when a number of issues left me feeling that his remaining there was not a possibility. I was always *extremely* involved with his education and was welcomed by the teachers and staff until first grade (new school and a long, not-nice story) and strongly felt that there was no reason I couldn't be what he needed, especially since he was so young. This is our first year without any "real school" but both he and I are pleased with our progress thus far. We are pretty easy-going about things, *lots* of flexibility, which seems to really do the trick. He is doing very well at home and the behavior and emotional issues are leveling out.
Dad and I are divorced, Dad is remarried and lives out of state. He is pretty uninvolved and blames it on being busy with work. He *is* busy and physical visits are difficult for him to schedule (I know from previous experience) but phone calls are few and far between.
That having been said, Dad is not the problem (yet.) Grandma is. Dad's mother is a teacher of 20+ years and a principal in California (which, as I understand it, has a lot of regulations for this, unlike Indiana where ds and I are.) She tests ds every time she is able to visit with him and has already stated she wants ds back in school due to socialization reasons (*NOT* academic reasons.)
She says her concerns are due to his visit out there last summer when, she says, he didn't know how to approach children (total strangers) to make friends and play. I honestly don't know what the situation was since I wasn't there, but he has no problems with that here, as demonstrated by the sheer number of kids he plays with when we go to the playgrounds or parks. (He has several structured classes/practices, etc., including choir, BMX, Cub Scouts, 4H and play dates, all of which are activities of *his* choice, as well as "helping" with the younger kids at the day care while I attend my own classes. In my opinion, his social skills are fairly well-rounded and not an issue.)
Now to the problem...
Ds is going to visit his dad over Thanksgiving. Grandma will, of course, be there. There have been recent phone conversations with both Grandma and Dad in which I have gotten the impression that there may be some "trouble" coming. Grandma is pretty serious, Dad seems to be trying to stay out of it but still keep Grandma happy (that family is *EXTREMELY* matriarchial.)
Ds and I have discussed the possible options and he strongly wants to remain at home. We have also discussed the probability of testing by Grandma (we just deal with this and go on since we can't do anything about it.)
Does *anyone* have any suggestions on how we can "bullet-proof" ds for his trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad happy but *really* doesn't want to go back to regular school.
__________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ds will be 8 in a few weeks and has been in regular preschool, kindergarten and first grade until this past April when I pulled him out. He never had any problems and loved school until first grade when a number of issues left me feeling that his remaining there was not a possibility. I was always *extremely* involved with his education and was welcomed by the teachers and staff until first grade (new school and a long, not-nice story) and strongly felt that there was no reason I couldn't be what he needed, especially since he was so young. This is our first year without any "real school" but both he and I are pleased with our progress thus far. We are pretty easy-going about things, *lots* of flexibility, which seems to really do the trick. He is doing very well at home and the behavior and emotional issues are leveling out.
Dad and I are divorced, Dad is remarried and lives out of state. He is pretty uninvolved and blames it on being busy with work. He *is* busy and physical visits are difficult for him to schedule (I know from previous experience) but phone calls are few and far between.
That having been said, Dad is not the problem (yet.) Grandma is. Dad's mother is a teacher of 20+ years and a principal in California (which, as I understand it, has a lot of regulations for this, unlike Indiana where ds and I are.) She tests ds every time she is able to visit with him and has already stated she wants ds back in school due to socialization reasons (*NOT* academic reasons.)
She says her concerns are due to his visit out there last summer when, she says, he didn't know how to approach children (total strangers) to make friends and play. I honestly don't know what the situation was since I wasn't there, but he has no problems with that here, as demonstrated by the sheer number of kids he plays with when we go to the playgrounds or parks. (He has several structured classes/practices, etc., including choir, BMX, Cub Scouts, 4H and play dates, all of which are activities of *his* choice, as well as "helping" with the younger kids at the day care while I attend my own classes. In my opinion, his social skills are fairly well-rounded and not an issue.)
Now to the problem...
Ds is going to visit his dad over Thanksgiving. Grandma will, of course, be there. There have been recent phone conversations with both Grandma and Dad in which I have gotten the impression that there may be some "trouble" coming. Grandma is pretty serious, Dad seems to be trying to stay out of it but still keep Grandma happy (that family is *EXTREMELY* matriarchial.)
