Fw: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Detoxing
Heather Woodward
As for doing things like climbing on the employee ladders...my son
still does that, at age 9. He always comes down when I ask now
though (not without protest)...I think for some kids, its just too
tempting. Maybe if you see something like that try to distract him,
don't go down the aisle, maybe really get into talking about it, what
its used for, talk to him about why he can't be on it. For me, those
situations kind of suck, because I feel like I'm forced to enforce
the store's rule or get yelled at by some salesperson, when very
often their fears are unfounded (would your son *really* get hurt by
climbing up a couple of steps, and then down, with you watching,
keeping him safe? Probably not, and yet I know I feel like I'm
letting my son do "bad" if I allow it.) We got yelled at (well, in a
very singsongy polite way)by the lady at the shoestore in the mall
the other day. Seamus was trying on shoes, and was running up and
down the (carpeted, empty,short)aisle we were in, to see if the
shoes would fall off when he ran (they did). "No running, i dont
want you to get hurt"...i said "oh he's just testing out his
shoes" "I know, but i dont want him to get hurt"...there was zero
chance of him getting hurt, but yet we were still reprimanded. So i
can see how a kid might not fully buy into WHY he can't do
something, because oftentimes there isnt a real good reason behind
it.
I can relate to this. Sometimes I think my kids are wild. They are the ones
that climb all the trees in the park and play very unconventionally on the
playground - and don't wear shoes ;-) Usually, they are climbing and
playing - and everything is a game - even in stores. There are times when I
am good at not stressing about it - but others that I do get stressed - and
I would say my biggest flaw in this area in inconsistency.
We had an experience in Wal-Mart - where my son likes to sit/lay on that
bottom rack of the cart(where you can put big things...such as cases of
water. etc. Usually, its ok - I am sure there may be kids who could get
hurt, but we are usually very careful. We were told be the manager to have
him get out. We have been "spoken too" at Home Depot for our children
sitting on that really big, long cart used for carrying large pieces of wood
etc.
I would say that my kids are certainly exuberant. I can take any of them
alone and they are great - but put them all together and although I would
never say they were "bad" but they don't behave quietly all the time. Even
at the library we go through the "library voice" discussion before we get in
there, but they have this tree play fort area in the kids section and I am
sure that kids are meant to go up there and quietly read. Well, my kids make
elaborate stories with the stuffed animals who end up leaping out of the
tree tops. Luckily we have a nice, kid friendly librarian.
My fear has always been that I am too easy-going with these things - and
will they grow up? I assume that by 16 or so the animal throwing from the
tree tops at the library will stop ;-) and eventually they will no longer
want to climb up the outside of the slide and on top of the monkey bars.
Anyway - I think much of this is personality...
Heather
still does that, at age 9. He always comes down when I ask now
though (not without protest)...I think for some kids, its just too
tempting. Maybe if you see something like that try to distract him,
don't go down the aisle, maybe really get into talking about it, what
its used for, talk to him about why he can't be on it. For me, those
situations kind of suck, because I feel like I'm forced to enforce
the store's rule or get yelled at by some salesperson, when very
often their fears are unfounded (would your son *really* get hurt by
climbing up a couple of steps, and then down, with you watching,
keeping him safe? Probably not, and yet I know I feel like I'm
letting my son do "bad" if I allow it.) We got yelled at (well, in a
very singsongy polite way)by the lady at the shoestore in the mall
the other day. Seamus was trying on shoes, and was running up and
down the (carpeted, empty,short)aisle we were in, to see if the
shoes would fall off when he ran (they did). "No running, i dont
want you to get hurt"...i said "oh he's just testing out his
shoes" "I know, but i dont want him to get hurt"...there was zero
chance of him getting hurt, but yet we were still reprimanded. So i
can see how a kid might not fully buy into WHY he can't do
something, because oftentimes there isnt a real good reason behind
it.
I can relate to this. Sometimes I think my kids are wild. They are the ones
that climb all the trees in the park and play very unconventionally on the
playground - and don't wear shoes ;-) Usually, they are climbing and
playing - and everything is a game - even in stores. There are times when I
am good at not stressing about it - but others that I do get stressed - and
I would say my biggest flaw in this area in inconsistency.
We had an experience in Wal-Mart - where my son likes to sit/lay on that
bottom rack of the cart(where you can put big things...such as cases of
water. etc. Usually, its ok - I am sure there may be kids who could get
hurt, but we are usually very careful. We were told be the manager to have
him get out. We have been "spoken too" at Home Depot for our children
sitting on that really big, long cart used for carrying large pieces of wood
etc.