Ds and I have discussed the possible options and he strongly wants to remain at home. We have also discussed the probability of testing by Grandma (we just deal with this and go on since we can't do anything about it.)
Does *anyone* have any suggestions on how we can "bullet-proof" ds for his trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad happy but *really* doesn't want to go back to regular school.
__________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<<<< That having been said, Dad is not the problem (yet.) Grandma is.
Dad's mother is a teacher of 20+ years and a principal in California (which,
as I understand it, has a lot of regulations for this, unlike Indiana where
ds and I are.) >>>>
No. California is one of the relatively easy states to Unschool in. Such
legal hoops as we are required to jump through are administrative, not
academic. (For what it's worth...I think it is being a principal, not a
Californian, that is at the root of Grandma's issue.)
<<<<<Ds and I have discussed the possible options and he strongly wants to
remain at home. We have also discussed the probability of testing by
Grandma (we just deal with this and go on since we can't do anything about
it.)>>>>>
Do you mean not to go to school, or not to go to the Thanksgiving
celebration?
If your ds is so strong in his desire to not go to the event, that would be
where I would begin my negotiations with his father. Perhaps the
Thanksgiving visit could be replaced with a more private weekend visit with
he and Dad doing something special together.
<<<< Does *anyone* have any suggestions on how we can "bullet-proof" ds for
his trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad happy
but *really* doesn't want to go back to regular school. >>>>
Are they proposing he go to school during his visit? I think you are a long
way from actually re-enrolling him in school even if Grandma is worried.
Since socialization (:P~~~~) is her concern, maybe the bullet-proofing could
be in the realm of role-playing some of the social situations that he is
likely to encounter during Thanksgiving. Or practicing talking about all his
friends and social activities that he engages in at home.
Can you go too, either to the family event or just be in town? To be around
for your ds to decompress with at the end of the day.
Is there a pattern here of an overbearing, overly controlling matriarch
seeking to recreate the negative patterns of her own mothering with her
grandchildren???? I mean if her son can't even stand up to her in advocating
for his son.......
Lots of strained grandparent relationships in the history of my and dh's
families...maybe I'm overly sensitive to the idea of a grandparent having
the utter nerve to interfere with *my kid*..(grump, grump, grump....)
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/150 - Release Date: 10/27/2005
Dad's mother is a teacher of 20+ years and a principal in California (which,
as I understand it, has a lot of regulations for this, unlike Indiana where
ds and I are.) >>>>
No. California is one of the relatively easy states to Unschool in. Such
legal hoops as we are required to jump through are administrative, not
academic. (For what it's worth...I think it is being a principal, not a
Californian, that is at the root of Grandma's issue.)
<<<<<Ds and I have discussed the possible options and he strongly wants to
remain at home. We have also discussed the probability of testing by
Grandma (we just deal with this and go on since we can't do anything about
it.)>>>>>
Do you mean not to go to school, or not to go to the Thanksgiving
celebration?
If your ds is so strong in his desire to not go to the event, that would be
where I would begin my negotiations with his father. Perhaps the
Thanksgiving visit could be replaced with a more private weekend visit with
he and Dad doing something special together.
<<<< Does *anyone* have any suggestions on how we can "bullet-proof" ds for
his trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad happy
but *really* doesn't want to go back to regular school. >>>>
Are they proposing he go to school during his visit? I think you are a long
way from actually re-enrolling him in school even if Grandma is worried.
Since socialization (:P~~~~) is her concern, maybe the bullet-proofing could
be in the realm of role-playing some of the social situations that he is
likely to encounter during Thanksgiving. Or practicing talking about all his
friends and social activities that he engages in at home.
Can you go too, either to the family event or just be in town? To be around
for your ds to decompress with at the end of the day.
Is there a pattern here of an overbearing, overly controlling matriarch
seeking to recreate the negative patterns of her own mothering with her
grandchildren???? I mean if her son can't even stand up to her in advocating
for his son.......
Lots of strained grandparent relationships in the history of my and dh's
families...maybe I'm overly sensitive to the idea of a grandparent having
the utter nerve to interfere with *my kid*..(grump, grump, grump....)