I would say that my kids are certainly exuberant. I can take any of them
alone and they are great - but put them all together and although I would
never say they were "bad" but they don't behave quietly all the time. Even
at the library we go through the "library voice" discussion before we get in
there, but they have this tree play fort area in the kids section and I am
sure that kids are meant to go up there and quietly read. Well, my kids make
elaborate stories with the stuffed animals who end up leaping out of the
tree tops. Luckily we have a nice, kid friendly librarian.
My fear has always been that I am too easy-going with these things - and
will they grow up? I assume that by 16 or so the animal throwing from the
tree tops at the library will stop ;-) and eventually they will no longer
want to climb up the outside of the slide and on top of the monkey bars.
Anyway - I think much of this is personality...
Heather
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/05 12:16:00 AM, bacwoodz@... writes:
"Just because" is a good enough reason in a place we don't own, though, or
that's not a public place like a playground.
If there's something I ask visitors at my house not to do, they don't need to
know whether there's a really good reason behind it, they just need to know
it's my house. A dad threatened to swat his daughter at my house once, and I
told him he wasn't going to do it here. A teen came in and started ragging
on his mother once who was here visiting with her younger (nicer) kids, and I
told him if he wanted to be mean to his mom, he needed to do it somewhere
besides my house. (He was going on about her not having given him enough money
for gasoline or something, and he was 18 and able bodied and disturbing my
peace.)
-=-
My fear has always been that I am too easy-going with these things - and
will they grow up? I assume that by 16 or so the animal throwing from the
tree tops at the library will stop ;-) and eventually they will no longer
want to climb up the outside of the slide and on top of the monkey bars.-=-
I think the guy at Walmart wants them to grow up with all their fingers
intact and operational. The torque and weight and wire and wheels down there are a
ll very much bigger and stronger than a finger. I used to let kids sit down
there if they sat cross-legged and had their hands in their laps or arms
crossed--no fingers near wheels. That was with the high-basket grocery carts,
where there was room for a kid to sit up, not the big deep Walmart things.
Kirby pulled a cart over once with Marty in the baby seat. Neither got
hurt, but I nearly had a stroke from the fright of it. Had there already been
groceries in it, he couldn't have tipped it. On the other hand... just
scary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So i------------------
> can see how a kid might not fully buy into WHY he can't do
> something, because oftentimes there isnt a real good reason behind
> it.
>
"Just because" is a good enough reason in a place we don't own, though, or
that's not a public place like a playground.
If there's something I ask visitors at my house not to do, they don't need to
know whether there's a really good reason behind it, they just need to know
it's my house. A dad threatened to swat his daughter at my house once, and I
told him he wasn't going to do it here. A teen came in and started ragging
on his mother once who was here visiting with her younger (nicer) kids, and I
told him if he wanted to be mean to his mom, he needed to do it somewhere
besides my house. (He was going on about her not having given him enough money
for gasoline or something, and he was 18 and able bodied and disturbing my
peace.)
-=-
My fear has always been that I am too easy-going with these things - and
will they grow up? I assume that by 16 or so the animal throwing from the
tree tops at the library will stop ;-) and eventually they will no longer
want to climb up the outside of the slide and on top of the monkey bars.-=-
I think the guy at Walmart wants them to grow up with all their fingers
intact and operational. The torque and weight and wire and wheels down there are a
ll very much bigger and stronger than a finger. I used to let kids sit down
there if they sat cross-legged and had their hands in their laps or arms
crossed--no fingers near wheels. That was with the high-basket grocery carts,
where there was room for a kid to sit up, not the big deep Walmart things.
Kirby pulled a cart over once with Marty in the baby seat. Neither got
hurt, but I nearly had a stroke from the fright of it. Had there already been
groceries in it, he couldn't have tipped it. On the other hand... just
scary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy Hill
** I think the guy at Walmart wants them to grow up with all their fingers
intact and operational. The torque and weight and wire and wheels down
there are a
ll very much bigger and stronger than a finger. I used to let kids sit
down
there if they sat cross-legged and had their hands in their laps or arms
crossed--no fingers near wheels. That was with the high-basket grocery
carts,
where there was room for a kid to sit up, not the big deep Walmart things.**
Good to know! We've ridden on these tempting carts at the hardware
store and I never thought about trailing fingers down under the wheels.
(I guess our flat carts often had center rails, and our son liked to
ride standing up -- different set of risks.)