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/150 - Release Date: 10/27/2005
Pamela Sorooshian
Maybe send a wonderful photo album filled with pictures of him doing
things with other people. He can ask grandma to sit and look at
pictures with him and he can tell her all about the good times he's
having in all his group activities. The best thing he can do is
initiate conversations about the things he IS doing, so that
grandmother has less chance to initiate conversations about what he
is not doing. "Grandma, did I tell you about the xyz badge my boy
scout troop is working on?" "Can I tell you about my 4H project?"
Maybe even make a long list of all the cool things he can tell them
about while he's there - and he can take it with him.
-pam
things with other people. He can ask grandma to sit and look at
pictures with him and he can tell her all about the good times he's
having in all his group activities. The best thing he can do is
initiate conversations about the things he IS doing, so that
grandmother has less chance to initiate conversations about what he
is not doing. "Grandma, did I tell you about the xyz badge my boy
scout troop is working on?" "Can I tell you about my 4H project?"
Maybe even make a long list of all the cool things he can tell them
about while he's there - and he can take it with him.
-pam
On Oct 30, 2005, at 3:18 AM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
> Since socialization (:P~~~~) is her concern, maybe the bullet-
> proofing could
> be in the realm of role-playing some of the social situations that
> he is
> likely to encounter during Thanksgiving. Or practicing talking
> about all his
> friends and social activities that he engages in at home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/30/2005 5:22:39 AM Central Standard Time,
dezigna@... writes:
If your ds is so strong in his desire to not go to the event, that would be
where I would begin my negotiations with his father. Perhaps the
Thanksgiving visit could be replaced with a more private weekend visit with
he and Dad doing something special together.
~~~
And why the heck do we send little kids all the way across the country, when
it would be safer and easier for an adult to travel? He's too young to be
going out there. Let Dad hop the plane.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezigna@... writes:
If your ds is so strong in his desire to not go to the event, that would be
where I would begin my negotiations with his father. Perhaps the
Thanksgiving visit could be replaced with a more private weekend visit with
he and Dad doing something special together.
~~~
And why the heck do we send little kids all the way across the country, when
it would be safer and easier for an adult to travel? He's too young to be
going out there. Let Dad hop the plane.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** Does *anyone* have any suggestions on how we can "bullet-proof" ds
for his trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad
happy but *really* doesn't want to go back to regular school.**
One thing that would help a bit is to discuss with him how he feels when
she quizzes him. Then, based on what type of response he would prefer
to make, you could role-play responses that suit his style. (It might
look strange if he whipped out a 3x5 card with snappy comebacks written
on it at Thanksgiving dinner, but it might also be amusing.) "Oh, yeah,
homeschooling is great." "Mom and I do so many cool things." "Let me
tell you about dinosaur extinction" "Please pass the gravy"
(Miss Manners suggests that when you want people to drop a tactless
subject you repeat your polite reply several times, without changing the
words. Keep your tone cool and your defense seamless.)
From a control point of view, your ex-husband's opinion is the one that
matters. Talking to him beforehand about his concerns about
homeschooling and really listening to them could strengthen your
position. (I think the number 1 reason divorced dads want the kids put
in school is so that mom can get a job and dad can pay less support
dollars. I'm cynical.) I think it's important to bring up the fact
that his mother has strong opinions about education and may try to
impose them on your son. I would try to get your Ex to understand that
two adults suddenly doing an "intervention" with a boy away from his
normal environment might be pretty overwhelming. If there is going to
be a discussion where dad tries to persuade son to reconsider school, it
would be much more fair if the son and the dad talked alone, in a spirit
of give and take, not badgering or bulldozing.
Feel free to solicit your Ex's opinion of homeschooling on the phone
this week, while you just listen and say "mmmm hmmm". Then you can
discuss his key arguments with us here and we can help buttress your
counter arguments, and help you find a calm, confident way to phrase them.
Betsy
for his trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad
happy but *really* doesn't want to go back to regular school.**
One thing that would help a bit is to discuss with him how he feels when
she quizzes him. Then, based on what type of response he would prefer
to make, you could role-play responses that suit his style. (It might
look strange if he whipped out a 3x5 card with snappy comebacks written
on it at Thanksgiving dinner, but it might also be amusing.) "Oh, yeah,
homeschooling is great." "Mom and I do so many cool things." "Let me
tell you about dinosaur extinction" "Please pass the gravy"
(Miss Manners suggests that when you want people to drop a tactless
subject you repeat your polite reply several times, without changing the
words. Keep your tone cool and your defense seamless.)
From a control point of view, your ex-husband's opinion is the one that
matters. Talking to him beforehand about his concerns about
homeschooling and really listening to them could strengthen your
position. (I think the number 1 reason divorced dads want the kids put
in school is so that mom can get a job and dad can pay less support
dollars. I'm cynical.) I think it's important to bring up the fact
that his mother has strong opinions about education and may try to
impose them on your son. I would try to get your Ex to understand that
two adults suddenly doing an "intervention" with a boy away from his
normal environment might be pretty overwhelming. If there is going to
be a discussion where dad tries to persuade son to reconsider school, it
would be much more fair if the son and the dad talked alone, in a spirit
of give and take, not badgering or bulldozing.
Feel free to solicit your Ex's opinion of homeschooling on the phone
this week, while you just listen and say "mmmm hmmm". Then you can
discuss his key arguments with us here and we can help buttress your
counter arguments, and help you find a calm, confident way to phrase them.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/30/05 3:55:12 AM, leobellalace@... writes:
If you have loose custody arrangements, or joint custody, you won't be able
to make decisions unilaterally. If this uninvolvement is sufficient for you
to subtly arrange for full custody or sufficient majority-custody (different
states are different ways), you should do that now, while it's all quiet and not
antagonistic.
-=-Ds and I have discussed the possible options and he strongly wants to
remain at home. -=-
Again, depending on your custody agreement, maybe he doesn't have to go.
Maybe he does have to go.
A disagreeing ex spouse is one thing that no amount of philosophy can get
around. You might not be able to unschool (or even homeschool) because of that.
-=-We have also discussed the probability of testing by Grandma (we just deal
with this and go on since we can't do anything about it.)
-=-
As he gets older he might get braver about snappy comebacks. He could ask
her questions too, to help her see that it's not normal conversation to ask
people questions like what's 10% of 200. You might prepare him with questions
to ask, and partly he might do a preliminary conversational strike and ask her
about her childhood, or where she's lived, or other things that can get them
talking and not wait for her to lamely quiz him.
-=-Does *anyone* have any suggestions on how we can "bullet-proof" ds for his
trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad happy but
*really* doesn't want to go back to regular school.-=-
You might tell his dad that if there's too much irritating examination that
he won't want to visit there anymore, and that visits should be happy and fun,
not interrogations or trials.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Dad and I are divorced, Dad is remarried and lives out of state. He is------------------------------------------------
> pretty uninvolved and blames it on being busy with work.
>
If you have loose custody arrangements, or joint custody, you won't be able
to make decisions unilaterally. If this uninvolvement is sufficient for you
to subtly arrange for full custody or sufficient majority-custody (different
states are different ways), you should do that now, while it's all quiet and not
antagonistic.
-=-Ds and I have discussed the possible options and he strongly wants to
remain at home. -=-
Again, depending on your custody agreement, maybe he doesn't have to go.
Maybe he does have to go.
A disagreeing ex spouse is one thing that no amount of philosophy can get
around. You might not be able to unschool (or even homeschool) because of that.
-=-We have also discussed the probability of testing by Grandma (we just deal
with this and go on since we can't do anything about it.)
-=-
As he gets older he might get braver about snappy comebacks. He could ask
her questions too, to help her see that it's not normal conversation to ask
people questions like what's 10% of 200. You might prepare him with questions
to ask, and partly he might do a preliminary conversational strike and ask her
about her childhood, or where she's lived, or other things that can get them
talking and not wait for her to lamely quiz him.
-=-Does *anyone* have any suggestions on how we can "bullet-proof" ds for his
trip in a few weeks? He wants very much to make Grandma and Dad happy but
*really* doesn't want to go back to regular school.-=-
You might tell his dad that if there's too much irritating examination that
he won't want to visit there anymore, and that visits should be happy and fun,
not interrogations or trials.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I wasn't clear on this part - Ds still adores visiting, although the visits only happen a couple times a year. He just doesn't want to have to go back to regular school. There was a suggestion that I go with him or be around for support reasons but, unfortunately, even if I were there, ds would not be permitted to spend any of their visit around me - this is one of the few power issues I have chosen not to argue as his visits only occur a couple times a year and are usually in another part of the country. I call him every other day or so to check on him - it used to be every day but this past summer he told me that he was big enough that every other day was fine... (oh, my baby's growing up... :~)
Dad is coming on the plane to get him, then they are flying back for a week, then they bring him back. Grandma has asked several times if I will allow ds to fly alone but I have refused each time due to ds' age (7) - they are not happy because it increases their costs (3 round trip tickets instead of 1) but I quietly explained that either he would be picked up and brought back or he wouldn't go.