BEtsy
intact and operational. The torque and weight and wire and wheels down
there are a
ll very much bigger and stronger than a finger. I used to let kids sit
down
there if they sat cross-legged and had their hands in their laps or arms
crossed--no fingers near wheels. That was with the high-basket grocery
carts,
where there was room for a kid to sit up, not the big deep Walmart things.**
Good to know! We've ridden on these tempting carts at the hardware
store and I never thought about trailing fingers down under the wheels.
(I guess our flat carts often had center rails, and our son liked to
ride standing up -- different set of risks.)
BEtsy
joanne
Well, the manager came over and was explaining about liability which I am sure that Kevin did not understand. What I did say is that there were rules in this store and this person was the boss here and needed us to get down. If I say to him that I or someone else doesn't want him tog et hurt he just replies, don't worry mom, I won't get hurt.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
queenjane555
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
THE only reason. Probably a lame reason. The reason he has to stop
doing XYZ. But i won't make him buy into it being a good reason. I
guess i've always been too much of a rebel (fighting against The Man
and all that)growing up to ever really accept "just because" as a
good enough reason. My mom used to always say "because i said so" as
an excuse not to do something. I will avoid statements like "just
because" or "because thats just the way it is" if i can, and try to
give as much info as to the reasoning of the establishment, even if
it isnt a good reason.
Katherine
>behind
>
> In a message dated 10/29/05 12:16:00 AM, bacwoodz@s... writes:
>
>
> > So i
> > can see how a kid might not fully buy into WHY he can't do
> > something, because oftentimes there isnt a real good reason
> > it.I dont think "just because" is a "real good reason"....it might be
> >
> ------------------
>
> "Just because" is a good enough reason in a place we don't own,
>though, or that's not a public place like a playground.
THE only reason. Probably a lame reason. The reason he has to stop
doing XYZ. But i won't make him buy into it being a good reason. I
guess i've always been too much of a rebel (fighting against The Man
and all that)growing up to ever really accept "just because" as a
good enough reason. My mom used to always say "because i said so" as
an excuse not to do something. I will avoid statements like "just
because" or "because thats just the way it is" if i can, and try to
give as much info as to the reasoning of the establishment, even if
it isnt a good reason.
Katherine
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/29/05 10:02:22 AM, queenjane555@... writes:
the "just because" of which I speak.
That IS a good reason.
"It's mine and I don't want you to treat it that way" is a pretty good
reason.
-=- I will avoid statements like "just
because" or "because thats just the way it is" if i can, and try to
give as much info as to the reasoning of the establishment, even if
it isnt a good reason.-=-
I do too, but I don't bend over backwards to convince my child that someone
needs reasons WE understand to put conditions on the use of her own private
home or property. If grandma doesn't want french fries and ketchup in the back
seat, it's just because. Any kid not old enough to figure that out on his
own is too young to have an open ketchup container.
At some point their social awareness curve should pass their "how come?"
stage and too much explanation is condescending.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I dont think "just because" is a "real good reason"....it might beBecause someone else owns the house/ladder/table and doesn't want you to is
> THE only reason. Probably a lame reason. The reason he has to stop
> doing XYZ. But i won't make him buy into it being a good reason.
>
the "just because" of which I speak.
That IS a good reason.
"It's mine and I don't want you to treat it that way" is a pretty good
reason.
-=- I will avoid statements like "just
because" or "because thats just the way it is" if i can, and try to
give as much info as to the reasoning of the establishment, even if
it isnt a good reason.-=-
I do too, but I don't bend over backwards to convince my child that someone
needs reasons WE understand to put conditions on the use of her own private
home or property. If grandma doesn't want french fries and ketchup in the back
seat, it's just because. Any kid not old enough to figure that out on his
own is too young to have an open ketchup container.
At some point their social awareness curve should pass their "how come?"
stage and too much explanation is condescending.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 29, 2005, at 8:14 AM, joanne wrote:
know you. The ladder is only for people who work here."
If he's not convinced that the store manager is being reasonable,
so what? The store manager might or might NOT be reasonable and your
son might be disappointed. Find something else to offer and empathize
with him.
The store ladder isn't yours and it isn't there for customers to
climb on and you knew that. He needs YOU to let him know stuff like
that. You let him do it, even though you surely must have known that
if the store manager saw him that he would not like it. If he REALLY
wanted to, you could have found the store manager and asked, "We
REALLY want to go up that ladder in aisle 4, so I wanted to see if we
could get your permission - I'd stand right there and hold his hand
and we'll be super careful. Do you think that would be all right just
this once?" You never know - some managers would say okay and others
would say no way.