Dad and Grandma won't put him in school during the week he is there - Grandma is a teacher/principal and will "assess" ds, then use her results to nag Dad into doing what Grandma wants done. (My opinion based on past experience - It is basically more time/trouble for Dad to bother with during the 11 months he doesn't see him, but Grandma is very much the ruler in that family. If I can keep Grandma placated, nothing will come of this.
<snip> ...Is there a pattern here of an overbearing, overly controlling matriarch
seeking to recreate the negative patterns of her own mothering with her grandchildren????
I mean if her son can't even stand up to her in advocating for his son.......
ABSOLUTELY! This control-attitude has been an issue since the day he told her we were getting married so I don't see much hope of him standing up to her. He won't do anything that is more trouble for him, though, if he can help it.
Ds lives with me, but Dad shares legal custody, meaning that he gets a say in major decisions. Changing this would turn into a *HUGE* fight, but Dad doesn't usually show much interest in being involved (not a problem as far as I see it!) so I think just getting him to not fuss is the easiest and fastest course.
For *their* peace of mind, I am not completely refusing to consider their concerns - I *am* open to schooling (sort of - it's based on ds and his wishes) and I told Dad (and Grandma) that in the past. Both agreed that ds was not to go back to his previous school, both strongly agreed that the local Montessori school would be great, however... When they found out they would be expected to pay his tuition (more than my rent each month) I didn't hear too much for a while... LOL! (Is it mean to laugh about that?)
__________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dad is coming on the plane to get him, then they are flying back for a week, then they bring him back. Grandma has asked several times if I will allow ds to fly alone but I have refused each time due to ds' age (7) - they are not happy because it increases their costs (3 round trip tickets instead of 1) but I quietly explained that either he would be picked up and brought back or he wouldn't go.
Dad and Grandma won't put him in school during the week he is there - Grandma is a teacher/principal and will "assess" ds, then use her results to nag Dad into doing what Grandma wants done. (My opinion based on past experience - It is basically more time/trouble for Dad to bother with during the 11 months he doesn't see him, but Grandma is very much the ruler in that family. If I can keep Grandma placated, nothing will come of this.
<snip> ...Is there a pattern here of an overbearing, overly controlling matriarch
seeking to recreate the negative patterns of her own mothering with her grandchildren????
I mean if her son can't even stand up to her in advocating for his son.......
ABSOLUTELY! This control-attitude has been an issue since the day he told her we were getting married so I don't see much hope of him standing up to her. He won't do anything that is more trouble for him, though, if he can help it.
Ds lives with me, but Dad shares legal custody, meaning that he gets a say in major decisions. Changing this would turn into a *HUGE* fight, but Dad doesn't usually show much interest in being involved (not a problem as far as I see it!) so I think just getting him to not fuss is the easiest and fastest course.
For *their* peace of mind, I am not completely refusing to consider their concerns - I *am* open to schooling (sort of - it's based on ds and his wishes) and I told Dad (and Grandma) that in the past. Both agreed that ds was not to go back to his previous school, both strongly agreed that the local Montessori school would be great, however... When they found out they would be expected to pay his tuition (more than my rent each month) I didn't hear too much for a while... LOL! (Is it mean to laugh about that?)
__________________________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], leobellalace@n... wrote:
children under age 10 to board an aircraft. So that is even more ammo
should the question arise again.
--Deb
> Dad is coming on the plane to get him, then they are flying back forActually, since 9/11 some airlines will not allow unaccompanied
>a week, then they bring him back. Grandma has asked several times if
>I will allow ds to fly alone but I have refused each time due to ds'
>age (7) - they are not happy because it increases their costs (3
>round trip tickets instead of 1) but I quietly explained that either
>he would be picked up and brought back or he wouldn't go.
children under age 10 to board an aircraft. So that is even more ammo
should the question arise again.
--Deb