Same with the fire truck that somebody else wrote about - we've had
firefighters bring their trucks TO parks and put up the big tall
ladder and actually let people go up as high as they wanted - even
very young kids - 3 and 4 year olds. It was arranged in advance.
Take advantage of serendipitous opportunities and arrange cool
experiences - that's all good. But you don't have some kind of
"right" to create a climbing experience for your son in a grocery
store using their ladder.
About the running - a kid who runs and has to be chased is not safe
in a store with doors that open to parking lots. You're responsible
for his safety, so if you can't find a way for him to be safe, then
don't take him to stores or anyplace where his running might be
unsafe for him or others.
I get really irritated at people who aren't keeping their kids safe -
yesterday we saw a dad and a really young boy - maybe 4, not older,
crossing the street at a very very busy large intersection with left
turn arrows and many lanes in each direction. The boy was on a
scooter and was out ahead of the dad. The dad REALLY needed to hold
that kid back with him - he was so short and hard to see and a car
turning left came within inches of running him down. The dad then
YELLED at the kid to watch out. But it was the dad's responsibility
to have seen in advance that the child needed to have his hand held.
His letting his son do something dangerous was rude to US - we had to
sit there and watch as he was really very nearly run down. It was
awful. It could have been even more awful. It is just really rude to
other people.
I don't really care if that kid had an aversion to having his hand
held. If he can't be kept safe, he shouldn't be out there. Same with
a kid running and having to be chased in a store or elsewhere.
Unexpected things happen - I'm not saying that every time a kid takes
off that means a parent should no longer ever take them out in
public. But if you KNOW you have a child who runs and has to be
chased, it is irresponsible to take them places where they might get
hurt or hurt someone else.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Well, the manager came over and was explaining about liabilityThen you say, "I know you don't think you'll get hurt, but they don't
> which I am sure that Kevin did not understand. What I did say is
> that there were rules in this store and this person was the boss
> here and needed us to get down. If I say to him that I or someone
> else doesn't want him tog et hurt he just replies, don't worry mom,
> I won't get hurt.
know you. The ladder is only for people who work here."
If he's not convinced that the store manager is being reasonable,
so what? The store manager might or might NOT be reasonable and your
son might be disappointed. Find something else to offer and empathize
with him.
The store ladder isn't yours and it isn't there for customers to
climb on and you knew that. He needs YOU to let him know stuff like
that. You let him do it, even though you surely must have known that
if the store manager saw him that he would not like it. If he REALLY
wanted to, you could have found the store manager and asked, "We
REALLY want to go up that ladder in aisle 4, so I wanted to see if we
could get your permission - I'd stand right there and hold his hand
and we'll be super careful. Do you think that would be all right just
this once?" You never know - some managers would say okay and others
would say no way.
Same with the fire truck that somebody else wrote about - we've had
firefighters bring their trucks TO parks and put up the big tall
ladder and actually let people go up as high as they wanted - even
very young kids - 3 and 4 year olds. It was arranged in advance.
Take advantage of serendipitous opportunities and arrange cool
experiences - that's all good. But you don't have some kind of
"right" to create a climbing experience for your son in a grocery
store using their ladder.
About the running - a kid who runs and has to be chased is not safe
in a store with doors that open to parking lots. You're responsible
for his safety, so if you can't find a way for him to be safe, then
don't take him to stores or anyplace where his running might be
unsafe for him or others.
I get really irritated at people who aren't keeping their kids safe -
yesterday we saw a dad and a really young boy - maybe 4, not older,
crossing the street at a very very busy large intersection with left
turn arrows and many lanes in each direction. The boy was on a
scooter and was out ahead of the dad. The dad REALLY needed to hold
that kid back with him - he was so short and hard to see and a car
turning left came within inches of running him down. The dad then
YELLED at the kid to watch out. But it was the dad's responsibility
to have seen in advance that the child needed to have his hand held.
His letting his son do something dangerous was rude to US - we had to
sit there and watch as he was really very nearly run down. It was
awful. It could have been even more awful. It is just really rude to
other people.
I don't really care if that kid had an aversion to having his hand
held. If he can't be kept safe, he shouldn't be out there. Same with
a kid running and having to be chased in a store or elsewhere.
Unexpected things happen - I'm not saying that every time a kid takes
off that means a parent should no longer ever take them out in
public. But if you KNOW you have a child who runs and has to be
chased, it is irresponsible to take them places where they might get
hurt or hurt someone else.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]